Are you sure this works with less than an eight foot ceiling? That's only a slightly deeper than average crown directly above the subzero -- and that's if the ceiling is level. I'm not sure if the scale of everything would make the low ceiling more livable or more claustrophobic. That's a question, not a judgment, because I really don't know and am having a hard time imagining it.

I can't open your layout, but as a Long Island Gal (with a love for Montauk, OT), I think your plan is screaming for a lot of windows and a rustic, wide plank, wood floor. Accessories to include some Nantucket baskets. Take a look at photos on these web sites:

http://smithriverkitchens.com/#/our_work/

http://www.kitchendesigns.com/

Hildreth's of Southhampton is not a kitchen store, but look at their furniture styles and accessories for ideas:

http://hildreths.com/furniture.html

Good Luck!

P.S. I didn't know this was considered East coast style.

I'm not sure which walls are exterior walls.
With all the space you have, I think you could have a full depth fridge.
Or more space there, if you shrink the width of the faux-column wall.

there is a lot going on in that plan.
I would consider investing time in learning to use the most complex software to simulate views.
I would consider investing money, paying someone to do this.
I would consider hiring someone online.

Sorry to be debbie downer...While this looks like it would be a great and cool kitchen, I think the functionality of this kitchen is terrible. You say prep is over on the left, but you basically have no contiguous counter space. IN a kitchen of this size, it seems silly to have only 30" of contiguous counterspace in prep area. Your true prep area would probably be on the island or on the range wall but the island lacks a water source and the range wall lacks contiguous counter space. I agree with David. I think you need help on this plan and I think you need clarification of prep and cleanup zones.

I am by no means an expert and maybe you don't cook so all that matters is symmetry and form, but I would hate for you to gut everything and end up with a kitchen that doesn't function. I hope I didn't scare you away. Hopefully buehl or lisa will jump in and provide some good insight and ideas.

Here is a link that might be useful: Here are some layout links

This should help.

Very important question...

What is more important to you, function or form?

Right now, you appear to be making a major sacrifice of function for form (looks).

If form is much more important, then we need to know that because, like others, I see this as a kitchen that would be, to be blunt, a royal pain to work in in its current state.

That is not to say that you can't have what you want with a few changes, but we need to know your preferences.

On the subject of changes, would it be possible to move the TV room door to the left, perhaps on line, or close to, with the vertical prep-area aisle? That would greatly cut down on the fanning out of traffic through your kitchen and allow a very good cooks' area to be developed to its right.

Why are the ceilings so low in the kitchen? Have you looked into whether they can be raised? Looks like your adjoining rooms are higher. While I agree that the layout is not very functional, I am also concerned that you aren't going to get the look that your description brings to my mind with low ceilings and such a long room. I think the scale is off.

Is some or all of this an addition? Are you moving some walls? What else is happening in this first floor reno? What are you trying to accomplish and for how many people (family of four, but this looks like you are trying to support entertaining too --what size groups, what style entertaining, how often, do you use caterers, etc.).

The good news is that you have a lot of space to work with and apparently a healthy budget. Let's see if we can't make them work better for you.

So sorry that my plans were such a mess. But thx for all your constructive cristicism! I do have an architect (see attached pic) but I thought I needed to fill in where the appliances were, etc. Wow, now I'm wondering about everything in my plan! I guess better now than when it's being installed! The attached drawing has the sink on the island - I moved it to the bar (on the left) because I thought I wanted a clear landing area for entertaining, kids doing homework, casual dining etc. The low ceiling (actually is 7'10" :)) is what it is - it supports the second floor so we have no plans trying to change the height there. We are lifting the ceilings in the family and living rooms though so the kitchen looks cozy - that's my story/rationalization and I'm sticking with it :). Regarding your specific comments/advice:

lascatx- I know 7'10" is low but that's what I have - too $$ to raise it as it supports the second floor. I added glass cabs - and I'm considering even open shelves around the range/hood- to lighten it up and seem less claustrophobic. I'm bummed about the height too - but I need help lightening it up so it's not a focal point! Thx!

dilly ny - thx so much for the links! Smith River is a bookmarked fav of mine. I'm also a fan of designer Victoria Hagan who does a ton of Hampton homes - I'm modeling my hood, inset cabs and finshes after her work. Great links-thx!

davidro 1 - I hope this latest pic helps - I totally agree that simulated views are a must to make sure I don't regret my decisions. Proportion is so hard in this kitchen :(.

brianadarne - Great critiques - I really need to understand contiguous space better. I moved the sink to the 9 foot bar (vs. the 8 foot island as the drawing shows) so I'd have more space on either side of me - i.e., 36" on each side of sink now. Are you saying I need to off-set the location of the sink?

bmorepanic - how did u do that?! I can't figure out how to simply paste this drawing (and my inspiration pix) directly into my message/on screen without needing to go to a link. Help!

buehl - yes, I'm obsessed with symmetry - as is DH. But I want form to follow function! What do u see as the biggest obstacle? Flow? Glass cabs? Too many cabs? Too many appliances? I LOVE to cook and entertain. We are big wine lovers (and drinkers) which is why I have a sort of beverage area on the right - where I can store all of our stemware and not have to handwash 12-20 wine glasses at midnight - therefore a second dishwasher. That area is also key because we grill at least 4 times a week and the door leading outside is just steps away from our gas grill - so I wanted a landing area for that. I've really been struggling with the ceiling height (atually 7'10") and how to have some trim at the top of cabs. I have a custom cabinet maker who is amazing with scale/eye pleasing proportions so I have faith we can do it. It's just so frustrating getting there. Thx in advance for all your insights.

rosie - I know! We currently have a pass through there - and pretty much where we have it drawn as a single pocket door - so we have 2 right now! Great thought! Our big issue right now with those 2 openings is traffic and noise. We have sons and when their friends come over we have sometimes 10 boys (ages 9-13) running though the kitchen, playing X-box (loud!) or playing baseball in the yard - all running through my space in the kitchen. I have no space to myself!! The pocket door is meant to cut down on traffic and seal off as much noise as possible. I like quiet - impossible with young boys though :) - so we're trying to figure out a kitchen with controlled chaos :).

Here is a link that might be useful: GW layout2

Thanks again everyone for your ideas. Here are some inspiration pics - they're actually cabs done by my cab maker. Sorry I'm doing the pics one at a time - I need some technical help :)

Here is a link that might be useful: inspiration pic

Does the exterior "dutch door" (upper right corner of kitchen) have to stay?

A sketch of the entire first floor (with walls & doorways) as well as an indication of where the stairs lead (up and/or down) would be helpful.

Only requirement structurally is a pass-through door (ie., pocket door) into TV room

Does that door have to be in the same location as you show on your layout? Or, can it be anywhere along that wall?

Is the "TV Room" used a lot? Do people snack while in that room?

It looks like the kitchen is open to the Library with a seating overhang into it...is this correct? Curious, I always picture a Library as a quiet place for reading (as well as storing books!) My dream is to someday have a quiet Library with a fireplace, a comfy chair, and all my books around me...for some wonderful reading time!

Should have refreshed!

Here's the layout of the first floor she linked to above...

This is the code I started with: {{gwi:1467847}}

I replaced the http://www.XXX/image.jpg piece with the location of your picture.

To get the location of your picture, I right-clicked on your picture, "copied the image location", and pasted it in the "Message" box.

https://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pCraQzRVWwyySy6zEEmVAwt2SqBwMx8Cx5XoMEZ0qhzV0OiESdf1ni2wwaquEi3EgtQ9o0tWY6VA/GW%20layout2.jpg?psid=1

I then made it look like this:

Another pic--

lascatx - we're a family of four :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Inspiration pic #2

I don't think you need to offset the sink as I like the symmetry of that wall, but I think the location of the sink definitely works better in the island. At least then you are able to use it for prep because it will be one pivot turn away from the range.

Are those bar stools on the library side of the cabinets? Why can't those be the homework seats? Then you could actually use that area as your breakfast bar/entertaining bar. I think this might actually be more functional than having the espresso, bev cooler etc right in the middle of your kitchen. Also, are there really two ice makers or is that a mistake?

On another note, does that pocket door have to stay where it is? If you were able to move it, then consider this:

remove the "L" section of cabinet to the right of the pocket door and just have the cabinets run straight to the wall. Then, you would be able to make your island and range centered and the refrigerator could go where the "l" shaped cabinets currently are...

Those are just some of my thoughts. I still really think you should do some more research on the whole prep/cook/cleanup zones as they are all intermingled in the current layout. Another thing to consider are the ceilings. Because they are so low, it may make the kitchen appear taller/not too squished if you go without uppers in the kitchen. I think if you have upper cabinets in the whole kitchen, its going to feel a little cave-like. :(

Here is a link that might be useful: Info on zones by the master:Buehl

Buehl - the pocket door can be anywhere. And the dutch door is not a necessity at all. Thought it was charming. We're calling that space the libarary but it's really kind of a dead space right now - don't know what to designate it as. It's next to the "living room" which is a vaulted ceiling that will have painted tonge and groove boards at the top and a ridge beam across the apex. It's going to be a great room basically. Yes, the TV room is used all the time and there's way too much snacking going on in there - new rules after the remodel?!

When choosing the pocket door placement, we were trying to make the range/hood on line with the french doors in the "family" room. A lot of people actually enter our home through those family room doors right now. We live on a golf course and people walk off the course, though our backyard and knock on the back door (into the family room!)Btw, the course view is the best thing we have going with this old house of ours right now! So, I wanted people to see a beautiful view of the kitchen when they walked through the family room doors. And I thought a beautiful range/hood would fit that bill. But I'm open to ideas!! Do u still need a master floor plan? Thanks so much again for all your help!

I forgot to say that I really like the second inspiration pic and that kitchen doesn't appear to have tall ceilings at all. I like how they went free of uppers except for the stacked cabinet.

nothing in this kitchen is symmetrical to start with. Not even the window wall, which is open at one end and has a corner (ergo lazy susan) at the other end. Do not think about symmetry until later in the game when you get your functional zones and areas mapped out. Then you can go back to using near-symmetry as one of the many things occupying your mind.

Going off Buehl's copy of your picture...I'd say that the prep sink should be on the island and the main sink, under the window. I'd make that window much larger (maybe three windows?) to bring more light into the space. Even white kitchens need lots of natural light.

The barstools in the dining room, look too close to the table. Maybe a pass-through there, instead...with more or a buffet feel? Instead of the posts on each end, maybe glass front storage for dishes and wine glasses?

This has probably been mentioned, but if you like symmetry, I'd move the library door over, so it is opposite the other door...making the sink wall (hopefully, with lots of windows) more symmetrical. It also gives you more prep space around your range and your walkway would go past the island.

I agree with Dilly, about lots of windows, rustic wood floor and baskets. I'd also include some plants (maybe herbs in the big window) and some blue. I always think of ocean colors, creamy white and rustic wood, when I picture Nantucket style :)

I couldn't find the picture I was looking for, but Boxerpups probably has a bunch! This is just showing the blue as a backsplash, to bring in more color.

Also, are you using a lot of stainless steel...or could you incorporate some antique brass on hardware, lighting, etc. That always looks very 'Nantucket' to me :) {{gwi:1946205}}From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

Sorry, but you have a giant kitchen yet your refrigerator, range and sink are squeezed in this awkward space that will be a traffic nightmare. At the very least, move the island up 6 inches.

Your measurements do not add up. Nonetheless, I worked something up trying to keep the look you want. The cabinet sizes are just estimates b/c I don't have the right measurements for the space.

With zones...

If you're willing to deviate a lot from your initial design, more options are available.

Just verifying...you're OK with seeing the kitchen from the front door... At the very least, I would not want my Cleanup Zone visible from the front door! (My kitchen is visible from the front door, but just a "slice" and it's the ovens, so no "mess" can be seen.)

Buehl's drawing is a great improvement. In a room that large, I'd like more room around the range, but long runs could

I think it was said above that the second inspiration photo didn't appear to have tall ceilings. That one is at least a 9 foot and I think a 10 foot ceiling. The one Lavender Lass posted is probably a 9 foot ceiling. I'm not sure how to deal with that, but you need to realize the difference.

I'd put your espresso with the other beverage service/snack area so you have the fridge for milk to be steamed. I'd also try to have that snack area in a location that allows the boys, soon to be teens, to grab drinks and snacks with minimal traffic in your work zones. Those same traffic patterns may apply when entertaining adult crowds too -- keep you work zones clear as much as possible.

Your kitchen is very large, yet you do not have a pantry or butler's pantry. Where do you plan to store dry good and non-perishables? Does the dish storage near the DWs give you enough storage for the dishes you use with entertaining, including holiday or occasional use? I'd consider cabinets down to the corner over the ice maker and the opposite end of the beverage/snack run so you have a place for cups and stemware. We have that on our hutch and the 2 small drawers are great for wine gadgets, napkins, trivets, tea and hot chocolate, etc.

Thank you all for your amazing help - I'm truly grateful.

brianadarnell - Great point about the ceiling in that second pic. I'm calling my cab maker tomorrow to see how high those ceilings are in that house/kitchen. I think it works proportionally.

davidro 1 - When I really look at it, you're right! I guess I was fixated on the glass cabs, etc. And, yes, I still need to work through some functional issues. And function should come before form :).

lavenderlass - I completely agree about the sink locations. That's the config I started with (but only because it allows me to look out my backyard which I like :) not because I have a functional eye :)) I also agree about the barstools - actually that dining table is going to be reassigned to the family room (by the fireplace and under a 9'4" ceiling - can't wait for that. The library area (that abuts the 9 foot bar with the stools) is kind of a weird, undesignated space right now. We're thinking of putting 4 club chairs and a coffee table there - but I'm still not sure... Love the glass cab/column idea - my cab maker has actually been pulling for that idea! And you and Buehl are right about moving the door. I love that idea. And thx for the thoughts on Nantucket palettes and details - I actually have some Nantucket baskets (one actually made my father-in-law) that I can't wait to showcase. And the picture is perfect at showing that style - it's amazing how warm woods and finishes really transform a white space (that could easily tend toward being too cold or sterile). Thx again.

felixnot - Definitely agree about moving the sink. And thx for your thoughts on traffic flow. That's key in my house full of busy boys!

buehl - Wow!!! Thx so much for drawing those up. They're amazing. My thoughts:

1. Love the new door location and how it helps every zone look and work better.
   2. Island config looks fantastic (and seating is so practical) - at some point, I'd love to know how you picture that looking from an elevation standpoint. I'm wondering if I could go slightly wider (say a few inches) on the island sink. I really think I'd use it but what are your thoughts?
   3. I'm very excited about the cooking zone. Where do you picture spices (and oils) going? Fridge is in great spot - espec. for my little snackers:) DH LOVES your Miele stack placement (in line with the bev zone). What do you think about my whole hood anxiety? Do you think I have the right proportion- and do you think I'm making the right decision about going with the 36 vs. the 48" range?
   4. For the clean-up zone, the traffic is incredibly improved! Thx! My only concern is about the window being enlarged. It's about that size right now and the reason we're minimizing it is because I really don't like the view (ie., old fence - that we'll replace in the near future - but dull nonetheless. What r your thoughts?? Re: the 2 dishwashers flanking the big sink, I've seen that impressive config in many beautiful magazine shots - but do you think I'll not having one near my island sink? It's extremely practical your way though!
   5. Re: seeing my dirty dishes from the front door, my kitchen is not visible from my front door at all. You will see it from the backyard (thru the french doors in the family room) and the side door/previously dutch door:) but minimally. I feel comfortable with it. You do see the faucet on the island from the back door but I'm planning on doing a pretty bridge or gooseneck that has a nice profile. Is that ok?

Overall, buehl, I love your plan!! Btw, I am certainly open to deviating from my original design so if you have other options I'd love to hear them. In the meantime, I'll go verify all those measurements! Thx so much again.

lascatx - Thx for feedback re: the snack area. Corraling hungry boys and giving them a flow for getting food (which I've heard from friends becomes constant in their teens!)is key!! Maybe I should consider a fridge drawer in the tv room down the road?? I love the hutch idea - r u thinking of doing it instaed of the columns? or somewhere in that bar island?The right hand column is structurally key - it'll be steel underneath and reach down into the crawl space to support some major walls so I have to have it there. The other half column that sits on the left side is faux though. Also, thx for bringing up the pantry issue. We have a pantry designated for the space in the library labeled "wine" by a widhful thinking architect :). We do store wine but not there. I'm a little nervous about that location -- and I'm still trying to figure out if there's cab space in the actaull kitchen where we could put it. Any ideas??Thx!!

buehl - forgot to mention that I love the snack zone - that is actually a super important zone that gets a lot of action! Didn't think about that until tonight!

Just a quick comment - do you need to have the open wall to the library? It seems like you have a ton of counter seating and that the seating on the library side may be redundant and often unused. If you close just that 108" space, that could be a great spot for your refrigerator - perhaps you could do a 48 inch frig and eliminate the bev fridge, or you could do the separate frig/freezer columns with "snack" zone in the middle (thinking of a set-up like niffy or a few others on here)...

Wow! I am so excited about Buehl's layout. It shows everything I was trying to say, but lacked the ability to draw! I love the new snack area and I also really like the range wall and island now too. I still think you need to give thought to the upper cabinets and maybe eliminating them. If you went with uppers on the range wall, you could store cooking essentials (spices, oils, etc) there. If you eliminated uppers on the sink/DW wall, you could do a huge long window or a counter height window that would really make your space look bigger despite the low ceiling...just my thoughts! I hope you like buehl's plan! Your kitchen is going to be amazing.

Marg- Glad you liked the picture! As for the low ceilings, that can be cozy and romantic...but I like cottage style :)

I've read that painting a ceiling a light color can make it feel taller. Maybe a soft sky blue? All I could find is this porch picture, but I'd go with a softer blue. Maybe a much lighter version of the backsplash? {{gwi:1946208}}From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

aokat 15 - I think the seating is overkill too... My favorite thing about that columned library bar is the fact that it's open - and you can see through into the kitchen. (our house right now is so compartmentalized into small rooms- I'm dying to knock down that wall between the "library" and the kitchen). I wonder if there's a way to minimize that see-through space and maximize its efficiency as a snack zone. To your point, we've been toying with splitting up the refrig/freezers into columns - a number of people on GW say you need more than 24" for a refrig (which is why we have a 30"/18" split in the subzero). Maybe we could replace those columns and make it more of a furniture-esque hutch with floor to ceiling narrow cabs flanking the bar... I don't know if I'm making sense! I if you have a chance, would you mind looking at my attached pic that addresses what you're talking about and let me know what you think. Thx!

brianadarnell - I love buehl's plans too! And thx for all your feedback! I'm hesitant about the bigger window scenario because we have such a suboptimal view there (i.e., old fence looking into neighbor's house) We have a wide window right now - albeit ugly - but I just don't like the view. Cost-wise and design-wise , though, it may be worth sprucing up that area with landscaping and we have been talking about a new fence - and we could do a cool detail/trellis? in front of that expanded window. Ugh - I'm really wondering about that. If you have a chance, would you also check out my attached pic which may make better use of that library bar than just having half columns sitting on it? Thx again!

lavender lass - I LOVE that ceiling color idea - i.e., light blue or something that ties into/reflects the backsplash - or maybe even the countertops. That is an amazing idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: Alternate library bar idea - modified columns

I usually catch this board on the run, and while I hadn't previously read this thread I must have read the title because I've been humming that song (Aint too proud to beg) all day. I mean ALL day. Everywhere. (Help!)

I love where this is going. I'd vote for keeping the wall to the library area open, it seems like a great place to lay out snacks when you, say, host a book club at your house. :-) Really, it is nice to have a place to pass through or lay out food to other rooms, I could even see setting up a buffet style dinner on it for the dining room. I like it the way it is, even if you don't often pull up stools to it.

No offense, but for my OCD self's sake, I hope this thread sinks fast so that I can get this song out of my head. haha

Hi buehl! I re-measured and here are the #'s :
1. Range wall, etc. - 258" (not 240")
2. Window/big sink wall - 170" (like you have)
3. Library bar - 108" (like you have)

P.S. Where do you picture the warming drawer going? In Miele espresso/oven stack?

Thanks so much again - it looks beautiful!!

Thx Kris ma! Keep on humming :). This is pretty close to the look of the library bar we started with:

What do you think of this- instead?

Here is a link that might be useful: Library bar configurations (1 of 3)

marg - I really love those pics! I can definitely understand the desire to have things open as I did the same thing with our addition/remodel. I would just think about if the seating is necessary and if not, you could panel the backside, or if you needed more storage, use the backside for cabinets/bookshelves as well. I actually have a very similar divider between by eat-in area in the kitchen and the family room. Here is a very old thread with it at the bottom:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0600051822779.html

When I was figuring out this divider, this was another thread that had some great photos:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0510580223874.html

Good luck!

I'll try re-working the layout tonight...if I have time. For the right wall, I used the smaller measurement, the 162".
Oh, what's the distance b/w the "top" column on the left Library/Kitchen island and the wall on the far right that forms the right wall of the DR?
The distance b/w the bottom wall and the far end of the Library/Kitchen island on the side?
It looks like the distance b/w the bottom column & the wine "closet" is 36", is that correct?

Warming drawer...it could go in the oven stack b/c it's so close to the range, but try not to put it too far down b/c if it's too low (close to the floor) you might not use it. However, I recommend putting it in one of the cabinets flanking the range in the "middle drawer" position. I put mine in that position & it's a good height, not too high, not too low! Ours is also in a cabinet next to my cooktop.

How wide a WD are planning? I have a 30" and have to say I would not want it to be any smaller (I use it all the time, btw, it was a great addition to our kitchen and in a great location...I was going to put it in our oven stack, but I learned here that it's much more useful right next to or across from the cooktop/range!)

Check out ArtTeacher_NJ's kitchen...I love this kitchen!

Click on the link to her photos. The second & third pics are what I was thinking of if you were willing to close up the wall a bit....

Here is a link that might be useful: ArtTeacher_NJ's Kitchen

Just saw this today -- I was thinking of something like what Buehl linked in ArtTeacher's kitchenYou can incorporate the columns into that structure, have a place for stems, cups, etc., and still have a generous pass through. My breakfast hutch just has 15" on each side (stems and glassware) and my center (closed back) has open shelves above. I keep mugs on the bottom shelf, but I only had 54" to work with. I do have fridge drawers in the bottom of the hutch. I think they'd be great for that area.

Thank you, thank you again everyone - fantastic advice and the links have been so helpful.

aokat15 - YOUR divide is lovely! and your fireplace - is that a granite surround? - looks beautiful too! Stunning! And 2 of the pix in the 2nd link u sent are in one of my digital files - too funny! - in particular, the first one by designer Elizabeth Dinkel has been in my favorite file for a year now :). Thank you!I've always liked it - it must be meant to be a part of my kitchen design:)

buehl - I can't thank you enough - and my DH is really enjoying all of your updates and ideas that you post!! He and I are totally on board with the idea of the hutch-like bar (and the off-set faucet/sink on the island-like mine you drew!) shown in the Art teacher/NJ link. Re: your questions above:
1."distance b/w the "top" column on the left Library/Kitchen island and the wall on the far right that forms the right wall of the DR" 13 FEET (from right side of column)14 FEET (from left side of column); 12" column width (You're talking about the wall that the fireplace is on, right?)
2. "distance b/w the bottom wall and the far end of the Library/Kitchen island" 15 FEET
3. "distance b/w the bottom column & the wine "closet" is 36", is that correct" YES/36"

Regarding the WD, the one I've picked is the Miele 30" - to be paneled. It's my favorite because it has open sides which seems to allow a little more space for dishes and it's easier to get/slide things out of it. I'm really excited about that appliance. And I love your idea of having it flank the stove in the middle - I totally get the flow of doing that - why can't I think of those things?! I keep saying this but truly thank you so much for everything!!

lascatx - thank you for all the details around the library island design . I am so excited about this zone now! Question: the 15" you have on each side, are they glass/see thru shelves in a cabinet? Did you light the inside of the cabs? and what kind of fridge drawer do you have - did u panel them? And what do you put in them? I'm really curious now... would it be ok being close to my mini refrig? I assume they are for totally dif purposes. Now you have me thinking about a snack refrig drawer for my boys - it would be so much nicer for them to have a go-to drawer than always opening up the heavy sub zero refrig door. I'm espec thinking about this option because we're not planning on getting a water dispenser on the door of the subzero - and we're planning on paneling it to make it look cleaner and cut down on my smudge removal duty :). Thx!

Missed a couple of measurements....

(1) The length of the wall left of the refrigerator in the overall layout (38"?)

(2) Total width/length of wall segment that has the "Dutch door"

(3) Width of the "Dutch Door"

(4) Distance b/w the "Dutch Door" and the far right wall (looks like around 27")

(5) Distance the backyard french doors are from the right wall (the wall w/the fireplace)

(6) Width of the backyard french doors

++++++++

My only concern is about the window being enlarged. It's about that size right now and the reason we're minimizing it is because I really don't like the view (ie., old fence - that we'll replace in the near future - but dull nonetheless

A couple of things...

(1) You could put in "decorative" windows that maybe "blur" the view while still letting in a lot of light

(2) Consider making the fence more attractive...maybe fancier planking or planting blooming vines of some sort or roses on a couple of trellises

(3) Plant a garden along the new fence line that makes it a joy to look at. Maybe add a fountain or pond (if there's room) for more interest.

Some window ideas:

Illusions, Inc. (Decorative Designer Privacy Windows)
SwitchLite Privacy Glass
US Block Windows (Glass block)

Fences & Gardens along fences:

Bamboo Fence (& the Japanese garden - bottom picture)
Google Images for "Decorative outdoor fencing"

Marg, I really like both of your inspiration pics for the library wall. I also like the way Artteacher did it. They're all pretty similar and I think they're on the right track. oooh...I'm so excited for you. It's coming together so well.

I would definitely consider sprucing up the yard so that you can take advantage of that window wall. I think the large window will provide light and a vista that will make the kitchen seem larger even with the ceilings. Hope that helps!

buehl - Here are more meausurements. Thanks again!!!
1) 30"
(+ 4" depth of wall) (the length of the wall housing the pantry/wine is 45" and less 15" = 30" /length of wall to left of refrig)
(2) 96"
(3) 36"
(4) Yes, 27"
(5) 48"
(6) 60"

I agree about the advantage of natural light and having an enlarged window. The distance between our exterior wall and the fence is 6.5 feet. I called a landscaper per your (and other GWers) advice and we're going to brainstorm some landscaping solutions :). I can post some pix of the current space if that helps.

brianadarnell - thx for your wonderful support. That window is a tough one for me. From a flow standpoint, I'm trying to guide people through our house straight to the back - not the sides which don't have great views. But I'm willing to try the larger window idea :) - especially if it makes the space seem larger :).

Two DWs...we have had several people here with two DWs and the consensus is that having them together in the Cleanup Zone (or at least close to each other) is preferable. Those who have had them separated have said they end up running back & forth b/w them b/c they didn't remember where they put what. At least a couple have said in their new kitchens they put them "together" and are much happier now.

Of course, everyone is different, but it's something in to consider.

Another thought is to get two DW drawers...put a full-size DW + one drawer next to the cleanup sink and the other DW drawer next to the prep sink in the island (left) or in the Library/Kitchen island for snack dishes...but you will still have that separation. If you think you and your family can be disciplined enough to only put snack dishes (or your wine glasses) in the one in the island, it might work. I know it probably wouldn't work with me or my family!

OK, based on all the above measurements, how does this look? The Library/Kitchen island is similar to ArtTeacher_NJ's. I tried very hard for symmetry since it's important to you and your DH.

Since you will be getting inset cabinets, I think you can go with 1" counter overhangs b/c the doors will be sitting inside the frame of the cabinet, not in front of the cabinet frame. However, if you want the extra 1/2" depth in the counter, go ahead and do that, it won't make much difference in the aisles.

The islands both have a 1.5" overhang, but the sink and range walls have a 1" overhang. So, if you switch them all to 1.5" overhangs, your aisles will only be reduced by 1/2".

Note that I increased the depth of the sink wall to let you have 15" deep upper cabinets for your dishes...you'd be surprised how much room those extra 3" add!

The oven stack will allow you to fit the speed oven you're thinking about as well as a "regular" wall oven + MW. If you do the oven + MW. I would consider moving the Espresso (plumbed) to the Library island. Maybe have the first 15 to 18 inches of the tall cabinets on each end of the island could be enclosed for the plumbed Espresso machine on one end and a place for a toaster or other appliances on the other end. If you're getting the Miele Coffee System, it needs an area approx 14" tall x 12" deep x 24" wide....so it would fit in either the oven stack or the island.

I don't know if you have a pantry elsewhere, but in case you do not, I added two 18" pantries flanking the sink wall.

Are you interested in a walk-in or step-in pantry in the kitchen?

i see i lot of good work in the above posts. Consider double checking the actual dimensions of a fridge. If it's many more inches than "counter depth" consider making the counter between the fridge and stove into a deeper counter. Moving the island a few inches away to compensate can work well, too. And if that means the most well-adapted island shape turns out to be a triangle or an "L", so be it.

Sorry -- football game last night and my son's district choir auditions today (we were the hosting school). I'm so pooped I almost didn't look at the computer, but getting off my feet and DH and DS taking most of the sofa led me this way.

The 15" cabinets have glass shelves and leaded glass in the doors and they are lighted. However, mine are against a brick wall so there is no pass through. Mine is more a serving area to the side of my breakfast room. I think something like that would look great with lighted cabinets and glass on both sides. If you do that, you may want to think about whether you want to support beverage service on both sides of the bar. That could be great, but your wine storage, espresso maker, fridge drawers, etc. would have to be thoughtfully separated, decorated for equal back viewing or duplicated.

My fridge drawers are Perlick. They were the best I saw in 24". Some looked like they would not withstand daily use -- just occassional game room activity and not that much cooling. That was confirmed after our purchase when the person doing our cabinet order did a stadium skybox. The one thing they were not happy with was the fridge drawers that would not stay chilled with the constant opening and closing. They replaced with Perlick and all was well again.

We needed the high BTU power of Perlick for faster chilling recovery because we put the drawers in a high traffic area. They are opened and closed a lot, all day long and more when we have guests. We keep milk and juices, a filtered water pitcher and usually some iced tea and/or other drinks as well as a couple of jams or jellies for toast and sandwiches in the top drawer. The other drawer typically has water, sodas, juice pouches and often beer. Sometimes we keep yogurt in the drawers since most of the breakfast stuff is at the hutch, but we're inconsistent on that one. We use the drawers for beverage service at everyday meals, for making lunches, for snacks and for keeping traffic away from the cooking zone both at meals and when entertaining. The large fridge is all about cooking and food. The one snacking item that is generally still in the big fridge is fruit, but when traffic is likely to be an issue, I'm also likely to put out a bowl of washed fruit for snacking.

And yes, they are paneled. The Perlick has a digital temp readout between the counter and the top drawer, but most folks don't notice it and I'v found it very helpful.

Did I miss anything?

Buehl -- This is really fantastic! Thank you, thank you for all your help on this! The flow is amazing -particularly around the island with the new door - and the zones are so clearly designated now and much more practical. Regarding your questions:

PANTRY- we have a pantry designated in the plans (as "Wine") in the library. It will be located under the new staircase (which probably won't get finished until the fall of 2012) and accessed through a door in the library. Having those 2 columns you added on either side of the sink wall is great, though!! (DH loves it!) . You also asked whether I'd like a walk-in or step-in pantry - where do you see that going? and I'm assuming that would replace the 2 columns on the sink wall?

DWs - DH and I really like the config you have. The more I think about it, the more I see how it will streamline what I do in the kitchen.

MIELE speed oven - Since we're going with the 48" (you like that better than the 36" right?) I think the speed oven is all I need - it's a regular oven, micro, convection and speed oven all in one. So I think I'm leaning toward having it under the Miele espresso - this is purely a form/aesthetic call on my part :). Do you think I'm making a functional mistake?!

LIBRARY/KITCHEN ISLAND - We both are thrilled about your drawing here too. I always wanted a buffet/hutch scenario from the beginning but thought it wasn't possible. Thank u! A couple questions:

1. Do you see the previously drawn half columns going away and being replaced by the two 28.5" side cabs (that reach from the counter to the ceiling)? The column closest to the refrig is faux but we will need a structural beam on the other side (probably going down to crawl space - we have a structural engineer working on all of those issues this week. It supports a critical junction in the house (i.e., where the vaulted ceiling ends along with supporting the second floor load) Do u think we'll be able to hide it in the new cabinet?

2. I saw you replaced the 24" mini bev fridge with refrig drawers. Have you found better success with those?

3. How do you see the other side of that bar functioning ? I see that it's bumped out in the middle with blue dots - just wondering what that means. I can't wait to hear your thoughts!

2 more functional questions-sorry! :

1. TV - Where would u put a small flat screen tv? (DH request-and I'd probably like it too) I'm thinking somewhere in the sink wall area - or above the Miele stack?

2. Cookbooks - I have at least 150. Is there anywhere they could go? If not, I've designated a cabinet in the TV room for them. Nice to have but not necessary.

We are so excited about this new design buehl! It's definitely more functional and I think it's more beautiful too! Thx again - make that a million times thanks buehl!

davidro 1 - thx for bringing up the fridge dimension question ! I went online and checked the Wolf and Sub-Zero dimensions and I found that: (1) the fridge sticks out 28 and 3/8" (2) the range sticks out 26 and 3/16" - which means the deepest I could probably go out with the counter is 26" (vs. the std. 24")?? What do you think davidro 1 and buehl?
Davidro 1 - is your reason for doing this that it looks better? And would you move the island accordingly 2 more inches to compensate? (making the distance between the island and the wall now 46") All of these things I hadn't thought about! Thx!

lascatx - football season is draining! Our sons' friends are exhausted but having a great time! I am quickly becoming a Perlick convert - we chose that brand for the icemaker because we were unanimously told it's a superior product. DH LOVED your idea of them for our fridge drawers too. Thx for listing what you use them for too. Excited about that. And I love the idea of lighting the side glass cabs. I think it will lighten up the space and add some sparkle at night! I'm thinking I may use that backside space partially for cookbooks? I have about 150 of them and right now, I travel upstairs to the spare bedroom to retrieve them. Not practical at all - but I guess a decent workout - lol. Although I really like the idea of making that space usable from both sides. Hmmm ... What do you think?

If you have the ability to make both sides functional, that'[s kind of a special and somewhat unique touch that I'd probably go for it. The lightness of it would seem to be nice for your large but low area too. I think you said you had wine storage elsewhere, but I keep seeing library/wine room/gameroom -- a place for casual entertaining to expand with folks gathering near but not quite in the kitchen, a spot where you could serve desert, coffee, port or other after dinner drinks and relax in a different setting.

If your coffee maker ever leaks or drips, that oven below could have some electronics vs water issues. I would really like it over there on what I would think of as a beverage/entertaining bar. You reach up and grab a mug, the milk is right there is you need it, make the coffee, the sink is close. Not a huge difference across the aisle, but a few steps for each cup -- adds up when entertaining, especially if you have traffic in between.

If you don't need the pantries for food storage, you could use a pullout (12" would be enough) for books (make sure your hardware is really sturdy). Use the 18" pantries and put a wall of shelves for books in your pantry. Or -- you have a "library" right there -- says bookshelves to me!

lascatx - good point about electronics and water - and the idea of keeping the espresso machine in the beverage bar. And it's closest to the dining room and great room - where people will probably be sitting after dinner. DH really likes that idea as well! :). I agree about the cookbooks possibly being on the other side of the libary bar - in the library! It is one of my fav things to read :). Thx for all your help! Now I need to find a place for a small flat screen tv in the kitchen - I'm thinking in one of the 2 18" pantry columns or the Miele stack column along the range wall. Decisions, decisions!

marg42 each appliance has an electrical plug fitting into an outlet. This takes up another couple inches! It may be possible to place one or both of the outlets "just so" so that the plug slips into a cavity on the back side of the appliance. But, don't count on it. I had to re-do almost every outlet several times, and I'm known as a meticulous pre-planner. Manufacturer's spec documents are not accurate or clear. (and, they don't care because nobody litigates? I don't know.)

Then, every fridge needs open space around it. Another couple inches!

If you didn't know about these factors and if they all appeared at the end of the process you would suffer a lot of pain inside. Better to know about them now.

How many more inches to make that counter span between the two big appliances? That will be up to you.

The nice shape of island pictured above is nice and mirror-symmetrical, but its symmetry is a derivative of the boundaries of a rectangular computer screen or a rectangular piece of paper (you remember those from the 20th century, when people used to print documents.) I see NO reason to portray the island in that particular shape. It's a good first try, and it is a great "illustrative tool" to show you have the general floor area can be occupied. But its shape can be adjusted, altered, tweaked, modified. reworked and redone, and it will still make sense as a balanced proportioned symmetrical entity. Currently it does not meet that symmetry need. BUT I'm not going to propose any alternative today. You work it out. Remember that sym-metr- means with-measuring-proportioning-balance and IT DOES NOT mean "mirror image". A lot of people believe there needs to be some magical imaginary dividing line around which you get a mirror image effect, and that this "creates symmetry". The island shown above has this dividing line in it. If you printed it on paper and folded the curved edge in half, its two side lengths would touch end-to-end because they are are both the same length. This is Not optimal in any way. At the tail end of a simulation exercise, one must UN-mirror-image or DE-mirror-image (or use a completely different shape after the initial simulation euphoria), in order to make the newly-to-be-built reality match the already-built reality. Walls already built are the built reality. The new dream kitchen fits inside and does not fight against.

I'm not sure if davidrol is seeing what I was looking at last night since your library bar and prep island are both being called islands at times. The prep island is leaving a lot of space around it. I started looking at turning the orientation of the island, making it wedge shaped, L-shaped, 2 smaller islands -- not sure what I'd do, but you do have a lot of space and the ability to do some tings most of us can't even consider. You just have to question it and imagine it. By contrast, my kitchen, which still involved a fair amount of spinning and head banging, was easy because all the pegs had to fit into a set footprint. I was just moving squares -- not shaping anything.

With the TV room, library, dining room and living room -- how do you see that island seating functioning? What do you want the island to do for you? How do you need to control traffic flow, etc.? That would be what I would think about and see if what you have drawn is what works bets. It's good -- do you want to consider any other options? I was also looking at whether the pass through might be better on another wall -- which led to turning the island and raising other questions.... Sorry -- I have to kick around a lot and come back to what fits right -- just the way I do things. Hence the spinning and head banging, but I got a lot more out of my kitchen that I thought I could. When I see my neighbors just dressing up bad layouts, I don't regret it at all.

As for the TV, consider that you have a TV room on the other side of one wall, whether you will have a TV in the library for adult viewing when kids have the TV room, sound conflicts, whether you want to see it from the dining room, library or other spaces, whether you will close it off when not in use -- put a speaker where the cook is standing -- and whether you want to put an ipod jack there for music as well. I wish I'd thought about the music before we started, but the next room is not that bad.

davidro 1 and lascatx - you really have me thinking about the island shape and its functionality. I am constrained by the upper right hand corner (exterior wall that we won't be moving - huge expense!). So, if we moved it at all it would be to orient it vertically - but then you widen the distance between the sink/window wall by a lot. If I go with an "L" shape-which DH has been suggesting for a while! - I guess it would be oriented like looking at an actual "L" if you're standing at the range looking out to the backyard. (kind of like following the exterior wall corner). But then, how does it look if you're sitting in the dining room? Where do I put the stools? Ok, now u have me thinking - I'll get off the computer and go draw it! :)

davidro 1 - re: the your first point about outlets, is it a concern with my stack of appliances only? Does the refig need a lot of open space in the back? (beyond the profile of the outlet?) All good things to keep in mind!!

lascatx - re: island seating, I imagine my kids using it for homework and snacking the most; then I see our family of 4 using it for informal dining (hence the current seating config) - although I'd prefer no overhang to make it look like a regular rectangle; lastly, I picture friends hanging out there while we cook/entertain. Does that help? You're much better at thinking of potential scenarios and questions than I am! Thx for that! And as for the tv, it will be pretty insulated from the tv room tv - at least the plan is to make it as hermetically sealed as possible with the pocket doors and an additional door that leads into the other side of the tv room. I'd like to be able to watch the news and foodtv:) every once in a while - or have music piped in! (like you smartly suggested!).

marg42 you have a lot of square footage so this might mean you _could_ get a great layout.

You have a lot of cross views. This might mean you would want to simulate the views a lot.

In your OP, you wrote:
...
4. Only requirement structurally is a pass-through door (ie., pocket door) into TV room
5. Challenge: Want the range/hood to be a focal point ...
...

Does the hood have to be at that point where it was put in the layouts?