I see in the renderings you linked to it appears as if you nixed the corner sink. Good idea... I'm 5' too and it would never work for me. Did you eliminate the walk in pantry and then the tall wall cabs by your frig is a pantry? It's hard to read the main drawing, is there some way you could steal some space for the laundry room or other "dead" space" adjacent to the kitchen that would work as a walk in? They are so very functional.

The biggest problem with both plans is that your sink and refrigerator are as far as they can get from each other...on exactly opposite sides of the island. This would work if there were a prep sink in the island, but without, it means lots of laps around the island, and probably a lot of hip-bumping on the island corners in the process.

Hi. Oppsie. Nice to meet another shortie, especially one who "tops" me in that department--I'm 5'2".

Where the window goes:. You seemingly don't have a whole lot of window, and the rest of them are all facing east. Light coming from only one direction tends to produce glare, instead of pleasant sunshine, and of course being on the east walls means there's no sunshine at all after the morning.

Windows on south walls are almost always desirable because you'll have sunshine coming from that direction all through the cool/cold months as the sun arcs lower, and because during the hot months you'll also have bright sunlight but less directly into the kitchen as the sun arcs higher: a win-win window location. In your case, it means you'll have sunshine after midday.

The original plan's pair of windows wrapping around the corner not only gives you light from both directions but also a panoramic view for a person working there instead of a smaller framed one. So that's nice. Plus, if you have a privacy problem with a neighbor to the south (and/or directly to the east), it usually gives people with that situation a chance to have windows and still maintain privacy. In addition, it provides the opportunity to develop a view into the corner of the garden, which is for most tracts usually the longest back-yard dimension.

Finally, considering your potential view only, what's out there to look at and what don't you want to look at?

If you don't have a view-spoiler, like the very close side of a neighbor's house, out the south wall, I'd strongly consider framing a pair of windows to line up with your island as you look down the room into the kitchen, and right on out. This sort of thing makes a home feel nice and spacious, as well as well as adding the charm of sunlight.

If you do have a view-spoiler out there, then I'd go for a set of windows, larger than the builder's drawing offers, wrapping around the corner (and maybe set a birdbath backed by a sweep of shrubs off in the corner of the garden to enjoy while you work?).

And either way, I'd put my most important work counter in front of them.

@remodelfla: Yes, no corner sink, and I nixed the walk-in pantry. Just doesn't grab me, at least not where it's located, I guess? The tall cabs are pull-out pantry, yes. Not sure where else to put a walk-in, though, unless you think that corner is a fine place for it.

We can't take any space from the laundry room because we're having the plans redrawn to expand that room to 12x9 (into hallway and garage) to have a first-floor study. I felt there wasn't enough separated living space on the first floor, plus we can throw a closet in there and if the need ever comes (we're DINKs) use it as a 4th bedroom. Also I believe the West wall of the kitchen is load-bearing and there's only so much tweaking we can do to the plan without starting completely over, which I don't think is going to happen. The foundation is poured, was poured before we came on the scene (this was a spec house, identical house next door, but we're tweaking the floorplan where we can).

@rhome410: I've seen the great designs and renderings you've put together for people (what software is that, anyway?) and I hope you can give me advice as we go through this process! :) You're amazing. I agree the work triangle bothers me. I believe the max width for the island is 54". We've been trying to figure out if we should put the cooktop in the island, move things to the sink and cooktop are both on the South wall, or what. My concern with putting the cooktop in the island is that removes a lot of prep counter space, and I prefer to do my prep work in an open area (meaning no cabs above) facing the great room. I'm also torn about where to put the double oven, on the East or the West wall. They certainly do not have to be right next to the fridge and in fact that kind of bothers me. Just seems like not a great idea.

@rosie: Yep, we're short. So are my parents -- they did a fantastic, gorgeous kitchen a few years ago (way bigger budget than us!) and actually made their island a few inches shorter than the rest of the counters. It's great to work at. I'm not sure that we'll do that, though, I'm concerned the price of doing that and still having cabinet space in the island will be too prohibitive.

There are tons of windows in the great room, which is 2-story. I've been thinking about putting the sink on the South wall and therefore the window would go there -- it would most likely look on a fence surrounding the property and the house next door about 15 feet away or so. That house will be identical on the exterior to ours. Not really a view-killer but no great shakes. I think I'd rather look at the backyard (East) but that wall is short given the presence of the doorwall. Plus like I said I prefer to do prep work at the island. Unless we lose uppers on the South wall and gain a window or two...hmm.

I do think there are just way too many uppers on the South wall. I'd rather have a big window or two, the vent hood, etc.

What about a T-shaped island? L-shaped? Should we dump the island entirely and do a peninsula off the East wall? Or rotating the island 90 degrees (of course then if you're working at it your looking East or West...)

On the plus side I know that anything we do will be an upgrade over our current kitchen -- pretty much the max counterspace width I have available anywhere is 18-24" tops (9x8 or so space, peninsula open to dining room with cooktop in the middle, other counter has sink in the middle, and the back wall is fridge/wall oven. I end up using the kitchen/DR table all the time as prep space). The work triangle in there is well thought out, though. I just need to do the same for this new kitchen!

My software is Chief Architect. They also make the home design softwares for Better Homes and Gardens, which are available lots of places. (Amazon, Costco) It is the software that's amazing, and I can't take credit for the clear floorplans and helpful 3D renderings it does.

We can all have a club, because I'm only 5'3" and it looks like my dd's, at least the older 2, will be a little shorter. We have our island, our baking counter, AND our rangetop and adjacent counters 2-3 inches shorter than standard. We find this great for kneading, rolling, and chopping, as well as seeing into the mixer and pots and pans. Our only 36" counters in the kitchen are around the main sink and at our 30" wide breakfast counter.

I like the island design and have rarely seen L or T islands that I like. (Maybe just personal preference) I'm wondering if you switch the oven and fridge if you'll have a straighter shot between sink and fridge. Still not ideal, but better.

I'd love to do that. I just think lopping a few inches off pushes you from semi-custom to super-custom and we're trying to keep the cabs to 15k. The cab guy does Schrock.

DH's big idea today is this:
"I think the vertical island (N-S instead of E-W) with the range in it and moving the fridge to the center area across near the island is the way to go. range is at the head of the island, you would face the great room, sink would be where it currently is in rendering."

This has some potential but I fear we're now talking about a colossal island because a 36" cooktop at the narrow end of an island is still going to need space around it to do stuff like put a platter to catch fried items that need to drain, etc. Of course, it doesn't have to be a rectangular island I suppose...

rhome, I'm sure it's somewhere and I could find it but just to save me some time could you provide a link to pics of your kitchen/design? :)

Wouldn't a north-south island really cut into the dining area?

You can vent the cooktop a whole lot easier on the outside wall than on the island.

I wouldn't want it on the end of an island, either, because, like you say, unless you make it 6-7 ft wide, you'll be short on workspace to the sides of it. (and it's not all about looks, but wouldn't it look like an afterthought?)

4th thing I don't like about his plan (my apologies to a dh who is contributing ideas, which is a good thing) is that the fridge should be easy to get to without going into the middle of the kitchen. People access the fridge for many reasons and you want them to be able to do that without tromping into the middle of the workspace.

Did you think my idea of switching the fridge and oven had any merit, or helped?

If you really don't think you want or need all those uppers on the south wall, I really like the idea of windows to each side of the cooktop and hood. It's a nice look, and they can be as narrow or wide as you'd like. Some people have done stained glass or some other kind of obstructed glass to still let the light in without a clear shot of a less than lovely view.

Sorry, you asked for my layout and kitchen photos.

Here's my layout and a link to the latest photos is below.

Here is a link that might be useful: kitchen photos in the gallery

I like the idea of two narrow windows on either side -- I think that would look great. What are your thoughts on the sink position, should that stay on the East wall or join the cooktop on the S?

A workable N-S island would cut into the dining area I think, yes. And I really don't think moving the fridge to the S wall would help. Ovens and fridge switch -- yes, I think that helps with the workflow. Ovens certainly get used less than fridge, sink and cooktop. But I'm concerned that moving the fridge that close to the corner will limit door opening ability. I need to get your software and go nuts with it tonight, I think. Hope it doesn't have a steep learning curve.

I think the only thing the E-W island will have room for, if anything, is a prep sink. I don't see a prep sink as a huge need, it's a nice-to-have. The 54" island length is with I think a couple of cabinets under it, bookshelves, and the countertop will overhang.

Since you didn't mention the peninsula option shooting off the E wall (does that make it a G kitchen instead of U?) I'm assuming you're not a fan of that. What about the pantry? Am I making a mistake by changing it to a countertop right angle corner?

Awesome. That backsplash is fantastic. Running brick is my favorite and it's going to take some will-power not to subway tile my entire kitchen and all three bathrooms. I redid our half bath in our current house a year and a half ago this way and it turned out great.

Are you getting a new fridge or using an existing? It looks like the oven is currently about 2 ft from the adjacent cabinet run so a French door or side-by-side fridge should open easily, or if you have a one-door style that hinges on the right (as it should for that layout), it won't be an issue at all.

I'm not a fan of the way a peninsula shuts off a kitchen and limits the traffic pattern...It puts everyone trying to go different directions on top of each other. I love how you can work from all sides of an island for more flexibility. Did you ever say if you have kids, and if so, what ages? Kid helpers make an island even more advantageous, because it offers so many more work stations, and a nice place to gather around to do projects together. :-)

The pantry is a tough one. I love our walk-in pantry for fitting odd shaped and large sized items, and fitting in bulk things, like multi-packs of paper towels and our rolling bins for wheat, flour, and pet food. It depends on how you shop, what you use, and if you have any other place to store such things. I'll add the link below to an older thread in which I showed photos of my pantry, just to give you an idea of what it does for me. (We also store the broom and power Swiffer in there...It's 48" wide by 44" deep.)

So what's wrong with subway tiles in all those places? ;-) They come in different textures and colors, and a running brick pattern is pretty timeless, I think.

Here is a link that might be useful: previous thread with photos of my pantry

I didn't finish my thought about the pantry situation. As much as I do like my pantry, I can see how it frees up your layout to have the cabinet pantry instead of the corner one. I'm not big on the pantries that have all the organizational gadgets... I don't want to pull out several things to find things tucked in behind, and I don't want to be limited by the hardware when I'm organizing it. If I was going to have a pantry like yours, I would make it similar to a closet with shelves...So you can open the 2 doors and see everything at once on the shelves...Maybe 12" deep shelves across the back and on one side, with room for hanging the broom on the other side...A lot like mine, but in a cabinet.

It's just me and the DH -- kids are probably at least 3 years away and I doubt at that point they/it would be helping with the cooking or projects, unless they're truly amazing. And this isn't a remodel, it's a brand new house. Everything new! We'll be getting all new appliances, I'm looking at getting a bunch of Kitchen Aid stuff at the Great Indoors when they run their next 20% rebate deal. No built-in fridge, counter-depth 24.5cuft.

Paper towels and stuff I figure will just go in the unfinished basement.

Any issue with roll-out shelves in a cabinet pantry? Not the pull-out pantry with the railings.

Basically yeah I have no idea about whether a walk-in pantry is a good idea or a bad idea or what. I think I'm prejudiced from a previous house I stayed at for a month or two that had a walk-in in the same place that I disliked. I kind of wish we could do more of a pass-through butlers pantry but the only place I see that happening would eat what little mud room space we have.

and for reference our current pantry may or may not actually be a linen closet. It's in a hallway off our kitchen, has very deep shelves, and stuff gets lost in there constantly. So a walk-in does have some appeal, but pull-out shelves may be the other answer. I think maybe I just hate the idea of the walk-in being in that corner.

Lots of thinking to do.

Is this a house you plan to stay in for the long haul? If so and if kids are in the plans, they need to be figured in.

I thought maybe you already had a fridge, since you were worried about it opening in that spot. I don't think it'd be any problem, since you'll choose one that will! ;-)

Pullouts aren't my personal favorite, but I know there was a thread on cabinet pantries and people loved them in theirs. I just tend to try to overfill them, so things fall off the sides... I like to stack cans, and that doesn't work unless the rollout sides are taller than any I've had before, which is quite possible, I suppose.

Unfinished basement is a great place to make extra pantry space (for overflow), so since you aren't crazy about a walk-in, and it makes your plan better without it, then I'd go with the pantry cabinet instead, which is what you like and what works...People aren't always fortunate enough to have those be the same thing!

This house could go one of two ways. It could be a long-term/forever house -- it is big enough to have two kids in which would be our max. Or, if the DH gets a great job offer elsewhere, we could have to move in a couple of years when he finishes his MBA. So it's an unknown.

So you'd be a fan of a 54" square island? That has potential.

If we do have kids in this house (or maybe even if we don't) we'll eventually finish the basement. 9' ceilings and plumbed for a bath.

I missed something. I think I knew you wanted the island to be 54" long, but 54" square?

Just occurred to me looking at your squarish island. If the island is 54" long, how wide "should" it be?

Okay -- here is the latest design we came up with with cabinet guy. In the drawing the microwave is in the island, which I don't love. My chickenscratch blue notes indicate another option, putting the microwave between the fridge and the Southwest corner, which would necessitate a 27" cabinet and force us from a 36" pantry (on end of West wall) to a 30" pantry. I like the microwave better there, but I"m worried about shrinking the pantry. Putting the fridge closer to the South wall instead of the double oven requires us to buy an extra panel but I think it will be worth it. This design has an 18" upper on either side of the range hood, and then an 18" window between each upper and the corner uppers. Still a 48" window over the sink which is on the East wall (looking into backyard).

Hope you all have some constructive feedback on this design -- it definitely seems an improvement to me than the first one! I should have renderings tomorrow or Tuesday if you find the design below impossible to read. :)

{{gwi:1943676}}

Okay, just came up with what I think is a better solution for the microwave. Put it in the upper to the left of the sink. That preserves the 36" pantry.

Is it a problem to have the fridge and double oven next to each other? If so could swap the oven and the pantry -- kind of isolates the oven but that's the least used appliance I think.

Also, I'm not sure what we were thinking with the pullout trash in the island. That should go under the sink.

Mine is 48 x 60". I didn't think you had room for anything more than 36" or 42" as shown in the first plan.

I can't really tell for sure, but is your fridge on the end of the run on the right? Sorry, but that's terrible, especially with that island that is more of a challenge to get around. And if you think you'll fit seating on that side of the island, I'm afraid you'll be aggravated and disappointed. 39" for the aisle is 21" short of what's recommended to have seating backing up to cabinets that you'll want to access while people might be in the seats.

I'm not a huge fan of upper corner cabinets hanging up there on their own, so would rather have it just be flat into the corner facing one way or the other...But I can see it balances the one on the other side, so I'm not sure what I'd do in that case...Probably not do diagonal faced cabinet in that corner either, but that may just be my personal preference.

The sink and stove runs both look closer to what you'd wanted...But the fridge location and island shape seem to be big problems. I'd go back to the original island orientation and still would move that fridge toward the back wall, with it first in that line of tall cabs instead of last, so it lines up better with the work aisle.

Didn't see your last post to answer those questions before. The problem with having fridge and ovens next to each other is fridge handle or door hitting the oven handle. As far as heat and cold being next to each other, I wouldn't worry.

Maybe I misunderstood the order of things on the fridge/oven wall. I would do, facing it from left: Fridge, pantry, then oven, unless you can be sure the oven handle won't interfere with opening the fridge doors, then the pantry and oven could switch if you want.

Have to say that I love our trash pullout with 2 cans (1 for trash, the back one for recycle) WAY more than I ever did having the trash under the sink. Ours is in the island, right behind the prep sink, facing the cleanup sink, so we can easily access it and the dishwashers at once while cleaning up. It's also convenient to the prep area and the stove.

On the West wall it goes: corner, small cab (24"?), fridge, double oven, pantry. If you're facing it that's from left to right. Does that clarify the order for you? Does it make sense to keep it in the order I described above or are you proposing something different? I would rather move the fridge even closer to the corner but then the corner cabs wouldn't work I don't think.

To put the trash under the sink I'm assuming we can still do the pullout as it would be in the island. My parents have their pullout trash under the sink. Yep, room for two cans. I do like the new shape of the island; not sure we'll do a whole lot of seating there. But I think we need to swap the ovens and pantry now, thinking about it more, so that when stuff comes out of the oven it's in the larger space in case people are seated behind it. If that makes sense.

I don't think there's any way to fit a prep sink in the island without losing the cabinet. I'm okay with that.

I think we're in agreement about the fridge/oven/pantry wall. You don't want it closer to the corner, because then you get a cave in the corner...Too dark and hard to reach. The way it is leaves it more open and easier to use.

I think the island complicates the traffic, reduces the use of the island from all sides, and reduces the seating you might've had on the dining side...But that's your call, of course. One thing I've wished I could change about our kitchen is to have the longer side of the island facing the stove. If you had seating on the dining side, facing you as you could prep there, it would make for comfortable conversation with visitors. Anyone seated at this island is potentially in your way. But that's my opinion, and I've more than had my say, so I won't push it any more! :-)

Hmm. So would you recommend a straight island, parallel with the South wall? Like what was in the first design? Would you put it in line with the pantry (moved to middle of oven and fridge) and dishwasher?

Say as much you want, I love it and need it!

That's what I would prefer (straight island parallel to south wall). I'd actually like it closer to the range for easier transfer of prep items to stove, but because of the fridge location, would place it 48" from the range wall, which should make it start right where the sink and dishwasher meet. It will overlap the fridge by 18", but I think that's the best you can do. I like rectangular islands, but could also see one like in the plan up top that has the arced overhang.

Here are the renderings from the cabinet guy. Still pondering the island. I have requested that we move the microwave to the upper cab left of the sink and the pullout trash under the sink. Let me know what you think!

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to new kitchen renderings

btw I think I'm going to leave the pantry on the end of the south wall -- easier snack/cereal access.

May not be clear from the renderings but the windows on the south wall are 18". Cabs next to the hood are same width.

Gotta solve this microwave problem! I talked briefly to cabinet guy today and he said that the upper left cab to the sink was a bad idea. Not sure why, he had to sign off. Will try to get full story tmw.

I agree with the cabinet maker and wouldn't want the microwave there...It's the best place for glassware, etc.

I think your windows are pretty squeezed, and I think it'd be more pleasant, proportionally, to have them be a different width than the cabinets. I'd narrow the cabinets on each side of the hood and give the windows a little elbow room...Maybe widen them a little bit. I'm guessing, but maybe the cabinets at 13" and the windows at 21".

Do you like that upper corner cabinet OK? I still think it looks really heavy...But like I said, maybe it's just me.

Still am against the island shape (big surprise), but just make sure you have a good aisle for getting from fridge to sink.