jclimber, I've have a setup very similar to what you are talking about though my pond is only half the size, still large for an ornamental pond with goldfish. I have a Savio Skimmer with two pumps, one goes to a rapids effect at a small, small stream that feeds in under the biofilter fall, and, the other one pumps into the biofilter. I also have an upper pool and a lower pool separated by a wide but short water fall. The Savio Skimmer (full size) is located at the other end of the lower pool from the waterfall. My two magdrive pumps work fine. Laguna brand 3900 waterfall pumps. That all said, I would take ccoombs advice, no doubt. The number one problem with my pond is keeping the detritus and other junk off the bottom. In fact, you never can keep it off the bottom. The detritus is so fine that you only stir-it up if you get in to clean the pond. So my advice would be to go with the bottom drain setup but still use a skimmer box for the top floating stuff. Thanks for the btm drn link, ccoombs; I hadn't seen that... and thanks for the explanation of the bottom drain (not for draining, necessarily) because when I first heard about BDs that what I thought for sometime! I like the suggestions for saving money. If you can afford the time, better to make your own... esp. underlayment; I actually think old carpet (go dumpster diving at a carpet store) is superior to the underlayments I've laid hands on. Here's another suggestion: I'd get the rock out. It would be one thing if they were in the water atop the liner, but rolling liner up over them is just taking up space. Plus, you could use those big ones to help landscape at the edge. So it occurred to me when you talked about getting an electrician to bring a circuit out to the pond that this electrician is going to have to pay someone to trench. Most places are under the National Electric Code and that means burying the cable 30" or more... they're going to want to use a trencher. If you're going to have to get a trencher in for that you could save by getting a mini-excavator (rental from any tool/equip rental shop) and have it equipped with multiple bucket sizes... most come with options. get a slender bucket for the trench work, wider bucket for the rock. If an excavator can't lift the rock it should be able to beat on it enough to crack it smaller and scoop it out... of course, you could just pay someone to remove the large rocks. Whatever you decide make sure you have 'em mark the area for underground utilities. I really like your setup though. You never did say if you planned to have fish, what kind? Is that a german sheppard!? He/She will love the pond!

Hi all - wow thank you for the input! For some reason a few of these comments never made it to me via email, so sorry for the delay in response. CHAS: I think I'm going to just go with a shorter stream, which will cut down on the height a great deal. I will wrap it around the pond (instead of going straight up the sloped ground) - which will make the head height less and also keep the flow calmer for froggies. I also decided that I will focus the main pond on fish; and I'm going to put a little, shallower pond tucked along the creek which will be just for frogs - with a pump maybe, but no filter or anything (my current frog pond has just a pump/waterfall, no filter, and the frogs are very happy and healthy there). Hopefully the frogs will natuarlly choose the little pond instead of the bigger pond, and even if they lay eggs in the lower pond, I can just move them up to the froggie pond. I at least will feel like I've done my part to provide a safe haven for them :) RSINGLEY: I had read a similar recommendation elsewhere of putting mesh and other media around the pump - I like the idea, though I do wonder what the negative effect of not filtering the larger particles will be? (seems silly to get a debris handling pump and then restrict the debris from getting in, but alas, the dilemma of tadpole lovers). FROGMAN4: You'd be right on the calculation but it's not all at a 3.5' depth, and it's an oval pond. If you picture an upside down oval wedding cake: the biggest layer is 16x13 but it's only about a half-foot deep (it's a rock shelf). The second layer is 14x11 and is 1 foot deep. The third layer is 11x8 and is 2 feet deep (so total depth at the bottom will be 3.5). I calculated each "layer" out as separate pond volumes; using the oval pond forumla of L x W x D x 6.7, the top layer is 696 gallons, 2nd layer is 1031, 3rd layer is 1179 = 2906 gallons. The third (bottom) layer will have sloped walls, too, which actually will cut down the gallons, but I'm fine with over-estimating. I have wavered back and forth a hundred times about going with a skimmer filter as opposed to an external mechanical filter. I still haven't hit the "place order" button on my pump/filter order, but I made up my mind last night that I was going to go with a Laguna max flow pump (2000 gal), pressurized filter (3200), and also have a waterfall bio filter at the top. Holding off on the drain for now, but I saw some that I can add later if the need warrants. Chose the external filter instead of skimmer because I didn't want to have to do 2 pumps, and I just felt that not having the pump at the bottom (which it wouldn't be if I put the pump in the skimmer) wasn't the best idea... which was my deciding factor. I hope what I'm choosing will be sufficient... weeks of research got me here, and I'm ready to just install all this already! :) MEGANMCA: Thanks for that link - it's very helpful! I did read that pipe diameter is important - I'm going to go with 1.5" and hope that's sufficient. My sister just installed the same pump/filter combo I'm using with 1.5" and it's a beatuful flow. Her waterfall is a little lower than mine, but I think it will suffice... If not, can add a 2nd pump but hoping I don't have to do that. Thank you all so much for the input - and as always open to any other thoughts/suggestions!

Sherry Picture below is of a female P. i. kaibabensis. It's easy to notice the differences in it from the other two similar big black swallowtails found in North America (P. polyxenes & P. bairdii). On kaibabensis there is a much larger area of submarginal blue scaling and it doesn't have the yellow "dots" on the abdomen that the others do. Interestingly this bug in the Grand Canyon is also the one that lead to the only serious pursuit and prosecution of butterfly poachers in this country. I knew all three men charged, and unfortunately they all got off way too easy. Anyway, I have the whole story saved as doc files if anybody wants to read them (just drop me an email). You must live in one of the few places in the world (outside of Antarctica) that doesn't have Pieris rapae Sherry. LOL If you think you'd like Neophasia menapia, you'd go bonkers over N. terlooii or better yet any species from my favorite lep family worldwide... the Parnassinae. Larry

Cathy, if you want a feeling of what a massive piece of sculpture it is, you won't get close to Crazy Horse, they are still working and so there is a "demolition zone". You can get much closer to the faces at Rushmore. Plus, Rushmore is a National Park and Crazy Horse is administered by a non-profit organization. That means no government money goes into Crazy Horse, so it's going slowly. Crazy Horse was a hero to his people, caring for the ill and elderly, protecting the children, and he died from a knife in his back, ostensibly from a soldier at the fort where he went to talk about treaties between the U.S. Government and the Lakota. The faces on Rushmore, though, were national figures, not simply ethnic ones. Each has its own history and significance. Rushmore, though, has historical significance for everyone, not just the Native Americans. And walking down that walk of flags, with a flag from every state, is very cool! Annie