mayland, we're going to start trying in the next couple of months, our doc says, "all signals are go!", we "shouldn't have any problems", so we're keeping a positive train of thought - "soon" and not "maybe if". sorry for the ambiguity, hope it wasn't misleading. granted, it's a few years before our kid(s) will start school, but we've already researched and started planning so we can get involved, try to ensure that these opportunities we're seeking out are still around (or are even better) when they're ready to start. i've seen amazing things happen in our area (schools and community transformation) in the ~5 years since my wife and i met, and it's getting better and better week by week. it's proof that, as a community, a small number of individuals can stand up and potentially make anything happen with some effort and support. we are fortunate to have a lot of parents nearby that are willing to work towards building something amazing, tons of neighborhood parent organizations (groups) to join and collaborate, amazing eclectic bunch of people! i'm really active in the nearby community with volunteer work and public safety. i strive to ensure things continue in the positive direction they are headed, and there are plenty of others right there with me. i've recently started diverting my attention towards schools nearby, trying to decide on which direction we're going, what opportunities exist now, what preparations to make to ensure our kids go where we want, etc. there are a lot of choices within 2 square miles of our house...some are up-and-coming, some are well-rooted. my neighbor is a music teacher and has a young boy that has started school recently, so that helps a lot for insider info, nobody seems to know schools better than a teacher that is also a parent :) on the community topic...i have a lot of friends who've moved up here from FL and down from NY, and they've moved a little of everywhere, inside and out. AAMOF, my best friend lives OTP, less than a mile southwest of the Holcomb Bridge exit on 400 (Exit 7?) in a "nice" neighborhood (subdivision), and we regularly engage in discussions about what living out there is like. he is a very social person, but none of his neighbors really care to befriend anyone. they never have block parties. they never have neighborhood cleanup days. they never organize any kind of community building events. they don't have any parent clubs, organizations that he's aware of, and they've been seeking this out nearby for the last 3 years they've been up there, but ... it just doesn't seem to exist. there aren't any parks within walking distance of his house. because of heavy traffic, it's not safe for kids to venture outside of the neighborhood. because nobody really knows or talks to anyone, a burglar could come in with a moving truck and clean out someone's neighbor, and they'd never be the wiser. i personally feel spoiled rotten... we have the zoo just a couple blocks away, a huge park (Grant Park) next to it, they're talking about cutting our main throughfare down to 2-lanes (Boulevard) which should make walking even safer than it already is, work is slated to begin on another 27-acre park a couple blocks south/west of us that will have sports activities, a skateboard park, basketball courts, dog park, large open area for events, walking trails, etc., we get together as a neighborhood all the time, i know and talk to every neighbor 4-5 houses in any direction from us. we have at least 3-4 community building events per year. we regularly have cookouts or get together for drinks with our immediate neighbors, and i know if i ever need anything - whether it's lugging furniture up stairs, working on digging beds in the yard, or rebuilding part of the house, i can call a neighbor and they will help. i let all of my neighbors freely pick our veggies when they're ripe, and we have a community garden with the same policy. it's a night-and-day difference... i'm not saying their case is "everywhere OTP", because there are plenty of places OTP that are more like what we have here in southeast Atlanta. nor am i saying that our case is "everywhere ITP", because we bad/non-community-oriented areas ITP also. i have other friends OTP in Roswell and Sandy Springs with a strong community similar to ours, and they love it - i'd definitely live near them. after living in the city, in our neighborhood - which is far from urban-looking or urban-feeling, and if you couldn't see the skyline through the park, you wouldn't know any better - i just can't fathom the OTP lifestyle some of my other friends have bought into, and, from a purely numbers perspective, i'd say 4/5 of my OTP friends see the same (absence of) community i just described near Holcomb Bridge, whereas 2/3 of my friends from all over ITP have a community somewhere in between ours and theirs, and the remaining 1/3 ITP have the same type of community environment i do now. almost all of us are late-20- and 30-somethings with a few 40-somethings in the mix, very social, very family-oriented, very community-oriented, good 'ol grass-roots kind of people that just ... care, you know? i like to think we're the "norm" of what you'll find in inner-city neighborhoods (although i don't really like the term "inner-city" because it seems to have acquired a negative connotation over the years) so, i'm rambling :) there was a point to the last four paragraphs, and that point was to tie back to what so many others have said above, and tie back to my original post: it's different everywhere, ITP and OTP. within a square mile, you can go from bad community to amazingly good community. as everyone has said, rent first in an area that appeals to you, then drive around and check things out in the months to follow over the 6-12 months of renting, visit local communities that "look" like areas you'd be happy with. drive around during rush hour, and decide if the stores and shops locally are easy enough to get to. try to find community organizations (ask a realtor, any realtor worth a damn knows about neighborhood email lists, etc.) use those to interface with the people that live in the area you want to move to. i think you'll be amazed at how many people will talk to you, Atlanta/Greater Atlanta is overall a pretty friendly place. if you find a dwelling you're interested in, go to the local police precinct with the property address and find out what zone# and beat# the house is in, then request some crime stats for the area over the past 12 months, or hit the crime stats map interface at www.atlantapd.org (it appears down right now), or ask to sit down and with a beat officer for that zone over a cup of coffee and talk to him/her about the area and what you can expect for crime, local activities, surplusses and deficits. nobody knows better than a cop. you may ask one or two, some of our men and women with APD are overworked and a bit jaded - you may inquire who is most knowledgeable, friendly. if you have kids, talk to nearby parents and neighbors, or hit the internet and try to find parent groups - hit your local YMCA or boys and girls club to find parenting groups in that area to get advice of other parents. you could also visit any of the better local schools and try to find parent organizations that way. more than anything, keep your ears peeled for "absolutes". when you hear people speaking in "absolutes" about anything, especially blanket statements about crime/people/schools in an area, take it with a grain of salt. i say this because there are a LOT of misconceptions that have become totally outdated in the last 5-10 years, but people continue to hold on and purvey this info as "fact" to newbies and visitors. this is all assuming, of course, that you plan to stay in the Atlanta area for a decade or two....if you don't, all of this is overkill. even if you aren't planning to stay, hopefully all of this info will be of use to someone out there :) ps - mayland - i love Decatur. we'd have moved there, but my work is in Midtown, my wife works nearby next to Coca-Cola HQ, and traffic to get from Decatur to both areas in the morning was too much. the Grant Park area was our compomise...but i couldn't be happier with the outcome. i still dream of Decatur, and i swear it's not just because you have a Taqueria Del Sol nearby ;)

Yep David and dlynn, I'm looking forward to the cooler weather!! Since it's in the valley, the winters are generally pretty mild though this year was a record breaker for snow. The good thing about being retired and not having kids at home.... we can just watch the snow fall and not be worried about work, school etc!! In Louisiana today it will be 101... 102 tomorrow... and the humidity!!! We just got back from VA and while they thought it was hot it felt like spring to us!! Here's a picture of our new land and the homesite with DH Joe pretending to be a house. our back porch and deck will facing this view. Seems like we're out in the middle of nowhere, but we're a 5 minute drive from the center of town. We just got home from 5 days in VA where we brought up a load of "stuff" and put it in a storage pod. The estimate of 25K (!!!!) o move us to VA (not including our barn and outdoor things) got us so shocked that we decided to start combining our visits with bringing up a load of things in the horse trailer. We had the 3 horse section of the living quarters trailer full with things that we won't need even in a rental... extra garden tools, workshop things, outdoor decorations (birdfeeders/houses etc). It isn't a drop in the bucket, but it's a start! Grace

Thanks for the clarifications! Those were both kind of my guess but I couldn't be sure. I just checked my design and the cabinets don't line up, so "phew!" :D At this point I have no clowns. We're looking at fairly neutral wood floors, white cabs, white appliances, and soapstone counters. I'm thinking the backsplash will be the place to bring in the clown but I can't even begin to think about it yet. I absolutely do not have an eye for this stuff, all I can think about is the fantastic storage space and wide expanses of counters! It's unfortunate this thread has gotten so heated, it's been a wonderful source of information. I have hollow core doors. So what? It's an 80s split foyer, it's never going to be the pinnacle of class. That's part of the challenge of doing the kitchen, not "over designing" it for the house. I want a kitchen that I love and works the way I want and need it to without it looking completely out of place in both the house and the neighborhood. If I'm doing something stupid I want you to tell me! Yes, it stung to have my design torn apart and be told I "couldn't" have the one thing I'd always dreamed of: a cooktop in the island. But instead of storming off I took a long hard look at my design, thought through the REASONS why it was a bad idea, and eventually agreed. Now I have a design I'm even happier about and utmost confidence in it.

I was a young lad during WW2 and not exposed to the injustices of internment. My family lived an isolated life on a small farm during that time and my sister and I were never told about such things. Much later in life when I took a job after graduation, I became acquainted with a Japanese-American who had spent his high school days in an internment camp. His parents were immigrants. They suffered great losses. His Dad "owned" a tract of land in one of the fertile California valleys and was building an vegetable production business. Like many others, he had borrowed heavily to purchase the property and his prospects were bright for earning enough to pay off the mortgage. His bother had a ocean going fishing boat and was building his business. The internment killed their chances at making their mark. When the order came, they had only a few days to close up and pack for camp. They had no time to make business arrangements. The father lost his farm since he could no longer make payments and there was pressure to keep his land in production. The brother thought he had an understanding with someone to hold his boat. The problem was there was no way of predicting when he might return, if ever. He lost his boat. They were devout Buddhists, and while confined, they leaned heavily upon their Faith to retain their sanity. Several other did not fare as well. My friend did get high schooling; I never learned if it was public or not. Larger private gatherings was frowned on. From his description, life in camp was cold and harsh in winter. There never enough of anything. After the War, they were released, but never paid for their losses. His bother could no longer fish as he had no boat and others had filled any gaps he might have been able to enter. That business opportunity was gone. He had to work for others, and jobs for him were meager. After the close of the war, jobs in the US became scarce. Many businesses offer returning servicemen their old jobs, thus displacing the current worker. The same fate met the father. Land was no longer available. The family faced destitution. Somehow, through this tribulation, the family did not develop hatred nor teach hate to their children. Instead, they told their children this was an unfortunate event that would be overcome if they kept their faith. Of course, they were very sad. The family's chance of establishing themselves had been wrecked.