One other possibility that occurred to me that I'd love feedback on: since we are having custom cabintry built, would it be terribly expensive to make everything (the overhead and counter cabinets) 3-4" deeper than standard? If so, could I then use a standard countertop microwave but mount it inside the 20" deep upper cabinets?

Most ranges require a minimum of 6" of counter between them and a tall cabinet or fridge, especially ones like Bluestar etc.

You should really post your blueprint for layout advice. I know you have a difficult space to work with, but I don't think you'll be happy with the kitchen if you go with what's in the current layout. Especially the fridge placement. You could really benefit from some creative ideas.

The Bluestar needs 6" clearance. See The link below.

I was able to see your blueprint, but couldn't think of an easy solution to your problem. That's why I suggested that you do a layout post. The collective brainstorming power of this forum is much more powerful than just my thinking though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bluestar Installation Clearances, see p 7

Thanks for that link. I guess the Bluestar may be out, then, since I think that 6" per side is unrealistic to do. It's odd since the 30" RNB pdf I printed out from the same site says 'Installation clearance: 3" Top Cabinet Per Side' but this manual is much clearer. Do you know whether American Range or Wolf are less strict on theirs due to lower BTU burners than the Blue Star?

As for posting the layout, I posted what I have except this one other rendering. Is there somewhere else I'm supposed to post them? If I can get away with 3" clearance to the top cabinets (note that the right side is a SS fridge, not a wooden cabinet) I'd do that with a 36" hood.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1992888}}

How about a microwave drawer? I don't know if they come with the convection feature though.

The Whirlpool Velos - a width of 20-1/2 inches, a height of 10-1/2 inches, a depth of 17-inches, and 2 cubic feet of capacity - built-in to a base cabinet or simply stick a small one in the pantry.

Have you considered reversing the range and ref and killing off the tray cabinet for the extra inches needed?

Perhaps argue about a 24" bluestar?

Is there anyway to cut out either entrance - particularly the one with the step?

Thanks for the feedback so far. For the clearances: I've been re-reading the install manual alku05 pointed me to and I *think* the plans may fit the spec except that the overhead caninets need to be made 3" less deep to meet the 13" limit. The only question is if a SS fridge side is considered a flammable side wall. Would it be? Could I just add an extra piece of SS guard to prtect its finish from grease?

As for swapping thr fridge and stove, that's actally what we have now and I find it awkward to have the range way over in the corner. Maybe I'll feel that way about the fridge, though, so feedback is welcome. Cut outs aren't really possible anywehere, unfortunately.

Lastly, I found a unit that might solve my microwave dilemma: what about putting a 24" miele speed oven in the island under the counter (replacing some of the drawers there.)?

I am looking at your layout right now.

* How flexible are you? Can doors & windows be moved or changed in any way?

* Does the sink have to be under the window and, if yes, does it have to be centered under the window?

Pantry: Your layout says "existing pantry"...is this the new pantry in the former side entrance you mentioned?

Left wall:

* Is that a window the sink is under?

* It looks like the dimensions on this wall are...
.....Total Length = 94-1/16" (is this wall-to-wall?)
.....Top wall to window = 26-7/8"
.....Window = 37"
.....Window to bottom wall = 30-1/4"

* What is the clearance b/w the end of the peninsula and the small wall to the left?

* Is that a "full height" wall? Is it necessary? removing it would gain you another 4 to 5 inches or more of cabinet & counter space...something you could really use!

* If you can take the wall down, could you extend the cabinetry down into the adjoining room, say lined up w/the end of the peninsula or lined up w/the beginning of the seating portion of the peninsula? That would gain you yet another 9 or 12 inches...

Top Wall:

* How wide is the doorway to the pantry? It looks like 30", but I'm not sure.

* It looks like the dimensions on this wall are...
.....Total Length = 90" Is this correct and is it the total usable wall length? I.e., from the right wall to the pantry door trim?
.....Left end to range = 17"
.....Range = 30"
.....3" filler
.....Refrigerator = 36-1/4" (counter depth)
.....It looks like there are 4" of filler to the right of the refrigerator...is this correct?

Right Wall:

* Nothing other than a step leading to ?????

* What exactly is this step? Can it be moved to the other side of the doorway? You're losing valuable counter space b/c of it & the doorway...

Bottom Wall:

* There appears to be nothing in 28-1/2" b/c of the step?

* There also appears to be a small wall to the right (near the "step"). Can that wall be removed as well? You would gain a potential 28" of cabinet and/or counter space...and..

* Can the door where the "step" is be moved "up"?

* It does look like you're using some of the space by putting in a shallow cabinet on the other side of the wall.

* The open part of the peninsula appears to be 57"

Hi, Buehl. Thanks for you help. I'm not at home right now (at the in laws for the holidays which is also why I actually have time to think about this) so I can recheck the measurements but can answer most of your other questions from memory.

- We're open to different layouts but there are a number of constraints and we're trying to to completely break the bank (though that besing said the last thing I want to do is skimp and end up spending money to continue disliking the kitchen...)

- The sink does not have to be below the window or centered there but that's where it is plumbed for now.

- Yes. The old side entrance on the house has been used by us (and the former owners) as a pantry. It, unfortunately, can't really be changed on the exterior at all due to zoning. It was built before the new zoning laws (in the 1950s) and therefore is grandfathered in but it is too close to the property line so if we tried to change it we couldn't get the permits to do it. Therefore, we were just going to try to use it better by insulating it (it gets down to 40 degrees n there now) and adding appropriate shelving) I heaven't measure the door but I think 30" sounds about right (may be slightly smaller than than. It is definitely not a lot bigger)

- Your dimensions seem right for the left wall.

- The clearance at the end of the peninsult is about 3ft exactly but this is also where our trash can is. We didn't find a good spot for a built in so we were going to leave it there so if we do I don't think we can pull the peninsult out much more.

- "South" of the peninsula the room flows into the only dining area. We've been trying to preserve this as much as possible.

- The wall there in the lower left of the diagram is full height. As far as I know it could be removed but there is a window (not drawn) only about 8" past it on the "west" wall so you can't go too far.
The one thing we do like about the wall is it deliniates the dining room but I'm open to moving it.

- I think your dimensions are right for the top wall, too.

- The step on the "east" wall leads up to a landing with a staircase and the only bathroom on the first floor (which is behind the "east" wall abutting the fridge. One reason we liked the idea on putting the fridge here was it would eb easiy to get water to it for an icemaker since that wall is a wet wall.

- I'd *love* to get rid of the step since I think it is odd and an eyesore but I don't think it is realistic without a lot of costly work on the other side of the east wall.

- You could take down the wall near the step. We hadn't since we thought we'd put a bulletin board or something there in an attempt to spare the fridge from the indignity of excessive baby photo magnets.

- In that 28.5" near the step we currently have a recycling bin. Again, if we could find a good enclsoed space for it I'd do that but since we couldn't think of one so far we left it there.

- Yes, it is true that there is a shallow cabinet on the back side of the south wall by the step. We thought we'd put table linens in here.

Thanks! People here are great help.

Regarding your original question about where to put the microwave. I have mine in my pantry. I made room for the MW in my pantry cause I didn't want it on the counter. Also, I didn't want it built in cause I feel then you are "married to it", so if it breaks/needs replacing, it's a PITA. Also, I find MW's unattractive. I didn't wants to look at one after spending so much time, effort and money on a lovely kitchen re-do. I had an electrician install an outlet in my pantry, which was an easy thing to do, and really love that my MW is not intruding on my pretty kitchen. Just my $.02.

You mentioned not having an over-the-range MW. Smart. My MW in the pantry replaced an OTR MW I had before. I replaced it with a proper hood. I will never have an OTR MW again. Ugh. The OTR's don't exhaust well at all, they're too high up to remove sloshing hot dishes from, they're really expensive (vs. my pantry MW which cost $110), and as I noted above, their looks don't fit in with my lovely new kitchen.

Also, just a brief comment on your brief comment about needing a stepladder (or stepstool) for your cabinetry to the ceiling. I do not know how tall you or your wife are, but for me, I need a stepstool for anything above the second shelf, regardless. So the need for a stepstool is not necessarily predicated on whether the cabinets go to the ceiling or not. The advantages of storage space if you go to the ceiling outweigh the need for a stepstool. Again, just my $.02.

There was a thread recently on the Appliances Forum regarding countertop convection MW's. You might be interested in reading it, cause it discusses prices, specs and brand names, so I've linked it below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Appliances Forum Thread about Convection MW's

So Tom, how do you feel about the MW in the pantry?

Tom,

I haven't seen you post before, so I assume you are new here. Welcome! Men are significantly outnumbered by women here, but (perhaps because of that) it is a friendly place to both.

If you aren't in a tremendous hurry to get done I suggest you read as much of the old postings here as you have the patience for, and monitor it for awhile. You will learn a *lot* here that will help you make better choices about your kitchen. You will learn much more than you are likely to learn from your cabinet guy or KD (kitchen designer).

I'm personally not much good at advising about kitchen layouts. But there are several people here who are, and you have already started to get that advice. Based on what you have said so far I would suggest that you post at least a rough floorplan for the entire floor containing your kitchen in order to give those people more to work with in making suggestions.

If you haven't found the other related forums here - especially appliances - take a look. You can get a lot of info about appliances there.

If I were you I would temporarily postpone the question about where to put the MW pending reconsideration of the entire layout. As people have mentioned, there are many different options and form factors for MWs. You may narrow those by the features you want, such as a combo with convection. There seem to be a lot of different philosophies about how important a MW is and how it is used.

Re your question about deeper cabinets that accommodate a MW better, yes you can, and AFAIK it shouldn't be a big price difference if you are getting custom cabinets. Some people also make the lower cabinets deeper (or pull them out) to give a deeper counter. That can give you the same setback between lowers and uppers, though that apparently isn't such a big deal.

Best wishes on your project!

Great advice Paul! Layout does need to be considered carefully here since not only is it a small space, but there are 3 doorways and 1 (or 2 if you count the DR) window(s) to work around.

Some other questions for Tom:

NKBA guidelines recommend a 15" overhang for counter seating, you have 12". I would recommend adding 3" to your overhang. Others have said they're OK with the 12" but it's been mentioned that you have to lean forward or sit sideways to get to the counter.

What are the dimensions of the DR? Can you afford to take another 6" or 9" off of it? [6" if only a 12" overhang, 9" if 15" overhang]

If you cannot take another 6 or 9 inches from the DR, would you mind reducing the peninsula seating to 2? (Right now, the 3rd person has a cabinet within 12" of his or her face.)

Step:

Since the step cannot be moved, can it be shrunk? Can you reduce it so it only goes 3" to either side of the door (or less?) on both sides? Right now, it looks like it's 6" to either side.

How high is the step?

How high is the BA floor off the kitchen floor? It must be pretty high since you need an interim step.

Here are two possible layouts. Your space is tough! However, I think I may have come up with 2 possible layouts, but I do like the one labeled "Tom_G_DC #2" the best.

These layouts assume:
* You take down the left wall b/w the kitchen & DR and go to w/in 3" of the DR window.
* The step can be made narrower...3" on either side of the doorway to the bathroom
* Cabinets on right wall go to w/in 3" of the bathroom doorway & flush w/the step
* 15" overhang steals another 3" from the DR
* In Layout #2, the tall cabinet containing the Convection MW will run up to the step so the toe kick will have to be "raised" to the height of the step
* Ditto for the 21" cabinet in Layout #1 (the step was not drawn in, sorry)

Other notes:
* In both layouts, the MW is in a tall cabinet. This allows you to put it at a good height for you and also provides additional storage space above and below the MW...something your kitchen needs! The MW doesn't have to be built-in, rather an alcove can be created to put the MW in.
* The refrigerator has a 3/4" finished end panel on each side.
* Ditto for the tall cabinet in Layout #1
* In Layout #2, the tall cabinet only needs a finished panel on the top half of the exposed side. The other side is against the wall and the bottom of the exposed side is against cabinets and countertop.
* Peninsula: The countertop will run up to the tall cabinet in Layout #2, incorporating the 3" filler below the counter b/w the tall cabinet and the base cabinet in the peninsula.
* Peninsula seating:
...-- In Layout #1, there is seating for 3 as in your original floor plan. The difference is that with this layout the 3rd person is not looking at a cabinet 12" in front of his face
...-- In Layout #2, there's really only space for 2. The "extra" space to the right is too shallow for another seat. You could either run the countertop around there for extra space in the DR (for dishes, narrow ones!) w/a 9" cabinet below or you could put in a 9" deep tall cabinet and not extend the countertop past the tall MW cabinet.

Sink: You don't have a lot of work space around the sink. However, there is enough workspace, I think, to provide space for stacking dirty dishes and cleanup. For prep, there is additional work space around the range and directly across from the sink. Every wall is broken up by something...either doorway or window...and you don't have a long enough run on any wall to incorporate the refrigerator + range or refrigerator + sink and still have decent work space. I felt these layouts, especially #2, are a good compromise and provide at least some work space around every appliance.

You could move the sink & DW to the peninsula, but I'm not a big fan of that since it not only takes away your only decent expanse of space for prep, baking, etc., but also for homework & other projects. The sink would also be "in the face" of anyone sitting across from the sink. I'd like to see another 9 to 12 inches depth if you do put the sink in the peninsula. However, it's up to you.

Trash & Recycle: You mention that you couldn't find space for the trash can or the recycle bin. Rev-A-Shelf makes a double 27-qt trash pullout that fits a 15" face-frame cabinet. In Layout #2, you could put both in either:
* the 15" cabinet on the right wall
...OR
* If you only need 2" of clearance b/w the refrigerator & window, then the 14" cabinet b/w the refrigerator and sink could be 15" and you could put the trash pullout there.

RV-4WCTM-15DM-2 - Top Mount Double Bin Pull-Out Waste Container

About that 14" cabinet...if you will have custom cabinets, you should be able to get a 14" cabinet. However, if you are getting stock cabinets (and probably semi-custom), you will probably have to get a 12" cabinet + 2" filler since stock cabinets usually come in set sizes and semi-custom in increments of 3". If you can make it a 15" cabinet, then you'll be OK with almost any cabinet line, I think.

Please remember that this is your kitchen and that these are only suggestions. The design of your kitchen is ultimately up to you. So, you can take anything you like and throw out the rest! Let me know if you have any questions.

Good luck & welcome to the obsession--TKObsessed!

Layout #1 (NOT my favorite)

Layout #2...my personal favorite

Thanks! These look great. As soon as I get home I'm going to remeasure everything and see how far in the DR this ends up taking things. I can't believe how helpful people are on this forum.

Buehl, great job with those layouts. I like the second one too. Tom will have to choose a SxS or french door fridge b/c of the tight clearance though. However, with a space like his, that tight clearance between the penninsula and the fridge is a small sacrifice to gain the better layout.