My current kitchen breaks so many rules it's ridiculous!

First off, it is only 9X9 and open to the dining area.

The counters and appliances are in a L shape due to the 5' X 5' window on outer wall. There is only 6 1/2 ft of countertop.

It has a corner sink that's set too far back from the front edge to reach without leaning in to do dishes, a stove shoved directly against a floor to ceiling pantry, no stove hood, no dishwasher, no disposal, and a full size fridge that hangs out in the hall 3".

The stove is unlevel and rusted- even the burners. The fridge is haunted (makes quavering noises at all hours). The SS sink is dented. The floors are warped laminate. (Can you say leaky ice maker?)

The counter top is white tile squares with RED grout, and the upper cabinets were installed UPSIDE DOWN! You have to lift up anything on the bottom shelf almost 2" to get it out. By the way, they are painted red and white. The under cabinet lighting is a flourescent tube plugged into a yellowed outlet. UGH. My ceiling lights are 14' above my head.

After living with this for 6 years, we are renovating. I plan to customize to fit ME. I will still have some GW no-nos.

By removing window and sliding door, I can now make a U shape kitchen with one long arm. 13' x 9' x 9'. This is open to the dining area.

I won't use gas, but I will install induction stove - totally out of the norm hereabouts. Stove will be in the middle of my U.

I plan to install the stove hood higher than normal so I can pull out my pasta sieve out of my stock pot while under the hood and even lift off my pressure canner top while still under the hood. The hood will also be retractable so my hubby won't conk his head frying my eggs in the morning.

The new, counter-depth fridge will be at the end of the long arm - 10 feet away from stove - but I want it there to hide part of the counter from the dining area, and be closest to the door for refreshments all summer.

The counter tops will be laminate - I LIKE Formica, and I will have almost 20' glorious ft of countertop!

I will install a 3 bowl SS sink - no disposal. No separate prep sink, but the 3rd bowl is what I will use to pour out stuff while still being able to do dishes. I probably will put in a tall, restaurant style faucet/sprayer.

The dishwater will be at the end of the shorter arm, next to the sink - perfect spot to drop off the dirty dishes from the dining area.

I will install prefinished, prefab cabinets from a box store. They will cost 1/5 of the quotes I was getting from custom cabinet shops. They will be MILES above what I have now, and I will probably outlive them. I will love dark walnut stained beech rather than white/red chipping paint. And heaven forbid, I plan to stagger the heights so I can fit in taller cabinets over the sink, stove and smaller window. Hubby will install.

I plan to use puck lights under the cabinets so I can move them to wherever I please when I get into the flow of things, and there will be no backsplash other than the Formica.

Flooring will probably be vinyl planks glued to our slab. How boring, but practical with dogs, mud, sand, and ME!

Yes, I plan to use a lazy susan corner unti. I like them.
Yes, there will be a blind corner cabinet, but the RO unit tank can fit in there. (My RO won't waste water...it comes out of the ground, and goes back into the ground right on site, we live next to a lake.)
Yes, there will be 60" between one arm of counters and and the other, but my hubby and I are big people - this will give us some moving around space!
Yes, I am keeping the knotty pine ceiling in the kitchen - I like it!

No island. I need space to move in.
Rain forest green counters. I know some people don't like them.
5 feet from the cook top to the sink. Is that breaking a rule?
No shopping around for a faucet. Just finding a floor sample in a kitchen store.
I used the cabinet knobs that were a promotion with the cabinets.
Saved my old black dish washer. Everything new appliance is stainless. Looks fine.
I hope I don't sound snarky. I had a lot of help here at GW and I appreciate it. This site gave me confidence and listened when I was doubtful.
And- we ripped out the tub in the master bath and have a fabulous 7 foot shower, which also meant taking space from my closet. There is a tub in the 2nd bath.
I'm happy.

This post was edited by sixtyohno on Wed, Nov 26, 14 at 15:23

I don't know if this counts as rule-breaking, but the most controversial thing we did was to do a gut remodel without changing the fact that our kitchen is in a main traffic path. In fact it IS the main traffic path, from the small front rooms of an old house to a larger set of living and dining rooms that seem to be a later addition.

We made huge efforts to mitigate the traffic issue, including spending a lot of money to open a load-bearing wall and move plumbing on a slab. But it's still a corridor kitchen. and minus the breakfast area w/a banquette, it's probably smaller than some of the pantries I see on GW. That's okay, the end result looks amazing and works great for us.

What a great thread !
and glad to see you taking a step back and reading again.

I will live here until I die, so resale. [snort] You'll have to drag me out in a Hefty bag to the curb.

I do crazy things like changing my mind, taking down my cabinets and giving them away.
I am going to rip out a perfectly good window and eventually my lovely Wilsonart counter. I want counterdepth windows and soapstone.

Different kind of against the rules, but come on. NONE of this has to be permanent, right? It would be nice if our styles never changed or we felt locked into whatever we chose 5 years ago. But that doesn't happen. I have the luxury of changing my mind because I'm not finished, going on 10 years.

I've used mismatched cabinets I've "matched" with paint and/or stripping and staining. I've chosen different handles and knobs for different areas. I've made my own pieces and look.

Someday, when I'm actually finished to the picture point, I'll share!

C.

Too many to list.

Redoing kitchen after dishwasher leak. Removed a peninsula between the kitchen and dining room.

Not using a KD; doing it on my own since I have done others and they have turned out well.

All the cabinets were built on site (all in one piece for each wall). I cut them up ( yes, I did it by myself, I have my own tools and expertise) to reconfigure cabinets.

I will have an island with narrower ( 38"- 40") aisles since it is only me and 3 dogs living here. Cabinets are oak and 40 years old but in great condition with pull outs and lazy susan.

All food other than in the refrigerator is stored in the pantry in the laundry room.

Soffit above cabinets stayed since it has a gallery rail to hold fancy plates and old kitchen tools, etc. Pot rack above island and an antique stained glass lamp ( this is the first house I have used it in and I have had it for 40 years)!!!

Grey painted backsplash with a band of tiles around the kitchen as wide as the light switches and outlets that will have copper tiles to match the copper pots hanging from the pot rack and some cobalt blue tiles randomly to accent the cobalt blue bottles on the window sill. Switch and outlet plates are painted hammered copper color.

I bought the island as a counter height table. It has all sorts of distressed features such as black places where nails were in it and big (tight) knots. Not sure yet if I will leave it natural or stain it darker.

Can't wait for it to be done.

We kept our oak cabinets and did not paint them for our kitchen update. They are Kraftmaid from the early 90s and in such great shape and DH would not hear of painting them.

Actually with granite counters and subway tile backsplash, most people's first comment is that the love the cabinets as assume they are new. They actually look better than they did before minus the brass hardware and exposed hinges.

Let's see...in our last kitchen we
-put the DW next to the prep sink in the island. It was the best spot for it at the time.
-put the DW so that it opened directly across the way from the stove, which turned out to be almost a non issue in the 48" aisle
-located the kitchen so that it was directly in view of the front door because it had a view of the back yard, which was important to me as a mom of a young family.
-put a large window over the back counter, which left us with only 2 24" wide upper cabinets besides the ones over the stove and fridge. I wanted the light and the view and forgot to plan for more storage. Oops.
-did a run of the mill extremely low cost vent fan. I used the kitchen for a few years without one, but we thought we needed *something* to finish it off when we went to sell.
-made a deep pantry that really should have had roll out trays to make it fully useful. We originally had 2 fridges in the kitchen, but figured the pantry would appeal more to buyers. By the time we got it built, DH wasn't interested in investing any more time or money into the kitchen.
-had a variety of non-standard counter heights. I wanted a lowered baking area since I'm not that tall (fortunately, neither are the new owners!) We removed an L of counter to do our fridge bump-out, and rather than replace the entire counter, we only replaced the bit that was taken out with a raised MW cabinet.

We were very thankful that the house sold for full asking price 1 week after being listed. : )

Here is a link that might be useful: Our farmhouse kitchen reveal

scrappy25- You did go with the mirrors in the upper doors- I'm not the only one, anymore! Isn't it great to have real storage behind and still have the light reflecting back? I was head deep in moving before you put them in and probably missed a reveal. Would you share a picture?

"I think that those with the knowledge and eye for design and space planning are essential to here and they are so generous with their time and ideas. They make us think and force us to go back to the drawing board.

Sometimes though, both money and space constraints prevent us from following all the rules. And then of course there is that pesky little thing called personal wishes that work best for us and our families.

The best thing I did, which aren't rules but are great ideas, was to put in a prep sink and drawers, drawers, drawers."

Amen to all of this! before I found this site I had no clue about most anything regarding the LO of a kitchen. in all my yrs I've only known 2 people who updated their kitchens - that was paint, flooring and counters only plus 1 person who did a full remodel. I had no idea so many people did this stuff... I've gotta say I've learned so much here and if I ever do remodel or build (no way!) I'll know what to do (mostly) and I'll probably still be here so i'll post here for help.

All in all, some of us have to do some things we would rather not because of $s and space. And there IS that thing called personal choice. There are a number of things I wouldn't do just because I don't want to - like put in granite counters. And where I am now I'm having the island removed so I can have my table in the kitchen.

I came here because I planned to redo the kitchen but I got exhausted just cleaning, putting in extra shelves, having some flooring put down and sorting thru most of my stuff (not done yet) etc. I decided the kitchen is mostly fine (with a few tweaks). The cabs are not falling apart, it has running water and electricity - I can live with it. I do still plan to have a lower cabinet changed to DRAWERS!

Oh, yeah - our kitchen is in full view of the front door, which sometimes bugs me, but if it were hidden and I had a messy kitchen, that wouldn't gain me much time before the people at the door saw my mess. I kind of see the point of a formal entry, but also I kind of don't...and this is an informal house anyway...

"Rain forest green counters. I know some people don't like them.
5 feet from the cook top to the sink. Is that breaking a rule?
No shopping around for a faucet. Just finding a floor sample in a kitchen store."

I LOVE the rain forest green - that might even cause me to put granite somewhere.
nope, 5' isn't a no-no. that's a good amount of work space.

and faucets - I've looked for a few yrs and can only find 3 that aren't taller than me that I like... I don't like the really tall ones. anything over 10" is really to tall for my liking. But come spring when I can scrape up an extra 200.00 (about my limit) I'll get one and have it put in on my new (used) double drop in bisque sink. The old SS one will go to my handyman's cabin.

btw, a 10x10 kitchen isn't a no-no either. We have lots of small kitchens on here. Many people don't want to post theirs but they should! a LOT of us out here have small kitchens. More need to post their small redone kitchens. Mine is something like 10 x11 or maybe 11 x 9. I forget... I only have about 3.5' of counter work space on the corner area between sink and stove. Over the dw (used 3x in the past yr). I also have about 1' on each of the run ends .

Great post! I am about to start my 2nd Kitchen. I live in NYC and I think most of us here that aren’t uber wealthy keep our existing layouts and work around them. I’d far rather spend $$ on nicer finishes than moving things. My layouts have been stove, DW and sink and it’s what I’m used to, it’s been ingrained for MANY years. I’ve had the best meals from the “worst” kitchens.

Well, I did not go with the very obvious best layout for the kitchen itself. It would have been a perfect triangle, everything efficient and at your fingertips. But:

1) We are in a one-bedroom condo with neighbors above and below. Our venting and plumbing are all in the same place in each condo, stacked, and some is shared, running vertically through each apartment and up to the roof. It makes moving things -- the venting in particular -- difficult.

2) The kitchen itself has no window, so it was one of my highest priorities to maximize the light in the space.

3) Our dining room could seat only four, and our living room was awkwardly long.

So instead, we added a wide open arched doorway in the wall where the refrigerator should have gone for the perfect kitchen layout (requiring everything else in the kitchen to shuffle around for it all to fit without that wall). The resulting kitchen layout isn't ideal, but it'll be fine. And it is similar to the original layout, which works well with all the difficult-to-move things.

The arch is architecturally pretty, brings light into the kitchen from the living room, and makes the kitchen feel huge and airy. It also has a nice open-but-still-separate effect, so the kitchen and living room both benefit from open layout (feeling bigger, can talk to people and watch TV from most places in the kitchen), but it doesn't feel as if we have a kitchen in the living room.

Additionally, I won't go in to how, but the arch gives me space to pull my extra-deep console table away from the back of the couch and seat 8 people (10-12 with leaves added to the table) without moving any other living room furniture. This is a one bedroom condo, so that is SUCH a coup. We have the full use of our living room during parties in addition to being able to seat everybody easily at the dinner table. It also means that the original dinky dining room that would only seat four is superfluous, so now I have set it up as a home gym, which is lovely. Who gets a bonus room in a one-bedroom condo?

There was also one other kitchen layout after adding the arch that would have been better on paper than what we chose. But if we'd gone with that, though work flow would have been undeniably better, both work zones would have faced a wall. Now one still looks at a wall, and the other looks out over the living room with views of an entire wall of windows, the fireplace, and the TV. Being able to see windows from the main prep space of my windowless kitchen makes it seem a lot less windowless. Also the layout we went with helps define the bonus space as a separate room.

So in essence, we went with the third-best kitchen layout in order to have a better dining room, better living room, better kitchen views, better kitchen atmosphere, and architectural charm. Plus we got a bonus space out of it!

The layout was probably our biggest sin. But there are several others.

Oh gee, lots of things.

I wanted a very different kitchen, and I started with a quite different space; 31.5' long by 14.5". I have no exterior windows in the kitchen per se; two large windows look into a windowed dining room, and I opened up one wall to a breakfast room that has windows.

I have no freezer in my kitchen, it's in the pantry across the hall.

I have no prep sink, i have two faucets on my main sink. I have an island with no seating and a second "island" on wheels" that is only 18" wide.

I have no backsplash anywhere, but I do have stone behind my stove, to match the fpl on the reverse side.
I have a garden faucet for a pasta filler. I have a large range with 3 ovens that is freestanding; no counters on either side.

I have wood counters and runnels next to my sink.

I have five doorways.

I am sure there is more.

mtnrdredux, I would like to see pictures of your kitchen.

I've got a few but probably my biggest rule breaker is I have a corner sink. I'm perfectly happy with it and even though my kitchen was gutted and rebuilt I didn't change the sink location. My kitchen isn't huge and by putting it in the corner it gave me two long runs of counter for prep and gave me a second drawer stack for storage. I have an OTR microwave for similar reasons, no where else to put it that wouldn't cause me to lose either storage space or counter space.

I haven't redone my kitchen yet. I have a KD plan that is the best plan I've seen for my use of the kitchen so far, though I'm not married to it. If I go with KD's plan, here are (some of) the rules I'll be breaking.

1. Main isle is 3'5"
2. Main (narrow) isle is the only path from the rest of the house to the garden.
3. Cooktop directly across from sink.
4. No vent
5. No backsplash (I don't have one now & never missed it. Could always add one later)
6. No traditional oven (convection microwave instead)

I just love this thread all to pieces. We're still planning, but now I feel so much better about my list of evil transgressions. Freedom! (Thank you, Carrieb.)

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

I had to admit this, we went with Chinese cabinet... I know! We are worried about the quality but it's what our budget fit. The shop is very helpful. We had to exchange some doors and drawers but the process is pretty painless...

New construction, so these were choices, not compromises. All were done after much thought.

No island, peninsula instead. No prep sink, no disposal. No separate pantry. Didn't worry about distance to haul groceries in. Dropped ceiling to 8 ft to avoid a triangular space over cabs on gable end wall.

Most transgressive? Maybe the 12" overhang for the peninsula seating. It's fine. Oh yeah, 36 inch hood over 36" cooktop, too. There are probably others that don't come to mind! But the list of things I learned and incorporated is longer.

I have one that no one has mentioned, our upper cabinets are only 15" above our counters. I'm short, and I have two daughters. (My husband is tall, but I'm not sure he ever gets further into the kitchen than the fridge.). This is a female household. I can look into my cabinets and actually see my stuff. I can reach things on the bottom _two_ shelves. I'm not worried about resale. I plan to stay forever. But my bet is that no one would notice. No one who had been over has any clue.

I bucked all the advice and went with my stainless steel backsplash instead of something lighter.

Microwave on the counter, where my kids can reach it and it can be easily and cheaply replaced if it does.

This is a thread that makes many of us feel so much better about our decisions that go against "the perfect kitchen for all". I have never posted on this particular forum during my kitchen planning about my design that might not be the perfect, but for me what I feel is the best for me.
I have lived with this kitchen long enough to know what doesn't work for me and what I needed to change to make it better.
With that said I am deeply grateful to be able to come to this forum and hear the good and bad, the right and wrong and have learned more from this forum then I ever could any where.
Before this forum I would never had given any thought to soapstone as never dreamed it could be affordable. I would have been stuck again with 12" deep upper cabinets. UCL wouldn't be doing and on and on. Because of this forum full of incredible knowledge I know that my kitchen will be the best it can be. Perfect no, but so much better. Just waiting for my Barker white slab cabinets to ship as well as my soapstone counters and the dream will be realized knowing yes I did it my way, maybe not the right way, but for sure the only way.
On this day of Thanksgiving I am also saying "Thank You" to all for giving me the knowledge and courage to do this.

HomeChef59 beat me to it. There aren't "rules" but there are kitchen design guidelines. Their purpose is to provide a place to start when remodeling a kitchen. Learn from the collected wisdom of pros and then deviate from them as budget, space constraints or preferences dictate. Personally, I'd rather know the potential downsides of not following a guideline ahead of time than experience a head-smacking-idiot-me moment once the kitchen is finished. =)

(btw, a few of you wrote that you broke the "rules" because you didn't put an island in your narrow-ish kitchen. Hate to burst your rebel bubble =) but you actually followed the guidelines for kitchen space planning.)

Not following trends is a different matter all together. Unless you're planning to sell in a few years, follow your heart. Always.

We're going against trend by eliminating the fairly shallow seating overhang at our island and replacing it with storage. We only have 43" between island and kitchen table; island seating would make this main aisle much too crowded for us (and, as chance would have it, by NKBA guidelines). And in the 20+ yrs in this house, we've *never* had stools at the island so we won't miss them one bit.

Debbie 1031, thanks for asking about the mirrored cabinets but no reveal yet. My countertop and plumbing went in this last week just in time for Thanksgiving so no chance yet. If you were one of the ones who shared their pictures with me I appreciate it!

What is the point of these threads? We get one every couple of years. And no one can ever explain them to me.

Is it to feel all daring and naughty and rebellious, like a four-year-old girl who pulls her skirts up at her parent's dinner party? Attention-getting, perhaps. Not terribly mature, though.

Most of these "rules" aren't even rules.

There's no rule that says you have to have an island, or paint your cabinets a certain color. Or that you can never put a sink or a range in the corner. Sorry. You're not a revolutionary. Turn in that Che Guevara t-shirt right now.

Of course every kitchen is a compromise. Duh. For 10 years I cooked in a kitchen that was all of 5 feet in length. You think I could open the oven and the dishwasher at the same time? Ha. I couldn't open the oven and stand in the kitchen at the same time. But it was a condo, and there were no alternatives remotely possible.

What the rules do is tell you what your trade-offs are, when you do have to compromise.

No landing place for your fridge? You'll be juggling cold lemons on your nipples at every mealtime. If you can deal with that, then headlights ahoy. Don't want a prep sink, even though your main sink is 20 paces past your stove from the fridge? Ok. You'll be doing more backtracking than a Bill Cosby sponsor. And if you have a big family, maybe a little body slamming to boot.

You can choose to accept those trade-offs. Or not. But you don't get to say that those trade-offs do not exist. At least, not if you want to be accepted as a rational adult. You make your choices. And you own them.

I'm glad that linda_ut offered a thank-you message. Because frankly, this thread is starting to sound like a different two-word message to the professionals who participate in this forum. Though that message also ends in "-you."

"No landing place for your fridge? You'll be juggling cold lemons on your nipples at every mealtime. If you can deal with that, then headlights ahoy. Don't want a prep sink, even though your main sink is 20 paces past your stove from the fridge? Ok. You'll be doing more backtracking than a Bill Cosby sponsor. And if you have a big family, maybe a little body slamming to boot."

LOL, Marcolo! That paragraph had me roaring with laughter! Hubby had to come see what all the commotion was about.

I also want to say thank you to linda_ut for her gracious acknowledgement of the time and wisdom shared so generously by many posters on this forum. I've learned so much from them over the years so I want to add my thanks as well.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Fri, Nov 28, 14 at 18:01

Marcolo I guess I don't understand why the dander is up. There were no insults here. I see a thread like this akin to something on a beauty forum where people post pictures of their faces without makeup, their butts without spanx, or tell dirty secrets about the color and consistency of their real hair. We all spend so much time and effort shooting for perfection that sometimes it's nice to see (read) that there are other people out there whose project didn't end up perfectly perfect and we don't actually have a kitchen deserving of a write up in Architectural Digest.

I could (and sometime do) spend hours on GW pouring over reveal pictures of kitchens and houses that are unattainable for me - perhaps kitchens you've designed. Every time I log on I also see gushing thanks to the experts who so readily share their knowledge with the masses - I think most will agree there is no lack of gratitude on this forum. Forgive our exasperation on the occasional thread.

I didn't intend my post here as disrespect to the advice of pros, and I'll bet many or most others didn't either. I am eternally grateful to the pros and those I've presumed to be pros here (like @lisa_a - are you not a pro? you and another poster, @rosie, totally made my kitchen layout viable!)

Every single good thing about my very modest post-reno kitchen is thanks to GW expertise. After @lisa_a and @rosie helped me figure out the layout, I asked questions here about contractor troubles, faucets, sinks, backsplashes, dishwashers and a thousand other things. Most of all, when I first came here a few years ago, under a different user name, hoping to redo my kitchen w/o dealing with its fatal flaws, @marcolo told me not to bother unless I was ready to spend the money to do some structural work. Best advice I ever got, at least as far as kitchens go.

But I also found you have to trust your gut a certain amount of the time. Because few of us have an unlimited budget or a perfect house. Because every family or homeowner lives differently and wants different things from their kitchen. So I look at these threads as a kind of confidence booster to others that it's okay to do what works for you even if it isn't precisely what you're supposed to do. There's a lot of anxiety wrapped up in making decisions that involve a lot of money and a certain degree of permanence, and threads like these can be helpful in overcoming that.

I know that for me, my perfectionism can really get in the way of a kitchen remodeling project. Once I found this forum, I wanted to try to have everything align *perfectly.* For a long time, I was trying to make our kitchen, a remodel of a very old (1840's) house, fit to meet all 31 of the NKBA standards (linked below.) While those standards are extremely helpful, as are the hours and hours of posts that I've read that have been written by dedicated and caring GW contributors, I couldn't take the square peg of our kitchen and fit it into a round hole. At least, not without unlimited time and resources.

I think that is very much what this thread is about. How do you decide where to make concessions? What is ok to give up, and what is important to focus on? What needs to be retained to have a well functioning kitchen? Obviously not everyone will choose the same way, but it can be helpful to hear the reasoning behind people's choices. It can be helpful to hear that it is ok to let a few things go, and life will indeed go on.

We tend to obsess about a lot of details in the kitchen forum (it's a wonderful place to be able to do this!), but sometimes it's so easy to over-obsess that those details can be blown out of proportion. It's helpful to be able to sift through what's most important for kitchen functioning as well as what is less relevant in certain cases.

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA's 31 design rules, illustrated

This post was edited by laughable on Fri, Nov 28, 14 at 22:06

I agree with others that the point of these posts is not to tell the pros to toss off. But I've seen folks with minimal budgets get a lot of negative responses lately.

Gardenweb was really helpful for me when we went through our remodel. But I recall getting responses from people that would have made significant impacts on our budget. It's easy to jump on that bandwagon, but how many of us can say we could afford all the changes we suggest for others? Not me, and we sit well within a comfortable lifestyle.

There is plenty of information for folks with large budgets. There is less information for folks with limitations - financial, structural or otherwise. These posts just make us all a little more real.

I'm so glad I was able to help you with your kitchen plans, smalloldhouse. And thanks for the flattery but nope, I'm merely a layperson with good spatial skills. I can pack a car or moving van like nobody's business, lol. (the fam has learned that they are better off just bringing me the boxes to pack because if they try to pack the car or moving van, I'm sure to redo it to fit more in). It also helps that I've been geeking out over kitchen design advice for all the years I've been planning my remodel. =)

There are a few posters here who can be blunt with their advice. That can be a good thing even though it can seem harsh. Try not to take it personally (admittedly sometimes easier said than done). Take what's useful and workable and let the rest go.

Swentastic, I don't know how long you've been hanging out here but if it's a relatively short time, you've likely missed the (thankfully) rare times when we've had posters who have not only failed to acknowledge the time and wisdom offered by fellow GWers but who have posted rude remarks in response to help offered. I've been the recipient of such remarks more than once. I don't take it personally but it is frustrating to feel that I've wasted my time and energy.

I'm going to give a shameless plug for an e-book written by my friend Kelly Morisseau, a CMKBD in the Bay Area. I haven't read this one yet but I have read her previous book, Kelly's Kitchen Sync and I would bet that her 2nd book will also be filled with great kitchen remodeling advice mixed with a healthy dose of humor (gotta love a kitchen design book that can make you giggle).

Here is a link that might be useful: Kelly's Kitchen Savvy

Here's a small example of how threads like this can help someone like me (planning a kitchen redo on a smallish budget.) Joygreenwald above mentioned that she chose to install her cabinets 15" above the counters, for her convenience.

This caught my eye, because we're planning to keep our existing quirky cabinets, and bless their wonky souls, they're 15.5-16" above the counters. I've been sad about this, because I figured it meant no way, no how could I install any kind of under cabinet lighting. And, that no matter how hard I work to restore the cabinets, I thought, they'll be substandard, not right, wrong, in that regard.

So, along comes someone who posts that they actually chose a similar height, for their lovely new cabinets. "Hey!" I'm thinking, "maybe I can have UCL, if I want it, why was I being so negative?"

Now, I fully understand very few folks here would recommend this height, for everyone, and I understand why. Some appliances won't fit under my cabinets, for example. That's a pain, at times.

But for me, threads like this are like a voice saying, "it'll be okay" on specific points. Not willy-nilly wild abandon, not the "anything you want to do will be OK as long as you listen to your heart" thing. Just specific examples where folks have chosen a different path, for the reasons they explain.

I appreciate that reassuring voice, exactly because I do pay attention to the designers here, who are clearly incredibly generous with their time and talents. If I'm gonna stray off the path they recommend, it won't be without some careful thinking beforehand. I do understand there are trade-offs. It just helps me to worry a bit less, and to feel a bit more confident, about finding my own way through the trade-offs, when others share their journeys through the same ocean of decisions.

(I'm so happy you're back posting here again, Marcolo. It really wasn't the same without you.)

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How high above the base cabinets & counter should the upper cabinets be mounted?

Posted: June 20, 2012

The industry standard for the space between the bottom of wall cabinets and the counter beneath is 15” to 18”. This allows work space on the counter and access to the first two shelves of typical wall cabinets. This information can be found in two NKBA Publications that are part of the NKBA Professional Resource Library. Charts illustrating cabinet heights are found in Chapter 1 of Kitchen & Bath Products. Access heights are discussed in more detail in Kitchen Planning.

If you have uppers at 15" off your counters, be aware their tops won't line up with standard tall cabinets, like pantry cabinets. If custom you're ok.

See? Not a rule.

But I'm not here to defend the NKBA.

Cool! Frankly, I'd rather not break the rules. They exist for a reason. I'm happy to know my cabinet height gets the nod, even though that knowledge doesn't change anything.

What I found funny was that my GC isn't much taller than I am. ( He can't be more than 5'3".). No other man I've talked to was as on board with laying everything out to accommodate a short woman.

I think this type of thread is just a helpful reminder. The rest of the threads are all about what you should do and what would be ideal and lovely and maybe even people getting frustrated with the original posters when they mention why ideal suggestions won't work for their homes or their budgets. It is easy to start thinking that perfect is normal and expected, even if empirically you know that can't be true.

I had to compromise a lot in my space, and I have second-guessed those compromises even more. (And I know that with my gut-job and adequate budget, I am sure I had to compromise way less than most.) It's just nice to hear a strong reminder like this thread that everybody else is in the same boat with me and that, as much as we all agonize about these compromises, for the most part it's all been fine in the end for all of us.

I just feel camaraderie with all these other people who also are trying to create awesome kitchens and ran into problems. I don't feel like I'm telling The Man to go f*** himself, nor have I ever wanted to. (It'd be weird to argue with the basic facts of how much room humans take up and use anyway. Those aren't opinions.) I just feel better and less stressed about the decisions I've made.

On a side note, I did not know you couldn't swear here. Gardenweb made me censor that one. For the record, I can't think of a more appropriate time to swear than during a kitchen remodel.

Thank you Marcolo. I feel positively...normal. :-)

Next to Marcolo, we're all normal. (sorry, Marcolo, but you are the one who "poured milk on my cereal!")

btw, I'd read that 15"-18" guideline somewhere but couldn't remember where so thanks for posting the info here.

"The rest of the threads are all about what you should do and what would be ideal and lovely and maybe even people getting frustrated with the original posters when they mention why ideal suggestions won't work for their homes or their budgets. It is easy to start thinking that perfect is normal and expected, even if empirically you know that can't be true."
This is true.

"I just feel camaraderie with all these other people who also are trying to create awesome kitchens and ran into problems."
this is also true.

I sure hope no one (I didn't sense anything like that here) is posting with the intention of telling our wise helpers to bug off... where would we be without them?

I learned so much my first few months on here. that was yrs ago. I think today I could put together a pretty nice kitchen - with the right amount of space and budget. I know that I'd still be posting on here for HELP tho.

Every kitchen being remodeled is different and those with the kitchen are different with different needs. The kitchen I'd do today would be very much what it is now - much different than what I would have wanted decades ago.

1. Gas range in island.
2. Ripped out granite, put in tile.
3. Kept 1920's cabinets.

I love all these features and wouldn't change a thing.
Diane

I got so many great ideas and critiques of my layouts in the few posts I added. I would have posted more before and while we were renovating, but my mother had been very ill and I had to put most of my attention on her and not the internet. I am very thankful for the suggestions that I got on this board.

That being said:

1. Main sink in island
2. Prep sink on end of a counter run (meaning no prep space to the left of it)
3. The cabinet over our range hood juts out a few inches passed the top of the hood to accommodate a flat screen TV and the soft-close door mechanism
4. Our island is 54" wide

I am very happy with all of these choices :)

One example of a "rule" that I broke--my galley kitchen is really narrow. My aisle is about 33", maybe even a little less. But it works fine for me.

One example of a "rule" that I obeyed and wished I hadn't--I allowed for a 15" countertop overhang on the one side where I thought my 6'4" DH would most likely sit (was going originally to put a TV in the kitchen and that side would give him the best view--decided against it ultimately). The other sides are 12". DH sits on the side where the overhang is 12" which is just fine. By following the "rule", I lost 3" of the cabinet under the overhang which I sort of wish I had.

The trouble with "rules" in general is that they tend to be a little "one size fits all." They are useful to know, and I broke the ones I broke, knowingly, and after a lot of consideration.

I have never understood the 15" seating overhang guideline, but it must be made for long-legged people who really like to belly up to the counter. That's not us, we measured what we have and found 12" to be plenty, even though we are not short.

Some people really want to unload the dishwasher without moving their feet, so dish storage near the DW is important. We are used to a more "point of use" dish storage system, so the coffee stuff is in one place, the dinner dishes another, the breakfast dishes another (not that any are very far away.) I unload the dishwasher maybe 3 times a week, so it just isn't that big of a deal. Maybe it is if you do it twice a day, though!

Our fridge is at the end of our U-shaped kitchen. With a large family or even a few kids + friends running in and out, that could be a disaster. In a retirement home for 2, it's fine. (Obstacles to easy access to the fridge for snacks are probably a good thing at this point!) Plus I don't want to see the fridge from the LR, pretty as it is. And we could have had an island instead of a peninsula, but we didn't really want it THAT open to the living area.

And you can't get into the dishwasher and the freezer drawers at the same time, but that seemed to be a conflict we could live with.

I am a person who has to know the details of the "why" before I will follow a rule. Then I see if I think it fits before I decide whether to follow it.

The list of advice I took to heart is a much longer list, though! Much longer.

I "broke" the rules 20+ years ago:
Single bowl white sink (instead of SS double bowl)
Hardwood floor (instead of tile)
No 4" backsplash on counters
We raised the counter height (also in the bathrooms)
No bulkhead. However, didn't put my foot down in bathrooms.
White cabinets

Point is: Rules change :)

I don't think anybody here has been saying that advice and critiques by the folks here on GW, whether experts, talented amateurs or everyday amateurs, isn't helpful because it sure is. I think the key, as a few others have stated, is to know and understand the rules and things to watch out for and then, if you have to break them due to the footprint you have to work in or your budget, that you do so consciously understanding the impact that will have on functionality. Then you can determine if that is something you can live with or not and, if not, work to see if the problem can be fixed. There's a big difference between that vs. being unpleasantly surprised by something that doesn't work well once your kitchen is completed.

Fun to see this thread pop back up. I read it again after having lived with our kitchen for a year. The only regret we have is that we wish one of the cabinets had been 3 inches wider (would have narrowed the entry to the kitchen by that much, but it probably would have been fine. I'm just relieved to know that's the only thing I'd change.

Also the thread got a little mixed up between comments on rules/guidelines (aisle widths, seating overhangs) and trends (backsplash height and countertop materials), but both are interesting topics!

I put a cooktop (induction) on the island with a downdraft. But the island is like a quarter of a pie shape so seating is plenty far away. We love it. Sometimes you have sapce limitations and have to make the choices that are right for you and your family!

So many rules... to break. And all broken in my thumb print sized kitchen. 1 Fridge nowhere near dining room or sink. 2 Desperately needed IKEA rolling cart island. A barrier island if ever there were. 3 etc. Bottlenecking at fridge, crossing cook's path six ways to Sunday, dishwashers encroaching, actually owning, walkway. Recycling in 3 different cupboards. TWO Drawers. :( Need I go on. Still all appliances work for the first time in years and I have 2, I repeat, 2 dishwashers and a great expanse of counter for the small appliances ,that we use every day, to sit out on. Plus 3 prep areas when needed. Crowded yes, but believe it or not much better and newer than it was. We are 3 cooks with 3 different dietary needs so we fit and cook all together. Cozy, yes.

My pantry is in the guest bedroom. That doesn't break any rules, does it? <g> I don't have a large kitchen but it's more than adequate and had adequate storage for 20 years. Then our daughter moved out. We made her room into a guest room...with an empty closet. I asked my husband to turn it into a pantry. 3ft deep, 5ft wide with 6 shelves that go along the back wall and one side. Everything I need on a regular basis and semi regular basis fits in the kitchen. Overflow and seldom used small appliances, etc are in the pantry. Don't know how I lived 20 years without it! The kitchen follows the Ice-water-stone-fire rule I just read about.

I don't know about 'breaking rules', but our kitchen is different in some ways. We opted for laminate counters because we actually prefer it, and it saved a ton of money. We also used top-mount SS sinks, bought off ebay for a song. Common in many houses, sure, but not in a new, 100% custom kitchen. I don't care for super Susans, or any other kind, so one of the three inside corners (gasp!) is diagonal with a set of drawers. Another corner, also diagonal, is a huge maple prep surface with NO cabinet under it, so you can SIT DOWN while doing prep work. The third corner was utilized by having a roll-out bin on the back side for storage.

We have no upper cabinets at all. The 'pantry' is going to be a built-in in the adjacent dining room, and this will also house the microwave. Our appliances are all one-step-above-the-cheapest, and they work just fine. We have a lot of windows; a big triple and two other casements and no window treatments. We have no disposal; everything either goes into the stock pot or the compost heap.