I have not followed this story. (Better minds were already involved.) But given the mega-size of the island and what I assume is a large table in the open area, thought I'd tell you what I wish I had thought about before designing our peninsula: table leaf storage. If you have table leaves and an odd vertical, deep area, consider adding a custom storage area to your island. A simple door on the outside and none's the wiser! Saves space in closets. If you need to protect the wood of the leaves, use a custom fabric bag.

Also check with local code regarding any window over a rangetop.

I really like the door to the dining room! It will be so much easier to access, now. I don't think I'd move the little wall by the dishwasher...it is nice to have a little division, between the two spaces.

The island is great and I think moving the sink is a wonderful idea. Is the main oven under the cooktop? That side of the island will be perfect for baking.

Looks like a winner :)

florantha -- that's a brilliant idea about storing the leaves. We do indeed have a couple big, bulky leaves that I could profitably stick down in the murky depths. Thank you!

lavender, thanks for saying that about not moving the wall. I love that little extra support not to move it; and certainly the two spaces are awfully connected. There was some conversation a while back regarding whether you liked your dining table in the kitchen space and some mentioned they preferred not to see their dirty dishes and clutter. I'm pretty not-fussy that way (have to be as I'm married to an incredibly slobby man), still just that little extra force of separation and organization and enforced calm seems wise. I commented in that thread that I had thought a dedicated eating area was dumb until I tried it; it does force a certain proper structure that's grounding. So, yes. I'll do as you suggest and squeeze in without the longer counter there. It's a small compromise and heck, it pays for the Miele! ;)

I definitely like the door to the dining room. You can put a swinging door there, or a pocket door. That corner was a little crowded. I'm not sure about the rest of that corner though. Yes to the way you have your lowered counter. No to extending the sink run into the dining room. No to having the dining room doorway open to the DW handles. You need enough wall there to cover them. No to looking at the sink.

I get the point of the two sided cabinets, but they're more a fun gimmick than necessary for a nice life.

The passthrough where I think I see it is not going to be pretty. Since it's there for light and air, rather than service, it doesn't have to be that close to the sink. There should be a post there to define the doorway, and have the passthrough centered above the counter and sideboard, with at least room for a molding and a tiny strip of wall on the sideboard side to give it a nice finished look. Plus shutters (they can be translucent). Yes to symmetry. I'm not a symmetry hound, but the offset there isn't a happy one.

The speed oven and prep sink locations look fine. The work flow for cooking and baking look very good, really. The 6" of wall between the baking counter and minimum height for the passthrough sill should help keep the flour on the kitchen side. :) And the shutters. Notice how I'm declaring them fait accompli.

Hi plllog - I should have clarified that the doorway isn't going to have a door! At least it didn't in its former incarnation and I'm happy to nix it (rather, never install it) this time too. This will mitigate crowding there a teensy bit. And the DW handles won't be in collusion with the door either (since there won't be one). OK on the wall-stays confirmation!

I see your point about the pass-through asymmetry being unhappy. I was unhappy about it at first too, but it grew on me: trying to be too positive perhaps. Still, I want to try to draw it up as-is in elevation and see if it looks funky still. I wish I had a snazzy computer program to do this. I'll experiment with a post in the doorway but I'll lose that nice big upper cabinet which might make me unhappy, too.

I'm OK with the loss of the 2-sided cabinets. I was never convinced they would work (for us).

I'll do some more drawing and report back....

Personally, I would swap the prep sink and the microwave. You're moving prepped foods quite a ways to the stove and still don't have it there handy for filling and emptying hot pots of water. But the 45" Stages sink!...I'm jealous!

I've had a very long day, so forgive me if I'm not getting it...Is the 'pass through' connected to the doorway for a wide opening that is just down to the floor at the doorway? (I hope that makes sense) Seems like the 3 different counter heights converging there could be messy. I hope you can see a 3D of it and check it out.

I suggest switching the MW and prep sink locations. MW in the sink location makes it convenient to fridge for reheating leftovers, but, more importantly, the prep sink in the MW spot puts it in a much better spot for meal prep.

Congratulations for getting your details almost completely nailed down!

Hi rhome -- hopefully you're long since slumbering and can't answer at the moment.

I'm a little confused about your reasoning for swapping the prep sink and MW. You said [how do you copy text into small italics??]: "You're moving prepped foods quite a ways to the stove and still don't have it there handy for filling and emptying hot pots of water" -- by stove you mean the range's stove? [that's a range, not a cooktop, btw] -- I don't get how swapping the sink and MW would change how far I walk to the range. Maybe I should draw in zone circles because that must be what I'm misunderstanding -- I was thinking of the prep zone as extending across the island over the MW and across the section across from the range. .... oh I think I get what you're saying: 'because the aisle is so wide, regardless of where the sink and prep zone is, you'll still have to move prepped foods a long way to get them to the range - sink location won't help with this; however locating the sink further from the range makes it harder to use the sink for dumping hot water ...'

I think I'll go stand in the space and pace it out and try to see whether that is true in reality. On paper it seems to me that what you'd wind up doing is, say prepping food for the stove to the right of a prep sink placed on the corner and therefore you'd be walking further with it to the stove than otherwise -- you'd be crossing paths back across the sink part to get to the stove. Alternatively with the sink moved toward the fridge you'd prep closer to the corner and windup with the prepped food a couple paces closer to the range; you'd not retrace steps getting them to the range. The difference isn't much so I don't think it would matter too much either way. But I was thinking that removing the stove yet further from the range separates that baking zone further; the MW doubles as an electric oven so it really belongs in the cooking section as well as the snack/reheating section.

Am I making sense? I think I get your point, am not sure whether mine is just theoretical and will try to commune with the space and figure it out in reality. so to speak.

I think you're understanding the weird passthrough section correctly. Only thing is I don't think you'll notice the three different heights from anywhere except under the doorjamb itself! That is, the wall will block out sight of the sideboard from the kitchen, and similarly from the DR, the wall will block out sight of the counter. From the K you'll see a counter with a ledge 6" above it overhanging about 5" 9hopefully I'll figure out something to stuff under there usefully). From the DR you'll see the passthrough ledge overhanging the sideboard just an inch or so and 1.5" or so up from its height. I'll do an elevation and repost.

Thanks for thinking so hard about my stuff! Hope you get some sleep.

Hi breezy, rhome: I am wondering whether swapping prep sink and MW would chop up the work area available. Having the sink away from the corner leaves a -- here, I'll post a couple sketches in a moment.

First, this question:

Should I tighten up the range-aisle distance? (trade off would be a larger island which might not be a good idea at this point)

OK, here are the sketches:

It's probably bad form to respond to one's own post and so quickly. But sketching both ways make me really think the MW closer to the fridge is better for a few reasons: 1) I think chopping up the space is sad 2) I can't even figure out which way I'd want the sink drainboard to face which suggests I'm confused about how the zone is working, which direction it's going in, etc. 3) I think any hot water that's to be dumped would probably be shunted along the sink wall to the main sink not across the aisle to the little one. That seems safer because there's a larger splash zone to aim for and no twisting to be done and no walkway to be fouling. So I'm not sure angling the sink to be accessible to the stove is necessary. It's not that far to the main sink - 6' - is that far? To the island corner is probably 5' -- as you say a bit of a distance either way.

I have a story about the Stages ... I happened on to this plumbing supply store here run by a very dynamic, opinionated, strong woman. She is incredibly knowledgable and I like her tremendously, though I see she's not for everyone (one customer's husband started hollaring "why is everyone in here jumping around like fleas!" It was so funny...). She looks at me and says: "I know what you want, I have the perfect sink for you, it's exactly what you need...". Now this sort of patter makes me very skeptical, to say the least, but I do listen. And really appreciate the effort of anyone trying to alleviate even one decision. I can't let her do that of course, but I sure do listen. And I think in the end I've followed most of her suggestions. And I've been very happy with all of them to date.

So she sizes me up and within minutes of meeting me decides 'this is the sink for me' -- this was weeks and weeks ago now. I didn't love it at the time and wasn't even close to beginning to think about sinks; I was bemused. The sink felt fussy to me, with all those little bowls - it didn't feel right to me (it was the smaller one fwiw; not that I think that was what wasn't feeling right, although maybe it was - I think I feel dictated to by all those bowls -- what if I want to use a different one, one of my own long-used ones??). Anyway, I've come full circle on so many things now: design, thinking, etc. I've had a chance to look at many different sinks and redesign the kitchen, etc. I now feel this sink really might fit perfectly in this space and be just the kind of setup I'm looking for. I do have large pots and pans; they're heavy and I wash them by hand and it drives me crazy when I can't fit my things in the sink, which is usually and most of them. I've actually never conceived of not just making do before now, but it slowly dawned on me that this sink might permit me not to have to "make do", and that really the whole point of doing over a house would be to try to make it so you didn't have to pretzel yourself, always, making do. It's really all in service to this, and if at the last second you make decisions that aren't acknowledging your need, much of the effort's just been silly.

It had not really occurred to me that this sink was anything special; it just seemed big. But it now seems like it could be very much what I could use. I've been living with just a deep utility sink for a while now (recommended by this lady) and I realize that I don't need to have two side-by-side sinks, collecting grubby water and dishes that should have been washed long ago. I like open living spaces and flexibility; why not let the sink reflect this? Perhaps its flexibility will be a real boon.

That's my latest thinking. I really had no idea this sink was the holy grail of so many of the kitcheners here. It's taken me a long while to come around to the idea; I'm very leery of pretentiousness in kitchens! This isn't a restaurant and I don't cook for the 10 that you do. Still, I'm getting excited about it and I hope I can make good use of the acreage; I think I will.

Which leads me round to praise of the small-store deeply knowledgeable salesman. I was turned off a little by how tiny is her showroom - it feels that to do a proper service she should have more examples to show me. Yet what's really happened is, she's skillfully weeded out hundreds of less-good examples. She really has wisely selected the chestnuts. That's what you would want, and it's hard to trust it's happened until you've wasted fruitless hours coming around to the understanding that your tastes are similar-enough. But that's what I believe is the case here. She told me weeks ago This was The One; I thought "sure...." and after looking at several hundred others, I am starting to believe she spoke not just blather but meaning. wow.

My comments had nothing to do with aisle width, but with sink location. Yes, I guess you're moving food from fridge and ultimately to the range/stove the same distance...but think of where you'll stand and set the food while prepping at the sink across from the fridge. You'll have to move yourself and the prepped food to have it conveniently across from the fridge. Basically, 2 work stations/work positions for one task.

I want to move the food once to the sink, prep it next to the sink, and turn to drop it in a pan. Not much moving after retrieving things from the fridge initially.

The sink on the corner doesn't split up your workspace, it gives you TWO workspaces. One across from the fridge for salads, microwave, etc. (a 2nd person)...and one across from the stove. You have such wide areas in both spots, you don't need to join them into one.

And, I know I asked this before, but where will you want to fill and drain pots? It is best to have that opportunity close to the stove, so you're not traipsing around with boiling hot water.

Hi again rhome -- I think I'd fill pots in the big sink anyway; more space, plus it's easier to slide than to pivot across an aisle I think.

I see your point about not breaking up the space because it's so big already. I think I need to go stand in the space again.

Actually, I'm of the stack-it-all-next-to-the-fridge-first tribe. I'd probably remove it from the fridge to the counter to the right. From there I'd bring it all across to the prep space -- that's probably maybe closer to the corner than not. I think it might be easier to drop it into a pan from an unencumbered cross-range run.

I may just be intellectualizing this too much; dunno. But it feels like you'd have to walk out and around the prep sink rather than just slide over to the stove with the fridge-side prep sink. Maybe this is just nonsense; I really can't tell!

Re the sinks, did you all notice the WALL on the bottom of page side of the island? Also, I don't know why the prep sink is needed by the stove when the clean-up sink is right there. Am I missing something?

I liked the prep sink handy to the fridge and baking area, away from the wall to leave room for the coffee and all, but leaving that whole long run of counter behind the stove for staging. I thought that worked well. Additionally, the speed oven is handy to the whole cooking area, which is convenient, right? So if it's chickening, the bird can be seasoned and potted by the range, then plonked right into the speed oven. For zapping, it's handy to the fridge and coffee area. For extra oven juggling, it's in between the two.

But on the fridge drawer handles? I was thinking more about them sticking out beyond the doorway so when you look through you just see them. I'd feel better if the door casing went beyond the counters and hardware.

As to door, do consider a pocket door. Even if you only close it three times a year. Who gets to sit in the chairs with the view right in to the sink where you've just cleared dinner, and gets to have dessert and coffee while seeing who left how many scraps?

Re losing the nice, big upper cabinet, I sympathize. I'm all about the function, but that's the wrong compromise. The passthrough growing out of the doorway looks odd. Do try your elevations. Tape it off on the real wall. Do whatever you can to see how you like it and prove me wrong! I think a better solution, especially since in the finalization process little bits have been nibbled off of your storage here and there, would be to do a passthrough "backsplash". That is, hang uppers along the whole wall, and have the pass through be 18" high, to normal counter height, with your lowered counter and a bit of matching backsplash below the sill for flour containment. It could be a whole four feet wide, or nearly, and have a shutter that pulls down or up within the wall. That would be very chic, and add a little mystery, while letting in light and air and connectedness. Plus, it would be a great way to pass plates of soup or made up plates without carrying trays though a narrow door. Just stage them on the baking counter and pass them up to the sideboard for serving.

Or figure you have a heck of a pantry and give up the upper and have a nice, big, properly positioned passthrough.

Hmmm -- hi plllog. I keep trying to make my way down to ground zero for testing but get intriguing posts to respond to instead ;)

re the sinks: I'm gonna go stand in the space and feel things out.

You said: "But on the fridge drawer handles? I was thinking more about them sticking out beyond the doorway so when you look through you just see them."
-Do you mean across from the (unlabelled) broom closet? That's the small one next to the pantry, across the "hall". I was misunderstanding then. I'm not sure from where they'll be seen -- I guess from the LR, but I can't see it's much of a problem. Don't i need that back-set space in order for the doors of the fridge to open? I'm a little confused about the cabinetry needs of fridges, but I just figured this would work OK. I'll measure things there carefully and extend the wall as far as I can for the fridge to still work. I'll try to remember to ask the cabinet guy (whosoevers/heshallbe).

I don't think there's space for a pocket door -- and definitely not as there's a big structural post there. Can't remember what it's called, a "keen"? And then there's that stupid passthrough on the other side! Personally, I think the passthrough is silly overkill. But I'll try to mitigate the silliness by making it more proper, as you suggest. I'll do a mockup both ways and let dh see. This is his fantasy. I do like the idea of a shutter, but I know it would spend 0% of its life down. My life is just too frantic to remember to do any of that stuff. I dunno; I can look into it -- but it aso sounds expensive... (lame excuse considering the price of the appliances I'm considering).

I cross posted with the last few messages.

I think this whole prep sink location is about the the location of the fridge, not the sink. Moving the fridge to its current location opened up the baking counter and passthrough. This is worthy. I get Rhome's point about having a prep area directly within reach of the stove, but there's plenty of counter by the stove, and only two strides to the big sink, so I really don't see a problem for when you have a big pot to fill or an extra onion to chop. I don't see any way of using this kitchen without a couple of extra steps, without sacrificing some other important feature.

I like the stove side of the island uninterrupted. Not sure why. Maybe because the seating area wraps around there. I also like the prep sink on the fridge side. In my own kitchen, I pull things out of the main fridge and put them on the corner of the island, walk around to the prep side of the island to work on them, then turn to the stove. On this island, it's the same but opposite. That is, put everything on island, prep, put them on the corner, then walk around and turn to the stove. I don't see why that doesn't work.

Aliris, this is common. Rhome and I will have opposite opinions of how a layout works for the exact same reason. :) It will probably help you to mock it up life size and see how it works best for you.

"this is common. Rhome and I will have opposite opinions of how a layout works for the exact same reason. :) It will probably help you to mock it up life size and see how it works best for you."

Cute! You two could have a career in politics.

Sorry! I meant dishwasher drawer handles sticking into the doorway. I have fridge drawers. It was a slip of the tongue. :) I think the fridge will be fine, though if my goof gives you food for thought, so much the better. :)

I was thinking pocket door in the existing partial wall on the other side, but it's a 32" door and a 24" wall, so never mind. There are solutions for if you really do want a door, but I'm not sure it's worth it if you're going to leave it open. You can get a folding screen for $100 if you're happy to have it open there, but want to shield the view once in awhile.

The budget is not a lame excuse!! Considering the extra you're spending on the appliances, it behooves you to be conservative elsewhere.

So... Italics. Use HTML tags. HTML tags mostly have an opening tag and a closing tag. The tags are contained within angle brackets. That is, greater than and less than signs. The closing tag starts with a forward slash. Your text to be italicized goes between the two tags.

left angle bracket (less than)
em (that's the letters "em" for emphasis)
right angle bracket (greater than)
YOUR TEXT
left angle bracket
forward slash
em
right angle bracket

You can use an "i" for italic instead of the "em" for emphasis, but that's what they call "deprecated", meaning that that's the old way, and they changed it, but just about any browser will read it because there's lots of old stuff out there done the old way, including most of GW.

there's lots of old stuff out there done the old way, including most of GW.

Oh, *Thank you* plllog! Now that lll is coming in handy... I bet I now have the tools to google how to make *be in bold* too! Another day... But you sure are right about GW being old. Man, this is an unwieldy piece of software.

OK, yup - too short a wall for a pocket door; wouldn't be used anyway. Thing is, we're kinda a no-door family. We have them because you're supposed to. I'm pretty anti-locks too. Dunno, maybe it's latent paranoia. When we moved into this house 16 years ago we removed the door from its hinges (located in precisely this spot formerly) - it was one of the first things we did and I never once wished it was there. Moreover I don't remember ever once gazing into the kitchen and thinking 'oh, ick' from the DR. Mind you, things will be opener still with a passthrough now. But we can always add a swing-type door later -- heck, we could add back the one we took off 16 years ago, I'm pretty sure it's around here someplace.

Ironically we started this whole renovation largely because there were insufficient doors; our girls had no room of their own. Now that we have them they spend all of their time in one another's rooms bothering each other. honestly....

The DW handles though .. now I get you and I see that's another matter. Dh was thinking of putting the DW on the other side of the sink which I didn't think was as functional given that crockery is likely to be closer to the DR plus will mostly wind up there eventually (though not exclusively). I can revisit that. I can also look into the DW drawer machines themselves -- I vaguely recall noticing that one or another had more recessed handles than another. Can't quite recall.

However, please look at the left side of the drawing. There's a little arrow indicating 2'5" - that's actually the length of that wall. That means there's a 5" setback from the edge of the wall to the countertop. Any handles on the DW would still fall behind the wall's edge. And I think one walks through the doorway with a sense of where the edge of the door is, and you would be automatically protected from whacking the handles thereby.

I just played with making the countertop jog back out on the other side of the sink mirroring the range side and potentially making an overhang to further shield the handles. But that doesn't work; the counters and passageways aren't symmetrcial and it looks dumb. Plus I don't think it's needed; would cause more trouble than help.

Back to elevations.

Oh! There! I see the 2'5" now. It kind of overlaps the arrow, and I missed it. In that case the whole DW handles issue is moot. It won't be a problem. I just get really literal with layouts, and don't assume anything I can't see--and I didn't see the measure. :)

I think the DW works better where you have it. It's fine on the other side, but, while it's counter-intuitive, sometimes appliances work well where you have facing cabinets in a doorway like that. It puts them out of the way, and they can work better there than cabinetry. You have the other way around, so don't have to worry about blocking the passage, and it's not that hard to close the drawers. That frees up the point of use in the center of the kitchen for cooking related items. My DW is between my sink and stove, but it's the base of a U, and better, for me, in the middle there than by the corner where it would be in my way. It's just fine. But I like the way it lays out as you have it, especially if it puts the dishes that much closer to where they get put away.

Given your door explanation, which I do get, I think I'm ready to sign off contingent on a lovely passthrough design.

Yep. It's good.

BTW, I asked people to look for a pantry like yours that I'd seen in a picture. Did you see it? Maybe some inspiration for you there?

Congrats on your successful journey into HTML. Here's a good reference site. Meantime, you can use "strong" in your codes, instead of "em", or the deprecated "b" for bold.

I think the length of that wall was ambiguous -- the plans themselves were wrong and I didn't bother to correct it because I had been thinking the size of that opening would change.

Also about the DW eclipsing the doorway - first, if drawers rather than full-length style, there's room to squeeze past even if the drawers are opened. Second, with that passthrough, if it survives, there will be plenty of room for clearing without having to actually pass into the kitchen (Actually I had originally made that argument when I thought the counter would extend into the DR over the DW, but I think it's still true-enough). So if the doorway is temporarily eclipsed that should be OK. Plus it's not as if it's all that far around to go through the hall by the pantry.

But wait - please don't sign off without considering whether the range-passage is too large. I think I could, and I'm thinking maybe I should, tighten up that passageway. I think the island won't get too big; I'd extend the free curve a tad to accommodate it. What width aisle do you think would be ideal? I asked that a while back and I can't seem to find everyone's answers....

Plllog -- I've made a first-pass stab at an elevation. I see this is going to be a long slog too! And I sure do get it right about now as to why I would want to have an inventory of stuff for the drawers. I am totally guessing as to necessary heights. Yccch.

But the major objective is to determine whether the pass-through is too squirrely to stay. I think it is, but I think if dh wants this wackiness -- well, I'm not convinced that a pass-through done 'properly' as you said, would be any better. It would be narrow and there would be no storage space and it would still look weird.

What do you think??

Love the piano island.
Always good to get your DH involved.
~boxer

Make the pass-through piano-shaped? Echo the curves theme in other sreas also?

Oh Florantha, I have no idea how that could be done! But it's a nifty idea ... I wonder if I could somehow shape the threshold on the pass-through like a piano? I'm guessing that's just asking for trouble though. to shape the pass-through, the right angle at the threshold would have to be curved -- I can see that translating to a big pia in a big hurry. And also the join at the floor would have to be curved, and that would be an even bigger pia -- an outright no-no I'd think.

Has anyone any idea how this might be done safely? Thanks for your comments and thoughts...

Forget the piano shape--it just rang a bell when I saw drawing. I'd just curve the top part - a sculpted line. And echo it over the range or the sink also. Same arc. And if you put feet on any cabs, make them arc instead of angle on inside of foot.

I'm way behind here, but Plllog, one thing I was doing was trying to meet her desire to not prep and do cooking tasks over the dishes in the main sink. I can't see prepping raw chicken, for instance, way over by the fridge, when I want it by the stove.... That's where I'm comin' from.

Does the wall at this end of the island make a difference where the prep sink should be and how the cooking area sets up? I got lost at that question...But I'm getting a cold, so my head is full of stuff other than brain.

Rhome, I'm not getting it about the chicken. It starts in the fridge. It ends in the range (or speed oven). Why not prep it at the prep sink? Same as veg, wash/pluck/trim the chicken. Put it in the pot on the corner of the island. Walk around, pick up pot, transfer to range. I think we must have very different ideas of how this will work.

Aliris, what do you think about the chicken?

I wouldn't tighten the range aisle any!! Optimal, is between 42-51". Mine is 48" and perfect for me. Two people can work on either side and not do the dance. I wouldn't, personally, want to go much less than 45", but the sides of my island are 42" and I think a whole aisle that size wouldn't be bothersome, especially with one side open (i.e., island or peninsula). Air volume is also a consideration in a corridor or galley kitchen, but you have a nice, open space. It's the distance from the fridge that's a bit too big! But that is determined to a great extent by the locations of the walls, and, aesthetically, having the bookends of the bow/sink and the pantry, that's a gracious space, and something I also could choose to live with for looks.

I love Florantha's idea, but you'd lose too much of your baking counter, I think.

You know you'll have to put a big beam in there, right? Making a shaped opening isn't that big a deal. Just a little hands on craftsmanship. It might look quite good. But think about the other side of the wall on this elevation. If you and your husband like the looks of this, go for it. It looks pretty much like I thought it would in the elevation. I really don't like it, but it's not me you have to please.

I still think the 18-20" tall "backsplash" shaped passthrough centered over the baking counter and sideboard if it's possible to make it work on both sides, would look and function best. Give up a little function (cupboard), and a separate window over the counter/sideboard would look just fine.

Hiya both, all --

Beam. It's in there already. Making a door will be trivial, just a matter of slicing downward. All the structure is already in place; the same as now.

Florantha's piano-shape -- I tried a scaled back version, florantha and I think you're (both) right; something might work! I'll post it anon but it's probably not worth a new posting of just alone as the change. This little letimotiv might be a little more sensible were I to actually *have* a grand piano, but oh well....

chicken. I think I would probably prep the chicken at the range end of the mega-Stages sink. Hope that's not disappointing to one or the other of you! I would rather keep the prep sink clear of salmonella and available for veggie-processing, of which I do a lot, but by the time it gets to the cleanup sink, cleanliness is harder to maintain (ironically, I suppose). I don't think I'll be backtracking too far on sanitariness by prepping a bird in the main sink. Pot would be to the right of the sink and as you say, plllog: plllop. scoot. incinerate.

How did you know I like to make chicken soup? This thought is making me sad... it has been a very, very long time since I've made "monster ball soup". sniff. (Maybe that mention of the giant stock pot).

BTW, in my experience those birds are so slippery, I would prefer to have the extra space the big sink will afford rather than trying to stuff it into the prep sink (and by the way, do you think at 12" x 13" my proposed sink would be big enough?). This is a task I find to take space and I'd be more comfortable in the big sink, than cutting on the surface next to the stove or possible across from it. These positions would have me already in swivel-to-stove position prior to prepping bird so afterwards, when hands are dirty, and convenience would be at a premium, I'd be all set for that. Wiht the sink closer to the wall, I'd prep further from the final resting point and have to do one more move to get there after the point of dirtiness. If you follow ... so I'm thinking the sink closer to the wall feels better.

This is perhaps just random guessing and one could spin a tale that worked the other way too; dunno. I actually think at this point I could swap the relative location of the two without really altering my next step, which is to design storage space. I think I could punt on a final decision regarding this with impunity just now. How's that for keeping the peace???

Thanks all!

Florantha, I contemplated, briefly, the idea of cutting the pass-through to a piano-shape, but I think functionally that would be unwise, leaving an asymmetrical slice of wood that would invite droppage from it. But it seemed a neat idea.

I wonder if anyone makes a piano-shaped sink? ;) Shouldn't I be a better musician for so much of that kind of a leit-motiv? It's fun though...

rhome, I hope you've got some nice soothing tea and honey all set up in your beverage zone there... feel better soon!

Beam. Do you mean the whole structure including the passthrough opening is there now? I thought it was just the door. You mean, you're narrowing the opening now?

Piano. I dunno. I think it's kind of great that it isn't referential to your actual piano. It's not like it's being forced. You started with these two difficult L's in the island and doorway, and the piano shape flowed from that. It's a bonus that you have a music room and piano, upright though it may be. I suppose you could put a piano bar in the open area instead of a kitchen table, but that would be overkill don't you think?? :)

LOL!!! Re the chicken, it doesn't matter to us!! It matters if this layout works for the way you want to cook! The reef in the stages sink is perfect for setting a chicken on while you're cleaning it. It's a little lower than counter, so you're not reaching up, and the stainless is easy to disinfect. I actually do it the same way. I prep veggies on my island, and meats at the clean up sink. It's lower there, and I don't have to worry about cross contamination. Rhome has very good points and a terrific understanding of how a kitchen works--I was just trying to understand her points because I wasn't getting it, and it might be really important.

The prep sink is 12"x13"? That's more like a bar sink. I think 16" minimum is more useful if you have the space. Put your two hands side by side on a ruler and see if you really want a sink that size.

First thing in my new kitchen, before I was even all unpacked, was chicken stock. It won't be that long for you!!

Not following the sink closer to wall argument. You mean closer than you've pictured it? Or the first position rather than island corner?

LOL again on keeping the peace. We're just trying to guide you through the process. Having to explain how you do things makes you really figure out how you do things.

Re swapping the big sink for the small, I think the balance is better as it is now, but you could do that. If you really want the stages for prepping, for using all the little accessories and all, maybe you would prefer it in the island. How's the view? Is there something wonderful to look at out the bow window? Will your family be hanging out in the open area and at the island? More time is spent prepping than anything else in the kitchen. Where do you want to be more often? Or do you want to divide the tasks between the two sinks as above? And yes, you can table the final decision...but you need to decide soon so you can plan the rest of your cabinetry and where stuff goes.

I don't think there's a commercial piano shaped sink, though you could have one fabricated pretty easily if you wanted stainless. But a piano shaped sink in a piano shaped island? A bit Seussian, don't you think?

It depends on how you want to use that prep sink. Make sure you can fit your hands in to wash and trim without banging your knuckles. Make sure anything you want to fit into it, like a colander or anything you want to fill or rinse, will fit. Mine is about 14 1/2" x 16" inside. I wouldn't want it smaller, but we're not using them the same since you have the Stages sink.

Beam. Do you mean the whole structure including the passthrough opening is there now? I thought it was just the door. You mean, you're narrowing the opening now?

[oh, you have no idea what a thrill it is that I remembered how to do this...]

Yes... I guess. That long wall is currently holding a big, broad opening at too-high passthrough height. There is a "keen" or maybe that's meant to be "beam" (English is not our builder's native language] that's vertical and a beam high across the top of the passthough that ends in it, unfortunately not the entire length of the long wall. (does that make any sense at all?) On the elevation you can just make out a dotted line oblong that traces the current opening. The door would be cut down from it to the floor. And a chunk would be walled over on the left side.

sink-closer-to-wall argument was about evaluating plllog v. rhome: sink across from fridge vs sink in corner.

OK, here's what I think will happen. I'll reach into the fridge and get out an onion and celery and an eggplant and zucchini and broccoli and a bunch of carrots and kale and a bunch of chard and set these bit by bit on the counter to the right of the fridge. I'll close the fridge, grab the bunches and toss them in the sink. I'll scoop up the rest and plop them to the left of the sink. I'll wash the bunches, leave them drying in the sink (hey, maybe the reef should be to the left and not to the right) and slide to the left, toward the corner and the range and start chopping and dicing, etc. Then I'm already in position, once that's done, to swivel-and-plllop into something hot on the stove.

Were the sink in the corner, instead, I'd be dumping all onto the island to the right of the sink, sliding to wash and then reaching and pulling into place somewhere to the left of the sink for prepping, or prepping to the right of the sink and then needing to truck the prepped stuff around the sink to its left and closer to the range. I think this feels more awkward....

I'm getting confused... I must have posted something way-wacky. I don't think I suggested sticking the Stages in the island. I think that would take up the whole island! But the sink I had thought to add in the island also includes an integrated reef; it seemed like a good feature to have in an island, as suggested by juliekcmo (I think that's her name; apologies if I have it wrong).

It does seem as if the e-granite harmony sink I was thinking about might just be too small, rhome. Maybe I need to skip the integrated drainboard though on an island it seemed very sensible. I could look into grooves on the island top, but that seems likely to be expensive. I can also just carry on as per usual with spread towels and drying racks as necessary. I suppose forgoing the integrated reef permits more flexibilty to dry to either right or left of the sink. And I guess if push comes to shove, I'd rather the limited space be used on fully submerged sink than half-useful sink/wet-drying space.

Good for you on remembering the code!

Oh! Okay. I get it about the beam. That makes it easier. :)

I actually think at this point I could swap the relative location of the two is what had me thinking you meant to swap the big sink for the little one. In that case, I don't know what the swap thing meant, but you did and that's what matters here.

Alternative to having a drainboard, from Williams-Sonoma (it's silicone):

The reef can be useful in a prep sink, but not if it's that small.

Sorry, plllog -- I meant a swap between plan A with prep sink straight across from fridge and plan B with prep sink in the corner. I hadn't been thinking about swapping main and prep sinks at all. I'd been thinking about swapping prep sink (potential) location.

I guess really, one's colander is a limiting factor o usefulness of the sink! I should roust that thing out....

Thanks for the movable drainboard pic. You're right, that's just fine. Probably I'd think buying some sort of dedicated mat like that was too expensive. Then I'd go spend $400 on a more expensive, less utilitarian sink with it sort of built in. I need to focus....

I'm going to go work on those elevations and report back when I metally "store" everything.... thanks rhome, plllog and the legions of others (buehl, lavender, etc)

The pass through...I must have missed something a while back...are you not doing the glass fronted dish storage anymore? I thought the access from each side was kind of cool.

What if you put a post on the other side of the doorway and open up that whole upper wall to the dining room...from the fridge to the post? Then you could put your glass upper cabinets there for dishes and display. It would let the light in and you could still pass dishes across the counter.

As for the prep sink, I like it closer to the wall (across from the fridge) as it seems to flow better...at least to me. I'm with you...I'd use the big sink for prep. I don't have a lot of dirty dishes in the sink...but I also don't have kids. It's just me and my husband, so usually dishes are in the dishwasher or on the counter above the dishwasher...waiting to go in.

As for dripping chicken...I'd just use a plate :)