an interesting read gardenlen, and hard to disagree with too

yes it is of interest and maybe not gone fare enough?

send me an e/mail from the link below, if you are interested in seeing some more chat on this topic.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page

Interesting.

By the way, when the government justified Australia not ratifying the Kyoto Protocol because our contribution to improving the situation would be more than negated by China's increases in greenhouse gas production, didn't anyone wonder how much we're contributing to China's greenhouse gases by importing so much from over there. We were shopping for something on the weekend and found that an increasing number of these products are made in China from raw materials shipped over from here and then returned to us. So we are supporting the polluting industries of places like China and adding enormously to the amount of transportation required. I wonder if anyone has calculated the amount of greenhouse gases produced by the ships going back and forth between Australia and various Asian countries that now manufacture what we used to be able to make for ourselves. What a mess we are making with our ill thought out priorities.

Ever thought for a momenet that 'global warming' might actually just be a climatic pattern? There has been cold cycles, warm cycles, cold cycles....

I'd ignore the silly greenies for a start. If they want to eat lentil soup for ever thats their choice! :D

g'day macbirch,

yes exactly here we are with a gov' that is going to force newclear power onto us so we can shut down our efficient burning coal stations just so china can buy the coal we will ahve extra so they can increase their stations from around 300 ot over 600, you ever seen pics of their stations spewing out all that soot??

but how they make us look bad is they work out somehow or other how much carbon our stations emmit then they divide it by our small population base (20 million) and convert the figure to a per-capita rate, then they do the same for china but china has waht 300 mill people of whic by far and away the greater majority have no access to the power they produce.

yes banana republic economics has forced people to buy those cheaper products and so the death knell for on shore australian manufacturing, unforunately as much as we would love to buy aussie made at all time we are on that banana republic driven pension which ensures we will either buy cheap or buy nothing.

now while waht the over paid and gov' supporting scientist call climate change is not much more than a normal cyclical natural process, we are making it worse by the continued mass removal of bio-diversity and habitat.

no i did not enjoy seeing some egotist getting our countries award just so he could stand there and put his bigotted boot into us.

len

"Ever thought for a momenet that 'global warming' might actually just be a climatic pattern? There has been cold cycles, warm cycles, cold cycles...."

no I dont believe that.those cycles happen slowly over hundreds of years not decades like whats happening now. you cant ignore the fact that every industrial country is pumping out huge amounts of gases into the atmosphere but the gases have no where to go so they accumulate and heat up. the atmosphere is heating up and that leads to less precipitation. I think we're at a critical point in history. things are getting worse across the world and the govts and industry dont want to do anything about it because economies rely on all that industry to make money.

Interesting point about the coal.

I wish I could be more enthusiastic about the greenies but I'm tired of being made to feel guilty because I don't ride a bike to work and eat lentils. Nevertheless I do believe we have real problems and we need to do something. On tonight's news somebody said we've passed the point of no return, all we can do is stop things getting worse.

Getting back to water, last spring a number of our school ovals were resown. The sight of sprinklers going during the day isn't going down well with locals who are only allowed to water morning and evening every other day and who have given up on their lawns.

macbirch youve made some very valid points.its all good and well for the govt to point the finger at china but most of what they make is for foreign companies to ship it back out again to the western countries. thats the type of thing govts do and then claim theyre reducing greenhouse gases but theyre just passing it off somewhere else. The real difference is only going to be made by industry with pressure from govts and since that isnt likely to happen in a hurry things are going to get critical before things change and theyll keep on telling us its up to us to make a difference while industry just keeps on chugging along - its nothing more than a diversion tactic. Maybe if we can turn things around the rains will come back, I hope things havent gone past the point of no return or we are really in it up to our necks.

I don't eat lentils either and I don't ride my bike to work or virtually anywhere else nowadays, but I do think we have to stop thinking the 'global warming' effect is a naturally recycling phenomenon before it really is too late. Also, in respect to some items coming from China and made from aussie raw materials, in particular domestic machinery such as chain-saws, edgers, vac. blowers, and other garden and DIY products, professional users of these items say they are sub-standard, cheap rubbish compared to what we use to manufacture. But they're cheap and for that reason, I guess places like Bunnings and Big W will continue to sell them because we continue to buy them.

Yes how dare all those scientists from all over the world feed us all those facts about Global Warming and make us feel guilty!!

My goodness they have even now got those red necks John Howard and George Bush admitting Global Warming is man made too!! Yeah and I agree lets blame China for all the problems even though the USA accounts for 25% of total Global fossil fuel consumption.

To Hell with the future, to Hell with facts! I have done some extensive experiments of my own and it is all a lot of rot. For example when I look out my back door, the world is most definitely flat and as for all that baloney that it is round!! And don't talk to me about all that hogwash that smoking causes lung cancer!!

I must buy myself a bike and some lentils!!

Its too late already.

I've never heard the greenies complaining about the over-packaged cheap toys that fall apart the first time you use them but plastic bags from the supermarket are a big problem.

I just wish more was being done, but with more thought.

why just pick on grocery shopping bags, why not include all those other plastic bags which last a whole lot longer in the sun that do shopping bags.

and those enviro' poly bags they sell you that are made in china with secret ingredients they will never rot once they end up in the system and they will.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page

For goodness sake Macbirch, this discussion started out with a very informed article about water use and the management of water systems! I see that every post from you has brought China into the discussion! What the dickens have they got to do with our water crisis?

Wealthy America uses far more fossil fuels than China and for far more stupid reasons. At least China signed the Kyoto protocols and is begining to build major new alternative efficient power stations (wind, solar etc.). China has more solar/wind power generation than Australia. For a developing country, they probably have a better excuse for being inefficient than most of us cosy living developed countries. It is fascinating that we sit back with all our luxuries and slag off about China while we ignore the obvious around us.

Macbirch we are now well aware of your position on China, greenies, cheap Chinese made toys, plastic bags, (thirty years ago it would have been cheap Japanese toys) bike riders and lentils, but it appears you have absolutely nothing to contribute about the water crisis!

Seriously, I agree with most of the water article. Our climate is changing and we are the most vulnerable of all the continents when it comes to water use and rainfall. All governments have dragged their feet for far too long. We can reuse grey water in our backyards etc. all we like but we have to have major water recycling schemes for the big cities and not treat water systems like the Murray-Darling so selfishly.

Just speak to any South Australian. Remember the Murray River has pretty well stopped flowing to the sea and meanwhile, up in Queensland folk like Cubbie Station are sucking obscene amounts out of it for Cotton, a very water thirsty crop.

China, Greenies, Lentils, bikes, and plastic bags aside Macbirch, if you really cared about the issue of water, you would be discussing it seriously.

What about some serious, informed opinions on water folks? I would have thought gardeners would be much more informed and concerned about the water crisis than most of the above posts!!!

what gets up my nose is homeowners told to use less water while the govt does this - free water giveaway
one rule for us and one rule for industry. how can we make a difference when this rubbish goes on?

I heard something recently about BHP and the Great Artesian Basin. Thanks for the link Redcryptonite.

Len, I reuse the plastic bags and I also use those envirobags, and I'm not sure if I feel that good about either. Remember when supermarkets packed your purchases in big brown paper bags?

I don't know how old you are Robert but I remember when this country used to manufacture most of what it needed and one of my concerns is that our mindless consumerism is driving China's industrialisation. Which I think the Russians may actually consider has some bearing on water, as they have been the unfortunate recipients of some nasty industrial chemical spills from China. I think it can be beneficial to avoid focussing too narrowly on just one aspect of the environment. It's all interrelated.

If you want to have a serious discussion about water it might help if you calm down a little and not attack people, and maybe allow for the discussion to meander a bit. Sometimes those sorts of threads are the most interesting and informative.

well said macbirch. when things were manufactured in australia they were made to a quality and lasted years. companies use china because of low wages to make the same products to a price which has made them disposable. instead of buying one product you now buy the same product over and over to replace the now poor quality one that carks it after a few years. that adds to global production and global warming which leads us back to water. The more you look at the water situation and global warming you just keep seeing it over that industry is doing the most damage and thats where things need to change the most.

Macbirch,

As for you saying, "I think it can be beneficial to avoid focussing too narrowly on just one aspect of the environment" I would have thought plastic bags has nothing at all to do with water or even Climate Change. You have created dozens of red herrings for goodness sake. They are way way off the subject. I am still waiting to see if you have anything to say about the original post - water.

"I've never heard the greenies complaining about the over-packaged cheap toys that fall apart the first time you use them " Macbirch they do it all the time for goodness sake!

Here we have the lowest umemployment in decades, an unprecedented economic boom and you are still complaining about China taking our jobs! I suppose you prefer to keep them in poverty.

At least I addressed matters that you have brought up even though it is a giant leap from our Australian water crisis to China. You still have not made one point linking the water crisis with the problem of China.

This is a classic illustration of why we have such a crisis. Because so many folk cannot get their imagination around it; even gardeners. They would prefer to moan and groan about lentil eaters, bike riders, plastic bags and Asia for goodness sake.

It appears you would rather we lived in luxury while the whole of Asia stayed in poverty. India recently was actually an exporter of grain when fifteen years ago there was massive starvation.

If you had read what I said, I made a reference to Japan. Macbirch about my age, I will take a punt and guess that I am either close to your age or even older!

You may be too young to remember the slagging Japan got in the fifties and Korea got in the sixties for manufacturing substandard goods. Not now. Becoming an expert in manufacturing takes time. Besides they also have a right to improve their lives. They might not be perfect in doing it but over time they learn.

Meanwhile here in Australia, too many blokes sit on their hands, moan and groan about Asia racing ahead, plastic bags, lentils and bikes while and all our geothermal, solar and wind power experts and discoveries move overseas because Governments will not give them the proper funding etc. and prefer to live in denial. We have more sunshine than any country and yet our solar expertise has to overseas to much wiser countries. So much of our irrigation expertise went overseas to places like Israel, California, and even India before we saw the light (which is just recently).

It is interesting that now just about every government including George Bush and John Howard admit that the biggest issue facing the world right now is Climate Change. The only reason Howard is now interested in water is because he realises there are votes in it. Water is Australia's most important resource on this the driest continent on earth and the increasing lack of it is causing a huge crisis. This debate has been going on for years but only recently governments have taken...

So true Redcryptonite. Our first washing machine, fridge and lounge suite lasted around twenty years. We still have our dining suite and buffet. None of these things were expensive, just the affordable stuff that young first home buyers bought. Even if we have the ability to recycle the materials in such items there is going to be a cost in terms of transportation and energy usage. Surely it's better to have them last for a reasonable length of time, and be in good enough condition to sell or donate so somebody else can get some benefit from them if you want to update, before they finally have to go to the recycling depot.

Robert, China was first mentioned in Len's link and lentils were first mentioned by another poster. You make a few good points but you bury them in irate long-winded ramblings. It damages your credibility and alienates people who might otherwise want to learn more about what you have to say.

The sad thing is, I wonder how many average Aussies might have gotten the message sooner that we need to be doing more about environmental problems if that message wasn't getting lost in the procrastination and occasional hypocrisy of governments, the opportunism of industry, and the politically correct idealogically sound haranguing of some sections of the green movement.

"This is a classic illustration of why we have such a crisis. Because so many folk cannot get their imagination around it; even gardeners."

robert this is where I disagree. I believe most people and serious gardeners do get it but its just the tip of the iceberg. all the focus so far has been on home owners to make a change and its not working. its like slapping a band aid on a festering sore. sure it looks better on the surface but the festering sore just gets worse underneath. the focus now has to shift to where the most amount of difference can be made and its only now that the UN has brought down its report on global warming that its just getting discussed by govts. theyve ignored this for 20-30 years and blown it off and denied there is a problem and now they are scrambling around for band aid solutions which dont work. the govt DOES NOT want to face this for economic reasons, watch what they say in the media and how they say it. if we have a change of govt with a different attitude only then is there a chance of change, but if the next govt has the same attitude, we're stuffed. on a local level we can all continue to do our best and try to make a small difference but its not the answer and we need to wake up to that fact.

Redcryptonite,

I think we both agree on a lot more than you think. If government suggests building desalination plants, they get jumped on, if they suggest building recycling water schemes, they get jumped on, if they suggest we should pay more for our water they get jumped on etc. etc. It is time we gardeners started constructively suggesting big project methods of water use that suit our climate and the larger communities. And I mean more than just rainwater tanks.

Water supply projects require a fair bit of expense in infrastructure and every Government knows that there is a good chance they will get voted out of office if they suggest we might have to pay more in taxes to foot the bills. So, just like in the original article that Len posted, we will end up with privatised schemes that will cost us a bundle in the long run in water bills etc. Privatised schemes appeal to the short term selfish voter and that includes a lot of gardeners as well.

The tolls we now pay to privatised freeways are there because we voted in governments that promised tax cuts instead of building infrastructure. Other examples are, the disaster in privatising power such as in Victoria, the skyrocketing costs at privitised airports, our public transport systems now at breaking point with no new investment. So the Murray-Darling disaster has come about as a result of classic voter motivated situation come about because of the political parties appeal to voter greed.

The fact is, if we invest now in the right projects it will pay off handsomely in the future. The University of NSW is still a world leader in Solar research but its technology has been bought up by the Germans who now employ hundreds in factories in East germany in a factory that should be here. Why because no Australian company was willing to put the investment in here. The Government has withdrawn assistance for alternative power research so the work is going overseas. As a result, Germany now leads the world in alternative power development that should have been here! It is about Governments spending money while the voter demands tax cuts.

Projects like the Snowy River scheme, the Sydney Harbour Bridge, our railway lines etc. lots of the iconic infrastructure that we use now would never get built today.

In order to deal with Climate Change it requires big thinking and courageous governments. It also requires voters with the appropriate vision as well. It always comes down to the voter. The only reason that Howard is talking now about water and Climate change is that he is thinking of the next election.

If anyone suggests that the government spends more money on these projects there is a deluge of doom and gloom merchants going on about more taxes. So private investment in infrastructure has become a huge cash cow and the voter thinks he is smart because he pays less in taxes while in the long run he is paying out so much more.

Red Lentil Burgers with
Zesty Yoghurt Topping
Serves 5

Ingredients

1 cup red lentils
1 & 1/3 cups vegetable stock
1 teaspoon ground coriander
1 teaspoon ground cumin
1 teaspoon paprika
1 teaspoon Garam Marsala
½ medium onion, finely chopped
2 slices bread, crumbled
2 teaspoons chopped almonds
1 tablespoon chopped lemon rind
1 egg, beatenFor Cooking
1 tablespoon olive oil Zesty Yoghurt Topping
1 cup Greek Style Yoghurt
½ cup chopped mint
1 tablespoon lemon juice
2 teaspoons lemon rind
Serve with
Mixed Salad
Kebab Bread

Method

In a saucepan heat stock and add lentils. Cook for 20 minutes over medium, stir to prevent lentils from sticking.

Meanwhile, prepare remaining ingredients.

In a bowl combine burger ingredients. Mix well and refrigerate for 30 minutes.

Shape into burgers and pan fry for a few minutes on each side.

Prepare Zesty Yoghurt Topping
In a bowl combine ingredients and mix.

Serve Red Lentil burgers with a dollop of Zesty Yoghurt Topping and a mixed salad of tomato, lettuce, cucumber, capsicum, mushrooms with kebab bread.