Great Post. Thanks for giving so much detail.

Let me ask you 1 fundamental question. If you had to choose between function and appearances, what is your goal? From reading your post, I would assume function.

If this is true, then I recommend you allocate your budget on the best equipment you can afford, and then fill in cabinetry and finishes as the remainder of the budget allows.

I suggest a 6 burner all gas range (which gets you a large oven and a gas broiler, and a 6 burner range top. You will get a lot of bang for your buck with this). Then if you really need a 2nd oven, do a wall oven with microwave above. Get a quality hood on the range. This means venting outside. You could put the range where you now have the sink, and have the sink by the pass through.

Now to answer some of your questions. Range tops have higher btu burners like on a pro style range. Cooktops have lower btus, more like a standard gas range.

Since you do so much cooking with fresh ingredients, I suggest looking at a sink with a drainboard. I have one on my island, and it is great. Here is mine. If you only have 1 large sink, they come in full sink sizes too.

One last idea is to really plan the space for 4 adults, so you family CAN help in the kitchen. If there is no room for them to safely help, then it isn''t really their fault that you are the only one working in the kitchen.

Have fun!

Here are your sketches for the layout gurus

Thanks for repositioning the drawings, laxsuperguru.

Juliekcmo - definitely function. Form can follow it but I'm pretty nonplussed by form alone, IYKWIM.

Can you really put a range in a bay window cutout? Or were you thinking of losing the glass there. I guess I'd be sad to do that as I did add that cutout specifically to the house! OTOH if it makes everything considerably better... I'll think about it. I take it the OTR hood/MW (do they make a 240 Adventium OTR?) is just no good so you'd get a separate oven and MW?

I have been wondering about those drainboards. I really want a double sink I think, though you could probably get one and build in a drainboard on the side for all that. IME water gets everywhere from them too, but I will look into that. Do you think having the sink underneath the passthrough is not a problem then?

Thanks!

If you got rid of the upper cabs to the right of the sink, could you put a range there? I am not much help, because I also have no upper walls and am probably putting my range on a peninsula and have resigned myself to a hood over it that will obstruct some view.

This will be a very unpopular statement, but depending on how you cook, you could get away without a hood. I grew up with an island cooktop and downdraft. I would say it wasn't adequate for my mother, but she made due. She has the same thing in her home now, but it broke, and rather than have it fixed, she's been getting by without. However, just being her and dad, she doesn't cook like she used to. I know that I need a good hood, because DH and I set off the smoke alarm in our house once a month. :)

What are the actual measurements of the kitchen allotted space? (I can't read it from the plans and don't know how to make it bigger). There seems to be a lot of wasted space in the middle but the drawing may be deceiving. Between the counter and the table is there a sliding glass door or just windows?
You have something marked as Hall that looks like it is actually a passageway from the LR/DR into the kitchen and there is a short 2" wall that doesn't seeming to be doing anything. Is is actually supposed to be in the drawing? The first one (going from L to R) is the end of the counter run which is where the Fridge (?) is supposed to be, I'm wondering about the second one. Thanks
Hints: You have really thought about how you use a kitchen and what you want from it - so a starting point is to think about your old kitchen and think about what you liked about it and what you hated about it. (I don't mean colours, types of appliances etc) Walk yourself through it when preparing a meal, and then cleaning up. How would you change it. Instead of thinking about it as this big hole in your house that has to be filled - which is very daunting - try to put some structure to your thinking - even if the basis is your old kitchen. It gives you a better concrete platform from which to start your thinking about what you need/want to change.
Go on the internet and google U-shaped kitchen plans or G-shaped kitchen plans (with a peninsula) and see if you can find one as a starting point. Right now it seems like you're looking for a starting point which can then be altered if necessary. Stand in the middle of your empty space and imagine yourself prepping, walk around in it (my husband used to stare at me with a funny look when I was doing this).
Oh and by the way, if you didn't already know this, drawers will be your new best friend for storage and ease of use in the kitchen. For all your clutter, what about an appliance garage where things can be stored, either appliances (toaster, mixers etc) or either counter junk that you can throw in when people come over. Those perfect houses that you see all have a big junk drawer or ,like us, we load up all of our counter junk into a basket and put it in our bedroom and when everyone has left bring it back out again.

Controlfreakecs, I dunno what I can get away with no-hood-wise. I grew up without one, and I've never really had one since, either. I do set off the alarm occasionally, though only when I make pancakes and forget to open the doors. I actually have no idea what it would be like to cook with a functioning hood. My parents renovated a few years back and put in a popup downdraft. As for yours, it seems to work well-enough given that they don't actually cook too much anymore.

I'd be perfectly happy to skip the hood but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to get it inspected. I've even been told I need to get a *disposal* to pass inspection. I compost everything and have zero need for a disposal ... grump. So, while I'm not positive, I am pretty sure that I must present some sort of venting mechanism.

bryonroad wrote:

"we load up all of our counter junk into a basket and put it in our bedroom and when everyone has left bring it back out again. "

LOL. Laundry baskets do work well for that and you've got the laundry area close by!

byronroad: what a funny image, loading all your junk into a basket and hiding it in the bedroom! I'm pretty sure I haven't the fortitude for that.

Thanks for the proceeding-suggestions. That little online journal I wrote last night riffing on kitchen utility will in itself help me a lot. I'll try to do as you suggest. Finding quiet moments for this is hard.

I have measurements: the back wall underneath the cutout is 13'-1" from inside wall to wall before it bumps out into the cutout (that's an outside wall). The outer wall beside the cutout is 15' from pass-through wall to midpoint between the two windows. The small pony-wall at the entrance is 30" meant to shelter the fridge, probably. And the distance from the back pass-through wall to the beginning of internal structural structural wall is 94". That internal wall you were referring to is structural and has electrical wiring within -- it can be lengthened but not shortened. It's 49.5" The space across the "hall" that's designated for pantry and a coat or broom closet is 94" too. The plans call for the distance from middle of pass-through wall to outside of outer family room wall to be 28'-2" -- If that's a little off it won't matter to our layout here because I don't think we'll be putting cabinetry out that far.

I'll try to explain the layout verbally -- oh, but if you want to see the plans larger, I'm pretty sure you can follow the link I posted and blow them up via photobucket.

You said "between the counter and the table is there sliding glass door or just windows..." -- do you mean across from the space marked "pantry"? (Which is just a nook currently, floor to ceiling, no doors) -- that is just open space; the chimeric doorway has hash marks but no actual threshold or doors is planned.

That short 2" wall has electrics in it and is structural -- it's currently planned as edging an island -- not sure if what I was thinking of as an island is what you meant as the table. That 2" wall is 49.5".

It all looks very large until you start gunking it up with cabinets, then suddenly it feels small. I whip between giddy elation and terror regularly. Reaching out to you-all is a major improvement!

I could also post a picture of the space if that's at all helpful?

Thanks a million.

A couple other important-to-me thoughts:

I have many very heavy cast iron pans. Basically, I just keep them on the stove; they're too heavy to lug about. But having heavy-duty storage near the range would be important. And I suppose if I actually splurged for a 6-burner range, there would be more storage space up there... ;)

Speaking of storage: the advantium 240 looks better and better. I'm not clear as to whether there's an acceptable cheaper alternative, but even if so, I think it would have the same need of rack-storage space very close to the oven itself. It sounds as if there's a lot of swapping necessary to make alternative cooking modes work and unless that equipment is right nearby, it's all too easy to let this become an unused toy.

TIA.

The location and layout of your kitchen in your fist pic (full-house) are very similar to mine. The two main differences are (1) I have a wall along the side opposite the bay window to house my cooktop & hood and (2) I closed up the entry to the FR a bit to accommodate a corner pantry since I had no other place for one (I really didn't want to close it up but I really had no other viable, to me, choice).

Hood vs no hood - I really think you should think about this. My parents don't have a hood and you can tell...the grease/dust build up around the range (walls & cabinets) as well as the ceiling. Some people say they don't need a hood, but I always wonder if they really cook much or whether they do much more than boil water. I really don't understand b/c I don't do any frying and very little browning of meat, and yet it's amazing the amount of stuff I find when I clean the squirrel cages of my hood every few months. I also think that people don't really realize what's happening to their cabinets/walls/ceiling without a hood. Also, keep in mind that windows, doors, and walls are sealed much better today than they used to, so there is less fresh air being brought into the house in exchange for "polluted" air (from cooking, etc.).

As to a downdraft...I used a Dacor telescoping downdraft in a rental for a week and it was pretty much useless. In reality, downdrafts only work for items that are both right next to the downdraft AND shorter than the top of the fan by a few inches.

You should also know that cooking surfaces that are not against the wall are subject to more and stronger air currents than those against a wall. With a very open floorplan, that means odors, smoke, steam, etc. will spread quickly and infiltrate the rest of your home and linger for quite some time.

I also have to say that just b/c something works for someone (or they're making do with something) that goes against good kitchen advice, doesn't mean it should be recommended for others...which I see happen here quite a bit (more so w/seating overhangs, but hoods also fall into that category).

In your place, I would either get an island hood or look for ways to put my range against a wall...even if I had to erect a wall segment for the range & hood.

Here's what I have. I find a shallow but wide "U" to be a great setup for housing Prep & Cooking Zones and to help protect the Cooking Zone & range from traffic in and through the kitchen.

If you'd like, I will see if I can come up w/something for you....

Are these the dimensions?

Hi Buehl -- thank you so much for responding and offering to don a thinking cap.

The dimensions you list are correct except the 15' along the bay window wall actually extends not to the middle of the window, as you've drawn, but to the middle of the wall between the two windows. FYI, the dimension you've actually drawn turns out to be .... hmmm... it appears this copy of the plan you amended was from my file dnstr.jpg which isn't quite accurate. As it happens there are two windows now along that wall beyond the cutout as depicted in kitchen blank.jpg . Sorry for the discrepancy. I didn't actually ever measure the dimension you show and it's not on any plans -- I can measure it if it matters, but as my plan was for those counters to extend further anyway it may not matter to you. Let me know, please, if this explanation is fuzzy. I wonder if I can get it to put those dimensions on the drawing myself.

Which reminds me: what software do you-all use for playing around with this? Is it specialized or is there some easy way to make do? Years ago I bought a microspot layman CAD program that had a learning curve I just couldn't come up to speed with...

Thanks tons.

I use Microsoft's PowerPoint. The thread linked below has a description of what I do....

Meanwhile, is this correct?

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: Modifying A Poster's Layout

Hi Buehl. your link to cimputer-hints looks terrific; thank you. I'll modify my plans according to your suggestions in a momennt; can't now. for the moment, please note that no, the 15' is beyond that point you draw, inbetween window "H" and "B" -- the counter is sketched in on this layout -- it's where that counter goes to the wall that the 15' ends. I'll try to do it later if you haven't beat me to it.

I think it's really, really neat that you like to do this stuff....

BTW, the plans you're writing into are +/- to scale, so it couldn't be that the bottom length is 7'10" while the upper at just a little bit further along is 15'. Actually, I can tell from this sketch that the line you show should be 94" + 27" = 121" == 10'1". Not as big as originally thought! And so the remainder would be 4'11".

I'm going to try to post a copy of the PP file I've made to indicate true dimensions:

It worked! How cool is that...

So I guess the question is, what is the minimum wall length required for a useful stove? I have always wanted one of those big 6-burner ranges but hadn't really thought, I dunno, they were in the cards for me -- I guess they feel a little pretentious. But the truth is I really would love to have one and would certainly use it, a lot. Trouble is I also like to have stuff to the side of the stove (oils, spices, etc), so if I go to the larger stove too, that would be a large expanse required for a stove....

I was thinking maybe that electrics wall could be extended to provide a place for the range. Dunno. But I do hear y-all that sticking a range on a wall is a way-better plan if at all possible.

I find this very despair-inducing and once again, must mention my appreciation for the help.
The wall at the corner is 30", BTW.

The files are all at photobucket...

Here is a link that might be useful:

Hi - we had same problem - we tore down the walls to open the kitchen up - found a web site that is full of ideas on this type of kitchen - I have used some of the ideas and they are working - especially the use of the drawers and the island -
good luck

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Interior Design

I understand the desire for open and light, but to me, closing in that pass-through would be the best solution.

This is a conceptual drawing - not a plan.

People here are rabid about hoods because it really helps keep the kitchen clean and odor free. In general, given the same cfms, a wall hood will work better than an island hood which will work better than a downdraft. Its simple physics - combining the fact that hot air rises with a wall hood's ability to remove more fumes because one direction is cut off from drifting fumes.

There is a lot of fear about island hoods, but there needn't be. Generally speaking, you buy a big enough motor to set the hood up high enough (30-36") so its not in your line of sight. The hood should be wider than your cooktop - if you get a 36" rangetop, you should get a 42" hood. The hood also needs to be deeper than your cooktop. So if your burner area is 20ish inches deep, you should really get a 27" deep hood. The few inches to the front, back and both sides increase the amount of fumes removed - the fumes spread out as they leave the surface.

This uses a cooktop so you could do a downdraft. If you're not big on fried food or grilling, that could work for you. There are some now that rise up about 14" or so and be all reports, they work for their users. I've never had one and can't speak to that. The basic problem, other than trying to overcome basic physics (hot air rises) and its position at the rear, seems to be that if the downdraft has power, it can suck the heat from a gas flame or create enough turbulence to extinguish a flame.

{{gwi:1972095}}

Here is how my 36 inch range looks with 24 inch counters.

Here you can see the counter depth, the transition to the stove depth, and the stove. The total depth of the stove from wall to front as installed (gas inlet is behind stove, which takes up about an inch ) is 31 inches.

This stove is NOT counter depth like a Wolf. That is because a counter depth range is too shallow to take 2 sheets across. Mine is deep enough to take 2 jelly roll pans, or a "lunch lady" sheet pan. The full commercial size pan. With this large oven, I don't feel the need for 2 ovens.

The overall amont I spent for an all gas range and hood was less than I would have spent for a gas rangetop and double ovens and hood.

I do a lot of baking, and just love the gas. It also has a gas infared broiler, which is fantastic.

My hood extends 24 inches from the wall, and since it is against the wall, the capture area works very well.

Hi all; thanks.

bmore: thanks for the conceptual plan. Can you tell me please: is "R" Refrigerator and "O", Oven? Then there's a cooktop in the island and sink underneath the pass through... I think I get it now I start to write it out. Will this give enough cabinet space?? I hadn't thought of many of these ideas, so I'll play with them some more. Thanks.

Hoods: Yes, I see the use. Funny thing is, never having had one, even after all these years I've had no comparison to really understand that the unpleasant gunk which settles all over everything up high, could be mitigated with a fan. I never really realized that. I think the almost wax-like sealing patina of beigey gunk is probably volatiles from the gas flame settling up and down. Since leaving home at 17 I've hated and fought that muck but I'm having one of those a-ha moments realizing that -- duh -- this is likely what the whole hood-thing is all about. Not so much the occasional setoff of the fire alarm as preventing all the gunk from building up on your cabinets. And likely more importantly, in your lungs.

I get it now.

Thanks all. I'm really enjoying the suggestions.

juliekcmo: can you tell me the brand of the stove? I hadn't really thought about these sorts of industrial stoves but I will look into it. I can see how this route really could save money in the long run. Buying all the features á la carte is surely pricey. I take it you like the range. Another thing about these types of commercial ranges is my stereotype that they're meant more for show than use. This seems to be often the case in my neck of the woods (LA), but obviously needn't be, and shouldn't reflect on whatever *I* choose to do with it. It may be, as many here are advocating, a good solution.

Hi, My range is a Thermador. All gas. We remodeled about 10 years ago, so mine is the model that was replaced with the model with the star burners.

And yes, I love it. Nothing computerized. Gas broiler is outstanding. And as I said, it is deep enough to hold large 18 x26 sheet pans.

We have a 600 cfm best by broan hood that is on the wall venting directly outside. Hood area is 24x36.

Yes, you've got it.

I don't really know how much storage you need but you've got above the sink, about 5 feet tall, shallow storage, the pantry and the broom closet. I think I'd do drawers under the window seat too.

I forgot something about downdrafts. Most of them can't be used with a range. There are a few makers (dacor is one) who support using a their own downdraft with some models of their own ranges but void the warranty if you use any other range or downdraft. People SHOULD be able to do this, but the mechanics of a downdraft mean its a crap shoot as to whether any given one will be able to fit with any given range.

You might also consider a "dual fuel" range...one w/an electric oven + gas cooking surface. However, I don't know if you can get dual fuel in a pro-style range.

I've read from many here & on Cooking (or Appliances) that electric generally works best for the oven (baking, etc.) while gas works best for the cooking surface. As I have all electric and rarely bake at my parents (all gas), I can't attest one way or the other. It's just something to think about.

One advantage of separate appliances, though, is that with a wall oven you can mount it higher than the oven in a range. This allows you to mount it at an ideal height to reduce bending & lifting as well as making it easier to check on food in the oven (whether it's a visual check through the window or you open for a temperature check or to baste, etc.).

Another advantage, of course, is that if the oven or the cooking surface dies (but not both) you don't have to replace the entire range, you just replace the affected appliance.

All that being said, it is usually less expensive to buy a range than it is to by cooktop/rangetop + ovens.

I do have one comment about Juliekcmo's hood and her deep range, if the hood is only 24" deep and the front burners of her range stick out farther than that (and they appear to in her pics), then the hood probably does not do that good a job venting out smoke, odors, fumes, etc. from the front burners (unless it is very, very powerful). However, a 27" deep hood would probably work fine.

About the pass-through. I would think you wouldn't want a sink in front of it. The presence of a sink will greatly reduce the pass-through's use for passing things to the DR. My parents have a pass-through to their DR and the counter is clear in front of it (the sink is under the window on another wall) and it is of great use for staging dishes, food, drinks, etc. when not only the DR is in use but also the LR. Based on my experience, I highly recommend you keep the counter in front of the pass-through free and clear of appliances, fixtures, etc.

I do like having electric ovens as well as the gas range. We put the ovens on a different wall than the range and it has worked out well. I think it is the big island in the middle (but oddly shaped) that makes it easy to work in the kitchen.

Hi again all -- I've had something of an epiphany understanding the scope of this planning process; that it's not really obvious how to lay out a good kitchen and that I've a lot of work to do, me alone, in getting one.

So. I had a brief talk with dh, with whom I rarely talk (!), and stated a couple things:

1. Placing the oven in the island is just a lousy plan. I'd like to remove that from consideration. Therefore:

2. We need to compromise somewhere on a wall space for the range; either where the pass through is or against the outside wall.

3. This leads me to re-question the whole general layout of the kitchen-FR. It was our architect who wanted to force FR space side-by-side with the Kitchen, sort of abutting but distinct spaces. Me, my ideal kitchen has always been a basically giant room, ideally, say, a open-floor farm house where the kitchen just elides with everything else. As far as I'm concerned, life fits into the kitchen; life *is* the kitchen. My ideal kitchen must basically have room for a rocking chair for someone to keep me company while I'm stuck cooking, all day long. So I don't want to conform my kitchen space to make room for a "FR" space; I want the FR to fit in alongside the kitchen as best it can.

This really, really changes things; it gives me a tad of hope about the whole project for the first time in weeks, for one thing. Fortunately, DH is willing to go along with this re-visualizing. I don't think he really gets why it matters very much, but he hasn't any objections. Mostly, he just wants the laundry to be more out-of-sight, out-of-mind (!), and probably even more than me, he just wants this all to go away....

So.

If anyone out there is still willing or thinking about giving a hand in laying out this kitchen, I think I've a new way forward now. Someone asked (sorry, can't locate who it was -- was it rhome?) whether I'm willing to reduce the pass through. The answer is yes. But I'm also now willing to move the range against the outside wall, the bay-window wall. Formerly this would have encroached on the FR, but with my new understanding of FR=Kitchen, it's OK.

I need, next, to do as was noted on the 'Point of order: floor plans' thread (which is getting interconnected with this one), and sketch out some zone-maps. I am guessing that if/when I can do that, an answer as to where to locate the range will fall out. I suppose I also need to figure out what range to get. Money is an object unfortunately, so I need to do some cost:benefit thinking. Someone noted that getting a range will probably be cheaper than separate cooktop and ovens. These two issues will be next focus of attention.

Thanks, all, for your patience. I haven't the time to ponder this all too long -- we have no kitchen right now!! But it will help not to be in denial about the need to scrutinize habits and priorities and the absence of fairy know-it-all godmothers....

I'm sorry, I'm so terrible at reading plans that I have no idea whether this suggestion will help you or not. But, when I read you contemplating putting the stove in front of a passthrough, I immediately thought of shanghaimom's kitchen. She has a beautiful arrangement with a wall just behind the stove, then a passthrough on each side, with cabinetry on the other side of each passthrough. Do a search for her finished kitchen pictures (the search function here is terrible; if nothing pops up, then use google and the terms gardenweb shanghaimom finished kitchen). Even if her layout won't work for you, perhaps the pictures will spark an idea that will.

Hi jenva -- I think I found the link you are referring to; I put it in the url box below.

Wow; it's really something! Thanks for the ideas...

Here is a link that might be useful: Shanghaimom's kitchen with mirrored passthroughs

A couple of quick thoughts.

1. You can do appliance research over on the appliance forum. AJMadison.com has most major appliance brands and a good search engine.

2. You mentioned that a range would be cheaper than a separate cooktop and ovenS (plural). Not so in my research. A good 36" range is in the neighborhood of at least $5K. If you need another oven, you're talking about about $2K as they are very expensive. The total is about $7K.

I've chosen a Wolf 36" gas cooktop for $2K and separate double electric wall ovens for about $3K. Total is $5K. Cheaper than a range plus wall oven.

These are new appliance prices, but maybe you'd be looking for used ones. And yes, you can get a "pro" look in dual-fuel.

Sorry, don't have time to read everything on your post, but do you want the pass through to be used for passing through or just for the appearance of connectedness? If for just the appearance, you could put the sink in front. I agree that you should check out Shangaimom's range at her passthrough. Very ingenious!

Here are five ideas. Note that when there's a peninsula or pass-through, it's at least 30" deep for use as a Baking Center as well as for projects (crafts, wrapping gifts, etc.) or for staging food for the DR or other.

Note that I put in an Advantium...it's GE's version of a MW/Convection/Speed Oven. There are similar ones out there from different manufacturers, but the most well-known is probably the Advantium. It works as a speed cook oven, convection oven, warming/proofing, & sensor MW. The Advantium comes in two sizes (27" & 30") as well as two power "levels" (120V & 240V). I've linked to them on the GE Profile site (Profile is GE's mid-level line, below Monogram, on-par w/Cafe, above the "regular" GE products).

I did draw one up with the range on the outside wall...but it only works if you're willing to eliminate one of the windows. (Layouts #5 & 5a)

I also took a few and showed you where the various work zones would be.

Here they are...
[In all cases, 1 square = 6" x 6"]

Now, some with the three primary work zones (Prep, Cooking, Cleanup)

Here is a link that might be useful: GE Profile Advantiums

Yowza, buehl -- someday I am so going to have to cook you dinner. [someday I am so going to have to cook my family dinner ... :( ]

I will study and report back. I did notice a comment about wondering whether we're willing to nix the window and the answer, sadly, is yes (they're brand new. Geesh. How stupid is this?????).

I have been thinking about the Advantium. I notice the 240V seem functionally very different from the 120V -- in that the 240 seem to work while the 120 don't. I'm willing to add a dedicated 240 line if necessary. Course, I don't know what that would cost....

Thanks and I'm looking forward to my studying! Thanks.

Hi Buehl at al. -- I am so excited, I think I'm starting (with 250% of your help) to begin to mock up a plan of sorts...

It's funny because this is similar to how we started, but is importantly different.

I need still to think a bit about zones and the like. I'm actually procrastinating getting some work done here, seriously -- so I think I can set this aside for a moment and try to earn a bit of the money that might go some way toward affording this now.

But what do you think of this? Not as a final, as a first step? (second step?)

As for your sketches -- I don't want to close up the current entry way because there's that pantry off the hall in the other direction. It could be used for something else, but still I think the hallway would feel terribly confined.

I'm not positive I can get rid of the pass through wall; in fact I'm nearly certain that there's a header there that is structural and I cannot nix it...I'd say 99.9% positive about that. So I kept that opening and basically flipped the peninsula from your plan no. 2.

I suppose I could have copied more of your elements; I was having a very hard time getting the computer to work as you have done.

As I look back at what I've done now, it looks +/- exactly like it was earlier. Geesh.

I have a cabinet question that probably I should put in another thread, but will drop here: I was thinking of putting glass cabinets on either side of the pass-through that were glass on both sides, accessible from both sides. The thought was this might work to basically allow glassware and plates to be accessed from the dining room for setting. It's been suggested to me, however, that this might not work as one generally loads from the DW-side so what you want to use is generally in the front there, and not readily available from the DR. Any thoughts? Anyone tried to do this little trick? Also, it might be hard to access the cabinets with the way the DW folds down; no room between hinged door and cabinets... maybe if I flipped the DW and sink...

I think I neglected to make the pass-through counter 30" as suggested. Much more to do here, just plopping in the appliances, kinda sorta.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Drat. This isn't what I wanted to post... sorry!

I updated this sketch and I don't know why this old one is still showing.

{{gwi:1972106}}

Weird ... I had to erase and repost a number of times to get this to show. Anyway, this is what I meant to show; please ignore the previous picture.

I need to work out storage, etc.

Maybe electric oven should be over by range?

Not sure about prep sink... getting pricey!

I'm just going to talk about a coupla things. This is just talk about issues and trade-offs, not criticism. So this is about a half-thought out plan that I made up just so it wasn't critiquing an existing one.

{{gwi:1972107}}

I'm drew in detail both cleanup and baking prep. I am showing two blue lines that illustrate routes used with or without a prep sink. The rest of this is long and highly opinionated.

Ok. So, let's start with cleanup. We've mostly all said that a 4 foot deep cleanup area is a bit much for "cleaning the clean up area" so this steps it back into the window a foot - yielding a three foot deep space which might be reachable (depending on god, the universe, your height, sink gismos and everything). The other thing it does is create a nice wide aisle around the open dishwasher - when duffers pass through on their way to Doritos or a beer or whatever, the human dishwasher can ignore them.

A pass through area with double sided upper cabinets is entirely possible, but you need to put a ledge or a ledge plus a shallow base cabinet in the dining room side for "sit down" space for people getting dishes from the cabinets.

I'm having some trouble understanding your friend's criticism about stuff being on the wrong side. With double sided glass fronted wall cabinets, you need to remember that the entire contents will be plainly visible. I find that leads to very few junky places and more order for me. The cabinets are only about 12-13" deep, so its is difficult to think of what would be piled up in front of your plates or soup bowls. Perhaps they were thinking of base cabinets?

Food prep (of any sort) has a flow to it. Stuff from the ref usually goes to the sink, unless its a snack - in which case it either moves towards the dishes or the microwave or both! From the sink, or directly from the ref if you belong to my tribe, it travels to the prep counter area to be joined with water, prep tools, pantry stuff and pots or baking pans which are then put on the range or in the oven or the micro. The process may later need to drain something or slide stuff out to cool or be stired frequently. The messy leftovers go to a disposal or trash or compost. The packaging goes to the trash or recycling. The dirty pots and prep tools go to cleanup.

So the arrangement of the appliances is important, and the positioning of water is vitally important.

So, the cleanup seems good because you don't need to walk much at all - just for putting pots or prep stuff back. Trash isn't going to be optimally positioned (unless you're a garbage disposal person) caused it would need to be under the sink, probably forcing you to keep the under sink door open.

Cooking is a little bit freaky. This is mostly because of the relative locations of the ref and the pantry and the prep area. You have one of those places where some of the spacial relations are difficult.

Since all of the dry storage is across the hall, it's nice if the ref is closer to it BUT the ref can't be placed directly on the hall wall. It probably won't be able to open completely, leaving you to wrestle with it when you want to clean it. It's also not perhaps the best idea to bury your only ref inside the prep zone as it is the most frequently accessed appliance - particularly by those other folks who live in your house. Adding cabinets between the wall and the ref push the pass through up towards the sink.

In every iteration of a corner plan with the sink in the bay - the sink or the dishwasher have an issue. Either the sink is too close to the corner and can only be used from one direction AND/OR the dishwasher is on the wrong side. If we reversed the sink and dw in the sample plan, the sink is better positioned, but the dw is not as it opens in front of the cabinets you like to use for dishes. Unloading becomes a two-step, first to the counter and then the cabinets after you close the door or drawer. In the ones with a corner and the range where the ref are traded, the dishwasher opens between the range and sink potentially causing serious accidents as its possible to turn from the range and trip over the dishwasher.

The ref is shown near the sink. You can reach the peninsula counter to sit things down, which mitigates the distance somewhat, but it still might be crazy-making... Is it more crazy making than having people constantly walking behind you?

Since the pass-thru moved up closer to the sink, I could put the range where shown. Its got counter on both sides. It won't prevent others from using the sink, altho others can prevent you from sliding over to dump a colander.

Adding a prep sink kills the dark blue triangle that goes into the cleanup zone - always a good thing but really good in this example because that pot full of water and pasta can now pretty much always be drained without getting someone to move first.

Other crazy stuff:
---- A person needs at least two feet of counter edge. If they are adults, it might feel slightly squished in.
---- The overhang for counter height seating should be at least 15". This isn't for the depth of the stools - its for knees.
---- The peninsula is tempting to hang a wall cabinet, but if you do, the second stool will be kinda difficult to use because the wall cabinet will be in the seated person's face and the last door is guaranteed to hit them in the head!
---- The ref location is hard to plan. There are two kinds of people in this world. The ones who get everything they are going to use out of the ref at once; and then there's my tribe. My tribe kinda fetches this, that and the other thing outta the ref all during the prep and cooking process. People say they can learn to be the other type, but I don't know.
---- Same thing with the views and prep-or-cooking-or cleanup. To me, windows are the most wasted in front of a cleanup area. Not the light wasted, but the views! When I'm doing cleanup, I'm looking at the dishes, not the view. And with dishwashers, I'm not in front of that window for very long. I think windows are more useful at prep or cooking (both!).
---- Also consider the social aspects of any plan. In this plan, you are oriented to the family room, and primarily the family room windows. You'd have a side view of the bay window - a front view would happen while rinsing veg - maybe. When you're cooking or doing cleanup, you'd be turned away from others. In all of the "real" designs, other things happen in your interactions with people and the views. Be sure you end up with the ones you'd like.

Oy, bmorepanic -- I'm not sure I can be more panicked! So much to think about ... so much to worry about. I will have to reread what you've said at least 4 more times.

Thank you so much for thinking so hard about this. I need to puzzle hard now....

It's not to worry you! It's to give you something to think about as you consider your plans.

When your space is challenging, it can seem like a lot of work. We all want the best possible kitchen for you and I know you want it too. I know its overwhelming right now, but sooner than you think, you'll have a plan.

Thanks, bmorepanic. I am pretty miserable at the moment with a renovation-out-of-control and no kitchen... I haven't the luxury of time to plan and decide carefully. But I really, really appreciate you sticking with me and helping; you-all are a real shaft of light in a rather sickeningly dark tunnel. Good news is: I won't be pestering you for long as I've just got to get this decided. And now that my head is out of the sand, I'll start on on it ... later. Thanks a million.

How deep is your bay window well? Ours is 18" and we have no problems cleaning inside it. It probably could have been another 6" deeper and we would have still been fine...but we're fairly tall (ranging from 5'10" to 6'5") so 18" is probably the maximum I'd go for short-to-average height.

If your window well is no more than 18" deep, then I think you're fine having the sink & DW "outside" the well. If not, then I think you may have to do something about that DR wall so you have room on the left. Either that or let the cabinet/sink run die into the wall (i.e., no turning the corner).

You can shorten/break into a load-bearing wall, you just need to install a header designed for load bearing in place of the wall segment.

Well, there is a third option, but it depends on how you feel about a sink that's not centered in the window.

Hi -- I'm in the process of drafting a precisely accurate rendering of the kitchen. I'll repost that in a new thread; this is pretty unwieldy. I need to think about bmore's points and these too.

Thanks!

BTW, I don't really have a problem not-centering the sink in the window. For that matter, I don't really mind setting up within the bay window either. First, the true draft...