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gregaryb

Importation of seeds into Australia

gregaryb
18 years ago

This of relevance to those Australians who are actively engaging in importation of exotic seeds via these forums and the mail.

However there are also relevant lessons for non-Australians who are busy importing Australian native seeds into their countries.

------------------------------------------------------------

The Australian Government has prohibited importation of 3,335 potential weeds to protect the nation's agriculture and environment.

Conservation Minister Senator Ian Macdonald said today the removal of the potential weeds marked the end of the first stage of a major project to remove whole groups (genera) from the list of permitted seed imports.

"This is an important next step in protecting Australia's agriculture and environment from potential weeds," Senator Macdonald said.

The permitted seeds list (Schedule 5 of the Quarantine Proclamation 1998) has been amended to reflect the completion of stage one of the review. The Australian Government announced earlier this year that Biosecurity Australia would accelerate the review of the permitted seeds list.

Biosecurity Australia consulted widely on a list of 4,000 species recorded as weeds overseas and not considered present in Australia. The Cooperative Research Centre for Australian Weed Management prepared the list for the Worldwide Fund for Nature.

Following the consultations, Biosecurity Australia determined 3,335 species on the list were not present in Australia. Australia will permit imports of these species only if a weed risk assessment determines their weed potential in Australia is low.

"The review will enhance Australia's favourable pest and disease status by ensuring Australia does not import known weedy species," Senator Macdonald said.

"The second stage of the review will remove genus-level listings from the permitted seeds list (Schedule 5 of the Quarantine Proclamation 1998). This means Australia will target individual plants rather than groups of plants."

Biosecurity Australia is preparing information for consultations during the second stage of the review.

The second stage of the review will involve extensive consultation with over 400 stakeholders including the WWF, Australian Seeds Federation and the CRC for Australian Weed Management, as well as research to determine =

which species in over 2900 currently permitted genera are present and/or commonly traded in Australia.

"I expect the complete review of the permitted genera to be finalised by the end of next year," Senator Macdonald said.

Further information on the permitted seeds list review is available on the web site www.daff.gov.au/biosecurityaustralia

Comments (47)

  • baldric
    18 years ago

    hello greg

    i am a new member. i have been enthusiastic about cacti and succulents for many years , however it is only recently that i have come out of my shell to start collecting. i see on ebay seeds and plants for sale overseas . i am reluctant to buy as i am conscious of quarantine laws and do not wish to import something that would be a pest or dangerous . how can i know whether that which is on sale is safe and legal to import. if i buy and the plant arrives in aust does it automatically get quarantened /destroyed or delivered. i am most anxious to iport the odd plant or seed . how do i go about it. the schedule in the proclamation you refered to might not give me the name of the plant or at least i may not recognize the name being such a novice. can you help me

  • baldric
    18 years ago

    Thank you greg for your email . It is very helpful

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  • grassface
    18 years ago

    I cant fugure it out at all. I ordered some seeds from South Africa, 2 packets get allowed in, one doesnt, they get confiscated and I lose out yet these seeds were not a prohibited species. Why is the AQIS website so user unfriendly?

  • thefof Zone 8/9 UK
    18 years ago

    The Federal Gov., in their 'Infinite Wisdom', have decided to make it almost impossible to import any plants into Australia, unless you are willing to pay a small fortune in fees and licences. This is going to totally kill any chance nurseries or enthusiasts have of getting plants in from abroad, legally. This is only going to lead to more attempts to smuggle plants in.

    On top of this, AQIS have no idea what they are doing. I have found out that they have no idea of what they are dealing with. A guy I know, last year imported, quite legally, a large quantity of Ariocarpus from a Nursery in Malta. All the paperwork was in order, but while they took their time to check the papers, they put the plants in the cold room, along with the imported 'fresh' flowers. He didn't find out about this for nearly 3 weeks. Nearly half of the plants failed to recover - they basically froze to death.

    At the moment most cactus seed are still OK, but I doubt if that will last for very long. They appear to be heading in the direction of "if it is exotic, it must constitute a threat. Therefore ban it!"

    Fof

  • RugbyLeagueRocks
    18 years ago

    IMO AQIS are a pain in the F***ing arse. Its a money making scam!
    All this crap about threats to the environment! What about all the Watsonia I see around, are they clearing that!
    It this rate Australia will end up becoming 100% desert with all these bans on plants!

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    What is the difference between RugbyLeagueRocks and a computer?
    You only have to punch the information into a computer once!

    The high fees are no doubt a deterent to dip SH#TS like you from making conservation workers, land managers and farmers lives more of a misery than they already are.

    And the answer is YES. Watsonia is regularly cleared from public land and is required (by law) to be cleared from private land in Victoria. Councils, Melbourne Water, Vic DSE, Vic DPI, Parks Victoria and many other government bodies are particularly active in erradicating this and the countless other exotic weeds from public land. And I am regularly involved in perforing the spray work.

    If you pulled your head out of your AR$E and looked beyond your backyard you would find that Australia is far from being a desert even without all the exotic crap that imbiciles like you want to bring into the country.

    If you like these exotic menaces so much and hate Australian plants so much then why don't you F$#K off overseas and enjoy (and don't let the door hit your a$#se on the way out).

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    It is exactly this (RugbyLeagueSocks) sort of ecological ineptitude and breath taking ignorance of the Australian environment that has brought us rabbits, foxes, cane toads, Lantana, Salvinia and rust fungi, to name just a few.

    It is rapidly bringing this country to the brink if environmental and economic ruin. To government bodies like AQIS, DPI and DNRE/DSE I say "Good on you guys sink the boot in to so called Australians like RugbyLeagueSocks".

  • thefof Zone 8/9 UK
    18 years ago

    OK Lets get some proportion hear.

    Greg you seem to consider that because I like to grow a particular family of plants, then I am anti the native bush. That I find somewhat offensive. That is totally incorrect.

    In your email to me you as good as state that the nusery trade and specialist growers were to blame for all the exotic weeds in Astralia, including "Particularly to a NSW site detailing the disaster of Prickly Pear in the 1950's.

    Facts:
    1) The prickly pear was introducted in the 18th century to create a Cochineal industry, using the Cochineal Insect which likes on Prickly Pear. An ecological disaster, but not the fault of nursery or grower. They are now a prohibited weed - I have no problems with this.

    However, this does not mean that all cacti are potential noxious weeds. Apart from the P.P. there is not one record anywhere in Australia of cacti going feral.

    All of the noxious weeds we have in Australia are the direct fault of farmers, Government Bodies, and the 'average gardener'letting them escape.

    My gripe with AQIS is the ridiculous fees that they charge for licensing, permits and quarantine. We all realise the importance of these measures, but at these prices?

    Fof

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Do you agree with the quarentine restrictions on animal importation??? All animal imports are viewed with extreme suspicion until they are PROVEN to not be habouring any diseases and that they will be appropriately contained and cared for.

    If you agree with the treatment of animal imports then it is entirely logical and about time that plant imports are treated with the same extreme suspicion (with respect to plant diseases and weediness). After all exotic plants pose an equal threat to the environment and agriculture as exotic animals e.g. aquarium fishes and our water ways.

    The only difference is that the risk that plants pose is a long term one and may not become apparent for decades, particularly in respect to weediness.

    So I am advocating that all exotic plants, not already in Australia, should be treated with suspicion until it is proven beyond doubt that they do not pose a weed or disease risk. And this should be done at the importers expense. If that results in stepping on a few toes like yours then tough.

    The human induced stress on the environment and local ecological is well beyond the point where we have the luxury of catering for exotic plant lovers and living with the occasional FU*$ ups where some of their plants escape as environmental weeds.

    Deterent fees should continue in order to discourage average nuff nuffs, who have no comprehension of what they are doing and risking, from importing anything they feel like. We need to cater for the lowest common denominator.

  • Newby2
    18 years ago

    I am a specialist grower of plants that are mostly exotic to Australia, but luckily, they constitute very little if any threat to this land. However, I do agree that control of plant imports is a very necessary evil.
    I live in the beautiful village of Mt Nebo, in a section of the ranges lying just within the Brisbane metropolitan area. Yet here, almost completely surrounded by the rainforest etc., of the enormous D'Aguilar National Park, there is a truly horrendous noxious weed problem with far too many locals quite unconcerned about it. For example quite a number of properties are infested with Madiera Vine, Anredra cordifolia.
    Too many of our residents buy properties here for the amazing views and affordable prices, yet they mostly have not a clue about environmental considerations. It has always bemused me that this region attracts 'artistic' types but not many true nature lovers.
    I support the intentions of AQIS and I hope they will be given enough funds to enable them to do their job with adequately trained personnel. It is certainly far best to keep potentially 'dangerous' plants out of new lands wherever possible.
    On the other hand I consider silly attitudes such as "any species not locally native should be eliminated" is as bad environmentally as the attitude to "allow anything into new locales."
    Only species that constitute a proven environmental threat need be eliminated. Trying to eliminate species just because they are considered locally exotic can do far more damage than help to the environment. We must be more pragmatic in our approaches to land management issues. It is a fact that some exotics DO improve the biological productivity/biodiversity of their new environment.
    The answers to such problems will lie somewhere between the two extreme views.
    Some 'exotic' natives such as the Queensland Umbrella Tree Schefflera actinophylla, MAY change some environments into more mesic ones. Is this any real environmental threat in a land that is overall becoming increasingly threatened by climate change and ever more severe droughts?
    If Watsonia (presumably the invasive hybrid Cocrosmia cocrosmiifolia) is merely a particularly capable 'species' but it is not eliminating (somewhat reducing is not biologically important) other species then we are possibly, in fact very probably, doing more environmental damage by reducing Watsonias populations. This is especially so if pesticides are being used in the process. It concerns me that too many 'environmental warriors' are reducing essential biomass.
    Also we tend to view nature from a human's far too ephemeral lifespan. Many species that currently are fairly dominant will probably be reduced by 'nature' in the not too far distant future. The larger the species biomass then the greater the chance something will evolve to eat it.
    Humans are still an immensely long way off having the capacity to manage the incredibly complex stochastic interplays of life.
    ...

  • rug13y
    17 years ago

    I think Greg Boils needs to get that pimple off his ar$e for talking nonsense. Obviously a PC do-gooder who's tongue must reach his rectum.

    His ideal Australia would be that we all must grow 'the local natives', what right have you got to suggest such cr@p?

    Like it or not, people will continue to smuggle plants into the country because of the bullsh1t red tape and 'control' by idiots like you are putting on gardeners and growers! Get real!

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Well rug13y lucky for the environment, farmers and tax payers in general you are not in a position where your opinion matters.

    Fortunately the those in a positions of power have the intellectual capacity to comprehend the threat that exotic plants can pose and respond accordingly.

    And for the record an not an advocate of people being forced to grow only local native plants. I in fact use other Australian native plants, that I know from my own experience or that of other professional in the conservation sector, are not invasive any where else in Australia, e.g. Lomandras and Lechenaultias.

    Have your cultivated roses and those exotic plants that have a proven track record of not being invasive. I.E. Plants that are not our will not impose a financial burden on farmers (and therefore consumers) and government land managers (and therefore tax payers)

    But I think that those exotic species that have a proven track record of invasiveness in Australia or overseas should not be permitted for the greater good.

    And I would also like to point out that farmers have been unfairly blamed for the current burden of environmental weeds in this thread. Sure they have been responsible for introduction of some environmental and noxious weeds is times gone by. Fortunately most of them also have the 'smarts' not repeat the mistakes of the past since their livlihood depends on it.

    The fact remains that the nursery/landscaping sector is responsible for unleashing around 70% of the several thousand environmental weed species currently in Australia. And many people in this sector do not have the 'smarts' to learn from past mistakes. They continue to make the same mistakes over and over again in pursuit of their personal fortune. Never spending any real time in the natural environment, unlike farmers and land managers, has much to do with this failure to learn.

  • range_roser
    15 years ago

    Yar, vee must preserve zee genetic purity of zee Muzher Land at all costz!!!
    Greg's rant merely proves something that I have long known to be true. There are no invasive plants in this world, only invasive people.

  • neomexi
    15 years ago

    hi, i just joined..i collect cacti in vic. and i have imported seeds. (OMFG!!..apologies for being a terrorist).

    Essentially, as most of you know and accept, AQIS is a complete and utter waste of time and resources. ;)

    the most irritating thing about aqis, customs and quarantine in general is their false guise and pseudo role of protecting australia's enviroments, ecosystems, flora and fauna. i hate to break it to them, but the majority of environments are ALREADY screwed and have been so for so many decades. and the worst species to introduce to an ecosystem in us! the irreparable damage we cause to environments far outweights that possible by any other spesies.

    In the case of cacti, and doubtless other plants as well, newly discovered species and newly developed cultivars, forms, hybrids etc. often initiate a sort of worldwide mania amongst collectors of that respective plant family in a quest to obtain a specimen of a new special very rare plant. why should australia's growers be deprived of this opportunity? because we happen to have an uptight importation dictatorship with a draconian attitude to plant imports?
    as a result of the ignorant attitude exhibited by aqis many choice species of cacti are very rare in this country and can fetch hundreds of dollard a piece. the very same plant in many countries overseas is worth not nearly as much due to often more relaxed attitude to plant importation.

    another thing i detest is aus quarantines' hypocritical actions. they declare many species of cacti 'not permitted' to import (including rather inappropriately some extremely slow groing species)
    here is a classical case study of their ignorance: Pereskia aculeata.
    this is one of the few cactus species that HAS actually become a pest species in australia in some localised areas. aqis actively discourage its cultivation in my state(and likely others too), yet, remarkably, are yet to actually declare it an illegal import. You would expect, given their reputation, to declare importation of this plant in any way shape or form illegal immediately. but NO. in fact, it is perfectly legal to import seeds and even live plants of this deemed 'invasive' species. AQIS also in their infinite wisdom had the wise, ever appropriate foresight to quickly ban all OTHER members of this genus, the vast majority of which do not pose any threat at all. as a further demonstration of their intellect, many of their pest profile propaganda documents regarding this 'weed' species contain images of a non-invasive cultivar thereof which is comparatively slow growing and poses no threat at all, effectively demonstrating an inability to differentiate between two different plants and giving a rather dubious impression on their credibility. ;)

    ultimately, as stated abve, the stricter they become the more plant smuggling is encouraged. so don't worry people they can't win. unless they ban importation of all forms of parcels into the country you can get...

  • neomexi
    15 years ago

    oh, and IMO Greg's attitude clearly displays that he is the epitome of gullibility. simple minds will believe some pretty F#cked up Bullsh1t if it is conveyed via media propaganda and comes pre-wrapped in red tape and involves laws so deliberately obscure, illogical, contradictory and confusing that even their own officers struggle to make any sense of them.
    Unfortunately, Greg's irrational beliefs appear to be rather widespread amongst a gullible brainwashed patriotic community comprised of citizens like himself who have an inherent inability to exhibit any form of initiative and whom's central belief rests on some form of jingoistic notion that anyone who imports any form of organic material into the country is 'un-Australian' and needs to be punished and the delusion that Australia can be pristene with the assistance of a chronically incapable quarantine department (aka money-grabbing scam).

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I think that the only way you will be 'educated' neomexi is with a legal 4 'b' 2!

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    OK Lets get some proportion hear.
    Greg you seem to consider that because I like to grow a particular family of plants, then I am anti the native bush. That I find somewhat offensive. That is totally incorrect.

    In your email to me you as good as state that the nusery trade and specialist growers were to blame for all the exotic weeds in Astralia, including "Particularly to a NSW site detailing the disaster of Prickly Pear in the 1950's.

    Facts:
    1) The prickly pear was introducted in the 18th century to create a Cochineal industry, using the Cochineal Insect which likes on Prickly Pear. An ecological disaster, but not the fault of nursery or grower. They are now a prohibited weed - I have no problems with this.

    However, this does not mean that all cacti are potential noxious weeds. Apart from the P.P. there is not one record anywhere in Australia of cacti going feral.

    All of the noxious weeds we have in Australia are the direct fault of farmers, Government Bodies, and the 'average gardener'letting them escape.

    My gripe with AQIS is the ridiculous fees that they charge for licensing, permits and quarantine. We all realise the importance of these measures, but at these prices?

    Fof
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Fof something of the order of 70% of all Australia's noxious and environmental weeds have been introduced by the horticulture sector. This includes commercial nurseries, home gardeners, agriculture and collectors etc.

    It is estimated that there are now more exotic plant species present in Australia than there are endemic plant species due to the activities of this sector over the past 200 years.

    It is estimated that noxious and environmental weeds are costing the Australian economy at least $4 billion annually in control and erradication, lost agricultural production and increased costs to agricultural production.

    Councils, government departments and farmers have a statutory requirement to control noxious weeds on land that they manage. And the lists of noxious weeds across Australia are steadily growing.

    The former garden ornamental plant Blue Periwinkle (Vinca major) is a very recent addition to the noxious weed list in VIC while Gamba Grass is a recent addition to the list in QLD.

    If you are unable to comprehend that we have a major economic and environmental problem then, quiet frankly, you need your heads read.

    The problem is that there are 10s of thousands of others like you who desperately want to add that next fanatastic plant to their collection. On top of that there is always another commercial nurseryman who wants to cash in on the latest and greatest plant from god knows where.

    Out of all these collectors and nurserymen and home gardeners illegally importing seeds into Australia via the post it is inevitable that enviromental weeds (future noxious weeds) steadily flow into...

  • neomexi
    15 years ago

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    I think that the only way you will be 'educated' neomexi is with a legal 4 'b' 2!
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    ah, the prime example of a typical come back you would expect to be uttered by a member of the forementioned community (or a bogan) in the face of sophistication he cannot even begin to comprehend.

    hmm 'poor science education'.. i happen to be a biology and environmental science student. ;)

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    "i happen to be a biology and environmental science student."

    Who has a great deal to learn.

    I a have a Bachelor Science from the University of Melbourne along with a Graduate Diploma in Computer Science from Latrobe University, a partial Certificate IV in Conservation & Land Management and several years experience in the conservation / weed control sector. I am far from an uneducated grunt or a first year (or what ever)
    student with no practical knowledge or experience.

    Several years ago I was just as ignorant about the issue of environmental weeds as you are sweet heart or sonny.

    You have much to learn. Or perhaps you choose not to learn anything that brings into question your own interests.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I by no means begrudge anyone wishing to grow exotic species that have a proven track record of being non-invasive in Australia. Roses, Irises, Daffodils and many others.

    I do not think that people should only be permitted to grow local native plants. I myself grow a range of Australian native plants from other parts of Australia that I know have no track record of being invasive in the Melbourne region. Those Aus natives that do have a track record of being invasive I do not grow despite the fact that I do like some of them, e.g. Soyalla heterophylla.

    But the chances of exotic species becoming environmental weeds in Australia is much higher due to fundamental differences between soil organisms and insects etc, that a act as control vectors for different plant species, on different continents.

    The risk is magnified even further with plant species that grow in arid climates similar to Australia.

    It is access to these species that should be severely restricted. And it upsets people like neomexi then tough titties.

    The interests of the nation, environment, economy, tourist sector and agriculture out weigh the interests of plant collectors.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hi Annie.

    Posted by neomexi vic (My Page) on
    Fri, Nov 7, 08 at 4:47

    hi, i just joined..i collect cacti in vic. and i have imported seeds. (OMFG!!..apologies for being a terrorist).
    Essentially, as most of you know and accept, AQIS is a complete and utter waste of time and resources. ;)


    From Garden Web Australia Forums: http://www.au.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cacti/msg0701500031239.html?20


    Is this an admission of breaching Australia's quarentine laws?

    Are you able to use your contacts within government circles to have this person identified and referred to the relevant AQIS authorities?

  • neomexi
    15 years ago

    Dear Greg,
    teh teh teh... i have not breached any AQIS laws on any occasion, nor did i admit to anything of the type. i merely expressed my opinion, it is a free country. foremost apologies if my views clash with those of others and are deemed offensive/inapproprate/clashing with accepted cultural norms etc. but then again people will always have different ideals regardless and i thought individuals were entitled to their own opinions and freedom of speech?

    i will admit, however, like so many other collectors of various plant types, that i have imported seeds into aus in the past, though only using legal means for importing Permitted Species in very small quantities. i did read the relevant legal details at AQIS ICON beforehand and adherred to it accordingly. Which, effectively, as far as i can see, does not incriminate me in any way shape or form. ;)

    quote:
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    The risk is magnified even further with plant species that grow in arid climates similar to Australia.
    It is access to these species that should be severely restricted. And it upsets people like neomexi then tough titties.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    oh dear, i am terribly sick of this view. its a sad fact that old habits die slow. it is typical of the uninformed to generalise. here is stimulus generalisation at its' worst. a classic example of this is the banning of ALL cacti in Queensland in the past. i'm sure you are very aware of the prickly pear (Opuntia stricta) invasion in queensland etc.(now synonymous with one of most successful biological controls in the form of cactoblastus cactorum etc etc). The government figured out what the appropriate course of action should be from the prickly experience and quickly proceeded to ban all cacti (yep..approximately all 2000 other species) from the state. (i assume this is also where your misguided generalisation also stems). A few of the cacti of the genus Opuntia are indeed exceptionally vigorous to the point of being weedy, i agree 100% with this observation, that a few species, O.stricta included, of the two hundred plus species in this genus actually are weedy. however this does not mean ALL Opuntia spp. are bad, and certainly not all cacti nor all plant species that happen to grow in arid climates for that matter either..? in fact all members of the Opuntia genus are still illegal to this day in queensland. i may not have the enlightenment of the educational degrees you have received but i realise and strongly believe that quarantine should work with, not against, private growers of cacti and succulents and their accompanying societies (i guess the same applies for all plants for that matter) in an effort to ensure that relevant steps are taken to identify what actually poses weed risks and what does not. this has not happened in the past. ignorance have declared many desirable species not permitted entry (and on the contrary...

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    "i thought individuals were entitled to their own opinions and freedom of speech"
    We 'greenies' also have demcratic right to express our views and to stop our opponents from egaging in environmentally damaging activities by any legal means available to us!

    "its a sad fact that old habits die slow"
    Yes they do don't they - you are certainly testament to that. I am afraid that those with the view that they should be permitted to grow any plant they damn well please are a dieing breed in government and bureaucratic circles I am glad to say.

    "this does not mean ALL Opuntia spp. are bad, and certainly not all cacti nor all plant species that happen to grow in arid climates for that matter either"
    Perhaps not but the Australian environment should be given the benefit of the doubt rather than plant collectors. All exotic plants, not already present, in the country should be assumed to be invasive until proven otherwise. That is the direction that governments are increasingly moving in.

    "in an effort to ensure that relevant steps are taken to identify what actually poses weed risks and what does not. this has not happened in the past. ignorance have declared many desirable species not permitted entry "
    Clearly you and many other collectors do not have the qualifications or field experience to unilaterally decide which exotic species you think are invasive under Australian conditions. That should be left up to the experts (hopefully) in AQIS and government departments. If their decisions have been inconsistent in the past then it is no doubt that the necessary expertise was yet to filter through the organisation. Hopefully AQIS officials take advice from relevant government departments when they lack the expertise themselves. For starters state noxious weed lists are available on the web and there is a wealth of weed information on www.weeds.org.au

    "that most weedy species are not highly regarded by the majority of collectors and the most desirable ones pose very minimal risk indeed) "
    You have already conceded that you lack the necessary education and experience so it is therefore not your place to make such assessments. You will not understand which exotic plants are invasive in your area until you have appropriate field experience. As opposed to sitting behind a desk or propagation bench.

    "intensifying restrictions"
    Intensifying restrictions and prosecutions also raise awareness about the issue. Unless we do this people like yourself will ignore us, ignore the issue and go on doing as they please. Which is what you would undoubtedly prefer. Well sorry but we will not oblige you.

    "personally, like a collector of cacti and i'm sure many like-minded individuals will concur, i would actually love to see the day when the outback is overrun by fields of Ariocarpus, Pelecyphora and Aztekium spp."
    This demonstrates just how utterely ignorant you are in all things ecological. If that is the case then I hope you are happy to see...

  • jensilaedi
    15 years ago

    I don't mean to pick the argument up from where it got left but I'm a little curious about one part of that answer

    ""this does not mean ALL Opuntia spp. are bad, and certainly not all cacti nor all plant species that happen to grow in arid climates for that matter either"
    Perhaps not but the Australian environment should be given the benefit of the doubt rather than plant collectors. All exotic plants, not already present, in the country should be assumed to be invasive until proven otherwise. That is the direction that governments are increasingly moving in."

    Just how do I prove that it is not a "bad" plant if I can't get it in, to begin with? Is the government so willing for its gardeners to go overseas and spend years growing certain plants so they can "prove" that they're not bad weeds for Australia... ???
    geez, I thought you only call them bad *after* the fact... not before.

  • norma_2006
    14 years ago

    My goodness, I am surprised that the languges that is used on your forum is allowed. We certainly would be kicked off. Why is everyone so angry. We don't like people coming over to our country and stealing our desert plants, but we don't get to angry and nasty. We just grow more and make them available for small sums of money, so you can get the proper permits, and documentation to take them home. I recently had the opportunity to listen to one of your speakers at our Nat. convention and didn't realize how many native succulents that Australia had. Perhaps one of you can start a program to make people aware of what plants that can be obtained from other countries, that can perhaps be farmed and produce a cash crop for export. Crasulady2

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    No one should be doing this if the species in question has potential to be invasive or is known to be invasive outside the country of origin, no matter how much money they could potentially earn.

  • teddyguuguu
    14 years ago

    Ariocarpus, pelecyphora and aztekium have potential to be invasive? now that is something that i would like to see.. mexican will flock to australia then.. most slow growing cacti species become so rare in their native country because the demand were so great from around the world.. imnot talking about opuntias or those dragon fruit cactus.. those species have potential to be invasive.. too many exotic species being introduced to australia in the past until now.. i dont know why they choose them without studying their ecology and distribution in the first place.. maybe because there was noone studying ecology back then fair enuf but now we have this education and technology.. we could save those rare species but no. many simple minded people just think this is not our plant. this doesnt belong here bla bla so they can go to hell.. but seriously i rather have my backyard taken over by ariocarpus than camphor laurel.. but i guess you cant really please anyone in this world..

  • norma_2006
    14 years ago

    Why is everyone so angry here. My guest were from Australia, they asked for the seeds, as a beginner then, I didn't think Echevieria seeds would be envasive. I can't even get them to germinate. The Echiveria book was written by an Australian, where did he get the plants, they had to come from somewhere. They are growing them in Australia, and I know who is growing them. Why did we invite and include a speaker from Australia for our last convention? Why am I growing several Australian plants? Some native plants are rare in several countries because they have been stolen from the countries that they are native. I think attitudes need to be reevaluated. You seem to be at war, and very competative, it's not a soccer game.

  • wet-thumbs
    14 years ago

    I think greg may have the wrong end of the stick, AQIS & Biosecurity is not about nil risk. it is about acceptable risk.
    like it or not we are signatories to international treaties so we dont have the right to say that we wont accept something at all because it might be a problem, it has to be shown to have demonstrated weed/disease potential not just perhaps. unless we want trade bans leveled at us.

    If you dont believe me just think how many pathogens & weed seeds could be in a KG of exotic soil? now have a look at how much soil you are allowed to have on your shipping containers as 'splash" or how much you are allowed to have as acceptable level of contamination in a shipment of 32000 kg of grass seed. do the math & think about the shear volume of imports yearly. if this doesnt scare you, you must have balls of steal!

    yes aqis's fee's do encourage smuggling, which is just how it is. they need to cost recover after citrus canker, fire ants & EI after all.

    A vast number of collectible spp are permitted imports (even quite a few that are weedy they must be ok because they are permitted imports.)

    http://www.aqis.gov.au/icon32/asp/ex_querycontent.asp use the end use - seeds for sowing

    realistically there arent that many spp that are prohibited apart from the opuntias, & many of the prohibited ones have been here for decades anyway, long before the current rules came in (AQIS only covers stuff coming in from OS & export not domestic)

    If your scared by the prospect of another prickly invader just consider what will happen when we get guava rust? You cant see it till the infection is well advanced & it will attack nearly 1/4 of our native flora. try fighting that. the only reason we dont have it is shear luck, just like sugar can smutt/ opps sorry we have that now.
    We are more likely to have the next "big incursion" as a contaminate rather than a deliberate introduction.

  • miyagii
    14 years ago

    The subject is simple:
    1 There really are serious importation risks that need to be managed.
    2 There needs to be a system to manage those risks.
    3 That system needs to be paid for.
    4 There is an issue of CRIMINALISATION of ordinary citizens and whether that process is fair and reasonable.
    5 The QUALITY of that system is extremely important. Unfortunately any part of the bureaucracy has variable quality at best and herin lies the problem. Fortunately the quality and efficiency of AQIS has improved greatly in recent years but it is still vulnerable to bureaucrats protecting their backs, 'experts' who have little field experience, day-to day workers who have NO practical experience, and a vast area with which to deal, and comittee 'decisions'. It is easier for a bureaucrat to say 'no' than it is for him to say 'yes'. The system has only been greatly freed up by international trading conventions which demand proof if an import is to be banned.
    5 The answer to all of this? - transparency, rigorous logic and accountability, and the ability to clarify and contest decisions. Unfortunately in this area AQIS still underperforms.

  • range_roser
    13 years ago

    I agree miyagii. There are many more points that come to mind regarding the QUALITY side of the equation. We only need to examine the source of the AQIS prohibitions to understand the reasons why the present system is not working.
    The lists determining which species AQIS will allow to enter this country are governed largely by the "professional opinions" of botanists and ecologists who are generally in the employ of Government. These professionals generally operate in isolation of the public. It is interesting that collectors of rare exotic plants who may have spent a lifetime studying the ecology and growth habits of rare species are never consulted. Many have travelled extensively overseas and even written books on the subject. They understand what makes particular species "tick", their biology, taxonomy, place in the ecology, growth habits, rarity, difficulty or ease of cultivation etc. But does the Government ever consult them about a particular species? In all truth, the answer is probably rarely or never. Instead these private enthusiasts are presumed to be "mere amateurs" or are even painted as "the enemy" (i.e. the ones who are responsible for many of the weed incursions in Australia). This may have been true in our colonial past, but the world has changed so much and so rapidly. Not only are there many millions more people in Australia today, but there is greater information available on just about everything, greater technology, and the world is highly mechanized. We have reached the point where even exotic species can and do become extinct regularly. But this fact is seldom mentioned or reported, because nobody seems to care if an early import of an exotic species can no longer be found in Australia.
    People also tend to be more educated these days, both in general and about the plants they choose to grow, yet the Government tends to treat them in a very patronizing way. It is almost as if they view all gardeners as just part of the "ignorant masses" who need protecting from the dangers of the outside world.
    The other side of this is that there are very few botanists who actually know very much about plants like cacti and succulents in Australia. Herein lies a major problem. Australian botanists and ecologists often "take sides" on the issue of cacti and succulents, and there is presently no real need for them to prove their opinions scientifically. So their opinions are generally hypothetical or theoretical and often contaminated by pre-existing or populist opinions. They often accept the highly emotive rants and hysteria being promulgated by the environmental lobby on face value, or at least align their opinions towards a watered down version of this hysteria. Their opinions tend to be viewed as "accepted fact", but may be so skewed towards a prevailing political correctness that they become incredibly biassed.
    I once sat through a lecture by a prominent botanist who was of the opinion that every single exotic plant that ever...

  • strungoutkiteboarder_gmail_com
    12 years ago

    seriously mate you really sounded offensive and stupid when stating you would like to see the outback covered in some of the cacti i too love but sure as hell dont want to see when i go bush,im constantly frustrated by the fact that i cant even get specimens from the east to wa.i think you forget there are highly educated people who decied on these matters,yes some cacti take a halfa life time to grow,but we do need to be careful what we let in.i just cant get over your staytement of wanting the bush to be covered in arios or any non native,are you having a joke or are you not from australia,wtf was with that remark....wa is screwed with things such as blackberry in the south its just lucky our noprth is not so friendly to invasive plants,when i go deseret i want to know im in aus.i love my cacti,but if isaw one up north id burn the thing to below the ground.im well educated in aquatic ferals and the probs they have caused,they have taken over to the point where we can not win.where marron in the south west are decimated.seriously when man understands that we must live within the natural environment and not try and change it and take more than it can provide we will have finally started on the path to reconstruction in stead of the destructive path that is going to be our undoing.overpopulation is the biggest problem we face,but a close second is changing the environmental balance to suit our vain,selfish wants,like I want 5 kids,not is having 5 kids what is needed,on a rant now but your statement was bloody offensive and if you love say mexico or texas frikin go there,i was born there,it aint that great,unless you wanna spend all your time looking at your beloved cacti,keep em but keep in a cage as such,like frikin cats should be,fininished nite shift so hope this has some sense to it,but ya statement just pissed me off!!!!!!!

  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    Ariocarpus, Pelecyphora and Aztekium spp. overrunning the outback??? Crikey, better grab the hoe and Roundup. Any professional grower of these plants would (or should) know that these plants are difficult to grow and extremely, agonizingly slow. The chances of them ever taking over the outback in the next million years are about as remote as seeing Lithops marching over the hills. The funny thing is that most weed warriors would be blissfully ignorant of this fact and so the irony has been completely lost on them.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    RE: exotic_lover

    The problem is that your attention span would be lucky to encompass several years.

    No weed species is capable of overrunning a continent within the limited range of your attention span, and indeed your life time.

    It took at least 100 years for prickly pear to became the massive and expensive problem that it was in the 50's.

    No doubt imbeciles back in the early 1800s, with equally short attention spans, could not see how prickly pear could ever be an environmental on the scale that it indeed become.

    AQIS is doing a great job at protecting Australia from you and your short sighted ilk! Keep the importation costs high and throw those recalcitrants who attempt to smuggle biological materials in jail, or bankrupt them with fines.


  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    A typically knee jerk, emotive response, what more can we expect? Well considering Lithops, Arocarpus etc. are permitted species, the whole argument about the ethics of importing them legally is null and void. And if anyone wants to grow them in the outback they are free to do so, except in the closed, dictatorial mindset of the ideologue.

    Your pointing to prickly pears merely shows how outdated and limited your grasp of exotics really is. Ariocarpus and prickly pears hardly compare. And by prickly pears I assume you mean Opuntia stricta and not the hundreds of species from the Andes that are extremely rare and difficult to grow in cultivation.

    So by your logic we should not import animals for zoos either because of cane toads?

    You say the people who brought prickly pears here were imbeciles. Really? Your definition of what constitutes "an imbecile" is about as narrow, inaccurate and unscientific as your definition of "an exotic".

    I know Italian immigrants who cultivate Opuntia in tended rows for the fruits, which they conserve and sell in markets. The seed cannot germinate because the fruit is always picked and conserved for consumption. I am sure they would find your comments about imbeciles rather offensive.

    I also know people who work in AQIS and I must say I am glad their views are not so limited. They also appear to have a very good attention span, focus and patience, and for the most part are always willing to help any importer when they are able.

    Import costs have not changed much over the years, but as with everything in life, they inevitably go up. The costs tend to go up due to cost of labour and materials rather than function as a "blanket control measure" to stamp out importation. Government funding tends to be lacking towards many departments, so they are often forced to find ways to bring in their own revenue.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Exotic_lover cane toads and zoo animals are entirely different cases. Apart from a period of quarantine for infectious diseases purposes, it is ABSOLUTELY certain that zoo animals will not be released into the wild by the zoo authorities.

    The same could not be said of small proportion of equivalent numb skulls like yourself who might like to keep zoo animals in their private zoos.

    But the same cannot be said of plants unless you keep them in glass bubble.

    If you want to bring in exotic plants for your own personal gratification then it is YOU who should take financial responsibility of ensuring that your collectable don't end up becoming a massive burden on future generations of tax payers.

    And if you don't like this regime exotic_lover then, quite frankly, tough bl00dy titties. Find another hobby! Your personal whims do not trump the interests of tax payers and the nation!


  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    Clearly it is impossible to reason with impossible people. Take a stress pill and lie down.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Agreed exotic_lover.

    Impossible people: those who think they know better than ecologists who have spent years gaining their qualifications and years carrying out peer reviewed research that tells people with grey matter that open slather import of all biological matter, as well as seeds, poses an unacceptable risk to the environment, to agriculture and to tax payers.

    As opposed to those who are lucky to have made it past high school and whose only interest is cash flow!


  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    "open slather import of all biological matter". These are your words not mine! I never once suggested anything of the sort. Nor have I suggested that I know better than ecologists.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Exotic_lover your comment is indicative of the I/me/my mentality that is slowly destroying this country across the board.

    You want to import just this and that to add to your collection.

    And some body else just wants to import a different this and that for their collection.

    Multiplied by tens of thousands of individuals across the country who all just want to import one or two things for their collection and we will have a biological recipe for ever worsening environmental, agricultural and economic disaster for this Australia and future generations.

    Fortunately our MPs and authorities are starting to belatedly see the environmental light and clamping down on this national behavior if only due to the economic impacts it is having for agriculture and the country in general.

    You are not going to win on this because your insignificant little hobby or business is not going to win against the national economic agricultural impacts. Finally we environmentalists and ecologists have the ear of government.

    Besides Australia has over twice the biodiversity of Europe and North America combined. And much of that is plants and many of these plants are succulents that are different and unique from the rest of the world.

    So stop judging native plants by the pathetic array you find in Bunnings etc, and start doing some real exploring of the universe of Australian flora through the Australian Plant Society.

    Did you know that, technically, Brachychiton (commonly known as bottle trees) are in fact succulent plants. Wood does not swell significantly with water but the trunks of bottle trees do, much like the giant saguaro cacti of the north American deserts. What about the epiphytic ant plants of QLD - a unique and very drought tolerant alternative to stag horn ferns etc. Or the plethora of pink flowered Calendrinia from the outback. Or the Doryanthes that are closely related to the Agave. The native glassworts from the coastal salt marshes. Sarcozona, lithophytic orchids and many other species featured in Attila and Michele Kapitany book "Australian Succulent Plants"

    http://australiansucculents.com/

    There is a life time of collecting in that single book and undoubtedly even more that Atilla, and those who follow his example, are yet to discover.

    Time for you to stop living in the cultural cringe based horticultural past.


  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    Man you jump to some far-reaching conclusions... What more can be expected from extremists who prefer to preach misdirected panic and doom. I think you will find it is spelt Calandrinia, not Calendrinia. I grow them legally alongside my legal, exotic cacti and love both. Geez mate, I hope you never get into any position of authority in this country with your desire to impose such far-reaching, strict and inflexible rules and penalties for all and sundry. You can only expect open defiance and rebellion. I can also expect you would offend a great many cultural/ethnic groups if your agenda ever reached its fullest conclusions. Your actual agenda is plain to see for all who read your posts. You seem to desire something akin to prohibition. For example, what is your honest opinion on the state to state trade in exotics like cacti and succulents through the post?

    I'm guessing you prefer to preach a message of panic, doom and hate, then wait for someone to take the bait with a reasoned response that seeks to find some middle ground in the debate. Then you pounce with rampant, venomous antagonism. I think you will find this is called trolling in the internet world.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is not my agenda, it is the new agenda of the governments and their ecologist and agricultural advisers. although I agree with it whole heatedly.

    As for ethnic groups, they are required to obey all Australian laws, including the environmental ones. If they do not then they get fined or go to jail like any other Australian citizen.

    You are not an authority on what is likely to be a weed (or otherwise pose a bio hazard security risk) and what is not unless you are university educated and have conducted peer reviewed scientific research on the relevant species.


    "wait for someone to take the bait with a reasoned response t"

    What a laugh. All I see is a spoiled adult brat who is having a 'tanty' because his seeds purchased over seas get confiscated and otherwise can't add certain exotic species to his collection


    "Man you jump to some far-reaching conclusions"

    Perhaps you are specifically referring to the Australian biodiversity being over twice the combined total of Europe and north America.


    Again it is not my conclusion, It is the conclusion from the research of accredited scientists in the relevant fields.

  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    You did not answer my question.

    So you personally have no agendas or axes to grind? I don't believe you. Of course the implication is that you are "speaking the words of the Government", which causes me to ask this question. Since when did Australia become a dictatorship?

    There is a huge difference between Government and yourself. The government tries to cater for specific circumstances, whereas you seem so often to generalize by casting all exotics and their growers in a negative light.

    Where do you get off accusing me of having my seeds confiscated? Where did I ever say that????? Once again here is a good example that shows you concocting negative, spurious, and unsubstantiated allegations and conclusions about people simply on the basis that they grow exotics. You always attempt to paint exotics and their growers as being "bad" and "unethical". This is very plain to see and speaks volumes about your actual personal agendas.

    I note that in all of your rants and ramblings there is often part truth, but the rest is complete rubbish. I rest confident that most intelligent readers of this page will be easily able to separate the two.

  • gregaryb
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    If it was not you who personally had seeds confiscated then you were certainly sympathizing with the person who did. And you are clearly having your own 'tanty' about AQIS.

    And yes you could say that I have my own axe to grind.

    First of all I am rather 'patriotic' when it comes to native flora and gardens. A little patriotism around flora and fauna, and other issues, certainly does not hurt.

    And second, I have spent a lot of time trying to control garden escapes into council flora reserves and therefore seen first hand the damage they can do to our rare and endangered flora.


  • exotic_lover
    9 years ago

    Where did I ever have a 'tanty' about AQIS? Where did I sympathize with anyone who had seeds confiscated? Once again you are making false assumptions.

    I personally have more trouble controlling a rampant native weed species in my garden than any of my exotics. Also the majority of exotic weeds in my area were brought here by agriculture, not by gardeners.

    Patriotism is okay providing it does not go so far as to seem cuckoo dingbats.

  • vivizhj
    8 years ago

    I have the same question for the seed import from oversea from eBay. Even we are allowable to buy this on the eBay from oversea. Does it can be delivered to us? Does it legally import?

  • peregrinemobile
    7 years ago

    I am interested in growing two trees from seed or small plants.

    Manzanita is the first and Arbutus Menziesii is the second.

    I cannot find whether or not they are permitted to be imported.

    Have tried looking at AQIS (now DAFF ??) but no help whatsoever.

    Can you guide me to some site where i can sort this out.

    Thanks

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