Good suggestions. I don't cut my milk jug all the way around, leave a little hinge just under the handle. Then when I open them up, I peg them to the ground. If it gets cold again, it's easier to tape it shut again for late frosts and you probably don't have to tape it as thoroughly as initially. I save my containers and use them again, and the right kinds of tops are with the right jugs. What I'm wrestling with is that I decided I want to sow a lot of seeds in oversized cell packs. I have the trays that match but no holes in them. Anyway, I don't want to preset anything to hold plastic up and over them now, and the ground will be frozen when I set my jugs out in about Feb to poke anything down in. I've been looking around and the only thing I have to keep the plastic a couple inches off (or just an inch might be ok) the surface of the cell packs to keep from crushing the new growth would be some bricks, some old glass blocks. Can anybody think of what might work better that is easy/free/cheap? I think saran wrap would be too thin for those and have some clear plastic in a roll that is probably too heavy, maybe w/slits in it heavy would be ok. I can get something in between. The reason I want to sow in cell packs is for some of my seeds that resent transplanting to have a better chance and save me work later. I sometimes start in those trays you talked about w/covers (from McD's salads, KFC etc.) They work great. Sometimes I plant directly into the ground but some I like to transplant individually into cell packs so they can grow on, very tedious. Sowing directly into cell packs would save me that step. One trick I learned for spring sowing but should work equally well for winter sowing is to plant in the deli containers, then fill 16 oz plactic cups w/drainage holes punched in the bottom partway up with potting soil. Then use a spatula & dull knife and work a chunk of seedlings out of the tray and just set it on top of the soil, the roots will find it easy to work on down. Then I let grow on for awhile and plant with a bulb planter. That would work well for people whose gardens are crowded or whatever. I have to make things as easy on myself as possible or it won't all get done.

Hey Kenny I'm going to have to back out of this group swap. I have absolutly no clue where my gardenign stuff is, this room is still filled with unopened boxes.... Maybe if you do another group swap this winter... Or I'll just do individual trades. Everyone enjoy it, this is a blast!!!

Image by: Trudi DavidoffMini-greenhouses from recyclables! "How to Winter Sow Seeds Outdoors" It really is very easy to do. First, let me give you a little background as to why I sowed the seeds during the Winter. I live in a very small house, a cottage actually, and I simply do not have room for a light set up, also any window space I have must be fought from the cat and "Prinny" likes to look out on the street and watch the world go by, so I have to give her a windowsill. She's a good cat and deserves her place in the sun. I got hooked on seed trading, and as you all know seed trading is like Pokeman......you gotta have 'em all. I had tons of seeds, I had them all. Though I am not a novice at gardening I am a novice at growing seeds, this was my second season doing so. Because of my lack of experience with growing seeds, and not having a light set up, I always traded for "easy to grow" seeds: I had to start them in the windowsill or out on the patio in flats during Spring and Summer which I did the previous year with good success too. I was thinking a lot last Winter about how I was going to start all these seeds, I needed an easy way out. I knew that many seeds needed to be pre-chilled, and I knew that many plants reseed and germinate outdoors without our intervention. I thought about this for a few days and put 2+2 together. I would sow them into flats, and take them outside for the Winter, if all went well then they would germinate in Spring. I am a true believer in "recycle and reuse". I had been saving my take-out containers from the Chinese restaurant (not those typical white boxes that have a metal handle and white rice inside), I was saving the foil pans that have a separate clear plastic lid, they're usually round or rectangular. These containers were just perfect.....plus I didn't have to go to a store and open up my wallet (hmm, look at all the moths fly out), if I can get away without having to lay down a buck I will. I did need soil though and so I went to Walmart and got their brand which was the cheapest I could find. Seed selection: Take a look at a seed catalogue, most will have some sort of notation about a seed's germination requirements, or you'll pick up a few clue-in phrases. Look for these terms: Needs Pre-chilling (freeze seeds, refrigerate seeds, stratify for x amount of day or weeks) Needs Stratification Will Colonize Self Sows Sow outdoors in early Autumn Sow outdoors in early Spring while nights are still cool Sow outdoors in early Spring while frosts may still occur Hardy Seeds Seedlings can withstand frost Can be direct sown early Wildflower Weed (such as butterfly weed, joe pye weed, jewel weed) Look for Common Names indicating a natural environment: Plains Prairie Desert Mountain Swamp Field River etc. Look for names that might indicate an origin in a temperate climate: Siberian Chinensis Polar Alpine Orientale Canadensis Andean Russ (indicating Russian origin) etc. Think about your own garden, and your neighbors' gardens too. Do you find plants that have volunteered each spring and shown up as seedlings that you didn't sow? These are very good choices. (let's say that your orange marigolds have returned in Spring as volunteer seedlings.......you can then be pretty well assured that gold, or lemon, or African or French varieties will also reseed for you too, when it comes down to it a marigold is a marigold is a marigold). I like Park's Seed catalogue, it has a great germination table right in the middle of the catalogue. They have a numbered guide indicating the best germination requirements for seeds. I took a yellow highlighter and went down that numbered list and highlighted all the numbers that would be appropriate for Winter Sowing, then I carefully went through their list of seeds and highlighted the varieties that corresponded to the correct numbers. This is how I chose which varieties I would Winter Sow. A lot of catalogues, not just Parks, will have a germination table, or some information about germination, look at them, study them, and learn. To make a flat you take the foil container (of course it's clean, washed in hot soapy water) and a paring knife. Stab a few slits in the bottom of the pan, this is for drainage. Now fill the pan with soil to about a half inch from the top. Give it a real good drink and let it drain. I do this in my kitchen. (I have a sprayer on a hose at the sink and I use this for the watering, works well and doesn't gouge out holes in the soil). After the pan has drained sow your seeds and pat them down. Cover them with more soil to the correct depth if necessary. I like growing plants with tiny, tiny seeds, they're really just the very most easiest to sow. Sprinkle them on top of the soil, pat them down, and that's that. Now you need to put the lid on BUT FIRST.........and this is the very most important step.......take the knife and poke several slits in the clear plastic lid. This is for air transpiration. Think about it, you're making a little mini greenhouse. If you don't vent the air that is heated by the sun you'll cook your flat and the seeds won't germinate. You've baked them to death. Okay, put the lid on secure by folding down the foil rim. Now the seeds are sown. Uh oh.......back it up, I forgot a step that you may wish to use: labeling. I didn't label mine as I like surprises, however this concept may pop the heads of gardeners who enjoy having everything "just so". Get some freezer tape, or any tape that you know will work well after being frozen. Pull off a piece and stick it to the bottom of the flat. Write the variety name on it with a laundry marker (or a sharpie). You can do this before or after sowing, if you do it afterwards make sure you wipe the bottom of the flat well as freezer tape doesn't really adhere as good as you'd like to a damp surface. Label the tape before sticking it the bottom of the flat. The label is on the bottom of the flat because the sun can't bleach it down there. I haven't yet found a marker that won't bleach out in my strong Long Island sun. All right, the flat is now sown and covered (with little slits in the top, yes? don't forget!!). Now take it outside to somewhere it will be safe for the winter. I put them on a picnic table top away from my curious puppy. I learned my lesson, I lost a flat of daylilies (the first I sowed this way) because I put them on the ground under a bush and the puppy found them and thought the flat was a toy, and she promptly killed it by shaking it to death. After that all the flats went up on the table out of her reach. Sad loss, but an excellent lesson. Now you just wait it out. When the weather warms the flats will freeze and thaw repeatedly as winter gives way to spring. This action of freezing and thawing out helps loosen the seed coat. You'll often see the term "nick or file seeds prior to sowing" in germination databases: this is to duplicate Mother Nature's work (now you won't have to do that anymore). Amazingly, just when winter is about to break, and you're still getting nightly freezes, the first of your flats will begin to germinate. When I saw this I thought that the seedlings were goners, but they thrived. The seeds know when it's safe to come up, it's part of their genetics. Now is the time to check the moisture in the flats, on an above freezing day open them up and if they look like they need a drink give them one. The excess water will drain away. Don't forget to replace the lids tightly. As your seedlings grow start widening the slits in the covers, once a week or so make the slits a little bit bigger, eventually you'll have more open areas than covered and you'll be able to transplant the seedlings into the garden because they are completely hardened off. I have put in seedlings that barely had their first set of true leaves and they thrived in the ground. After transplant care is typically the same as for indoor sown seedlings. They need a drink and just a little bit of food: 10% strength after their first week in the ground, then increase slowly as the season progresses. After about eight weeks and a few feedings your seedlings will be able to take a full strength feeding. Alternate seed flats: I have used plastic milk jugs and 2 liter soda bottles too, just cut around the middle almost all the way through. Make the drainage slits. Fill with dirt, water, drain, sow, cover with more dirt (the same procedure as above). Tape the cut edges together and simply remove the cap for air transpiration. Cardboard orange juice or milk containers can be used with a baggie. Cut them in half, horizontally or vertically, make the drainage slits and sow your seeds by the same method above. Slip the flat into a baggie, tie it closed with a twist tie or a knot and use the knife to make a few slits for air transpiration, put a few slits in the bottom of the baggie for drainage. Coolwhip tubs: Make the drainage slits, sow your seeds as above. Take a scissors and cut out the center of the lid, leaving about an inch around the inside of the rim. Put a piece of saran wrap over the tub, put on the lid. This holds the saran wrap "window" snugly. Take the knife and make some slits in the saran wrap for air transpiration. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ So that's how to do it, if I remember something that I have forgotten I'll post an addendum, but I think I have it all covered. The major principles of outdoor Winter Sowing are selecting the appropriate seeds for your plant zone, and providing adequate drainage and adequate air transpiration. Do all these and you'll have a success. Did all my flats germinate? NO! I had about eighty or so of these made and I had eight not germinate. Was it the seeds? Was it the method? Was it me? I don't know. But I did have around seventy flats that did germinate. Outside! I forgot to mention that I also used four kiddie pools. These were used the summer before as container gardens (lots of soil, lots of big slits for drainage). I simply direct sowed these and left them uncovered. They got snowed on, the snow melted, it rained while the base of the kiddie pools were still frozen and the rain didn't drain. They all were frozen with ice at least an inch thick.......aarrgghh, panic Panic PANIC....I couldn't do anything about it. When the warmer weather finally came the pools thawed and drained and the seeds came up! YEAH! That's it. As you see it's not hard to do at all and I sowed these flats at my leisure throughout the Winter. Everyone talks about going bonkers in January and February because they can't get out and do any meaningful gardening, and there are only only a few varieties of seeds which can be successfully sown this early indoors....frustration and gardening fever sets in. While all the other gardeners were chomping at the bit I was being self indulgent and playing with dirt and mud and seeds at my own lazy bones pace. I took a leap of faith doing this, I kept the faith, and I was rewarded. I believe in this method, it works, it really truly works. Too much emphasis has been made on indoor sowing under lights. It takes up time, it takes up space, white flies take to the air, damp off kills your effort, your seedlings, your spirit. Did I forget to mention that there was NO EVIL DAMP-OFF? The freezing action killed whatever nasties that are in the soil that cause young innocent seedlings to perish so tragically and so sadly. And it is sad, you take a lot of time and care in your efforts, the seedlings are sometimes almost like our "plant" children. It really is depressing when a flat of seedlings doesn't make it. I encourage everyone to try this Winter Sowing method, if you want to hold back some seeds the first time you try it that's great. Save some seeds to sow indoors of a variety you have placed in a Winter Sown flat, compare the differences in the seedlings, and then the compare plants when they mature. Learn from what you observe. Make your life and garden easy, let it flourish with flowers, grasses, vines, bushes, trees, and vegetables, you thought you couldn't even consider trying before now. Good luck to you all! Trudi Davidoff

Seed trading is a wonderful hobby. It's an excellent way to acquire new garden seeds at a very economical cost, and friendhips between traders are always rewarding. Seed trading can help you fill your seed box quickly with many different seeds, and your garden will be more beautiful than you can imagine because of all the new and exciting varieties you germinate and grow from those seeds. ========================================== How do I start trading? You need to post that you have seeds available to trade. In your post you list your seeds or you ask people to look at your trade list on your GardenWeb member page. You may also add your "wish list" to your post, or add any special information that you would like your traders to know when they trade with you. ====================================== How do I do it? By trading your own seeds! You collect ripe seeds from your own garden, dry them, and remove the chaff if possible...some chaff defies removal. (For general information on how to save your own garden seeds please read the Seed Saving Forum FAQs, there's a lot of good info there and it's simply explained. Seed Saving is very easy to do. =========================================== Package the seeds into seperate labeled packets, and then offer them to trade. The suggested GardenWeb minimum seed count per packet is 24 seeds (two dozen). Some seeds are very rare, or are difficult to collect, or are weighty and costly to mail and because of these reasons you may wish to put less than 24 seeds into a packet. ALWAYS put this information in your very first post when you offer an "under-count" package of seeds. This way there's no "hard feelings" later on, if a trader knows exactly what they're trading for they will be content with their trade. Offer your seeds for trading only after they're made into packets. If you know how many packets of seeds you have to offer you can't "over-trade" them (arranging to trade more packs of seeds than you actually have made). Over-trading is one of the most frequent mistakes that new traders make! It is a major hassle to email someone and cancel a trade. Keep track of your seed packet count to eliminate this pitfall. Someone will ask to trade for your seeds, they'll suggest choices of their seeds to you (or maybe they'll ask you to look at their seed exchange list located on their GardenWeb member page). You tell them what you want to trade for and what you will send them in return. In you emails be very exact about what the trade is....haziness makes for confusion. Here's an example: I will send you these seeds: Crackerjack Marigolds Black-eyed Susans Blue Cornflowers Soldier Beans (12 seeds) In exchange you will send me: Pink Hardy Hibiscus Pony Tails Grass Morning Glory mix Balsam Impatiens mix (Notice that this is an even trade....four for four. Be a polite trader please. Don't ask to trade three packs of your seeds for seven packs of the other trader's seeds...that's greedy and rude. Seed traders are friendly, encouraging, and often quite generous.) Then you exchange addresses. If you can give a zip+four that's great....those extra four numbers help your trade go through the mail very fast. You print a copy of the trade for your records, or save it into a notebook. It's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to keep track of who you are trading with. An easy way to do this is to printout the address correspondence and write on it the day you mailed out your envelope. Save your correspondence in a brightly colored pocket folder. Keep it by your computer and never walk it out of the room!!! If you don't have a printer you can keep track of your trades by writing down the info in a spiral notbook. Use one sheet per trade/sase. Write down the email of the person you're mailing to, what was sent and what is expected in return, and write down the day it was sent. An excellent suggestion is to put a piece of long ribbon through a ring-hole in the spiral binder and TIE IT TO THE COMPUTER TABLE so it can't disappear. When the seeds come in you can look up right away who they're from and send a THANK YOU via email. Then draw a line through the page to indicate that it has been completed....now you're done! I save my "address" emails to a folder in my inbox that I've created called "seed trades". When the seeds come in, I pull up the corresponding letter, and I hit the "respond button" and I say, "thanks, I got the seeds!". Once you say THANK YOU your responsibility is done....all GOOD TRADERS acknowledge the reciept of the other trader's seeds and say thank you. You can then delete the email or move it to another folder called "completed trades". After exchanging addresses you can mail your seeds. The seed packs are carefully wrapped with bubblewrap and placed in an envelope or you can use a padded mailer to send them. You need to cushion them in fat packaging so they don't go through the PO's automatic mail sorting machines. Always make sure that your email address is included with the seeds. If the trade needs to contact you later on the email address is right there for them to use. The post offive will charge a bit more for mailing a fat letter, it is because the letter gets out-sorted into "hand-mail". It's too fat to go through their high-speed mail sorters. The width should always be over a 1/4" thick to keep a letter out of the mail-sorters because these high speed machines will crush the seeds to powder. Bummer. It's courteous to let your trader know when their seeds will be on the way. If you've promised to mail on Monday, but something happened to delay that then email the trader to let them know when the seeds will be mailed...and keep that date! When the other trader's seed arrive look at your saved correspondence about the trade. Open the envelope and check to see that everything is just as promised. If there's a minor glitch (perhaps the wrong seeds were sent or something wasn't included) then when you email your trader to say "thanks for trading" let them know of anything that was amiss. PLEASE do this in a friendly and cordial manner, sometimes we all can get distracted by real life when we're packing our seeds to mail. Keep the the tone friendly, encouraging, and light, and suggest to the trader that on your next trade they can include the forgotten pack of marigolds. Keep everything in perspective...we're just trading seeds....not maseratis or stocks and bonds. Once you've said a "Thank You for Trading" you're done with the trade. Store your seeds where they'll be safe and dry until you sow them, and dream and plan for your new garden and future trades. ===================================== Can you show us an example of a good trade post? Okay.....Let's pretend that "Gardener_Jane" has made a post that she has seeds to offer for trade. The following is her post: Here's my list! All these seeds came from plants that were winter sown or reseeded in my garden. They are all hardy, beautiful, and easy to grow. Perennials Aquilegia (columbine, grape colored flowers) Aquilegia mix (columbines, nice selection from my garden) Asclepias Incarnata (swamp milkweed, pink flowers, will grow in dry dirt) Campanula Latifolia (mountain bells, purple flowers) Campanula Medium (cnaterbury bells...nice mix) Coreopsis Mix (1'-2' mix of strong golden flowers) Hibiscus Militaris (halberd leaved marshmallow) Inula Helenium (inula) Pennisetum alopecuroides 'Moudry' (fountain grass "black moudry") Tanacetum Parthenium (feverfew) Tanacetum Vulgare (common tansy) Vernonia Gigantea (giant ironweed) Annuals Cerise Celosia (celosia...candle type, cherry pink flowers) Cosmos Sulphureus (bright lights cosmos) Daneborg Lace poppy (papaver somniferum, red and white flowers) Morning Glories (lavender) Nicandra Physaloides (aka shoo fly, apple of peru, black pod) Nicotiana Rustica (aztec tobacco, greeny-yellow flowers) Nigella (blue flowers, nice for drying...weird pods!) Veggies and Herbs Italian Parsley Bok Choy Ruby Beets Bright Lights Swiss Chard Soldier Beans (12 seeds per pack) I'm looking to trade for other flower varieties I can Winter Sow in my zone seven garden. I am also interested in growing oriental veggies, ornamental grasses, and roses from seeds. I usually mail seeds out within 48 to 72 hours after making a trade, and I send my seeds protected with bubblewrap. I'd like you to do the same for me please. If you need to make other arrangements all it takes is an email...I'm very flexible. Thanks for looking at my list! Gardener_Jane ============================= Great post Jane ;-) Let's break it down: "Here's my list! All these seeds came from plants that were winter sown or reseeded in my garden. They are all hardy, beautiful, and easy to grow." Jane gives some vital introductory information. Her seeds are hardy for winter sowing, and she says they're lovely and easy to grow. ----------- The list: Perennials Aquilegia (columbine, grape colored flowers) Aquilegia mix (columbines, nice selection from my garden) Asclepias Incarnata (swamp milkweed, pink flowers, will grow in dry dirt) Campanula Latifolia (mountain bells, purple flowers) Campanula Medium (cnaterbury bells...nice mix) Coreopsis Mix (1'-2' mix of strong golden flowers) Hibiscus Militaris (halberd leaved marshmallow) Inula Helenium (inula) Pennisetum alopecuroides 'Moudry' (fountain grass "black moudry") Tanacetum Parthenium (feverfew) Tanacetum Vulgare (common tansy) Vernonia Gigantea (giant ironweed) Annuals Cerise Celosia (celosia...candle type, cherry pink flowers) Cosmos Sulphureus (bright lights cosmos) Daneborg Lace poppy (papaver somniferum, red and white flowers) Morning Glories (lavender) Nicandra Physaloides (aka shoo fly, apple of peru, black pod) Nicotiana Rustica (aztec tobacco, greeny-yellow flowers) Nigella (blue flowers, nice for drying...weird pods!) Veggies and Herbs Italian Parsley Bok Choy Ruby Beets Bright Lights Swiss Chard Soldier Beans (12 seeds per pack) Janes list is organized well, it's in ABC order, and she's included both the common and botanical names of the plants. -------------------------------- "Soldier Beans (12 seeds per pack)" Jane lets us know that this seed pack contains just a dozen seeds because the count is under the GardenWeb suggested miniumum seedpack amount of 24 (two dozen) seeds. ----------------------------- "I'm looking to trade for other flower varieties I can Winter Sow in my zone seven garden. I am also interested in growing oriental veggies, ornamental grasses, and roses from seeds." Jane has suggested what she would like to trade for. She does NOT state that she is ONLY LOOKING FOR THOSE SEEDS so she may be open to other suggestions....you can still initiate a trade even if you don't have what she's looking for and she'll either say yes or no. Never take a trade decline personally. Jane may have a small garden so she only has room for her favorites. ----------------------------- "I usually mail seeds out within 48 to 72 hours after making a trade, and I send my seeds protected with bubblewrap. I'd like you to do the same for me please. If you need to make other arrangements all it takes is an email...I'm very flexible." Jane is letting us know what she does and what she expects. -------------- "Thanks for looking at my list!" Okay....Jane is friendly and she seems to know how to trade. Initiating a trade with Jane will be a good trade experience. =========================================== I don't know the botanical names of my seeds, what should I do? Just make a well described list, that's all. Blue Bachelor Buttons Pink Cosmos Black-eyed Susans 3'annual plant with pink trumpet flowers, likes sun, pretty! Yummy Canteloupes from my Dad's garden Bush Tomato, meaty, sweet, not too acid That's a nice list! ===================== ===================== I see some traders offering seeds for SASE. What's a SASE? A SASE, for those who might not know, is a S - Self A - Addressed S - Stamped E - Envelope You put your own address in the "to" position and the seed sharer's address in the "from" position. The sharer will tell you how much postage is needed. Don't worry if you don't have the exact amount because the stamps you have on hand value a few pennies more. The post office is always delighted to have another nickel ;-) And for 5 cents or so you don't have the hassle of delaying sending out the SASE. Always try to mail SASEs quickly. The sharer is waiting for it to arrive. Whenever someone offers seeds for SASE you email them for the details....no SASE offer is ever the same....and I don't just mean that the seeds are different. What I mean is that everyone who shares their seeds has their own style, and whatever the seed provider suggests is what you should do. There are some standard things that you should always do with a SASE offer. Always write the name of the seeds you are requesting and your email address on the inside of the SASE flap...DON'T seal it! (I've done that a few times, lol.) When the person who shares their seeds gets your SASE s/he will see the list written on the inside flap and know what to put in. The folks who share their seeds do enough work, they shouldn't have to also look up the correspondence to figure out what to put in the envelope. Some seed sharers will ask that you include a piece of bubblewrap, or they'll ask you to use a padded mailer, or they may have the bubblewrap on hand and you don't have to provide it.... or whatever else. There's a lot of differences between traders so their will be lots of differences in the way they share their seeds. Always follow their instructions and provide your email address with the list of seeds you're requesting and you'll get your envelope returned quickly to you. ------------------------ Seed Trading is fun and very easy to do. Please check this FAQ again in the future, I will be editing it and adding more info as I can. The emphasis for the FAQ will always to be making seed trading more fun, more encouraging, and as ALWAYS, with everything associated with Winter Sowing, it should always be EASY TO DO!!!! Good luck with your trades! Trudi Davidoff