Here's the old thread.

I like E better.

How are you expecting to use the butler's pantry? Is it all dish storage, as is traditional? Staging area for entertaining? Is it to get rid of any kind of buffet or other storage in the dining room that you rarely use? No matter what you think it's for, it's the way kids are coming into the kitchen from the mudroom. It seems to me that it might be an optimal place to put a snack center/beverage center, inc. microwave, which would also be a good place for setting up a bar (soft or hard) during a party.

You said: ...the pantry is huge. That's because 1# on DH's wish list is a huge pantry. He is a fantastic cook and has all sorts of cooking stuff that he wants to store in the pantry.

Why are you considering cluttering that up with the snack center?

Wherever you put the snack center, if you want dishes for use there, make sure they're very different from the ones you use in the breakfast room. For instance, Corelle for the microwave and stoneware for meals, mom's old kitchen stainless for snacking, the pretty new (different pattern) stuff for meals. If it's easy to tell apart then it's just a matter of walking all around the kitchen to put away the dishes, which really isn't that big a deal. If they're the same set of dishes, the wrong pieces will get put away in the wrong places and there won't be enough at each location and it'll just be a pain.

The best place for the coffee maker and toaster are at point of use. I.e., in or near the breakfast room.

Regarding "mini pantries", the pullouts by the stove are very useful. So is a place for bread/cereal/snacks. I also like to have my baking supplies in the baking area, but with the superhuge walk in pantry, maybe you prefer going in there. BTW, make sure in a pantry that size that you have a surface for putting things down on, and maybe even a cart (possibly folding, or fitting into the shelving) to move them around on.

I would not put my heavy small appliances in a super susan. That sounds like a very frustrating experience. A lower cabinet, ROTS (roll out tray shelf), drawer or appliance lift, is fine. I prefer to keep my KitchenAid on the counter, but I keep the Cuisinart in a drawer. Pots aren't bad on a super susan. Or mixing bowls. Something large, not too heavy, and easy to hold in one hand, is best.

Since you show a china cabinet, aren't you going to put the breakfast room china in it? Seems like the right place to me. Just put the clean dishes on the counter, walk around and put them in the cupboard. Simple.

The breakfast area isn't big enough for the size table and hutch shown on the plan. You should have aisles of about 4 feet on three sides of that table for people to be able to come and go. The side with the hutch might need to be deeper to be able to use the china when people are seated. If you don't think that will happen, the table still needs to be a minimum of 32" from the hutch.

Island seating takes a minimum of two feet each of counter edge for each person with 30" being comfortable for adults. In 7 feet, you will be able to have 3 stools only.

The small appliances like a Cuisinart would normally be used on the island and not the sides of the range - except for maybe an immersible blender. I have one long deep drawer that keeps those type of things and you can store lower use items - things like a crockpot or popcorn maker in the pantry.

The pantry needs a place to sit down grocery bags.

The prep sink on the island is too small - a 24" is good sized. Consider a trash or compost or both near the prep sink - would also be good for cleaning the ref out. Prep generates a surprising amount of packaging.

You might carefully reduce the aisle width between the range and the island - maybe to 42-26". The careful part is simply that aisle widths we talk about are measured counter to counter and a lot of cabinet diagrams are cabinet to cabinet. Counter to counter is normally 3" less - but when something like the big ol' range or a ref is there, try not to use less than 42" in front of the body of the appliance. Reducing the aisle will make the island a more effective prep area for a single person.

This is for your husband more than you. If he really likes the view, put prep on that counter. He will spend a lot more time doing prep and cooking than cleaning up.

The problem with the everyday dish cabinet is its a little too wide to be able to reach into the entire cabinet from the sides and particularly from the kitchen side. I have difficulty reaching all of a normal upper in a corner without doors on. The counter keeps you from being able to reach three feet away, you might be able to reach 18" of it, but I think it will be less because of needing to reach around the doors...

I love so many features of your new home, Mklee. As is, definitely prefer E. Except, sorry if it's been asked, but why a butler's pantry as designed at all? Is use of its end of the kitchen optimized? The hall and fridge (and any cabinetry that might be added on that end) provide a nice separation of kitchen from formal areas, so that very important function's pretty much negated.

Thanks once again. All of your advice has really helped me think through the details.

Plllog - I think you are right that the "butler's pantry" is the best place for beverage center and microwave. We were already toying the idea of putting a wine refrigerator there. I love the idea of setting up a bar area when entertaining.

Great tip re making sure that the dishes that are stored in different areas look different. The breakfast china cabinet really may be the best place for every day dishes. I'm getting the feeling that I may need to live in the kitchen for awhile to really figure out where everything should live.

I love the idea of a pantry cart! LOL.

bmorepanic - What do you think of the breakfast room size if I build banquette seating along the windows, but use the same size table and cabinet? Thanks for raising this point! I'd floated this idea before, but had not realized just how tight the spacing is. Now that you've brought it to my attention, it seems so obvious.

Great tips re cuisinart storage and prep sink size. Thanks.

Our aisle measurements are cabinet to cabinet. The counter overhang will be either 1.5 or 2 inches, so the aisle will actually be 3 to 4 inches narrower. Again, thanks for the aisle measurement advice. Really helpful.

You raise another great point about not being able to reach across the entire 3 foot counter. Hmmm....have to think about that one a bit.

Rosie - thanks for the compliment. Our designer suggested the "butler's pantry." I think that we will probably use it more as a beverage center/snack center as plllog suggested. As you kind people have pointed out, we don't really need a formal BP and the kid's will be running through it constantly.

Thanks again everyone! Your comments have been helpful.

Thanks once again. All of your advice has really helped me think through the details.

Plllog - I think you are right that the "butler's pantry" is the best place for beverage center and microwave. We were already toying the idea of putting a wine refrigerator there. I love the idea of setting up a bar area when entertaining.

Great tip re making sure that the dishes that are stored in different areas look different. The breakfast china cabinet really may be the best place for every day dishes. I'm getting the feeling that I may need to live in the kitchen for awhile to really figure out where everything should live.

I love the idea of a pantry cart! LOL.

bmorepanic - What do you think of the breakfast room size if I build banquette seating along the windows, but use the same size table and cabinet? Thanks for raising this point! I'd floated this idea before, but had not realized just how tight the spacing is. Now that you've brought it to my attention, it seems so obvious.

Great tips re cuisinart storage and prep sink size. Thanks.

Our aisle measurements are cabinet to cabinet. The counter overhang will be either 1.5 or 2 inches, so the aisle will actually be 3 to 4 inches narrower. Again, thanks for the aisle measurement advice. Really helpful.

You raise another great point about not being able to reach across the entire 3 foot counter. Hmmm....have to think about that one a bit.

Rosie - thanks for the compliment. Our designer suggested the "butler's pantry." I think that we will probably use it more as a beverage center/snack center as plllog suggested. As you kind people have pointed out, we don't really need a formal BP and the kid's will be running through it constantly.

Thanks again everyone! Your comments have been helpful.

I'll reinforce that while might not need a formal butler's pantry for your butler to stand in while he polishes the stemware, it does give you the staging area for service between the kitchen and dining room, and it is also a good connection between the kitchen and powder room, and kitchen and mudroom. That makes it less ideal for Grimes to do his work in, but good for house flow. And putting the wine in there makes it officially butlerish, since the traditional designation of the butler was the guy who was in charge of the bottles. :)

The things that I have learned on this forum! I think that the BP will be a handy little space. And who doesn't need more storage? You've painted a very nice picture, plllog. Alas, this will be one BP that must go sans the butler. Big Sigh. :-)

Watch Jeeves and Wooster. Jeeves makes do with very little space.

P.G. Wodehouse's da man.

I've been staring at your layout for quite a while and really can't figure out what to suggest. It seems like you have so much space, but the kitchen looks awkward to me. Personally, I wouldn't want the clean up sink on the peninsula looking over the breakfast room, but I'm not really sure where else to suggest moving it.

Butler's Pantry - if you really think kids are going to be running thru there, I'm not really sure if I would want it as my "snack center". Imagine when your kids are older and you and your DH are standing in there fixing coffee and bagels and the kids try to run through. Just seems like a small space to get those types of tasks done.

Dish storage-I agree with Bmore that the type of hutch you're talking about could be difficult to access. Also, if your dishes are near the sink, they are fairly far from frig, pantry and proposed "snack center". The easiest path is right between the prep sink and range, which could be an issue.

I also think you have a long walk with groceries from the garage, thru the mudroom, thru the butlers pantry into the kitchen. Depending on what you do with the pantry/laundry room space, you might want a door from the garage into one of those rooms so you have a straight shot with groceries.

This might be crazy, but I almost see a better space with 2 islands instead of that peninsula. Shrink the bigger island the 6' and then add a second island next to it that would house the clean up sink and DW. You could unload dishes into upper cabs and lower drawers on the back wall.It wouldd almost be like a galley kitchen with 2 islands. Or...you could do 1 really long island.

Another idea...does the pantry have to be on that side of the kitchen? If you moved it to the other side, eliminated the peninsula, closed up that pantry doorway, you would have more counter space(I think). You could move the range a little further towards the frig and get the clean up sink on the back wall.

I'm sorry if this is sounding negative. I'm really just trying to help. There's just something not working for me here. Any chance of widening the kitchen at all? I think the biggest issue is that you have very limited wall space. You only really have the back wall, which when you factor in the doorway for the pantry, there's not that much room there either.

First of all, I'm not a designer and probably have no business giving anyone advice. Second, as someone who has schlepped groceries through an obstacle course in our garage and then across a family room before tripping into the kitchen, I don't think the path through the mud room and butlers pantry is that bad. But, when my eye caught that stretch of wall against the garage in that glorious huge pantry I wondered if you could install a sort of "pass through" type door there. Most groceries would be going into the pantry or just around the corner into the frdge. It would have to be fire rated and I'm sure something could be designed that's lockable for security reasons if you need it.

I like so much of what you've put into your kitchen (yes, I have "Butler's Pantry Envy"). I'm sure you'll be able to tweak it to work the right way for your family.

mahlgold - No need to apologize for constructive criticism - I asked you for your opinion. The placement of the main sink and peninsula seems to be the biggest cause of concern. DH wants the sink to look out towards the nice part of the yard which is behind the breakfast room. My thinking was that if we didn't build the breakfast room and the main sink sat under a window, the layout would be fairly conventional. So is there a big difference in looking over an open peninsula and table to a wall of windows? It appears that many people think that there is. Thanks for your suggestions. I'm not sure that a double island would work for us. DH really wants a view of the yard from the sink. We had the pantry door on the other side of the kitchen at one point, but I was concerned about traffic through the cooking aisle with the pantry and refrigerator on opposite sides of the kitchen. So here we are again.

You raise a good point about not overcrowding the BP. Perhaps we'll have to put the toaster and coffee elsewhere to minimize traffic?

You and bmorepanic have convinced me that there is not enough space for the hutch and table in the breakfast room as is. However, I am hoping that banquette seating along the window walls might rectify that problem. I really love that table and china cabinet and want to try and make them work in the new house.

skitdel - I can commiserate with you re the long trip with the groceries. My family is living with my in-laws while we build the house. This morning, I hauled 10 grocery bags up 3 flights of stairs, along with an infant and a toddler. Talk about a long trek! At least I don't have to exercise today. But I think your pass through is an interesting idea. Thanks for the words of encouragement. I think we are getting closer with the design and the tips from GW have really helped.

This is an exploration of what Malhgold said. After completing it, I was looking and I think it would reverse fairly well, too. Somewhat, it make more sense to have the informal dining within sight of the family room and the kitchen off but itself and out of the traffic ways.

Because it's late and I spent my construction day cursing at the ref hut, and my brain hurts -- I'm suggesting exploring exchanging the breakfast and kitchen areas.

{{gwi:1929394}}

bmorepanic - when you have a minute, could you please repost your link? I'm interested to see it, but it's not coming up at the moment. Perhaps if you can spare a minute tomorrow to repost? Thanks for your time and effort.

How many people sit at daily meals? I know you were talking about entertaining in the breakfast room so will you be okay having all company in the dining room? Is it worth it to you to reorganize the kitchen design to accomodate a bigger breakfast room? Does the table have leaves? Can your daily seating fit on a smaller table?

Unlike B'more's picture, what I was thinking when I read the detach the sink and make it an island comment was to literally leave the peninsula but cut a path between it and the counter. What you could do in that case is have a washing up island facing the view, but push it back a foot to make it possible to circulate in the breakfast room. That only addresses width, but it also makes a path straight from the stove to the table. I have to admit that I wasn't really loving the wallness of the peninsula.

Have you tried a longer island with a large single sink and DW in it, instead of the peninsula? I get the view thing, but how much of washing up really allows you to look at the view anyway? Maybe a rolling butcher block that can make a portable prep station would be a better way to get a view? Something that could tuck into the end of the island?

Which is more important? The view from the sink or a big enough breakfast room?

Your refrigerator might be able to open in E, but not more than 90 degrees, which will prevent you from getting the drawers out easily for cleaning. My advice on your plan would be

1.Use E as a basic template. I don't like the laundry being connected through the kitchen. Have the pantry door start flush with the wall (like the laundry door in C). This would allow the refrigerator to stay in the same location with a tall cabinet to the right and would take away the door opening issue. You could even have the microwave in the new cabinet. A microwave between the fridge and pantry is great.

2. I would reconfigure your powder room to make it smaller and scoot the top wall of the butler's pantry up to get a little more room in there.

3. Take out the peninsula and lengthen the island. Put the dishwasher and cleanup sink in the island and add a prep sink on the range run. I would have the coffeemaker and toaster to the right of the prep sink on a smallish piece of counter, on the end near the breakfast table. If the range is scooted over like in C, you can fit the functions in without having two people butt to butt. You would have plenty of cabinets for dish storage, and if kid plates were in a separate snack area, they would be easy to unload as well. My kid plates are in a lower cabinet next to the fridge, while my everyday china is on open shelving near the table.

4. Bmore put some windows on the bottom wall in your plan. Is there a reason that there are no windows at all on either plan? Bad view? Nosy neighbors? It might be good to get some light along there somewhere: breakfast room, kitchen, mudroom.

Yeah, ms. plllog, I know she meant that BUT don't have enough space to do it - very roughly, a surface about 5 feet long or less.

This is a function reversal. Not quite as DRAMATIC as one would be with the range centered on the end wall and flanked by windows. If would work better if possible, so more gear and some food could be stored closer to the cooking action.

{{gwi:1929395}}

Oh, dear!! B'more, I wasn't calling you out!! I was only discussing the aspects of trying to open up the breakfast room. My island is 5' long. It wouldn't be ideal for a cleanup zone (mine is prep) because one is always looking for more places to set dirty dishes, and one doesn't want things to fall off. I only mentioned your plan (which I thought was cool) because I wanted to reinforce that I was talking about pointing the other way than in the picture.

Your new plan is a great way of maximizing the space. It's more Waltons table than breakfast room, but the kitchen flows really nicely.

My goodness, you all are creative! I've had a a crazy couple of days where it seemed that the universe (and my children) were conspiring to prevent me from thanking you all for your assistance.

Bmorepanic - your plan is so open and airy. It has great flow and is so creative. I would never have thought of moving the kitchen around in this way. It has give me a lot to consider.

Pllog - thank you very much for helping me think through our priorities. The idea of cutting a path through the peninsula provides a nice alternative, if we do not dramatically change the layout.

histokitch - I love your idea of pushing back the entrance to the pantry to create a cabinet/counter between pantry and refrigerator. Such a small think, but what an improvement! The larger island plan has a lot of merit as well. Again, great advice to mull over.

I have to admit that I'm at the point where the kitchen design is giving me a headache. But then I read the "10 commandments of kitchen remodeling". Really helped to make me laugh and keep things in perspective. :)