Can't say that I remember your last thread, and I'm no layout guru as my layout threads will attest to.

Having said that: I like the raised DW concept but do you think it's in a bad place opening right into the banquette area? I considered it b/c of a touchy back, but ultimately decided on a DW drawer (using the word decided in the most fluid way). Guess others with better eyes for this stuff will weigh in.

I know. Don't you hate thinking you've nailed it then you put it out here and... well you've obviously gone through it yourself already, lol. I think it can only be for the good ultimately, though.

I don't share Deedles' concern with the raised DW because it's against a wall, albeit a wall adjacent to the banquette. I actually was interested in your other thread, but this seems to be a completely different floorplan (in other words, the structure's planes are different)? Perhaps you are building new. One thing I found useful with your other design was that you indicated the purpose of each zone. Interestingly, I also wonder if that's why you got such aggressive feedback (I got the feeling posters were questioning the designated purpose rather than the layout). Anyway, that still may help with feedback on this layout. I find myself wondering how this layout parallels your earlier one (now where will you do the canning) :)

I've followed your previous threads and am familiar, to an extent, with your goals.

I'm curious how much you care about the aesthetics of the space? I say that because the random upper cabinets along the sink/range wall would bother me (just all three being different sizes and just... there)... but they might not bother someone simply wanting a workhorse of a kitchen. If you care at all, consider removing the middle cabinet that looks lonely next to the big hood vent. That might give the opportunity for a bigger window and would draw the attention to the hood and window.

RE: the DW... I like the DW directly next to the sink because I can avoid dripping that way. I don't think I could avoid it how you have it.

Did you put the double-ovens next to the banquette on purpose?....to close off that space somewhat? The double ovens look like they could be placed next to your fridge/freezer set up.... but that depends on if you were using those to create a visual barrier into that space or not. If you did move them, you'd have even more counter space. You also wouldn't have to caution guests not to move while you open the hot oven doors next to their seating area. (The timing of that may very rarely happen in your situation.... but something to think about!)

deedles,

Having said that: I like the raised DW concept but do you think it's in a bad place opening right into the banquette area?

Good eye for details. Here's how I come down on the question. It's only a problem in one specific time and that is when someone is sitting on that arm of the banquette at the same time that I'm loading/unloading the dishwasher, so it's a problem that needs multiple events occurring at the exact same time and when I stop loading/unloading, then the dishwasher placement doesn't look problematic to me.

I should thank all the participants in the dishwasher thread for this idea. I hadn't thought of it, I don't necessarily need it for myself, but I am trying to design my home so that I can age in place and there might be an elderly parent sharing the home with me at some point in the future. This feature isn't too obtrusive and I think that tucking it into the corner like this gains me some potential future function without costing any function or aesthetic in the present. So thanks to everyone in the other thread for opening my eyes to this feature.

I know. Don't you hate thinking you've nailed it then you put it out here and... well you've obviously gone through it yourself already, lol. I think it can only be for the good ultimately, though.

It is ultimately for the good, I agree. When I'm designing I tend to think that what I put down is inspired. Then I post it here and like Cher in Moonstruck, a "Snap out of it" event happens and my bubble bursts. Besides, I'm asking readers here to invest time in helping me design a better kitchen, so I should pay attention to what everyone is so generously offering. I don't want to be like some who post and ask for critiques and then defend every single point that is questioned and end up changing nothing. I'm not looking for validation, I'm looking to improve a kitchen that I'm going to have to live with, day in and day out.

twodogs,

I actually was interested in your other thread, but this seems to be a completely different floorplan (in other words, the structure's planes are different)?

This kitchen design process is giving me heartache. I had a whole house designed and then made my first submission here with respect to the kitchen design. Then I changed it, and repeated the process, and changes in the kitchen ended up rippling through the whole house to the point that I put that plan aside and now, with a basic layout of the first floor roughed in I'm not investing any design time in the rest of the house until I get this kitchen nailed down to the point that I'm happy with it.

So what you've noticed is that I have changed the outside walls. This is going to have direct impact on the 2nd floor, but I'll deal with that fall-out later, not to mention the roof line.

One thing I found useful with your other design was that you indicated the purpose of each zone.

That was because I had sat down and analyzed my activities and then made all sorts of lists, etc and the design was driven by those functions. This time I didn't have those functions at the top of my mind, this time I was going more with "how the spirit moved me" but modifying here and there in terms of practicality - work triangle preserved, wider entrance, stone peninsula for baking, wood surface for meat cutting, sink to share between the two, main sink near cooktop and near meat cutting, etc.

Your wish, though, is my command. Plan with zones labelled.

One aspect that is bugging me is that the microwave is stuck by the oven, in combination, clear across the room from the fridge. If I do a standalone microwave somewhere near the fridge then I have a hard time justifying a full height wall cabinet for just one oven. I think I can live with this design imperfection if no one else spots other imperfections.

Hey AlexHouse,

The design looks very good overall, and you've obviously put a lot of thought into it. I'm at the beginning stages of designing my new kitchen and I think I'll use some of your ideas. BTW what program did you use to create the plan? Do you like the program?

Thanks

lolauren,

I'm curious how much you care about the aesthetics of the space? I say that because the random upper cabinets along the sink/range wall would bother me (just all three being different sizes and just... there).

I intend to improve the aesthetics with the upper cabinets, but I don't have an inkling yet of how I'm going to do that. I haven't thought about ceiling treatment, I haven't thought about the actual design of the range hood (some big structure, no doubt) nor have I thought up the design of the decorative secondary uppers which will take the functional uppers to ceiling height. My hope is to use the secondary uppers to unify the dispersed uppers you see, but again, until I sit down and fiddle with this issue, I don't really have a vision in mind. So, if anyone has suggestions on how to improve that aspect of the kitchen, I'm wide open here with no ideas of my own.

If you care at all, consider removing the middle cabinet that looks lonely next to the big hood vent. That might give the opportunity for a bigger window and would draw the attention to the hood and window.

It is kind of lonely, isn't it? I might just junk that sore thumb and incorporate some kind of small shelves into the exhaust hood, or maybe not. Shrug.

I like the DW directly next to the sink because I can avoid dripping that way.

In the previous design I did have the dishwasher next to the sink, but now that I've elevated the dishwasher that puts a vertical wall right beside the sink and thus I've lost the countertop right next to the sink. Having the elevated DW right next to the sink is a big negative for me, so the solution to gain more countertop adjacent to the sink was to slide the DW over a bit. Compromise, compromise, compromise.

The double ovens look like they could be placed next to your fridge/freezer set up

It's funny that you mention that. As I transitioned from the earlier design to this one, placing the ovens on an angle where the fridge currently sits was the very first thing that I did. See here:

The result though was an entire wall of countertop (where the oven/microwave currently sits) which became superfluous - removed from all of my work zones. This way the counters and adjacent cabinets can support oven-related activities.

. . . but that depends on if you were using those to create a visual barrier into that space or not.

That's a follow-on effect of the purpose mentioned above. Then making lemonade from lemons, I found it easy to place in the bookshelf against the oven cabinet wall, thus adding an aesthetic effect.

ekpennell,

BTW what program did you use to create the plan? Do you like the program?

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm using Chief Architect and I like the program very much, though it has a steep learning curve but there are also plenty of video tutorials offered. If you get the program you need to set aside some time to get up to speed. The company does offer consumer grade variations which are not as powerful, but have a shallower learning curve and are very affordable.

Just my personal opinion.

Please feel free to disregard, and certainly do not take any offense, as none is intended.

I have a strong dislike for the angles on this layout.
I find it very....un-calming.

While theoretically it satisfies many of your objectives, to me it doesn't seem homey or relaxing. It reminds me of a commercial space.

This is just my opinion, but I just gotta say I get a very strong negative reaction to it on a non-logical level.

I could not live in this space.

Juliekcmo,

I have a strong dislike for the angles on this layout.
I find it very....un-calming.

I'm not offended :) I find it interesting to know other people's impressions because they always give me something to think about and many times open my eyes to new ways of seeing things.

On this issue, I wondering whether your impression arises from the plan being presented offset by 45 degrees but not from the actual renderings, for the kitchen is basically a square room except for the oven wall.

The funny thing about reorienting the kitchen by 45 degrees was the ripple effect through the remainder of the house - I had to reorient the dining room which now allows me to bring in Easterly, Southerly and Westerly light and it brought a geometric unity to the plan which ties together an angled entry with the angled dining room. The entry orientation was bothering me because it stuck out oddly, but the dining room reorientation fixes that problem nicely.

What I like about this reorientation is that I feel that it removes the boxy effect of rooms stacked next to each other and allows one room to gradually transition into the adjacent room - kitchen slides into hallway and into DR, DR slides into LR, LR slides into foyer, and so on down the line. Because I know Jack about design principles, the reorientation of the kitchen and the follow-on effects were a total surprise to me.

I should add that I've been able to do away with corner cabinets and Lazy Susan's. That's a nice bonus for me because I hate those damn corner cabinets.

In the floorplan, the distance between the main sink and the stove doesn't bother me, but they look close in the rendering. Just noting that. I don't think it's reason not to use this plan.

The stove column does seem to be the sticking point. I note your comment that if you were to move the microwave oven, you couldn't justify the full height cabinet for just the wall oven. Do you actually prefer a wall oven? If so, then it seems you've justified it :) Otherwise, consider making the wall oven into an undercabinet oven. Can you move the microwave into the island? The sink in the island is not needed for stove (you have the primary sink for that), so isn't it needed for the baking zone? If so, I would situate it closer to that corner.

While the baking zone is lovely, it's also so far away from the rest of the kitchen. I don't know if you bake bread and pies (lots of elbow room is more important than easy access) or if you bake casseroles (in which case the distance from ingredients would be bothersome).

I don't have suggestions - sorry. I love the thought you've put into all of your plans, so know your choices will work because you understand the tradeoffs you are making.

I am very concerned about the small distance (20") between the sink and the cooktop. This is likely where a lot of your prep will take place (island or no). To make matters worse, you only have 19" at counter height on the other side of the sink. Although I like the idea of a raised DW for the age-in-place reasons, my feeling that is only if you can afford to lose the counter space. I don't think you can in this kitchen.

If it were me, I would straighten out the angled corner to the left of the cooktop and scootch the cooktop to the left a little, and I would put the DW at counter height and scootch the sink the right a little. This should buy you the necessary room between sink and cooktop.

what motorcycle, rowing machine or exercise machine is in the bottom right hand corner of the floor plan?

Without seeing a bit more floor, and knowing the surroundings to get a feel for the context, it is hard to know if the peninsula is just right or could be improved.

The island could be improved.

The banquette is in a corner. The only access is through the kitchen. Each aisle appears to be equally likely to be blocked, although the aisles are wide enough for two people to pass easily. The banquette looks too big for its real function.

Other points raised so far are valid.

Angie DIY,

I am very concerned about the small distance (20") between the sink and the cooktop. This is likely where a lot of your prep will take place (island or no).

Have you been spying on me? :) That's exactly how I cook right now.

So, I flipped the positions of the cooktop and the spice drawer. On the sink side, I have room with my bathtub sink to bring it down to more common dimensions (Hi Davidro1) so between these two modification, the countertop between the cooktop and the sink is now a clear 33" span and the upper cabinet has expanded to 24" and the counter to the right of the sink is now 22" and the counter over the raised DW remaining at 24".

twodogs_sd,

Do you actually prefer a wall oven?

I actually prefer a range for the economic value and no loss of function, however, with a cooktop + oven combination, I could change the cabinets under a cooktop and get a wheelchair under it. With a wall oven I can set it to whatever height I may find convenient if my living circumstances change.

Here's the real reason I'm going with a cooktop - I want an induction wok and it looks very odd to stick an induction wok into a countertop next to a range. The exhaust hood would have to cover both but the symmetry of a range being offcenter under the hood would bother me every time I walked into that kitchen.

So, in the plan when you see an induction cooktop spanning 36" that should be read as a "smaller" induction cooktop right next to an induction wok.

The baking zone is mainly for bread, pizza, pastries, cookies, so access to fridge on one side, ingredients in near vicinity and access to the oven on the other side plus access to a wood fired oven in the DR/FR section makes the front of the kitchen the ideal placement for the baking zone and these activities can stand apart from the principal work triangle. As to the sink, I'm trying to find a compromise between island usage and bake zone usage. I'm inclined to believe that reaching forward on the island in order to clean or use water is going to be more natural than reaching backwards towards the main sink, besides a reach backwards introduces drippage on the floor whereas a reach forward can take place overtop of the counter. However, no drippage to the main sink introduces possibility of drippage between island and bake zone, however I'm always washing my hands when I'm dealing with meat and less frequently so when I'm working with dough, so unless I go with 3 sinks (no way!!!) then I need to find a compromise and I think that this works best for now (unless I change plans again.)

I certainly could move the microwave but I need to wrap my head around the oven issue and see how I respond to that effect or whether I can modify the plan in some other way.

Thanks to both of you for catching such small details, right down to cabinet width. Everyone is helping me immeasurably.

davidro1,

what motorcycle, rowing machine or exercise machine is in the bottom right hand corner of the floor plan?

What I've been doing in my current place is grinding my own wheat every few days while getting my morning exercise - I've hooked up the exercise machine to the grain mill. I love that arrangement and incorporating this into my design has been a must have through all of my design iterations. Call me quirky. So, with the machine placement there I can rig a motor in one of the cabinets and then I'll have the option of using muscle power or machine power depending on my mood.

The island could be improved.

Leave 'em wanting more, that's the idea, right?

Here's what I've changed since I put up the plan in the OP. The island cabinets facing the sink now have a top double drawer for kitchen knives. Underneath are two big drawers for recycling bins. On the side facing the baking zone all the drawers are gone and replaced by two doors, behind which I'll have a canned goods dispenser. Further improvements are welcome.

The banquette is in a corner. The only access is through the kitchen. Each aisle appears to be equally likely to be blocked, although the aisles are wide enough for two people to pass easily. The banquette looks too big for its real function.

I want the banquette on that wall and I want it removed from the DR/LR for if the banquette is next to the DR, then why bother having it at all. That said the only way to access the banquette must be through the kitchen. There are two paths and I'll only be using one zone at a time when someone else visiting me might want to travel to the banquette.

The banquette is large, but I want a large table on which I can spread out my work in the morning, so in this regard it's overkill for being a place to put down a cup of coffee, a bowl of cereal or a plate of bacon and eggs and same for dinner but that's not its only function - it's primary function is to give me a comfortable place to sprawl out in the morning, to be close to the outdoors when I'm eating or just sitting there, to allow me to enjoy the sunrise as I begin my day and then to linger for a bit as I take care of some work on my computer. Sitting on a barstool and leaning onto an Island just doesn't have the same appeal to me. I could make do with a TV tray in the living room for my own needs with respect to eating, but this table is for more than just holding up plates and glasses during meal times.

I really liked your last plan. I would have just added another window on the other side of the range. I liked it before the double oven was added...I think I would have put in a bigger range and maybe an extra oven (under counter) in the baking area :)

No viable layout suggestions, but I just want to say: the way you wax poetic about your banquette makes me wonder whether I should have designed one! In truth, I loathe banquettes (I think), but the way you describe things, I wonder if I've been hasty... ;)

Julie mentions an institutional feel, but I recall you mentioning having spent much time cooking in restaurants at some point -- perhaps this is not unrelated. Perhaps this feel is precisely comforting? (I've no feelings myself about this either way, just linking the observations).

OK, I feel I should try to say something of value. This comment will depend on your personal cooking habits/style: for me, there would not be adequate landing space near the fridge. I think I would find that one angled counter too little, too far away. And then there's all that butchered meat to put up ... maybe if you had a wheeled cart for hauling it back and forth? Maybe the reach back to the island is OK for you ... something to think about.

OK, more details on the emotional reaction I am haviang.

There is no sight line sitting at the table into any other spaces.

The angles remind me of a hospital waiting room reception desk area.

The whole spaces gives me a panicky feeling, as though I am caught with no way to escape. The room makes me feel trapped and unsettled.

Have you been spying on me? :) That's exactly how I cook right now.

You and everyone else!

...between these two modification, the countertop between the cooktop and the sink is now a clear 33" span

33" should be adequate. I think the NKBA guidelines would suggest a bit more, but I think 33" is okay. I had 21" in my old kitchen and it drove me batty.

I have linked a particularly nice version of the NKBA guidelines. Rules 12, 17, and 24 are the most pertinent here.

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA recommendations illustrated

alex, the island can be tweaked after the wall-bound cabinets are tweaked. More later. One step at a time. Sequentially.

Ok, I'm back again, still going on about the oven placement. I cooked a meal last night that would have been challenging for you in your space. I merely made spaghetti (on the stove) and threw in garlic bread (in the oven), started with a salad (from the refrigerator). Collecting and managing these things would have required navigating the entire circumference of your kitchen.

Only you know if that sort of prep/meal would be common or an aberration, but I am increasingly bugged by how far away your ovens are from the rest of your space.

I am a fan of a traditional range, at least in part because that meal combination is common for me (something on the stove and something in the oven).

So, let me throw another suggestion at you. What if you retained the wall oven in the baking zone, but instead of a microwave, switched up to a microwave convection oven (something that can somewhat function as a traditional oven), and place that micro/conv oven closer to your stove (again, I am thinking in the island).

I also recommend that you plan for the common/everyday tasks. In other words, meal preparation is likely to be an everyday occurrence, so it should be the most well-planned. I think it fantastic that you've planned out your baking zone and butcher zone, but don't make those convenient at the expense of a more mundane activity (like preparing coffee - my personal bugaboo), unless you do them every day.

I had a thought that strays yet again from this floorplan (probably is closer to your previous floorplan). There are certain tasks that I would assume to be high-mess, high-effort, focused tasks: canning, butchering, possibly baking. There was a thread previously about 'back' kitchens. In a way, your effort lends itself well to this concept. I'm thinking of something where this space is possibly closed off, may even be outfitted in different materials (easy-to-clean tile, washable walls, butcherblock, deep almost laundry sink), in which you can locate the materials and the effort around these focused activities. Even if you had to borrow space from your public kitchen, I think you have the room, and it might help you consider how to make the space easier to navigate.

I don't have much experience in butcher activities, but I've watched my grandmother can large quantities. Things that would be useful: a large countertop to house the jars you've taken out, perhaps open shelving on the wall to house jars to cool. Do you store the canned goods once done in the basement? Heck, I know you've got some engineering inclinations. Wouldn't it be awesome if you could engineer a dumbwaiter to move the jars from your canning station to the basement?

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread about back kitchens

I don't know why you have the ovens and range top separated by the barrier island. This makes the plan a non-starter for me. I want my cooking zones to be contiguous as I often use both range and oven for the same recipe in the same meal in the the same pot.

The separated wall-oven thing is very common on this forum, but to me it's not a desirable feature, but a functional failure. Sometimes it can't be helped but you are starting from scratch, so don't design-in someone else's regretable compromise.

Is there any reason you don't want to have a range with at least one oven underneath? If you used that oven for non-baking purposes, then it would also be under your vent hood. That way the steam, grease and smoke from roasting and broiling would be easily vented out of the kitchen. If you're set on having a second oven, and a dedicated baking area, then have a single one there. It's not often you move a bread or pastry-type baked thing from stove top to oven so you wouldn't be carrying those hot pots across the width of the kitchen.

I realize this is a minority opinion and I've almost stopped making this comment since it seems to be so unpopular. But, truly, ovens more than a step or two from your cooking surface are a poor (IMHO) choice. Doesn't anyone use their oven to keep stuff warm while finishing up a dish - like pancakes for the whole family? How many recipes start with, "Turn the oven to ..." and then go on to describe a dish that starts with cooking on the range top and finishes in the oven? Maybe it's because I live in cold climate and braises, stews, casseroles, pot and sear roasts are common fare here. Those start with substantial browning or cooking on the range and finish in the oven. No way do I want to be toting a heavy, hot, Le Creuset oval Dutch oven 10- 15 feet across the room. I want to open the door below the burners and pop it in.

HTH,

L.

L --- I don't think I've ever cooked something that uses the cooktop and oven for the same dish.... and I don't use the oven to keep anything warm.

Not discrediting your point..... everyone is different in how they cook or what they prepare. My ovens aren't that far away, but they could be without me making any regrettable compromise...

I only see one garbage can area and that is under the clean-up sink. I can see needing another one either by the baking area or by the prep sink. If you will be doing your prep work in your newly planned bigger area between the range and the sink then I would put one by the baking area. When you have company and someone brings something that needs to be worked on the area by the ovens is a good place for that to happen. You don't have enough room by the clean-up sink for more than one cook.

I would need roller blades to work in this kitchen. Many of my dinners (even just for the family) use the stove, the oven and microwave all at the same time (never mind the barbecue) so we also require quick access to the patio.

I clean up as I go and I suspect that with your limited counter space in your prep area you will be as well which means quick but constant opening and closing of the DW which causes a problem for getting in and out of the banquette area.

What about - (unfortunately I'm not smart enough to draw on the computer)

-put the cleanup sink on the other side, under the other window with the DW on the peninsula side of the sink (to the right) - you might have to change the angle of the peninsula slightly depending on the size of that big sink.

-oven stack gets put where the DW currently is, leave the stove where you have it planned.

-put a smaller prep sink where you currently have the big clean up sink, having a smaller prep sink gives you some much needed counter space on that wall, you can leave the window big as you want. Don't forget we spend more time prepping than doing dishes.

-fridge stays where it is.

-island becomes the baking area.

Any way, just thoughts that may not make sense or may not work for you.

I agree with you, Liri...

AlexHouse, all the points you have made are good. Example: The corners are better when they are not lazy susans. Another example: the banquette makes sense.

The other points raised above are all good too. To handle them all in one fell swoop, I suggest you think about another (new roofline) plan, in which you "linearize" the kitchen. Right now it's "square-ized". Making it more linear lets you put the island (if there will be an island) somewhere more off-center and not smack dab centered. The linear (straighter) path to the banquette will make more sense for flow too. If you had to use the same exterior walls as shown above, I would reduce the peninsula a lot and make the island bigger and more triangular or kidney bean shaped. In the lower left hand corner you have closets, which can be built differently. Ovens could go there...

lavender lass,

I really liked your last plan

I liked it too. What I'm doing is exploring right now to see if there is some better way that I haven't found yet. Cheaper to do this in planning than after construction begins.

Aliris19,

Julie mentions an institutional feel, but I recall you mentioning having spent much time cooking in restaurants at some point -- perhaps this is not unrelated.

The institutional feeling that Julie is getting is a vibe that I'm not getting. Earlier in the year I started a thread asking for sources of inspiration pictures. I've spent countless hours on Houzz and most every single kitchen there leaves me feeling cold (not every one, but most) because they feel like aircraft hangers, they feel like showcase living rooms with plastic coverings over the furniture, etc - I just can't see myself USING those kitchens.

Some people like the feeling of a kitchen which has very fuzzy boundaries - I don't. I like to feel encircled by a kitchen - that a few steps from the center and I'm at a place where there is something useful to do. I don't want to take a few steps from the center and feel that I'm in a space that is just creating volume for effect. Maybe this is related to being a flunky in the kitchen of a master chef when I was barely a teenager. I don't know anything about institutional kitchen design but I'd imagine that wasted space is frowned up whereas in a residential kitchen people will pay to create volume in the house just for the aesthetic effect.

Angie DIY,

Thanks for the link. Duly bookmarked.

juliekcmo,

There is no sight line sitting at the table into any other spaces.

When sitting at the table you are literally only a foot away from expansive windows which give fantastic sightlines to majestic mountains and forests. By putting the banquette on that East wall, my intent is to get as close to the outdoors as I possibly can.

Views to other rooms, take a look at the 2nd rendering which shows a clear shot down the left of the photo to part of the LR. That mass of drywall just in front of the kitchen entrance is a placeholder for a fireplace so the sightlines there won't be as obstructed as they currently are.

The angles remind me of a hospital waiting room reception desk area.

The kitchen is basically a square room with one angled wall. The angled cabinet by the fridge has a 28" diagonal face. A diagonal corner cabinet in a 24" deep cabinet run has an 18" diagonal face.

The whole spaces gives me a panicky feeling, as though I am caught with no way to escape. The room makes me feel trapped and unsettled.

I'm not trying to talk you out of this reaction, I'm simply trying to determine if it is a result of the orientation of the plan I posted. If I tilt the plan 45 degrees, then the room looks like a square instead of diamond and the Oven Wall has the one angle. Does your reaction change?

twodogs_sd,

I am a fan of a traditional range,

So was I a week ago when I uploaded my first layout.

Is there any reason you don't want to have a range with at least one oven underneath?

As noted above, I want a built-in induction wok. I can't find a range which incorporates this feature. Placing one on the counter next to a range and then centering the range hood overtop of both will seriously screw with the symmetry from the elevation viewpoint - the range will be off center underneath the range hood.

(easy-to-clean tile, washable walls, butcherblock, deep almost laundry sink)

The back kitchen idea is interesting but seems wasteful of space to me. As to the above quote, I don't need washable walls and easy clean tile. I'm not taking apart a freshly gutted animal in my kitchen. I'm taking apart larger cuts of meat - so I won't be using a meat bandsaw, I won't have carcasses hanging off of hooks, etc. If my friend gives me a 80 lb halibut he caught and gutted, or a pig's hind quarter, I simply want to have room to take it apart. I'm tired of making my own sausage and salami in cramped quarters - I want to grind cut the meat, then grind it, then stuff it, all in one place.

Things that would be useful: a large countertop to house the jars you've taken out, perhaps open shelving on the wall to house jars to cool.

Hence the baking peninsula, the island, the banquette table and counter next to the oven.

Do you store the canned goods once done in the basement?

The principal reason that I'm not planning for a pantry is that I have ample storage in the basement, PLUS there will be a separate concrete root cellar with a built in SMALL cheese cave and salami hanging room where I can store even more canned goods. I'm doing this stuff right now but I'm not working with optimal conditions so this house is my attempt to "get it right." For me, enjoyment comes not just from eating but from creating.

liriodendron,

I don't know why you have the ovens and range top separated by the barrier island.

In my OP to the post I made last week I stated one of my design goals was to avoid a barrier island. I did achieve that goal but the result created different drawbacks.

As to barrier islands, are there any other kind? If a designer puts fridge, stove, oven, sink, and microwave on one side of an island, then what goes on the counters on the other side of the island? Back in Feb/Mar I posted a plan just like that and people noticed the utter uselessness of the cabinets on the other side of the island (not a barrier island thankfully) - with all the kitchen equipment on the other side of the island all we're really left with is possibly a bar sink to use for food prep but even then the food prepper still has to make trips to the fridge to get the food to prep, meaning that they have to cross the barrier.

I can't speak for anyone else, and this might simply be a reflection of my own ignorance or lack of imagination, but the way it looks to me, if someone wants a 4 walled kitchen that can be used fully and it includes an island, then some piece of equipment has to be placed away from the principal work triangle otherwise the counter on the side opposite the island is just there to look pretty. Again, this could simply be me talking out of ignorance because I haven't seen a well designed kitchen, so if anyone takes offense to this position please link up some show kitchens which work well and keep the work triangle all compact and on one side of an island.

lolauren,

My ovens aren't that far away, but they could be without me making any regrettable compromise...

In terms of stepping away from optimal, the oven placement is the least inconvenient option for me to chose. So I'm more on your page here than on liriodendron's. I'd love to implement her ideal but I'm just not having luck in making all of the ducks line up in a row - there's always something that is suboptimal in any kitchen I design.

blfenton,

-put the cleanup sink on the other side, under the other window with the DW on the peninsula side of the sink (to the right) - you might have to change the angle of the peninsula slightly depending on the size of that big sink.

See above comment about there always being something that is suboptimal. If I move the sink and place it under the other window, then I break up the work triangle near the fridge and cooktop.

I use the cooktop - big sink combination quite a bit. I like to throw all sorts of pans into the sink so having it near the cooktop is a key feature. I don't want to be walking across the kitchen with hot pans in order to put them into the sink.

I appreciate your suggestions because we can never know where a good idea may come from or what comment may give birth to a good idea.

Alex,
I think my reaction is a combination of the size of the space, and only 1 way out, along with not being able to see into other rooms from the kitchen. Maybe you can , and we just don't have that info.

I am a big proponent of the Sarah Susanka concept of wanting long visual lines of sight in a space. Adding both light and a feeling of ease.

I am also used to a kitchen that started life as a very small galley kitchen with 5 doors/doorways. It's now an expanded kitchen, but still has 4 doors or doorways in it; one going directly outside. Along with bay window and 2 other windows.

you sure are patient. You look at things from lots of viewpoints, and you express yourself well.

I think there's a way to optimize the banquette so you get both foreground views and big views. The bench could be shaped like "Ogival arches" instead of a semicircle. Then your window reveals even more since you will have eliminated the bulky seating in front of it.

I keep thinking.... if your views are that great and important to you, then make everything from the banquette to the hood... windows. Get rid of those couple cabinets and get some amazing views in there. In that sense, I don't like the double-ovens where they are because they block your ability to look outside while you are working...

That would also help make that space super inviting and comfortable to even the most claustrophobic visitors. ;)

...Just something to think about. Perhaps you really need the cabinet space, money is finite or..... *shrug* .... but all of that space being windows could be pretty amazing.

This may have been said, as I just skimmed (really fast) the above comments. But, I don't like your ovens next to the seating due to potential for burns and the heat it generates making sitting at the table uncomfortable.

I've been thinking long and hard about the many good critiques that have been shared in this thread and I've made a first pass at a modification. First the image and then the explanation:

The oven and the microwave have been relocated.

The oven is now under the cooktop. I feel like an idiot for basically replicating a range, paying double the money for the same functionality, but that cursed wok on the cooktop is going to cost me a pretty penny - cooktop + wok + oven instead of just range + wok.

I also lose the flexibility of having a kitchen that's workable for someone is a wheelchair but if that fate ever befalls me I can simply move the oven back to the original location in the wall cabinet, lower the cooktop and sink and then I've got a working kitchen that's good for a disabled person. The design can be modified without too much trouble if the need ever arises.

So, now that the oven is underneath the cooktop all of the pots that I wanted handy for cooking had to find a new home. They're now in the island where the recycling drawers were. That was easy. They're still handy, behind me instead of below the cooktop.

The microwave is now immediately below the countertop in the peninsula with enough space to have a cabinet drawer underneath the microwave. This is a pretty handy place for the MW because it's right across the aisle from the fridge and just a step more removed from the cooktop/oven. Now as I enter the kitchen I can grab something from the fridge, pop it into the MW, and then I can proceed to the banquette or take the food out of the kitchen.

All of the bulk grains and baking supplies are now relocated between the microwave and the wall cabinet which used to house the MW/Oven combo.

The side of the island facing the peninsula now has a top drawer and 4 vertical drawers underneath which will hold all manner of baking sheets/pans. The sheets are close to the bake prep area and they don't need to be close to the oven - I will transport what needs to be baked either to the oven or to the wood fired pizza oven.

The wall cabinet now stores two recycling bins, canned food, less frequently used baking equipment, and other odds and ends.

My fear was having a useless section of counter/cabinets attached to the peninsula, but as I thought about how the space would be used, it can still function as a secondary prep zone but with the secondary sink on the island, it functions well as the bake zone and all the equipment is close at hand.

The suboptimal aspect that arises from this new layout has to do with recycling and garbage disposal - it's now a walk to get rid of stuff. Similarly, if I want canned good or boxed goods, it's a walk from the cooking area to this storage area. However, these inconveniences are not as mission critical as the impracticalities of the original plan - the use of the oven and microwave in the old layout were more of a burden than the need to get canned goods or to dispose of recyclables.

Here's the exit question for everyone (besides anything new that you can find to comment upon):

What are the inconveniences of having a microwave underneath a counter? I'm used to using microwaves either at counter level or in the upper cabinets.

there will be a separate concrete root cellar with a built in SMALL cheese cave and salami hanging room

Can I move in? Pretty please!?!?

What are the inconveniences of having a microwave underneath a counter? I'm used to using microwaves either at counter level or in the upper cabinets.

I went with a drawer microwave. For a conventional MW, I think countertop is best, but that eats up counterspace. If it is in an upper, you have to reach too high for our taste. If a conventional MW is under the counter, you have to stoop to look in and to set the time, etc. A drawer MW can be operated from normal standing position, and you can open the drawer to, for example, stir a bowl of soup.

We have a normal MW under the counter because we were trying to save money - I can't wait for the thing to die so that I can get a MW drawer. I like having the MW under the counter, it just works well for us and it's in a peninsula such as yours but get the drawer type.

Alex, I have a Miele speed oven undercounter, which has a MW component and it gets used this way a fair amount. I have no problems at all with the undercounter location (for reference, my countertops are an inch higher than par at 37"). I'm sure this depends on your patience with stooping, but it's not much of a crouch. Ask me in 30 years...

Other speed ovens have undercounter issues having to do with heat and venting. The advantium, e.g., is not recommended or even, I think, warranteed for undercounter use. This is the reason we went with the more expensive Miele. I don't know whether there are such issues for a MW only -- probably not.

The configuration of ours has a drop down door not pull out drawer. It's not a problem for us; YMMV.

I had a thought in regard to a range vs range top and separate oven. I understand the issue with symmetry, and placing an induction wok to one side of the range under the hood. My thought… would an additional single induction hob be useful to you? I was picturing one to be used for a large canner, placed on the side of the range opposite the wok.
I am not a layout guru, lol, but I did prefer your previous layout. I admire the amount of thought you are putting into your planning, and look forward to seeing where you end up.

I haven't read the other posts so this may have already been mentioned, but my first thought when looking at your design was that it feels wrong to me to have to walk through the kitchen to get at the eating nook. I'd want to have a door going to some other part of the house almost right next to it. I'd also want two entrances into any kitchen, especially this size. I really dislike dead-end rooms, since they feel very closed in to me.

Anne

I haven't read the other posts so this may have already been mentioned, but my first thought when looking at your design was that it feels wrong to me to have to walk through the kitchen to get at the eating nook. I'd want to have a door going to some other part of the house almost right next to it. I'd also want two entrances into any kitchen, especially this size. I really dislike dead-end rooms, since they feel very closed in to me.

Anne

starinasgarden,

My thought… would an additional single induction hob be useful to you? I was picturing one to be used for a large canner, placed on the side of the range opposite the wok.

That is a brilliant suggestion. I was planning on HAVING to do my canning in an outside kitchen but now with your suggestion you've saved me money and you've opened up more options for me with regard to canning locations. Now I have to figure out a way to get more counterspace.

As to the other layout, here's what I found from this experience - even when I work everything out with respect to a layout for a room, that room volume has an effect on the 2nd floor and on the roof lines and sometimes issues which develop downstream force me to either compromise on what I thought was already settled or to abandon the effort and rethink from scratch.

However, along the way I keep a tight hold on the good ideas that were developed from the earlier design process and so, I believe, each iteration of the layout process stands on the shoulders of the one that preceded it.

jimandanne_mi ,

. . . was that it feels wrong to me to have to walk through the kitchen to get at the eating nook. I'd want to have a door going to some other part of the house almost right next to it. I'd also want two entrances into any kitchen, especially this size. I really dislike dead-end rooms, since they feel very closed in to me.

The house's East-West axis is long so as to present a longer wall on the South. Secondly I want the banquette adjacent to the windows so that pretty much requires its placement alongside a wall rather than buried within the kitchen. Thirdly, I don't want the banquette near the front of the kitchen because then it's near the dining room and really, what's the point of having two seated eating areas right next to each other?

The closed in feeling is precisely what I like - I have that in my present workshop with equipment along every wall and something to do everywhere. I have that in my office. I read quite often here of people designing a kitchen so that when they are performing tasks in the kitchen and the rest of the family is in the family room/living room, that the design enable them to feel connected to what is going on in the rest of the house and this usually means a blending of the two rooms, an openness, an orientation of the sink so that it faces the family room, appliance placement and counter placement with an eye towards orienting the cook so that their back is not turned on the family in the other room. I don't give a hoot about those issues at all and I believe that what you see as a closed in feeling is my attempt to make the design task-centric - I want to be focusing on issues inside the kitchen rather than splitting my attention between kitchen and activities outside of the kitchen.

From where I'm standing, design follows purpose and there seem to be at least two, and possibly more, visions of how kitchens should be purposed. I'm pretty much following a kitchen-centric vision with no regard for tying those activities into whatever else might be happening in the house unless of course a tie-in develops by accident of design, in which case I accept it as a bonus.

Alexhouse

In response to your comment about how is it possible to have a kitchen triangle in quadrilinear room with island and not wind up with a barrier island: lose the idea of a kitchen triangle. It was meant for simpler, often U-shaped, island-free kitchens of previous years.

I agree, the geometry of island, square and triangle doesn't work. So move one of the three "essentials" out of the equation. The logical one is the clean-up sink, as long as you have a prep sink in prep zone and give the clean-up sink, which is a distinct and separable work zone, a location of its own.

This leaves you a two-point axis: food storage (fridge & pantry) to cooking arena (burners and ovens) with a pause or zig out to the prep sink embedded in the prep zone between the storage and cooking zones.

I often describe my study of kitchen designs as following the food pathways: storage (F & P)> prep area (with access to water) > cooking zone (burners and ovens)> plating area (ideally with dish storage -for plated-food dishes, e.g. notcups and saucers storage at hand) > to eating area > back to dish and leftover return to kitchen > clean-up area etc.

I think if you concentrate on this pathway and avoid a plan where you have to backtrack or cross zones, you will have achieved the most efficient and functional kitchen design. At that point you can populate it with all the want-to-have features and cab contents' placements with far less trouble.

Right now your plan has the clean-up zone stuck smack in the prep area and the ovens parked out of the cooking zone. Untangle that and you'll start to have a solution.

HTH

L.