I think I would just eat the cost myself. The DID do the work, so they should be paid. At least you only ordered 40, right?

I think you have every right to at least attempt to get your money back....I mean after all, he discouraged your even trying anywhere else by saying it wouldn't be any better....My Dearly Beloved taught me a long time ago that the squeaky wheel gets the grease or if you don't ask, it isn't going to happen and all you have to lose is someone might say no.........(and if he does, ask for his manager)LOL

The guy was wrong in telling me those were the best quality I was going to get, but on the other hand I did ask him to run off the copies.
But he may have been right in telling you that they were the best copy you were going to get from him, as opposed to telling you that was the best copy you would find anywhere.
Since you requested the copies, I think you should just swallow it. Instead of wasting them, can't they be used? Initially you were going to settle for them.

Sue

If he hadn't said they were "the best you'll get", then I wouldn't, but you can take the new ones and tell him you found out they WEREN'T the best your could get, so you want your money back. Copies cost pennies to make. He won't be losing that much, trust me. I used to work in a copy shop, and we used to giggle about how we charged $1 for a .05 copy.

I'd go ahead and use them... send the best copies to your favorite peeps and the not-so-great ones to the rest.

You know I'd be honest with them and see what they say. Tell them you don't want to them to be out money but at the same token you found a place afterall that can do what you wanted.

Generally, I'd tell you to eat it, but considering your circumstances and that photos are very cheap and often printed and thrown away when not used anyway, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. Heck, they print packages of my kid's school pictures and "then" ask if people want to buy them.

Just be totally honest and ask, what if anything, they could refund you.

Ha! This will probably sound silly, but when it comes to pictures I'm incapable of using any but the best. I would have used the washed-out copies if that's all I had, but once I saw the good ones, that was it. These pics illustrate my son's wedding and my daughter's engagement, among other things.

The guy told me my problem was that my prints were reflecting off the glass of the copier. He said the only way to avoid this result was to bring the collage in as a PDF file (on a flash drive). I knew the Staples copier had produced great copies last year, but this year I was using photos I'd printed myself, so I thought maybe they were the problem.

At the very least, I want to show him the good copies, and suggest that his copier needs adjustment. :-)

You ordered them, even though they were not what you wanted, so you should not ask for money back.

IMO, I think it's wrong to ask for your money back. You knew the quality and ordered them anyway. I think the guy gave you advice based on his equipment. It was your job to shop around before purchase if you wanted something better.

My .02 worth is that you knew what you paid for and received it. Usually if you have to ask if something is ethical; you know in your own mind what is right.....sorry, but I think you need to chalk this one up to experience. :(

My opinion is: You knew what you were receiving when you ordered them. Chalk this one up to experience.

LIL

So you're incapable of using less than the best. OK then. I get that. But you did order 40 of "almost OK" prints. Then you found better.

That's on you. You should have paid for the samples, and gone hunting before ordering.

Refund? No.

I definitely think you should go in, with the poor copies and one of the good ones you got elsewhere. Tell them exactly what transpired, and that the man told you that was the best possible copy. Which you will then prove wrong (gently and politely, of course) with the copy from the second store. If they give you your money back, great. If not, I wouldn't make a federal case over it. But I think you owe it to yourself to give it a shot.

I don't see anything at all unethical about that. On the other hand, dd used to work at Old Navy (for about 10 minutes--LOL). They were open on Easter--because by mid-afternoon, they had streams of people returning the Easter outfits they bought for their children to wear, but didn't ever intend to keep--they just borrowed them for the day and returned them. Now THAT's unethical. But you haven't used the copies, and they really aren't what you wanted.

You know as it transpired in your story... I think it would have been hard for you to not order the original 40.. the guy kind of put you in a tight spot.. If you didn't order then, it probably would have felt to both of you that you thought he was lying or you couldn't trust him. Fact is, later you found out he was wrong and it was a "bad sell" on his end.

I know if I owned a photo store and this transpired I would want the customer to get their money back. Customer service and a good name is way more important in the long haul especially when the shop is probably out only a few cents. You would feel way better about the store and the story you told about them to others would be totally different if they returned your money. They may really prefer the chance to make it right and for you to have a good impression of their store and for you to not be out any money because of their incorrect salesman and inferior product. They may also appreciate the fact that you let them know a better product can be had.

I don't know if "ethical" is the question. Yes, you did order them, but... Maybe a similar experience I had could help you find a better way around it (and this is pretty much what Carla is suggesting):

I went to a Kinko's/FedEx copying shop and used the self-serve color copier to copy some pages from a library book. The color copies were terrible--the colors were really off from the original (these were pages of colorful quilts). Reds were looking close to dusty; the blacks looked brownish. I noticed that a light came on that said one of the color containers needed to be changed. The salesperson said, "Oh don't worry about that--it goes on all the time, it's OK." "But it's not," I told him, showing him the results. So he agreed to change it. Took him forever. Next copy--still the same thing (did he REALLY change the color container?).

He played with the settings; no go. He kept telling me that those were high-tech machines and there was no way it could get better, that color copy machines will not get you exact color matches. I asked for my money back for the copies that were terrible.

And I went to Staples (some are better than others!). Perfect self-serve color copying machine. Reds were beautiful reds, blacks were blacks.

So I wrote a letter to the head of Kinkos/FedEx telling them that their machines and salesclerks' training were extremely disappointing and also that Staples surpassed them. The chief executive promptly wrote back. (I haven't been back).

Of course, I wasn't out any money.

Here's my suggestion: Take the excellent copies you got from the 2nd shop back to the 1st shop and speak to the manager (hopefully it's not the person who was your salesclerk). Explain that you were terribly disappointed with their results and that there is another shop that surpasses their quality, and ask them how they think they can win your business back (even if it's just once a year). During the discussion, you can ask them if they will refund your money. (It's not like you're holding something over their heads.)

As Carla's written, most quality places want the chance to reach customer satisfaction.

Buyer's remorse on something that no one else can use is not reason enough for a refund.

Taking the comment of the clerk as a guarantee and questioning his honesty is not good enough a either.

Every sales person will tell you his is best. If you had some remodeling done, were happy with it at the time and then found out someone did nicer work for example you couldn't go back and ask for a refund. You signed off on those prints being acceptable to you after seeing the results. Just because you found someone who can do it better is not good enough. Eat the 17 dollars and consider it a lesson in making sure you are getting what you want from the start.

Well said Wildchild

The decider for me here is this: You saw what you were getting, were apprehensive about it but still ordered 40. No way is it proper to try to return them. If you didn't like them, you shouldn't have taken them in the first place but you said you wanted something to take home. You were out to buy, not get what you wanted. That's not the store's fault. Nobody twisted your arm or put a gun to your head here.

I'm all for holding retail accountable too but I'm amazed how people will go out, buy clothes, wear them to a one-time event and return them. Or buy a computer to do a report and return it. Or buy a nailgun and roof their house and return it. Or drive off without paying for gas. And expect the business to eat the loss.

One of my dad's favorite lines was "chalk it up to good experience". That's what should be done here. Instead of wanting something to take home, next time maybe it'd be better to decide if it's really what you want. As someone else in the forum said one time, it's time to "put on your big girl pants" and take responsibility for your own actions.

You made a poor decision. Take responsibility for your choice and eat the cost.

I agree with cynic and wildchild. Ethical IS the question and what you are proposing is VERY unethical.

Thank you for the many responses. I agree with most of them, even when they conflict with each other, which was why I was on the fence. What I'll probably do is return to the store to show them the better copies, but not ask for my money back. This will at least satisfy my desire to take some action. If they offer a refund, great. If they don't, that's okay, too. Either way, lesson learned.

It wasn't a photo store, BTW; it was a shipping store. Another lesson: If you want good copies, go to a printer or a copy center.

Cynic, I suggest you be cautious about telling someone in real life to put on her big girl pants. Or maybe you wouldn't dream of doing that in real life.

I think you've made the right decision but I also don't agree that you were questioning doing something unethical. Maybe you aren't entitled to a refund but I don't think it's 'unethical' to ask (I hardly picture you going in there and making a demanding scene!) You weren't planning on lying to the business, you weren't going to end up with something for nothing (you didn't get any use out of the pictures). Some businesses actually want their customers to be happy and would rather make things right than have a customer walking around with a bad opinion of them.

Interesting read and lots of advice. I agree with your plan, Susan and would do the very same thing that you are planning. At least you'll be doing the first place a service that they need- you'll let them know that their copies are inferior to their competition's and they'll know they have to work harder to keep you, if it's at all possible. They really won't want you telling everyone how unhappy you are, either. I bet they'll make it right.

Oh, I make a lot of copies because I sell a few different sewing patterns. I go to the nearest UPS store for my copies and they make much better and more reasonably priced ones than the Kinkos. MUCH BETTER copies, especially the color ones- they use better paper for starters.

Gee, this is a tough one. The first store did try to fill your order. I would pay them. Seventeen bucks isn't a lot. And it may help keep them in business. It's not like they ripped you off on purpose."The customer is always right" doesn't always apply. Good luck whatever you do.

I have held back with my response because I thought it would offend and having read the responses I've learned something too.

I really like the idea of taking in the two copies, one from each store, to show the difference. A salesperson speaking on behalf of the store has a responsibility to the customer as well as being a sales person. That person would be safe in saying 'this is the best copy that I am able to print in this store'. Assuming that it's the best copy in town is another matter. I do agree in part with you made a decision to buy after seeing the copy.

I really like the idea of speaking to the manager. The salesperson made a statement on behalf of the store. The manager should know so that the manager can speak to that person to educate them on a better response.

I've been sitting on the fence with you after reading your question because it made me think of what to do if that happened to me. I always like a win/win situation in the end. Finding something positive out of that experience.

Then there is the cliches of 'buyer beware', 'shop around first' vs 'pressure sales'.

I like your idea of how to handle this situation after considering all the responses. Maybe I can come down from the fence now too.

You are a winner in this with your final decision.

And thank you to everyone for their 2 cents - you made me think as well.

Cheers,
Peggy

This has been a very interesting thread; I think the responses gave us a chance to think about what we would do if we were in that type situation.

Phyllis

You ordered them, knowing what the quality was. The fact that you found somewhere else with a better quality machine doesn't excuse you from the first purchase.

Quality depends on the machine. Some places have better, more expensive copiers than others. You can't hold one up to be the other.

I see no point in returning to the store. Do you plan to use their service again, now that you have a better resource? There's no point in 'giving the manager a chance to make you a satisfied customer', is there?

You are the proud owner of several months supply of scratch paper. You ordered and paid 40 cents a sheet for it. YOU made a mistake. The paper is yours.

This is not to say I don't JUST HATE IT when *I* make a hasty decision that costs me money!

I don't think this is the same thing as buying a dress or nail gun and wearing/using it and then returning it. Of course that is wrong. This is more like buying a dress, finding a better one and returning the unworn dress you don't like as much. Even if you took the dress in the dressing room and tried it on. That's fine. It's hard here because the items are non sellable to someone else...but they probably cost pennies and if you are really not going to use them, their return policy may state that you can return any you don't like.

Just because you took the time to check the sample doesn't mean that you later can't change your mind...similar to trying that dress on but still finding a better one later. It's a weird situation because the product is so unique than most we are familiar with (there's a very small cost but it can't be resold) so although it may not be right, it's definitely not the same thing as using something and returning it; I wouldn't even compare the two.

Think about it...For most sales, if the item is not used, buyers DO have the right to buyer's remorse and can return it. Heck, you even have 72 hours or something to return cars, etc.. My friend returned some monogrammed towels because they were a bad quality. Changing your mind and returning unused products is general not unethical. I really think some of these business calculate this cost into their business policy. And, I'm sure hundreds of thousands of photos are printed and tossed daily; it's very cheap for them. If you're not happy with them; you're not happy.

I think what you decided to do is a good idea. That way it puts the ball it their court... Let us know what they say.

The man said it was the best they could do, and the best I would find anywhere.

I don't think she would have made the Hasty decision if the salesman/clerk hadn't made the above statement to her....She took him.

Are you saying the clerk knowingly misled her - that he really knew the other store was out there giving better quality?

She opted to take him at his word. She gave him that power, he didn't force it on her.

And the dress example - returning an unworn dress that can be resold is one thing. What if you liked the dress, ordered 10 more for your bridesmaids and then decided you didn't like them?

I don't think cost is the issue here. Morality is. Is it OK to stiff someone for your hasty decision because it only cost pennies, not dollars?

Do what you think is right. If you thought this was OK, you wouldn't be asking the question.

And one thing - it is as much about the machine as the operator. You can take the photos back to the store, but they may never be able to reproduce the quality you found elsewhere, based on the equipment they have.

Our company just purchased an $800,000 copier because the quality it produces was more desirable than the cheaper equipment we were leasing.

No one expects a Volkswagon to perform like a Ferrari.

I would not return them, I might stop in with a sample of each and show them to the owner or manager, but I would not expect nor would I accept a refund. I would consider it on me because I chose to accept them, it's a small amount of money and I don't think the shop should suffer because of my error. This is personalized, it is not like they can resell the item.

"I don't think cost is the issue here. Morality is. Is it OK to stiff someone for your hasty decision because it only cost pennies, not dollars?"

How is she 'stiffing' them? It is their choice to give her the money back, just as she made a choice to have the copies made in the first place. Many said that no one forced her to buy the copies and she is in no position to force them to give her the money back. They gave her an option (to take the lousy copies) and now she is giving them an option (to refund her money for the lousy copies). I'd hardly call making that request immoral unless she is offering some additional favor to get her money back LOL.

If they want to be in the copying business, even if it's not their primary business, they should appreciate the feedback even if they don't wish to refund her money.

tally, Yes, someone can order 10 dresses they like and return them all. The 2 main problems bridal stores have are that the people wear the dresses and try to return them or they alter the dressees (making them used), so bridal stores often have a no return policy... but I've known people who have been able to return new unworn dresses or at least can get store credit for other dresses. Or, you can buy 10 dresses in Macys women's dept. and return them all no questions asked.

"She opted to take him at his word." (And his word was wrong- that's unethical in most business practices). He may not have knowingly mislead her -- but, bottom line, he mislead her. Plus, unless the conversation was part of the policy and practice, her looking at a sample was for her benefit, not theirs.

If she just took them in, had them run all 80, noticed the bad quality, had them printed elsewhere, and returned them, we wouldn't be having this conversation and we'd think it was fine. But, because she took an extra step for herself, now she's unethical?

People can return products, photos, etc. that they don't find acceptable. There are laws put in place so that people are able to return things. I returned a batch of Christmas Cards years back a store did for me one year... They were awful quality. The store apoligized and not only gave me money back, but ran me others free of charge.

And, I do think it matters that the photos cost pennies, not dollars. With customer service, cost does matter. With questionable returns, etc sometimes deals are made based on the costs. Companies will decide to sell the product to the customer at cost...which in this case may be 37 cents instead of the $17. Whereas a dress on the other hand may be $28 for a $42 dress. There's a difference in how much you are expecting them to compromise/eat.

I would like to confront the store clerk with the fact that those were not the best copies available (whether he already knew this or not).

There's a chance this would stop him from misinforming the next customer. If not, nothing lost.

I might show the manager too. You never know, he/she might offer a refund without you asking for it.

Also, this may not be their first complaint, and after seeing the better copies they might adjust their copier or consider upgrading.

Anyway, hindsight is 20-20. You didn't give up, and you found a better place.

Carla, by placing her order she accepted the quality. Period.

The photo paper isn't "unworn" (don't know why you're so hung up on dresses). It had her photos stamped on it. That makes it unsaleable to anyone else. Plus the time to manufacture them.

BTW, immoral means wrong. It doesn't have to have a sexual connotation if thats what you were trying to imply.

You can stick to the dress analogy all you want - but if you accept a prototype and then order it made, it's unethical and immoral, IMHO to decide you want to return it because you found something you liked better.

She shopped for price. She accepted what was offered, she special ordered copies to be made based on the sample she was given. The store did their job. The store clerk offered his opinion - to suggest thats unethical is just ludicrous. That's putting every salesperson in the country on notice they can't offer an opinon about their product.

It's up to the buyer to decide if they want to believe it.

This is buyer's remorse, plain and simple.

It wouldn't surprise me if the store gave her back her $17 just to make the customer happy. That doesn't mean it's right.

As you said, it won't hurt to try;

I'd show both sets to the the manager at the first place & tell him I wanted my money back because I was dissatisfied with the quality of his product *which was represented to me as the best available*.

I agree. You chose the quality, of the three samples, and then ordered. IMO your loss. You didn't get samples from different places before you ordered. you chose to accept the opinion of one person, then in addition you ORDERED 40 more.

I've gotten stuck with some "less then quality prints" under the same circumstance before. After that I remembered to keep my name on the mailing list of my favorite Stationary Store, so when business caused them to move again, I GOT NOTICE.

Last week a dying dog, this week personal responsibility.

Values are coming through loud and clear on this forum with all the "interesting" replies. The river de Nile certainly flows freely here at the KT.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Gee, that was constructive, Wildchild. Clearly, it galls you that we can't all attain your standard of perfection. Look at it this way: Those of us who don't agree with you at least give you an opportunity to be judgmental.

Can we assume the "Happy Thanksgiving" was said in derision like the rest of your post?

No I am not perfect at all. I take responsibility for my imperfections. If I make a mistake I don't try to get others to validate it. That is the difference. It's a self-respect thing, my value system. No one elses.

I have learned a lot more about posters here by their answers than I have by their posts. But I don't have an investment in virtual peeps so it really doesn't matter. People who get me matter and people who don't, don't matter.
But I don't hate anyone and I don't wish them ill.

No Happy Thanksgiving was not a derision. But you can assume what you like.

I'm going to assume that you know that,
1. Different copiers have different results.
2. Salespeople don't always speak the gospel truth.
You ordered anyways. You now have $17 worth of scratch paper. Time to move on.

Blitzy: Are you saying that when you got less-than-quality photo prints, you just paid, said "Thank you" and went home thinking "Oh, too bad I made the decision to get my photos done there. My bad"? I expect quality work for my money--and I have rejected bad photos at the CVS--whether bad prints or when working with their PictureMaker machines. Quality stores stand behind their work.

And to LindaKathy and others who raise this point about salespeople: So are we all to assume that all salespeople are like the bad stereotype of a used-car salesman? I expect them to know their business -- and their competitors'. And if he didn't--maybe he was a low-wage hourly employee--he had no business saying that, because then he just turned into someone just wanting to make the sale and not someone concerned about a customer's satisfaction. There are salespeople in this world who will tell you honestly that he/she doesn't know the answer to your problem but that he'll call the manager. This guy didn't.

Alisande's salesman basically told her it was the best quality she would find ANYWHERE. That's called pressuring the customer. She relied on his "expertise" to make the purchase--don't many of us do that when we're hiring a painter or a contractor or a health-care aide, who you've gotten good references for?

But she should go back to find out why the quality between the 2 shops was so different and make sure that it wasn't because her salesman didn't know how to make the proper brightness adjustments. That store wouldn't still be in business if they turn out poor copies all the time, so I have to believe this wasn't solely the fault of a worse machine. And the store owner or manager needs to know that he or she is losing business over this -- whether the owner volunteers to refund her money or not (and in my book, if I were the shop owner, I'd be PO'd that I was beaten by another shop and do whatever it takes to get another chance with a customer).

When I first read this post late last night I wasn't sure what to answer. It was late and I still had a few things to clean up before bed and I was tired. But this morning my thoughts seem clearer.

Taking the prints back to the store and showing both sets to the manager and explaining exactly what transpired isn't unethical. It's business.

I wonder what Randy Cohen, the New York Times columnist who writes the Ethics feature would say. It's one of my favorites read in the NYTimes. I think you should send this query along to him.

Maire

Here's a better dress analogy: You go to a tailor and have a sample dress custom-made. They do one, it's critiqued and a couple more are made, you approve it and order more of the custom-made dresses. Then find a place that does it "better", cheaper or in a fabric you like better. Or you have buyer's remorse of any other type. I'm curious if you feel it right to return them and say they said I couldn't get it better elsewhere? Not in my opinion. And saying it only costs pennies to make the dresses won't cut it either IMO.

Without a recording of the conversation it's hard for a 3rd party to know what was actually said and if there were contractual representations made. Sometimes a frustrated customer can remember things in a different way and nobody knows if that's the case here or not. When I was in direct retail you wouldn't believe what was supposedly told to people trying to return things, or get credit because they didn't get good enough gas mileage! LOL

And Alisande, I'll take your suggestion in accordance with how I value it, thank you. :) And given that in the past it's been shown to me that age alone brings neither wisdom nor maturity I'll likely continue to suggest that people take responsibility when applicable, in real life, email or on a forum as appropriate.

I would not take them back. The guy showed you the 3 samples and you knew what you were getting. It was your choice to go ahead and order. Sadly, this makes you $17.00 less in you pocket. As my daddy always said take it as a lesson learned.

Yeah, you caught me wildchild

My values are so bad... Wanting the poster to tell the truth and let the company decide for themselves how they would like to handle...what was I thinking?

If I had better values like you I would just innately know how the company would want to handle and that they wouldn't want to be bothered with it and that they would think I was only trying to take advantage of them.

Thanks for sharing your values/opinion. It makes those of us ashamed that we even thought of a bigger picture or thought that maybe the company may want a say.

I've learned in life that sometimes the way you expect others to react and treat you is the way you treat others. I can honestly say, if I were the manager, I would want this customer to come back in with the photos (for many reasons) and I would probably gladly give her money back or give her some type of deal. Maybe that says something about my values; I'm not sure. Maybe you could evaluate it and let me know.

It's not a black and white, right or wrong issue. It's a business and a customer, and believe it or not, if she goes back in, they "could" both come out ahead and both be winners. The way it stands now...neither will benefit -- The customer is out money, hates her pics, and the company will probably never see her business again.

Well, I know I said basically "suck it up" in a previous post, and I will stand pretty much by that.

I don't, however, see any issue with taking in the better prints and suggesting the original shop should do a better job of printing. That's a valid comment to the management. They can refund or not - their choice.

BUT -- Alisande SAW the copies. She was NOT pleased. And yet she ORDERED 40 more. That's her problem, not the shop's problem. I would not request or expect a refund in this circumstance.

I don't think it's worth $17. to worry about it. You knew what you were getting. I'd chalk it up to experience and forget it. $17. isn't much. Forget it and get on with something more important.

"They can refund or not - their choice"

No, not really. A complaining customer is almost always going to get their money back, whether they are in the right or not. Retailers are put in a box that way, much as they might like to tell the customer ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

Givng a customer back their money doesn't mean the store didn't do it's job - it's just less of a hassle especially when dealing with someone who is unreasonable. I once had an elderly woman return a very expensive garment with the tags still on but a very strong odor. Upon questioning her, she confessed she bought the dress to lay out her dead sister for viewing and wanted her money back because the tags were still on it so "it wasn't like it had really been worn". The dress was unwearable, but we gave her the money, because you know the customer is always right.

And you know who pays for all those customer is always right decisions, don't you? We all do. Writeoffs are part of the markup.

Thank you Cynic. That is kind of the point I was trying to make with special ordering 10 bridesmaids dresses - you just framed it better than I did :)

You are so right Tally. DH worked a retail job for a couple of weeks when he was out of work. Big box place. The rule was even if the customer brought back a tool that was obviously used, even if it was missing parts and the customer obviously damaged it you gave that customer back his/her money.

So this IS a question of ethics. It IS unethetcal to try to return something you bought and planned to use until you found something better if the item isn't able to be resold at it's full value to someone else.

Ethics are values and I'm not about to get into a debate over mine. If I hit some nerves......well cry me a river.

I'm sick of the world pretending that liars aren't liars and cheats aren't cheats.

We all end up paying for this kind of thing in higher prices. After clerks dealing with the self-entitled customers all day It's the honest customer pays the price in the end.