Debra

What are his credentials? Is he a licensed contractor? what type of license does he hold? Is he doing electric? Plumbing? as well as installing cabs? what is the rest of the scope of work & is he credentialed to do so

A plumber & electrician would command top $$ a qualified GC another amt, A carpenter who works under GC's license another amt. So, it all depends - Certainly Boston rates are high,
Also, does this individual carry liability & Workers compensation insurance - has a permit been pulled for the work being performed?

Keep in mind he is also providing free cabinets, which adds value to his work.
Is he a professional contractor in his day job? Does the 80 hours figure seem high for what he is going to do?
I would draw up an agreement and pay along the way at arranged landmarks of progress.
Just because it is the tenant's fiance does not mean he won't be good.
When you factor in the cabs and what you would have paid for those, then how much per hour is it really costing you?

Why pay by the hour? Who is going to monitor the number of hours he's worked? I would suggest that he give you a firm bid on the specified work that you need done, otherwise you may as well give him a signed blank check.

Absolutely DO NOT pay by the hour.

Get a bid for the job, make sure you stipulate your expectations of the job in writing or verbally if you guys are cool like that. I would say get other bids but then it will be tough to compare cos I'm guessing this guy is giving you cabinets as part of the job.

I hope you've seen cabinets you're getting

Don't you, watch Peoples Court, Lol the judge, tells every one that comes in her, court room, never to pay a contractor, by the hour. My husband, is a GC, and gets paid very well because of the excellent work he, does. But he, never writes up a contract by the hour. So if you, think the job will get done right the first time it is worth it to have peace of mine.

$10 per hour is too much for an unlicensed contractor to work on your own dwelling, much less a higher liability potential like a rental. Even if he's supplying all of the materials and will do the highest quality work, the potential costs of associated with an unlicensed individual are much much too great a risk to you the owner.

Rental property should only be worked on by licensed individuals and with full permits. This protects YOU!

I'm also confused about the hourly thing. Is the 80 hours firm or estimated? And what is he doing that will take 80 hours? I think of 80 hours as being equal to two normal work weeks, 8/hours a day, 5 days a week. So is what he is doing equivalent to working "full time" for two weeks? What if he works less than 80 hours? Will you even know that he did? And will he charge you accordingly? What if it goes over 80 hours? Is it in the agreement that it can stretch to 100 hours or more? Or is the agreement for 80 hours at $60 per hour and you owe the total amount whether he takes less time or more time?

80 hours at $60 per hour is $4800. Is the work he is doing worth $4800, assuming that 80 hours is exactly how long he will be working? Have you gotten other estimates?

I'm also wondering about the free cabs. Why are they free? Are you sure he has a right to remove them from the other job?

I don't know if $60/hour is a fair price or not, and neither will you unless you can compare it to other estimates. I do know that a lot of this sounds iffy enough that I'd be very hesitant to agree to it based on the information you have provided.

I wouldn't get involved with hiring someone that is associated with my tenant. Keep your other business transactions separate from your tenants. Is your tenant moving out soon when she marries the contractor or is he moving in when they get married and then he will become a tenant? I think it's asking for trouble to hire him. However, if you still want to hire him, I agree with the other posters, do not pay by the hour, it is too open-ended, make sure you see the cabinets first and make sure he is licensed. I can't really answer your question about whether $60 is too high because I usually pay an agreed upon sum for a specified amount of work. I do think that $4800 sounds high to install cabinets in a rental unit. How many cabinets does he have to install and is he doing any other work?

Agree, agree, agree: DO NOT pay by the hour! Get a FIRM PRICE to do the WHOLE JOB to your satisfaction! And then draw up a contract to hold him to it!

I speak from experience. We hired our friend's husband who gave us an "estimate" of how many hours our job would take, and we foolishly, foolishly, foolishly agreed to pay him by the hour based on that hourly estimate. And now, of course everything is taking 2 - 3 times as long as he estimated but it's not his fault, of course, because it was only an ESTIMATE. Taking 2 - 3 times as long results in paying 2 - 3 times more than we budgeted for. Let me tell you: it sucks! Don't make our mistake!

I agree the hourly fee thing might come back to bite you. He could be a really slow worker & 80 hours becomes 100... If you agree to pay him $4800, then it only takes him 60 hours- do you then only pay him for the 60 ? Plus 80 hours seems like a long time to me. I'm sure your rental kitchen isn't huge & the cabinets coming out & going in aren't going to be real intricate. Like someone else said- that's like 2 full weeks of work. If my old installers took that long on a remodel they'd be out of business. 1 day (8 hrs)-maybe to remove old cabinets and a couple of days (16-24 hrs) to put in new. Most diy-ers people do this over a weekend.
Get bids, see that he's licensed, & agree on a set price (keep in mind the free cabinets too)
Good Luck

Is $60 too much? How long is a piece of string?

I can tell you that we paid our contractor about $60CDN/hr (he also had a helper whom he paid out of this amount so that was for 2 men) BUT we had a very unique situation compared to the average home owner.

First, we wanted to semi-DIY so we were not sure how much time we were going to need from him. DH owns his own business so he was able to make himself available with a bit of careful scheduling and that helped our end cost but we weren't sure how much time he was going to have. We didn't want to commit his time to our own renovation since he could make more in a day than we would pay the contractor. If he had been busier with his business it would have cost us more than a fixed rate but that was a risk we were willing to take.

Second - and far more importantly - we did not let anyone into our home that DH did not know personally. In his business DH spends time in other peoples houses during their renovations so he knows how some workmen behave when the homeowner or GC are not around. I could not have people in my house without believing I could trust them to do their job and not eat my food or look through my closet when I wasn't home.

So my question to you is: Do you really trust this person?

I suspect the answer is no(why else would you post here knowing you are going to be told not to hire the guy?) And if that is the case does it really matter how much he wants to charge you? It may be worth it to pass on the "free" cabinets and hire someone else, even if it does end up costing more money. It may be a rental property but it is still equity that is worth protecting as well as potential liability worth avoiding.

debra,

On the Cape and on the islands - Some owners of contracting companies often bill themselves out at $60-$65 per hour and the workers at $50. That being said one would get a firm bid based on these man hours and as the others have said - get a contract with a begining date and and ending date and a firm price. Hourly jobs have a way of snow balling as in Pugrolls case. In this current economy I have seen somewhat lower hourly wages - it depends upon how busy the contractor is at the moment. Also in the 128- 495 area the prices are lower than on the Cape and the closer to Boston it can be higher.

Now the issue about the contractor being a friend of a tenant...that concerns me. Can you get references, etc. and be sure he is bonded, licensed and has experience in your town - especially as it is a rental property. He would have to know the building code in your area as each town seems to have a slightly different interpretation of same...!As one other poster mentioned - being a rental
it sets you up for more liabliity.

All that being said...good luck on your project!

Most of our work was done by friends who are in the building business (licensed.) They do great work and we were their primary customers at the time--no odd hours when contractor supply places aren't open and no inefficient starting and stopping with a couple of hours put in here and there. Wages are a lot different where I live (Franklin County, MA) than Boston but we paid the pair $35/hour each 5 years ago. Our situation was similar to lululemon's--dh runs his own business from our home. Dh was basically a third person on the team, DIYing as much as possible. Hourly pay seemed to make the most sense because of the help dh gave and because it enabled us to be flexible with our plans without worrying about change orders.

I would worry about work efficiency. You should definitely get a discount for the odd hours (when it's more difficult to run out and pick up something the big box stores don't carry) and the start and stop nature of squeezing work in after hours.

If this is the dwelling his fiance rents, how would you be sure he wouldn't be adding hours to take care of things they want done but you haven't specified? If his fiance is living there, I would worry that he would bill for hours where he worked some and socialized a lot.

Hi guys,

I appreciate all of your various inputs and I thought I would write out a few more details to enlighten you on what the scope of the work would be in the kitchen. I didn't mention a few of the details earlier because I was afraid you guys would say run not walk away from this guy!

More facts: He is already living in the property with his fiance. I believe he is licensed and insured, but I will check this definately! I will get a copy of his license and certificate of insurance. The liability issue definately scares me.

There is a drop ceiling that he will remove and the kitchen will be sheet rocked, plastered up to a cathedral ceiling. Insulation will be installed as well.

He is removing a radiator and installing a kickplate for heat to come out from under one of the cabinets. The heat is steam-radiators, so I'm not sure how the heat will come out from under the cabs, I'll need to question this.

New box for a ceiling fan and install he quotes at $1,150.
He is also putting in new laminate countertops, a new SS sink and faucet with an exhaust hood. He is putting in a R&R exhaust fan, new sink pendant light, replace existing recepticles with tamper resistant (req'd for inspection).

He says the new sink will have new shutoff and a new basket strainer. Relocate the gas stove.

Remove drain drum trap in Basement and replace with under sink P-trap (req'd for inspection) Install sink vent through roof (req'd for inspection).

Vinyl tile flooring
PFJ 4-1/4" baseboard
PFJ coloonial door and window casing
40 sq ft R13 insulation
50 sq ft R25 insulation

15 yard dumpster

all permits and licensing fees

The whole shebang comes to $11,352.00 His labor cost is $4800. (I don't know if he will have others doing plumbing etc, but these things you have instructed me to find out!)

They are getting married in April and the kitchen is long overdue for a makeover.

The cabs are stored in the garage and they are maple. Very nice looking and full wood, not mdf or particle board.
He had another job where the family just wanted these out because they didn't like the cab doors, but they had the whole cabs removed. The maple cabs have some drawers and are l00% nicer than what is there now! The kitchen in the rental is a large one -- it is an EIK but with an awkward shape.

I am scared to spend more than $10K on anything, but it sounds like he would do a good job, but after reading all of the horror stories on Gweb, I'm rightfully nervous. I did get three references but have not contacted them yet. I hope these additional facts have cleared up a few things. or maybe you'll tell me, like one poster did that I should keep the construction and the rental business separate. And maybe I should.

I think I should get a couple more estimates, just like you guys suggested and that should help me see if I'm getting a decent deal. So far, I would be willing to pay him $3K for this work, but it would have to be a set amount with a beginning and an end date.

Because he is living in the same place that he will be working, I'm assuming (yeah, I know what assume means) that he will do a good job since he lives there! I know that sh!t happens and people break up so that might leave me up the proverbial creek.

Any more suggestions or comments please?

Make sure he, is license.
Get his license # and check it out.
That he, is bonded.

We, know a lady, that hired a un license, contractor, and he fell off a ladder, installing a ceiling fan. He, turned around and sued her. She about lost her, home, and a lot more. Just be to careful. Do not assume anything. Good Luck!

I am wondering, did they approach you to do the work and have the kitchen redone or did you ask him for a quote? Maybe I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like they want their kitchen redone and want you to foot the bill. Also, it does sound like a lot of money to put into a rental unit that is already rented. Usually the landlord is only responsible to maintain certain things, like making sure plumbing is working properly, roof not leaking, etc. Do you have a legal obligation to provide them with a new kitchen? Also, who is paying for materials and are you choosing the materials or is the tenant? Materials can become very costly depending on what is chosen. I do think that $1150 is a lot for a new ceiling fan and electrical box to be installed. It sounds about $900-$1000 too high.

I think your gut is telling you that maybe you shouldn't hire him because you keep mentioning that we are going to tell you the same. Maybe you should trust your gut. If he is now living there, he is in effect, a tenant. How will you handle the situation if you don't like his work or if a mistake is made or if something needs to be changed? What if he takes advantage of the situation or withholds rent? There have been many reasons stated not to hire him, especially at an hourly rate, is there a good enough reason to hire him that would override the fact that he is a tenant?

kitchenkrazed09 makes really good points - if the place is already rented and liveable why pay him to update it? If he wants to put in the new cabinets and you like them, let him put them in on his own dime (and leave them for you). Most landlords don't renovate while a tenant is in place - they fix and maintain things. They renovate between tenants to make the place more desirable. I think you need to evaluate the whole situation not just his hourly rate.

You already seem to sense that this is not a wise idea, and I'll add to the confirmations/responses you've already had here that your instincts are worth listening to! May I suggest that you also review the Mass. and Boston area landlord-tenant laws before you do anything further.

Is he actually named on the lease (or just his fiance)? Does he have a legal right to live there? If not, are you now accepting him as a tenant by not objecting? What does the lease actually say about additional tenants. Does the area allow for home-businesses (because that's what he would become -- as a contractor working for pay on his own dwelling.)

After having many rental properties over the years, I want to warn you that I smell a rat here. This may be a way to get you hooked into a vague contract with him, which would almost immediately give him a right to file a lien on some pretext (almost impossible to defend against an hourly claim). Then the work would stop while you fought it out. You couldn't evict him without a long and costly process, especially if he claimed it was a bad faith eviction related to his lien. And you almost certainly could not find any other contractor willing to come in behind him, WHILE he was still residing in the property. I'm just afraid that you're heading into a huge snakepit, one that is so simply avoided by stepping away now, unless you plan to deed this unit over to them as a wedding present (maybe their plan to get you legally cornered and then "settle").

Well, if it were me, I'd never hire him, or any other tenant, at any price. The risks are enormous and expensive to fix. Please be very, very careful here.

Another option, offer to sell them the house, as is, and then he can remodel it to his heart's content!

Since you are in Mass, check out the attorney general's website for information on minimum contract requirements. You can check for his license online as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Check this out

Here's the phrase that says it all:
I'd never hire him, or any other tenant, at any price.

The next one that does it for me (if that's not enough):
New box for a ceiling fan and install he quotes at $1,150.
WHAT? 1150 to install a ceiling fan? Wow. Nice work if you can get it.

I completely agree that remodeling a rental house while the house is already occupied doesn't make sense unless the house is in such bad shape that it isn't usable as is. It's been said above but I'll repeat it for emphasis. It's definitely the landlord's responsibility to keep the house livable and repair things which are not working. But remodeling a kitchen to the tune of $11K (PLUS additional unforseen expenses which are almost inevitable given the circumstances) is just, well, I hate to say it this way, but, foolhardy.

it almost sounds like they want their kitchen redone and want you to foot the bill.

The only reason I can think of that you'd want to do this remodel is either because you have a relationship with the tennants and are doing this as gift (example, tennant is your niece and you want her to have a nice place to live in as she rents from you) or because you are fixing the house up to sell as soon as the current tennant's lease is up.

Now, if the house were empty and you were putting money into it to get it fixed up to make it attractive to potential renters that would also be a reason to do this remodel.

You don't have to answer this, but how many months of rent will this actually be costing you? For something that just doesn't seem necessary, regardless of whether the tennant does it or someone else.

I am wondering, did they approach you to do the work and have the kitchen redone or did you ask him for a quote?
I'm curious too. How did this idea come about in the first place?

I was afraid you guys would say run not walk away from this guy!
Yup.

Ok, how this came about.... This tenant has been living there for almost ten years. The kitchen is very old and the laminate is actually peeling off the countertop in a few places. It has needed a kitchen redo/update for a long time. The tenant was supposed to move out this year after her son went off to college, but she is now staying one more year.

So, she met this guy and after a year and half he moved in. He has done some things around the house and they were much appreciated. We had a flood in the basement (everyone in this neighborhood did) and he was able to take care of it without any effort on my part. I guess I feel a little obligated to him. A little, not a lot! Over the years I have replaced all the windows in the house, the roof and the boiler and vinyl-sided it. Not much left to replace. LOL The kitchen was the last frontier so to speak.

My tenant told me that he was working on a job where they were tossing out their old cabs and he was in a position to take them off their hands. She was excited that we could put in these free new cabs and add new countertops and have a great looking kitchen for their upcoming wedding in April.

I guess I'm getting in over my head here, but I will have to replace the kitchen in the near future if I want to rent it after they leave. I thought if I could renovate while tenants are in there, that's actually a bonus for me! They are willing to live with a mess and I still collect rent... I haven't talked to him about his proposal yet, because I was trying to get input on the whole situation from Ones With Experience. You guys! I think I will talk to him, check refs, look for a registration and other things and maybe get some more quotes and come back to the board to see what you guys think of that!

Having Gwebbers to "talk to" helps consumers like myself make rational decisions and think things through. Thanks for being there and giving your advice and expertise.

Don't do it, IMHO. You are getting good advice here. If your GW buddies don't convince you, at least spend a hundred or two to meet with your lawyer, and let them tell you the risks you'd be walking into.

Ok I see where debra_boston is coming from. Its a long-term tenant, the kitchen has been bad for a while. if she's leaving in a year a new kitchen will demand a higher rent and there's the free cabs in the garage and the guy has helped out before.

I understand all that but on the other side of the ledger there's $11K. If you're getting a killer deal on the job, as a landlord myself I might say go for it but it doesn't appear to us observing from the internet that you are getting a killer deal.

Also note that if the estimate is $11K have $15K ready.

OK, so here's what I think I'd do. You feel some obligation toward him because he's done some things around the house. Also he got these cabs for you for free. Great. Give them a discount on their rent for a couple of months or even one month's free rent if you feel that's waranted.

If she's been living there for 10 years, I wonder (and you don't have to answer these questions to us, just food for thought): how many times have you raised her rent? How much is she paying now, compared to 10 years ago? How much rent could you ask of a new tennant taking into consideration current rental prices in today's market? The reason I ask these questions is because IME as a renter, the rent I was paying after years of living somewhere was inevitably lower than current market.

The kitchen is in bad condition and you are going to have to fix it up anyway and here is a loyal tennant who is willing to have the work done while she is living there. All this adds up and makes sense.

So... go about it the right way. Get professional independent contractors in there to give you estimates. Get material prices yourself and find out what is a REASONABLE price to do the work. In point of fact, $11K might be reasonable.

But even if that is the case I still agree that the tennant should not be doing the work. It might turn out ok but what a huge risk!

To sum it up, here's what I see:
Your tennant wants the kitchen in great shape for her wedding. She's done a lot of legwork regarding materials and her fianchas snagged some free cabs for you and wants to do the work for $4800 + materials which all adds up to >$11K.

So now it's time to do your homework. You need to go shopping and pick the materials that you want, based on the fact that it's a rental. Keep in mind that she picked out materials based on the fact that she lives there AND that she's not paying for them. That's not to say that she picked out the most expensive stuff or that she's trying to rip you off. Just that your perspectives are different and that you need to protect your interests.

If you were going to remodel the kitchen when she moved out, you'd still have to do this research. Don't let her convince you that she's saving you all the work. $11K is a LOT of money! I would not spend that kind of money without doing my own homework.

If she really wants the kitchen redone before her wedding, she's not going to get too caught up in the fact that her fiancé isn't doing the job. They might be disappointed, but business is business and it most likely isn't the first job or last that he doesn't get. If they get upset or angry with the fact that you don't want them to do it, that in itself might say a whole lot!

On the other hand, if you get someone else to do the work, they probably won't let you do it while they're living there. They are under no obligation to let you renovate while they're living there so in that sense they are doing you a favor. This is a very complicated situation.

I'll bet they'll let someone else do the work. They are getting a huge benefit and they want the work done in time for the wedding. Even if they don't let someone else in, it still may be more cost-effective to lose a month's rent while the work is being done by someone else after they move out and have materials installed that you have chosen.

Another thought came to mind. What happens if they call off the engagement and he is in the middle of the work? He is doing the work during off hours, so I imagine it will take a longer amount of time to complete.

As a landlord, I still say don't get involved with hiring a tenant. Lowspark makes an excellent point about the tenant getting the benefit of lower than current market value rent (if that's the case). Don't forget too, that she put wear and tear on the kitchen for 10 years. If they stay only for another year, they will be putting wear and tear on your new kitchen, which will not be as attractive to potential new tenants. It sounds to me like you weren't planning to renovate this kitchen right now. Also, maybe it needs to be freshened up with counters and cabinets, but were you always planning to make a cathedral ceiling? How much of this were you planning to do and how much was their idea? Check your local code, but if you are just replacing counters and cabinets, do you need permits and inspections done?

Boy! This is definately a tricky situation. I've not talked to the tenants in a while and I got an email saying that if I wasn't interested in the free cabinets, then to let them know because they think they have another buyer...

Have you inspected the cabinets being offered? Are they used? You will always be second priority if he's working you around his primary job. I would say to settle on a set amount rather than by the hour but then again, what would be his incentive to even finish let alone finish on time?

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchens for Living

"if I wasn't interested in the free cabinets, then to let them know because they think they have another buyer..."

Just a thought.....those cabinets are not free if you're paying a premium for his services. I would think that he would be giving you a discounted rate on his services since that won't be his priority. By all means, inspect the cabinets!

Are these improvements over improvements for the rental market in your neighborhood? (i.e. cathedral ceilings). Would you have come up with this list of improvements on your own?

Nobody so far has mentioned that he is a fiancé of the current tenant.
Does it take a long time to get hitched?
Where are they planning to live?
Did she sign a long lease?
Did he move in?
Is he there?

--

The cabinets.
They will not fit.
They are not a deal.
All the other costs will outstrip the cost of cabinets.

--

The need.
What is wrong with the current cabinets?
What is so wrong that it needs fixing?

--

His need.
What

I think they're offered you an out and you should take it. Tell them thanks but you're not interested in the cabinets, and while you would be amenable to making improvements to the kitchen, you don't think it's a good idea--for them or for you--for him to do the work. If he's a professional, he'll understand/agree/accept graciously. If he's not, then you sure don't want him doing the job!

I also rent out a house, and understand that if there's work that needs doing, it would be a great arrangement if you could have the work done while you still have a paying tenant. You might explore the possibility of having the kitchen upgraded while they are in residence, and discounting the rent in exchange for the inconvenience. But it is best to keep the tenant's labor out of the equation. And without a doubt, the existence of these cabinets is not what the whole deal should hinge on.

FYI, we have a contractor we've worked with on many many jobs over a 10 year period. He's licensed as a general and supervisory contractor in Massachusetts. After many years of happiness and trust, we switched from job bids to time + material arrangements. He charges $50/hour + a 5-15% mark-up on materials. We're not in the Boston area, so prices would probably be higher where you are.