It's great that you accomplished getting to a layout that works for you. Only one thing stands out to me. What is the purpose of that 30" pantry? You have the nice shallow depth pantry by the window. Plus, there's a mudroom/garage which always has room for extra storage. I don't know your aisle clearances so this may not work but did you look at eliminating the 30 pantry and putting the frig over there? Then you have a greater expanse of space by your cooktop. For me, prep space was a driving force in my design.

I think it looks like a really big kitchen with not very much counter space, but I'm not really sure where to put more prep space. If you can't move the fridge, can you put a cabinet/countertop between the fridge and the door? Just as a landing for things coming from the fridge to the table? Or delete the 30" pantry and keep it as counter space, since you have the big pantry?

We did the same thing you're doing - moved our kitchen to where our family room was, and took out a wall and a fireplace...

Here is the elevation of that wall:

{{!gwi}}

I don't think I want the refrigerator that far from the table, but I'll definitely think about adding counter space to that pantry. It's to be the dish place ... the tags on the elevation aren't permanent, though. I'm not sure if we have room for all the dishes and glasses and TV if we pull that cabinet up and create counter, but perhaps we do.

A few things bother me about this plan. The dw and range doors will conflict when open. Anyone setting the table while the cook makes dinner will squeeze past the cook and back to get dishes to the table. Lots of conflict between the cook and anyone clearing the dishwasher and putting dishes away.

As a start, I would put the dw on the right side of the sink and swap the dish storage and fridge. I know you say this is too far from table to fridge, but it separates your cleanup and cooking zones, eliminating a lot of the cross-traffic. Plus, you already have fridge and freezer drawers in the bfast bar, which is semi-handy to the table and to those wanting snacks, so I'd dedicate the main fridge to the cooking zone.

You could also put the fridge where the Advantium is and Adv where you show dish storage, so you won't be crossing the garage entrance with hot foods. I'm leaning toward leaving the Adv where it is, but not quite sure...Maybe 60/40 at this point.

Are you planning 2 DW's or is that a mistake? If you're having 2, I'd definitely put one on each side of the sink.

Where does trash go if DWs flank sink?

I'm not too concerned about DW and range doors conflicting when open ... that doesn't happen at the same time very often. Same with advantium door and traffic from the garage/back area.

I do share the concern with cleanup and cooking zones generally in the same area, though. Will think about moving the refrigerator. I guess it depends on what we put in each refrigerator ... plus there is the wine/beverage thing in the island.

Still don't know about trash though. I guess it could go in the end where the second DW is now?

My dishwashers flank the sink with the trash across the aisle. Works great. So that's one possibility, but also, you have an 8 ft island, so with 4 ft of dishwashers and 3 ft of sink cab, you have 1 ft remaining. You could maybe eek out another 6" (maybe 3" on each side) to fit in an 18" dbl trash pullout. I find it most important to have the trash close to the prep area (1st priority), and the sink...Not a big deal for us at all that it's not close to the table.

You won't be able to reach the end dw from the sink. Also, we like the flexibility we have when we can load both dw's at once, which is impossible with the above layout.

Have you given consideration to switching the runs? That is; having the fridge & range along the window L and the large pantry & MW along the other wall?

How far up from the floor is that large window?

Does the armoire need to stay?

Could you move the breakfast bar move to where the armoire is? Move the dish pantry to the other pantry wall(taking the advantium space and shifting everything else down) and then put additional pantries(if necessary) where the breakfast bar was. Or make the armoire space additional pantry storage.

It does seem that you have a very large room and everything is taking place in the lower half.

Can clean up go where the large pantry wall is? And then tall pantries where the armoire is?

Congrats on your new remodel

Your "suddenly concerned about layout" is something we have all suffered from and gone through - in your case, may not be what you want to hear at this point (suggestions for changing), but nonetheless all is well intended - at the end of the day it's your remodel/kitchen/new space & $$ so you will do what you feel is right.

Hmmm
Scrolling up/down & up/down again -
It's a large kitchen but I think it could be much more functional than currently laid out -

Here are a few things that came to mind immediately
-As you mentioned not enough counter space -
- Large area but everything seems pushed to one end
- 3 seating zones is taking up a lot of space - the table especially seems squeezed and is in the busiest place in the kitchen - I personally find a table located as far away from work zones best. looking at the posting of the elevation plan of what I think is posted as "TV" on initial is not showing depth - creating another concerning for "squeezing" in that area - If the TV is sitting high in that cab I'm not sure who/how that will be viewed. Adding the doorway posted seems like a place for constant congestion (although I don't know where the door leads) - The mudroom/powderoom door/hall is another area that lands straight into the work zone - If I recall correctly Rhome may have the workflow/traffic patterns down to a science -
The island is large, but doesn't offer usable counterspace for prep
I wonder how it would be to have sink, dw, and fridge on the pantry wall - that will give you big expansion in prep/cleanup, counter, put pantry on armoire wall, shrink island a bit -esp on the 8' width, add counter & lower cab/drawers to left of range - cookware storage/utensils easy access
In general the kitchen seems way too heavy on one side - if this is a gut - I would work for a better flow & floorplan - it's a large space but not as efficient as it could be

?'s to ask yourself
- What is the purpose of remodel - what do you like/dislike about your current space, what are your goals for the remodel
- How much current counter space do you have - calculate sq footage - does the current plan accomplish your initial goal of remodel
- How many people in a typical day utilize the kitchen
a- # of cooks
b. - # of people eating
**will that change in the next 5 yrs or so (kids going to college)

- How often do you cook? How many people cook at one time?
- How often do you entertain? and how many people typically
- Do you really need a island w/seating, breakfast bar, and table/chairs?
- Where will everyday dish/glasses be stored in current layout - how far are they fr. DW
- Where will pots/pans/utensils be stored
Will ck in later - hope some of the information is helpful
GL

The window comes down to 18" off the ground, so that's why there is nothing in front of it. I like the sink there in the island, because it's kind of like having a window in front of the sink.

I should have taken the armoire off the plan; it isn't there anymore. It does need to stay in the room, but we're putting it where it says "TV" ... we will keep our outside dinnerware and patio cushions in it, among other kitchen storage, so it is sort of a pantry (in fact, I use it right now as a pantry in my kitchen). It's an antique piece that we want to keep, and it doesn't really go anywhere else (we tried). We will most likely put another antique piece, a smaller chimney cabinet, in that corner, so it will also serve as storage, probably for serving pieces and table linens.

We didn't put any other kitchen "stuff" into the breakfast area because I wanted more of a buffer between the kitchen and the living room. We might even turn the breakfast area into more of a sitting room one of these days, or at least add comfy seating to the table instead of wooden chairs. Plus, we will have the antique pieces there, as unfitted storage.

As for putting cleanup along the large pantry wall ... hmmm. So I'd basically switch the advantium and the dish pantry, and put a dishwasher over on that wall. I still need to put some food over there, though; is that weird?

It seems like it's a great big room, but it's really two rooms. It's hard to see from the plan, though. The kitchen and breakfast room will have different ceilings.

The pros of the current plan are that everything is close together. Also the cons. :-) We don't usually have that many people cooking at once, or cleaning while I'm cooking ... so I'm just trying to weigh it all. Thanks SO much for the ideas, and I'll play around a little more.

Another thought...have you considered moving the table in front of the large window, narrowing and lengthening the island and maybe shifting it to the right slightly so you don't walk directly into it, as jejvtr pointed out. Although now I see you posted that from a design perspective this may not work.

OK...what about making the island longer and narrower and running it vertically? Maybe put the clean up sink at the northern end and a prep sink at the southern end near the frig? Maybe store dishes, etc. in some of the space you have marked for food and put cooking pantry items in the pantry you currently have marked for dishes.

Or...do 2 islands. A smaller prep island near the frig and a larger clean up/seating island near the window. Then you wouldn't have to walk around an island when coming in from the garage. This is just for a visual of 2 islands.

Sorry for the rambling.....

We were all typing at the same time: just to clarify, the breakfast bar is not seating. It's a hutch with refrig/freezer drawers, coffee maker, etc.

The remodel is sort of a gut, except we are working with a few things that can't be moved, like the window, the door to the garage/mud room, the vaulted ceiling ...

As for moving the island, if it goes any farther to the right, it "leaves" the kitchen and enters the nook (that is where the ceiling vault ends). Design-wise, we don't want to do that.

I am not concerned with the traffic flow around the island in from the garage. (You should see it now! Ack -- we have to walk through what is now our family room, so fitting furniture and a walkway is a nightmare.) In actuality, the island is no longer 78", either; it's more like 72", which helps a bit.

The table in the nook is okay; there is a lot of room there (the drawing is off by a couple of feet) and the doorway is into the living room, which has another opening up by the foyer, so traffic is possible there but by no means is there very much. This is the back of the house.

(As I said, the current traffic flow is ridiculously poor, which is one reason we are moving things around -- but my threshhold of acceptability is probably lower than some. Looking at the entire floorplan, I'm quite happy with the traffic patterns.)

I like where the TV is behind the doors; it's high, but you can see it from island or table seating, and it won't be on that much anyway.

Usable counter space is really my main issue ... "I wonder how it would be to have sink, dw, and fridge on the pantry wall - that will give you big expansion in prep/cleanup, counter, put pantry on armoire wall, shrink island a bit -esp on the 8' width, add counter & lower cab/drawers to left of range - cookware storage/utensils easy access"

This is probably what I will explore.

I think if you move the sink and DW to the pantry wall, you could leave the frig where it is. Put a prep sink in the island and it should be ok.

Both of these are explorations of moving the living room door. People above have lots of good thoughts about your layout.

I am hoping this doesn't come out sideways, but I'm looking at your posts and thinking of myself. Sometimes taking in a critique of something I spent a lot of time on is hard and I defend it instead of hearing what's being said and deciding if it has merit. It must be the season, cause I did it yesterday(about software) and then watched somebody else defend their design(also software) even tho it didn't work.

I can't speak for everyone, but I want you to have the best kitchen evah. And I want it to be your kitchen, not my kitchen. When I see "stuff", I draw answers. I hope the drawings will lead to new thoughts. I like the second one a lot for your space.

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

Thanks for the designs ... that second one would be spectacular, if I were willing to use the entire space. However, I do not want the appliance part of my kitchen butted up next to the living room, period, nonnegotiable. To me, that is a more major issue than having my dishwasher in a less than perfect spot.

I understand what you are saying about being defensive, but sometimes we "defend" our designs because there are reasons it ended up that way, and for me it is the separation of the kitchen and the living room.

It's more of, "Yeah, we already tried that, but it didn't work because of x, y, or z." Or, "that doesn't bother me ... I've thought about it and it isn't a problem with the way things work around here."

I didn't come up with the original plan, so I have no emotional attachment to it. :-) I asked for negative feedback, so I'm fine with receiving it. Some things I just don't think are as negative as others do ... and other things I agree with.

To the possible changes: If we move a sink and DWs into that pantry wall, I will lose basically a bank of storage drawers (to the sink cabinet), overall, correct? So that's the tradeoff.

It would look roughly like this -- except no sink outside the window; not sure how it ended up there ;-) _

If you like Bmore's 2nd plan, what about turning the sink in the island into the clean up sink. You could make the area to the right of the big window dish storage and you could make the area against the living room wall tall pantry storage and put the advantium in there. You could take the current elevation of the pantry wall and move it over there. Not sure if you still feel that would be like having an appliance against the LR wall.

If that doesn't work for you, then I like your above proposal. I like the separation of the clean up and cooking areas. Are you going to keep a sink in the island for prepping?

With the last plan, I would put the dish storage down by the windows, so the cleanup area wasn't block from the cooking area by the tall unit. I like to easily get things that need cleaning out of my cooking area by depositing them in the cleaning zone. With this plan, the cleanup sink is 12 ft from the stove, and working around the dish hutch to get to the counter. My suggestion would move the sink closer and make the counter to that area more accessible. Right now it seems to me that it would feel like the cleanup area is in a different room.

If you handwash all of your cooking utensils and pots & pans (which I sure don't), maybe it'd be OK.

Mahlgold.....where are those pictures from that you posted? I love that banquet and fabric...infact I love the whole kitchen.

Sorry for the hijack!

Positano-email me at malhgold at optonline dot net and I can send you some additional pics and info.

segbrown

Is it possible to post pics of your existing space that may help many here understand the layout and issues better & better help you.

Is it the visual of living room & appliances or other reason? My reason for asking is that in my mind I'm picturing it aesthetically fr. LR that the appliance on the LR would be less noticable - in other words stand in LR you would be looking at the mud/powder/hall wall not the wall that butts up to... but I can't get my eyes/mind around it. I also can't visualize the door on the SZ wall that is to the LR? so the LR wraps around that whole space?

Given the LR issue I would also opt to have the range on an exterior wall to give optimum venting - a 48" range needs a powerhorse to get the steam/odors up and out. But now on 2nd,3rd ,4th look I don't see an exterior wall -

keep up the brainstroming as much work and tedious nature of this it seems (it is!) you will be thankful that you spent much time really figuring the details out. Many here have used boxes to offer 3d of the space and/or blue tape to mark off where things will be that to is quite helpful

GL!

The current room is hard to picture; the big window is the constant.{{!gwi}}

What we are doing is taking out the wall behind the TV armoire and removing the fireplace. The current dining room is on the other side of that wall. This room (future kitchen) is vaulted (door pictured is the one to the mudroom/garage area).

the dining room (future nook) is not.

When we take down the wall, we're moving rooms around. I don't have an entire house floor plan, but I'll roughly notate this one of the first floor so you can see what is to go where; it's actually upside down of the kitchen plan posted.

Here is the front of the house; you can see where the window and vault are.

DOes that help at all? I am adamant about keeping the nook free of built-in furniture, partly because I want to be able to change its function (might throw a love seat and chair in there instead of a table someday).

"Is it the visual of living room & appliances or other reason? My reason for asking is that in my mind I'm picturing it aesthetically fr. LR that the appliance on the LR would be less noticable - in other words stand in LR you would be looking at the mud/powder/hall wall not the wall that butts up to... but I can't get my eyes/mind around it."

There are a few reasons: I want a physical buffer between the living room and the working part of the kitchen, just because. Noise, smells, whatever. And I might want to make the nook more of a sitting room one day. Plus, I don't really want the greater part of my first floor being a big huge kitchen.

The view part is okay ... yes, when you're standing there, you can see the kitchen, but the furniture will be oriented so that you can't really see when you're sitting. We checked that out.

"I also can't visualize the door on the SZ wall that is to the LR? so the LR wraps around that whole space?"

That door is to the backyard.

"Given the LR issue I would also opt to have the range on an exterior wall to give optimum venting - a 48" range needs a powerhorse to get the steam/odors up and out. But now on 2nd,3rd ,4th look I don't see an exterior wall -"

Yes, the range is on the exterior wall.

so which layout are you leaning towards at this point?

LOL ... still leaning toward the original. I'm not set, though. I kind of like having everything in the same place, functionally. It's far more often that I'm doing stuff alone than having a crowd in the kitchen helping. The kids always unload the DW, but that never happens while I'm cooking.

Traffic from the garage isn't that common, either ... so working on that end of the island (with 48" aisles everywhere) isn't a huge issue.

The feedback has been invaluable, though, because obviously everyone is different and has different needs and preferences ... so thanks to everyone who has weighed in. It's actually helped me confirm why we did it this way to begin with.

I'm still open to changing it if something appeals to me more, though. As I said, I know it isn't perfect. And I promise that in a year, when all is said and done, if I hate it, I'll come back and tell everyone. :-)

I definitely believe that the purpose of this forum is to point out possible downsides and offer alternatives for you to consider, then allow you decide which will work for you. We only want you happy with your kitchen in the end without having to ask, "Why didn't someone tell me?"

That said, I feel I have to throw in one more post, because it would be such a major problem for me to have the cleanup and cooking zones overlap and criss-cross. I do like your original plan best, except for that issue. You said the kids don't usually clear the dishwasher while you cook, but I wonder why you'd want to limit that option if you can avoid it, and also wonder if they don't set the table while you cook. It seems so easy to me to swap the dish storage and fridge, and have the dw on the table end, which would separate your zones. You are trying to keep the fridge by the table, but that makes 3 cooling units in easy reach from the table. After working in zones for 10 months now, I can tell you that it's SO wonderful...So I had to give it one more push. ;-) I hate regrets and 2nd guessing, so work to help others avoid them, too. Best wishes.

These are to show potential work paths. The first one has X's where people will stand or take up space. In the 2nd I moved the frig once more to give a more open corner by the stove.

Only concern with frig near pantry is getting to and from the table to the frig seems cumbersome. You're either walking around the island or you're walking in the middle of the cook/clean up areas. Think about getting water, butter, condiments on the table for meals.

I'm just curious if you've thought about how you're going to use all that island counter space. Alot of it in the middle doesn't seem useful. What about orientating 2 islands like in the below link. The first island could be the clean up area and the one behind it could be the one with bar stools.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mom to 4 Kids

I thought with 2 other frig type units near the table (drawers in bfast area and wine/beverage in the island), getting to the main frig from the table wouldn't be that much of an issue.

Just traffic circulation. Having to constantly walk around the island thing.

The breakfast area is ten feet wide. Ten feet is awfully small to have a table, chairs and a walkway and armoire. Ordinarily it wouldn't bother me quite as much, but you use that deck area outside that door. I think the "way" to the outdoors is going to be in front of the range. The way from the range to the rest of the house is always going to be towards the garage door, etc.

I don't like the dishes position because they are very far from both the range (dishing up) and either table area. I'm at a loss about the breakfast area so far from the table.
=========================
I think I'd use a squeegee on a pole to clean the island.

You're going to need to build something under the island to hold the countertop material seams. Make sure its really strong so you can walk on it (or possibly put a ladder on it) to change light bulbs.

I really love the 2nd plan bmore posted above. I'm so jealous of her skills. The traffic patterns work, the work zones make sense, and it takes great advantage of all the space you have to work with.

The eat-in area seems cramped in your layout. Also, the middle of your island seems like a no-man's land that will be very difficult to reach and therefore won't be used at all?

No worries about the nook: I drew it wrong when I copied the plan, which I wrote about up there ... but I can't change it on the drawing because I'm not at home. Fully understandable that one would skip the notation but retain what's in the picture. The nook is at least 12 feet wide, if not 13.

I was looking at pictures of Jaymielo's kitchen, which is very similar in layout to mine. It gave me the idea to switch up and put the trash pullout between the range and the refrigerator, and the bank of drawers next to the sink, in which I would put some dish storage. Any cons about having the trash there?

I've also asked about how much we can shrink the island from the 6ft depth. What do you all think: two 24" appliances and an overhang for seating requires how much? What I'm thinking is replacing the end DW with an 18" DW, and the 24" beverage center with a 15" wine fridge, which would shrink it a little bit.

Here's a really frightening photobucket edit job, trying to show a little more reality.

Forgot to answer this:

DH is adamantly opposed to two islands, but it's an interesting idea.

Is that enough room for your dishes? What about cups and glassware? I have my dishes in 2 banks of drawers each at 23" wide, and the glassware in an upper above...and I wish it was all a bit wider.

For everyday use, yes, that should be fine. I can actually go wider than 24 there, too. The DW is 24, sink cabinet will be approximately 33, so we have more than enough room to expand the drawers.

As I remember, you need a lot more dishes than we do. :-) Anyway, I have lots of other storage for extra dishes that aren't used everyday. The mugs go near the coffee maker in the breakfast bar.