rosaceae Geum talbotianum A Tasmanian alpine flower/herb that is native and rare is all that I can find that might be worth a shot but it looks an unlikely one.

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http://www.utas.edu.au/docs/plant_science/field_botany/species/dicots/rosasp/geumtalb.html

I think they are more native raspberries but wouldn't this make for an interesting flower hybrid?

Here is a link that might be useful: rubus gunnianus

It will take someone with more rose knowledge than I to properly answer your question nadia, but i can give you some general basics. I breed irises and have studied animal genetics at Uni.
Diploid roses have 14 chromosomes = 7 pairs. If you have a species rose (not just an old variety) and you cross it, the genes on each chromosome in a pair (one chromosome from dad, one from mum)will be virtually identical, so you can be almost certain you have an identical rose to the parent. That's simplistic because when we start to discuss variation, natural selection, mutation, sections of chromosome crossing .....it gets more complex.
This sameness of the pairs is called homozygosity. The plants are homozygous - having virtually identical genes and producing a zygote with identical pairs of chromosomes.
Hybrids are heterozygous. The genes on the chromosomes of Mum will differ by a lot or maybe only a little, from those of Dad. By inbreeding you can bring about a state where the plants (and animals) approach homozygosity again - this type of plant is not a species, but it's close relatives form a 'strain' or, in the case of animals, a 'breed' (chihuahuas are the same species as labradors, but quite genetically different due to years of selection for type).

SO - when you cross any two roses that are not of the same original species, then you will Always get a different rose. (just as all your kids are genetically different unless they are identical twins). All the seeds in the pod will be different.
Their genotypes will be different, but they can still look virtually identical. The more heterozygous the parent plant, the more variety you will get.

Some plants are tetraploid (some modern daylilies and most modern tall bearded irises for instance). When there are 4 of one chromosome instead of a pair ( as in the case of diploid plants) then the amount of variety is incredible.

If you cross 2 known species plants - where both plants are homozygous, but carrying different genes because they are different species - then the offspring will be fully heterozygous, with each pair being made up of one chromosome from mum and one from dad. These plants are very predictable in type, as they will always have virtually the same genetic make up. These are your F1 (first cross) hybrids. When you cross with each other, you will get lots of variety, with some appearing to "revert" back to the parent type. These are the F2s. Breeding of F1's from species, or from fairly homozygous strains of, say, pansies or petunias, gives us the fairly consistant types of annuals that they offer us each year in punnets. These are often big robust plants, displaying hybrid vigour. Their offspring will generally be a disappointing mixed batch.

Hope that helps a bit. It's just an outline. Here is a page specifically about roses, that i always enjoy visiting.
Cheers, Jan

Here is a link that might be useful: Science of breeding roses

Thanks Jan. I started a reply to Nadia, but the ideas are so wild (no offence, no offence) that I gave up. I ended up suggesting that she try growing some seeds as a starter, decide what she wants, and move step by step towards it. Then I discovered from "her page", that Nadia lives in the United States (of America I presume). There's plenty of expertise there I thought, and the whole post got lost somehow.

Thank you for your important input for a layman, and that link to Lammerts. I breed roses in a practical sense, and having had some success there, seek more basic knowledge from my guru Edward LeGrice, through his book 'Rose Growing Complete'. His work with amethyst and tan colourings have inspired me to try and emulate him. Perhaps I'm about ready to try and follow up on his creations. I am chasing brown, with little or no success.

And I thought it was all to do with the birds and the bees LOL.

I only know a bit about Orchids and planting out dozens of little plants out of the bottle the seeds were raised in and getting maybe one or two that are true to type and others, at times, better and many not much good at all.

I do admire the breeders with the patience to go on year after year looking for the Perfect Something from all their work and time .

Marion

Actually Lozza Nadia live in Brisbane somewhere, well thats the impression I got from her posting under "Roundup and Roses". Maybe she tried to Edit her page again and had trouble doing it as I have read on the other Forums that the Members Page does not recognize any country except USA we have even been told to pick a USA zone as you cannot add a AU Post code, but I do remember on another Forum someone has finally worked it out but cannot remember which one off hand .

I think you people are marvelous when it comes to seeds, breeding and such I was always interested in those kind of things when young but the opportunities were not there for me then to even have a go. I also would love to see a Brown Rose Lozza and as much as I like my Julia's Rose it goes pink all to quick. But I am waiting for the True Blue will it ever happen I wonder, probably but not in my lifetime. Good luck with your Brown Rose..Cheers.MM.

I hadn't properly read nadia's last posting. Nadia - you shouldn't be thinking further than crossing closely related species. There are only rare instances of closely related genera crossing, and the only ones i can think of were revised, and their genera names changed.
There are cases where people THINK they have succeeded, but if the pollenation is done properly, you must eliminate any possibility of the pod parent selfing pollenating, anf fooling you into thinking you have a species or genera cross.
You might be interested in looking in at the hybridising forum on the US garden web, but there are some weird and whacky ideas tossed round there from time to time. Question everything you read.
Cheers, Jan

Nadia, I'm by no means an expert in hybridising, but from what I've learned I'll gladly share some interesting notes:

- Rose mosaic virus was introduced by someone who was trying to hybridise roses with apples, to see what will happen. In other words, hybridising between different subfamilies and genus of the whole Rosaceae family (plum, peach, almond, apple, strawberry ...) can introduce some unwanted consequences, like new diseases ...

- Some hybridizers in their programmes go in exploring new possibilities, and that's obviously good thing: Rosa Rugosa is especially used nowadays because it's extremely hardy and disease resistant.

- Some rose hybrids, namely first generation hybrids ('old roses, species roses and other spring flowering roses' x 'repeat flowering varieties') you will never see in your local nursery, because they've been used as a genetic pool to hybridize second and third generation of hybrids that are remontant and very much like old roses in their charm and fragrance (see David Austin, Nostalgia roses, etc.)

- It's interesting to observe that it's very hard to hybridize purely white rose; a very carefully chosen genetic pool must be set up first, obviously.

- I'm particularly interested to see some beautiful new remontant rose that resembles 'Leda' or 'Hebe's Lip' -- purely white with dark red outer rim; I find these roses to be very fascinating. Lozza, can you tell us how to hybridize such rose? To keep the charm and fragrance of a Damsk and the remontancy of some newer variety ...
Thanks!

- Tom

Yes, Misty Morn I had to use a US postal code to login and don't know how to fix it.

Thanks Sparaxis that kind of fixes up the holes in my knowledge. Its a lot more complex than I thought. Yep the ideas were wild Lozza, for where we are at in rose breeding. After I thought about it a bit, I realised they were a little out there. I was surprised to get a response.

Thankyou for the patient expertise of the people on this message board. A bit more reading and I realised from the Australian breeder that he plants so many thousands of roses and it takes years just to develop a hybrid worth having that I gather its something rather scientific and takes consuming patience (the guy who put out some of his roses in the True Blue series of roses, Federation year)....Jack Thompson? The effort of it all was probably enough to quell my interest. Yes, there are some hybridising associations of the hobby kind which you could learn much from that might be interesting to look at.

Can you believe that I have no idea of what a rose hip looks like. Just a lot of curiousity. 3 months ago I had grass, no roses at all. Just lilly pillies with a fungal infection.

There are some great stories with rose breeding: like the guy that spent ten years looking to breed a yellow rose and then just found one growing. The story of tulips and the interestingly coloured flowers that resulted from the mosaic virus is another great one....

An idea that I came across was that stripey roses might be an offshoot of the mosaic virus - but I don't know how they came to that guess.

I did come across the Australian Rose Hybridizers Society an offshoot of one of the state rose growing associations with a little how to book and monthly magazines and I think that might be the place to start getting the basic understandings down. Lozza I think its the same state you hail from so I gather you may be involved in that in some way or have knowledge of it? Alas you cannot order online.

It would be wonderful to cross some of the uniqueness of Australian species into roses - but rather a quantum leap. I'm a little hesitant about the blue rose they are breeding through genetic modifications due to the rampant nature of that method. You'd really want to know what you were doing and I'm not sure scientists really do at the moment. Not that I want to get into a GM discussion.

Tom - some interesting notes I'll have to follow up on there. I'd never have guessed it was hard to hybridize a white rose. Wouldn't you think they were a little more prolific in nature

It surely makes me appreciate all the work that went into creating the little rose plants in my garden.

Nadia, that's George Thompson. He is one of a group of hybridisers producing "True Blue Roses", an agency set up by Maureen Ross to market Australian bred roses. My rose breeding efforts are way too small to be involved with that group. The Australian Rose Breeder's Association is the organisation that attempts to represent rose breeders as a group. A quarterly newsletter is published for members, in which ideas and experiences are exchanged.

I think we might consider the nomenclature, is it taxonomy (?), of the rose genus, so we may better understand each other when discussing breeding. I am not a botanist, or scientist in any way, shape, or form, but it might be necessary to be sure about the relationships certain terms have to each other. For example, in roses a species is not a genus, a hybrid is not a species, but these are specific terms relating to sub-divisions of the rose family, and which help us to understand better the relationship of one rose to another.

The hierarchy of roses begins with the 'Family' Rosaceae. Many important fruits belong to this family, such as:
apples, pears, plums, peaches, strawberries, and raspberries, as well as roses. The distinction from these other plants is managed by assigning an indicator to each sub-family member, 'R' for the genus Rosa, 'M' for the genus Malus (apples, crabapples, e.g.). In the West, in the botanical classification of roses, begins with the Genus Rosa L. ('L' for Linnaeus, the botanist who invented the hierarchy of plants). The Genus Rosa L. is followed by 4 Sub-Genera, and within each Sub-Genus is one, or many species. So we have the Sub-Genus Platyrhoden, which contains only the "flaky-bark" roses, with its Species, R.roxburghii. The most important Sub-Genus is Eurosa, which does mean "all the other roses", but also refers to the fact that, whereas the other 3 Sub-Genera have thorny hips, roses of Eurosa Sub-Genus have smooth or hairy hips.

So we have the Genus Rosa and four Sub-Genera, the first three each having only one associated species. The remaining Sub-Genus, Eurosa, has been divided into 10 separate Sections, roses of each of which have unique characteristics. Within each Section of the Sub-Genus Eurosa of the Genus Rosa L. of the Family Rosaceae, there is a "founding species" (my term). For example, in the Bracteatae Section, the founding species is R.bracteata. In the Gallicanae Section, it is R.gallica. In the Lavigatae Section, it is R.lavigatae, which has a Hybrid species R.x anemonoides ('x' for naturally occuring Hybrid Species). The most prolific Section is the Indicae Section. One founding species, R.chinensis spontanea, but some species have one or several varieties, e.g, R.chinensis spontanea (the China Rose), R.chinensis mutabilis, R.chinensis viridiflora. This may also be noted as R.chinensis: var. viridiflora. I am unsure as to when such distinction might be necessary. Equally unsure am I as to the existence today of R.chinensis spontanea. It...

Oh, now that makes the whole rosaceae family tree thing a little bit clearer. I think all the various sale categories make things confusing a little, because I've come across different divisions/categories for roses depending on who's itemising them: but then I guess that's the nature of it. The alphabetical list of Treloars is about all I can handle *S*. Well yes I understand floribundas, climbers and groundcovers Laugh but a bit of botanical knowledge goes a long way.

Lozza, its great to tap into people who know a bit more than I do. Its even better when I don't have enough knowledge to ask the right questions and get them answered anyway *S*.

Hi Nadia..Have a look at the link below about Members Info seems others are having the same problem.
The GW site has not been the same since to was sold to iVillage, so many mistakes.
It should help you to get out of the living in the United States...Cheers..MM.

Here is a link that might be useful: Info Problems..