I believe that you are correct in thinking that she doesn't know what she's thinking about. The "boards on the outside" are doors or drawers. Depending on the door style, this can be a slab of solid wood, or veneer. This also depends the brand of cabinet. I think she may be generalizing one manufacturer she knows with every single frameless cabinet. Yes, you might be able to get the look you like with framed, but you still lose space over frameless.

Boxes for framed cabinetry are usually either ply or particleboard with only the frames, door and drawer fronts made from "real" wood. Particleboard is more common and may be more desirable for frameless box construction but many companies will still upgrade to plywood on the boxes just leaving the doors an drawer fronts as "real" wood. "Real" wood would not be desirable for box construction. What manufacturer are you using?

I'm getting frameless and it is all wood construction, no particle board. When she says you can get the same look with framed she is probably talking about full overlay doors.

Full overlay looks almost identical to frameless - she's right but you don't gain the functionality. Here in Canada framed cabinetry is becoming prety obsolete (for example Thomasville actually makes a frameless product for Canadian HD's rather than selling the framed version sold in the US).

She said the only reason to do that would be to get the European look or if you need more space.
Yeah... what better reason is there? More space AND better accessibility. In fact, the better way to say it is that the only reason to get framed is for the look. If you want the frame to show between the doors, or if you wanted inset doors, then you would need to get framed. Otherwise, it would make more sense to get frameless. You lose space, especially in drawers, and limit accessibility by going with framed over frameless.

As for the statement that they are not made of "real wood", that's just plain silly. Does she sell a line of frameless cabs? Stores that do not offer frameless tend to badmouth them in order to make their product look better. I experienced this first hand. As fairegold (a former poster) used to say, don't expect the Chevrolet dealer to tout the advantages of buying a Ford.

Here is a link that might be useful: Framed and Frameless differences explained, plus list of mfg websites

I am at the point where I don't trust anyone but the people on this forum! It's really sad that I'm paying the KD big bucks to lead me in the wrong direction. I'm gonna go cry in my cornflakes now because I've already given her a big downpayment.

What I REALLY want to do is inset, but everyone and their mother keeps talking me out of it. (cost and space, and honestly, I think this KD doesn't know how to design it) We will not be buying cabinets from her- she is just for design. I hope this will be our "forever home"....should I just go for the inset?

"What I REALLY want to do is inset, but everyone and their mother keeps talking me out of it. (cost and space"

If I recall, your kitchen has a lot of cabinet space, doesn't it? From reading here, the frameless=space argument applies more to those who are trying to maximize limited space in a smaller kitchen. Like me. I am getting frameless for a galley kitchen that measures 11x9...I do need every inch!

As for frameless not being made of wood, I can tell you that isn't true. I have an entire room full of frameless cabinets waiting to be installed that are all wood. Boxes and frames are 3/4" plywood and doors are painted maple. So, your designer is wrong on that too. I've linked to the cabinet construction page from the company website so you can see what wood construction looks like.

Good luck, and keep using the forum. I agree with you, this site and these generous people are a treasure! You won't get better feedback, war stories and suggestions anywhere.

Here is a link that might be useful: Executive Cabinetry - Wood Construction

If you want to get technical, plywood isn't "real wood" either. After all, it isn't "solid boards" hacked from a tree, right?

This myth that lumber products produced from partial bits of wood isn't "real wood" just won't die. Partical board comes in all manner of quality levels and can use any number of types of glues. There's a world of difference between a Chevy Cobalt and a Corvette, but they're both Chevy's, right, so none of them could possibly be of equal quality with any of the European car makers.....

Most partical board used for cabinetry is produced under around 40-60 pounds of pressure per square inch. Those "decorator tables" sold at WallyWorld that will disentegrate if you set a single sweaty cold drink on them are produced with around 14 pounds of pressure per square inch. But, because they're both "partical board", everyone assumes that the cabinets must be junk. Nothing could be further from the truth. Quality cabinets use furniture board grade, which is 99% functionally equivalent to everything plywood is, and is a greener product because it uses up waste products from the lumber industry. There are 2 areas where plywood is slightly ahead of plywood, and that is in deflection, meaning that partical board cannot span as long a distance in shelving as plywood can, but any size up to 36" is fine. ANd plywood has slightly better gripping power for the hinge hardware. That's a very slight advantage, and both plywood and partical board boxes have been known to have hinges come out if they were abused. Under regular everyday wear and tear, you won't be able to tell a difference at all. Both will meet KCMA wear guidelines if the proper hardware and construction methods for each type of construction is used.

Now, the biggest difference between plywood and partical board cabinet construction is in the weight. The "real wood" one is more solid, right? Heavier? NOPE! Plywood boxes are a lot lighter than partical board, and that's the #1 reason installers prefer them. It makes it easier on them to do the install. Well, it's not their kitchen, so get what you prefer.

If you want to save 15-20% as well as save more of the planet with a greener choice, you'll choose partical board. It's what I chose for my own personal kitchen, as the "benefits" that I got for that 20% were not tangible enough that I felt it was worth it. Now when was the last time anyone who sells something tried to talk someone out of an "upgrade"? LOL!

Don't buy into the wood snob myth without fully informing yourself and weighing the pros and cons for yourself.

--
it is also possible to do inset with frameless cabinets.

that is one subject.
another is the "real" adjective applied to various levels of wood products.
that is worth a lot of laughs, later, when you look back at it all.
so you can laugh now instead of waiting until later.

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3rd subject: expertise.

spider96, these "KD" experts are not experts in the way we often assume an expert should be.
Most of these people are advisors with blind spots.
Hired Hands.
Or, commissioned agents.
Or, commission-seeking brokers, playing favorites.
Or, independents with some experience, some knowledge, some ability...
(But no clear way for you to ascertain.)
(And they might have a lot of skill in one way or another.)

This KD field is still a long way away from being a profession.

In a profession, they share a large Body Of Knowledge, common to the entire "profession".
They share continuing training education and communication amongst themselves.
There are limits that prevent one from commenting outside one's profession.
I've seen KD's here in GW who make serious mistakes when they comment beyond their knowledge level.
(Examples available upon request.)

Oh, yes, there are some kitchen association norms, but...

My advice is that you "would be well advised" to learn how to spot their blind spots within ten minutes.
Soon you will be able to do this over the phone so you won't waste their time having them come to your place.
Any other approach is an unrealistic expectation at the outset.
Then any spending money on any service can be seen as a waste of time.
Or, whatever money and time you spend, lay out, or lose, can be seen as an inexpensive education.

More about this later, if you wish.
--

I already wrote about my paying a lot of people for their time before I got to the stage where I knew enough to control the interaction.
I am now able to "interview" someone in a way that is so friendly and positive that they feel happy about the outcome when their services are declined, and they even end up knowing why too. (So they actually learn something.)

--

The Fact that they tell you things that hurt your feelings and cause you to have conflicted emotions is just a low cost way to train you.
It happened to me a lot, before i got other strategies in my mind.

--

I've noticed that people who have had money all their lives are often good at evaluating the abilities, strengths and blind spots of any wannabee advisor of any kind.

--

My feeling is this:
The best people for you will be people you hire over the phone and with whom you communicate over the internet.
Local yokels won't cut it.

HTH

Don't freak out too much about the kd yet ... mine was fabulous, but I had to convince him to do soapstone, and he was also initially against inset. Everyone does have their own biases, it's impossible not to. But a good designer will also have an open mind to work with things they haven't used yet, too. That was the case with the soapstone and my kd. He loved it after we went and looked at it. And it ended up being my choice not to go with inset in the end.

But keep using this forum, because it does expose you to a lot more ... everything. Knowledge, experience, possibilities, all that stuff. One person -- even a pro -- isn't going to be able to know as much as this collective.

And hopefully your kd will learn some from you in the process! Mine did (well, from this forum indirectly through me). We looked at Crown Point for inset -- he had never heard of the company, but he submitted his drawings to them and worked with another designer there to get a bid. We didn't end up using them, but he was very impressed and I think plans on using CP some time in the future.

For those who prefer particle board, remember that it loses strength and substance when exposed to water, even faster than plywood does.

If it's going into a wet area, esp. under sink, you might consider special finish treatments (marine paint?), or perhaps spec out a different floor and sides material under sink.

Note what happened to my plywood sink cab very shortly after installation--installer says that he would have had to tear it out and redo the cab if it had been particle board.

Here is a link that might be useful: a week and a half of leaking pipes under new sink

Thanks everyone for all the info.

And David, I think it's too late....I'm pretty sure I've hired a local yokel. (by hired I mean she has a significant downpayment which makes it not worth "firing" her at this point) I'll see what she comes back with. I am so untrusting of anyone at this point, though. It's sad. My husband told me before I hired her that he didn't think I would be happy with anyone because my expectations are too high. Maybe he's right. I want an all knowing KD to take over and it's not gonna happen.

Like everyone said, you can get plywood or particle board boxes for both frameless and face frame. Pros and cons to both, which other threads discuss ad nauseam, so on that front a search will help. You can even mix them in the same cabinet line, using plywood boxes where water is a risk and particle board or MDF where the dimensionally stable aspect is important---once it's all installed you can't tell which are which.

Also check out specs for the individual cabinet companies or makers you're considering. Some inset cabinets lose less space than others, and it's mainly in the drawers---with doors the "lost" space is just the door opening, but you still have the space in the cabinet itself. With the company we're looking at, though, it works out to only an inch per cabinet versus their frameless line. (We're using frameless for lowers and framed for uppers and one bank of cabinets where we wanted things you couldn't get with frameless.)

The one thing I would NOT do is full overlay designed to look like frameless. At that point---just get frameless! It's actually cheaper in my experience, as long as the cabinetmaker has done it before. (Encountered one or two that were more expensive because it was "new" for them---but that was a red flag in and of itself...)

Fire the KD, and use us instead :)
You dont need a KD when you have this forum.

More knowledge here than any one KD will ever have ;) We have carpenters, tilers, designers, painters, cooks, moms, dads, artists, complainers, lurkers, spammers, DIYers etc

I'm a complainer (from the above list). :)

If your KD has some decent design ideas, it's okay to keep using her since you're not getting cabinets from her. But double check everything.

I like inset quite a bit, but had to pass on them because they do wear a little harder than overlay doors. If someone doesn't get things in a drawer correctly and shuts it, or if large things crash on the way out of the drawer, the frame around the drawer can get beat up. In my house, this happens pretty often. An overlay drawer front will cover this up when closed.

It's design by committee here: bring in your plans and we'll get you all sorts of modifications for you KD. She'll earn that fee, even if it's just drawing up all the stuff you want to try out here. She might be really good at colors and stuff, too.

Just do NOT rush, and don't agree to anything else until you have passed inspection here. Your KD is not a "trust but verify". She's apparently more of a "be skeptical of but verify".

My guess is that your KD thought frameless cabinets = ultra modern European cabinets and by "on the outside", she did mean doors and drawer fronts.

To achieve and maintain those crisp lines in ultra modern cabinets, the material used has to be rigid and stable. Real wood is simply not a good choice.

For what it's worth, I'm just starting my own kitchen project. I met with a KD a couple of weeks ago and she dispelled some of the myths I had about framed cabinets.

She showed me a Schrock framed cabinet where the framing was so tight it was almost like a frameless cabinet. I think it was less than 1/4 inch on three sides and nothing along the bottom edge. To me this is adequate, because my current framed cabinets have about an inch and I hate them.

They also make framed cabinets without stiles too. So with full overlay doors, there is virtually no difference from frameless in terms of usefulness. I know that for me, framed or frameless is now a non-issue. Now I can just concentrate on my layout. What ever manufacturer can meet my criteria within my budget will be my choice.

If you want inset, get it, you said you are just using this person for design, right? Find a line of inset cabinets you like. I always see photos of them on the forum here.

Water resistance is going to depend on how good the melamine is used for the interior of your cabs. The melamine in my 1989 laminate covered particleboard frameless cabs from Kraftmaid, withstood a slow pipe leak in my sink cab for six months before I noticed anything.

The melamine bubbled up very slightly, about the size of a quarter. Nothing cracked or opened up to expose the substrate. 10 yrs later it's still just a slight bubble you can feel but barely see.

I put my dishes away wet. Nothing, but nothing, damages these interiors. When I went to look at the cab displays at the local Expo some 15 yrs later (remember them? HDepot's upscale stores), I was shocked at how poor the quality of the interior melamine was on even the expensive lines, like St. Charles.