How big is the opening? Can you do a bypass door? One panel would still be visible all the time but it can stack to one side. Or maybe a folding center door?

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Raydoor Folding Center or Bypass door?

I had the butlers door in my kitchen (swings both ways, no handle), and it was open 99% of the time flush against the cabinet. I could have swung it the opposite way into the dining room and left it open also - but then it would have stuck into the room. I liked having the ability to close off the dining room. DH was always overly concerned that the kids would get their fingers pinched when they played with the door.

My main point is that you can have one of these doors that stays open - it has some sort of catch mechanism when you pull it open past ~80 degrees.

Lynne

I was in a house that had a door that was meant to be kept open Most of the time. It has Salice hinges and no knob set. When it was open it fit into a recess in the wall so it was flush. It was finished to match the walls.

However it was the full width of the opening and opened out of the room (ie into your kitchen) so you couldnt push through it carrying trays, it would open toward you) And, in this case the pull was right at the baseboard level, it was meant to be very discrete.

I am not sure how you want this door to look? Do you want a jib door that is part of the wall when closed? Or is something that is almost always open but easy to pass through when being kept closed more important?

I actually meant SOSS hinges.

The original dining room/butler's pantry/kitchen configuration of my old house is nearly identical to what you describe, Pllog. And the door that separates the butler's pantry from the dining room is exactly what Lovilynne describes -- a swinger without a handle or knob that can open both ways. There's a mechanical door stop that you can step on to keep in place or free it up for movement.

I'd probably use a bifold door or a split door (mine is two vertical sections that each pivot from the edge -- not joined, but it sounds like you don't like that idea). This is not my favorite, but the closest thing I know of to disappearing would be like the ones linked below. Maybe there is a custom or dressed up version. I take it a drape that is tied back and can be released wouldn't work since you want to walk back and forth through it.

Here is a link that might be useful: folding door

We need photos and a floor plan!
;-)

Bead curtain?

My last house had the old style swinging door (went both ways, was parkable on either side) and I loved it. No, I didn't USE it much and it was open almost always, but I loved having it there. Sometimes I'd leave it open on the kitchen side instead of the dining room side and see how long it took the spouse to notice. Easily amused...

This may be way beyond the scope of the project, but is there anyway to change the sightline into the kitchen so that it is not in plain view? (Move the door, reconfigure the "butlers pantry" area?

The house I grew up in had double doors between the kitchen and dining room and in real function *maybe one of them was closed for formal occasions. However, the doorway was in a location that the only people who could see into the kitchen at all were the host, and the person who sat to the right. The next person down saw the desk area at most. So, the door didnt really need to be closed because the work area was out of sight.

What are the structural barriers to a pocket door? And are you SURE they're insurmountable?
We've installed pocket doors into a wall with load-bearing structural requirements, electrical wiring and gas lines, and it just 'made' the space.

maybe you need a door like those 'roller blinds' with a remote. push a button and it glides up... push a button and it glides down...

I've seen them in ads on tv (and flyers) for the outside of windows.
I think they use them a lot in hurricane areas.

didn't get anything on that door link above.

Thank-you all for your helpfulness!

To clarify, the passage has cabinets on both sides, so there's no wall to set the door against, or into. The structural problem with adding a pocket door is the main pillar holding up the house and only about a foot of wall on the one side, and the plumbing for the laundry room on the other. In theory I could add it to the dining room side, but I'd rather have the door in my way than that.

The door opening is 38", and I want to keep every scrap of an inch possible for function. Ordinary doors take up at least two inches, and normal swinging doors take up at least 4". I spent a lot of money widening the doorway, and I'm not about to fill it up with excess door!

Rob P, sorry, I don't have any good pictures right now.

Homepro, Many thanks for the link! I'd been trying to describe something like this to my GC. I don't know if there's room to recess this at this point (I should have asked earlier!), but I'm going to check into it more.

John, I've been trying to look into that pivot hinge too, since it seems different from the ones I've seen but I haven't found any good specs. But there is no wall for it to go flush with. It's cabinets. They're not going anywhere.

Lynne, thanks! If I could find one that doesn't require 4" for the swing, it would be great to have a swinging door that would stay open of its own accord.

...or even with a stop like Marthavila's!

Palimpsest, the Soss hinges are lovely, but hinges aren't my problem. It does look like a plain old door might be my final recourse, no matter what kind of hinges.

Lascatx, I couldn't operate the link. I was looking at the bifolds on Homepro's link, which have the center pivot. That would get the door out of the way, but it would eat up too much of the doorway. Thanks for the idea, though! It's good to reconsider everything.

Fori, a bead curtain would solve all problems! If only I could like the looks! And the beads getting caught on dinner :) I hear you about the experiments. Sometimes the smallest inquiries are the most amusing. ;)

Sweeby, do tell more!! How do you make the space?

Desertsteph, That would be great, if it would all disappear into the wall! But I do want it to look better than beads (VERY BIG GRIN). I don't know about hurricanes, but the kind they use here against fires are pretty industrial looking... (hee)

I really appreciate all of the ideas, sympathy, jokes and help.

I'll let you know.

No great wisdom from me, but your post reminded me of the bathroom doors at Bar 89 in NYC.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bar 89

I'm not sure I understand why you don't think you can use a swinging door. We have a swinging door between our butler's pantry and the dining room. Fully swings both ways. Has the original 115-year old hinges, so no positive stop. We used to keep it propped open all the time, because I was worried about my kids getting their fingers pinched, but now we keep it closed all the time. I love it.

We have a swinging door on our regular pantry as well, with a new mechnanism from Rejuvenation. I love it because you can push it open, and it will stay open until you close it, in either direction. The mechanism doesn't seem to take up any extra doorway space, on either door. Maybe I am missing something.

I think any door that you need to go through carrying things should be a swinging door. I can just push the door open with my back or arm and walk into the dining room carrying a platter of food, or walk into the pantry with an armload of stuff.

We thought of the half doors that swing in in the middle for our pantry, but I thought that those were more likely to be annoying and get caught on things.

Rubyfig -- LOL!! Good grief! Thanks for the link ;)

Jeannie, It's not that I can't use a swinging door. It's that the standard interior swinging door's mechanism is too big--it does take an extra couple of inches, and it seems easier to have a regular door than the Z hinge swinging doors and having to stop those open when I don't want them closed.

A swinging door that doesn't require that much room for the pivot, and will stay open (as opposed to the Z hinge), is probably the best option. I think perhaps Homepro's linked site has one that's better. I just have to find out more about the specs.

Ours didn't take any space in the doorway except for the thickness of the door itself. It was hard to find a replacement hinge for the original 20s era mechanism, but they sill make em. The springy thingy is all inside the bottom of the door with a pin at the top of the door. The door sure doesn't disappear, but it gets out of the way when you want it to. SOmething like this:

Here is a link that might be useful: this sorta thing

Oops, the one I linked doesn't have builtin stops it appears, but they are available somewhere, and very desirable.

I think the Soss hinges do allow you to swing the door 180° completely out of the jamb, flush against the wall. They're mortised in, so that the pivot happens inside the door itself, not externally:

Then you'd only have the 1/2" or so of hinge that sticks out into the doorframe in two spots top and bottom when it's open, which is pretty minimal?

Here is a link that might be useful: soss invisible hinge

We have a swinging door between the dining room and kitchen that was installed in the 1910's. It takes up less than an inch (besides the door depth) and could have been installed closer to the wall. It stays open on either side when pushed all the way open. It works great. With kids though we have to say "coming thru" when the door is closed or one of them gets knocked by the door. The adults don't seem to get the door knocked into them. Not sure why this is a kid problem - maybe they're going too fast or not listening? We had a few fingers caught in the door when not used properly but they learn quickly!

Palimpsest, I had a lightbulb moment in the shower just now--

Circuspeanut posted a much better drawing than what I'd seen, and finally understood.

Thank you both!!! I'm beginning to see the light :)

I only need 90°, but this could very well be the best bet. Sorry to be so slow on the uptake!

Fori, thanks for the link, but, yeah, that's the kind that takes up the 4". The width of the door, plus the swing room (on the short side). It was already too late to start having tantrums over not getting my sliding door when I realized this and then started spiraling down into a morass of denial. (Listened too much to the GC (who is very good) instead of checking it myself and thinking through all the details. Bad me!!

Bostonpam, yeah, I grew up with one of these doors. I think the kids get hit because their arms are shorter so they get closer to the door.

This sounds a little weird, but would something like a barrier "screen" on the dining room side work?

If you could sort of have a partial wall (that blocks the view to and from your kitchen, but you could get around from either side)--either with the placement of a ceiling hung tapestry or sculptural Eames floor screen--something like that?

Pam, sounds like my old door. You need a porthole really low. :)

(We aren't replacing our battered kitchen/garage door this remodel because it has a lockable plexiglass catflap we've found very useful to avoid baby/toddler squashing. So tacky but sooooo practical.)

I'll add that I believe our swinging door was not as thick as a regular door - it was paneled, and maybe only 1" thick at the thickest part.

I did see this one on ebay and thought of you:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320294616566

But it's thicker. Plus, it requires a drive to Connecticut.

Lynne

Here is a link that might be useful: swinging butler's door

I had a swinging door i my first house and my grandmother had one in her house. I think they must have been fairly common in older homes, and I still like them. My spot wasn't built for one (door is a bit too far away from the wall on one side and would block a hall on the other).

Anyway, here's another try directly to the manufacturer's page. I saw these in Home Depot and the earlier link showed the different colors, including several white variations. This link shows it in a brown, probably because the photo shows up better. The fold nearly flat, like a vertical blind.

Here is a link that might be useful: folding doors, take 2

Okay, I showed all these ideas to the GC and he still likes his too modern metal and glass surface mounted in the dining room thing that I'm not having. :)

But I did find out why no kitchen side slider or pocket door. The city said no. And one picks one's battles with the city. They also didn't allow the sink vent pipe under the slab, and made us route it though the cupboads (luckily, it was behind the trash). They passed everything else, however, and fates willing will also pass us on final. Having just read about ... can't remember the OP's handle, and SF's and others' problems with plan check, and I feel much better about giving up my pocket door and getting my permits right away.

Rubyfig, that's actually a very good suggestion--but the room isn't big enough. Two steps in from the door and you're at the chairs. It could hang like an arras, more or less flush, but would have to be drawn aside like a curtain. Although... Now that you mention it, if I have to have hardware on the dining room side, I'd much rather have a tapestry rod than a door mechanism. I even have some partially complete canvas hangings I could finish and use. :D Hm... An artcloth opportunity. If I put copper tubing in the sides it would give some heft and framework. It could slide or bend. And I wouldn't have to move the switches. Hm... This version is still really inconvenient, but it has possibilities... I could even do bypass panels, a la Homepro's link, but without the lower track. A narrow panel on the short side. A wide panel that would cover more than the door, and slide rather solidly (maybe a pull too), and a sheer panel in front that could cover just the door, and provide depth over the heavier panel, but just drape over the door when it's open...

What an idea!! Turn it into an art project!!!! I'm going to think about this some more...

ROTFL! Fori, I love the no-baby-squashing-porthole!!

Lynne, that's a great door!

Lascatx, thanks for the new link. It's like the old Pella door, huh? It might be possible if it could be recessed. I'll have to check.

But the more it settles, the more I'm thinking I like this whole art opportunity idea. It would still be a bit inconvenient and a bother, but it would look good. And I can finish it in my own time and still use the kitchen.

Some of the best things are creative solutions to things you never would have considered if you'd had an easy way out. I'm not sure I'm following your vision 100%, but I like art solutions. :-)

Maybe a swing arm (that functions more like a door) for the tapestry panel. I know you can have those made rigid (along the top) to any size.

Hang some great looking curtains.

Nah, guess that wouldn't work, but I can just visualize those beautiful heavy red velvet drapes. :)

We installed a harmon hinge for a passageway. Looks great. Door is flush with the wall so it's virtually invisible. Might be a bit pricey but I thought worth it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Harmon hinge

The door doesn't have to be set into a recess. I've done it this way so when it's open, which is usually 99.9% of the time, it doesn't protrude into the doorway. It's basically a swinging door but it's a much cleaner contemporary look -- no exposed hardware. Rixson is the manufacturer. They have different types of pivot hinges. I've done all kinds of doors from pivot to automatic pneumatic opening "Star Trek" type. I've been in Las Vegas all week at the biggest manufacturing woodworking and cabinet making trade show and saw all the newest technology: lots of unique door hardware but none quite fit the criteria you set down. I wouldn't use Soss hinges; it's not that they couldn't work but they are not as free swinging as a pivot and you really don't gain a whole lot of space. The door will still be in the opening, it will still block the cabinets and you will see the hinges when open. Without knowing your layout I could be missing something. Could you build out the wall in front of the structural wall to accept a pocket slider (which to me would still be a pain to open and close during a dinner party unless of course it was automatic)? Could the cabinets behind the door be stepped to create a recess for a pivot door? This one might be way out there but the only way I know to truly get what you want is to project a hologram of a door from the sides. Turn it on when you need it and just walk right through. I haven't done that one yet but I'm always willing to try.
John

Oooh, yesh!! I didn't think of a hologram!! Thanks, John! That's an idea. It doesn't need to be solid--just opaque! But I wonder how much room the hologram generator would take... Actually, I'd love a hologram door, but I don't know if I want to spend on it even if the generator is tiny. :D

I'll look at the Rixson hinge again now that my modem is healed, as well as Jennsb's Harmon.

Susie, I don't think the red velvet will go, but it is a rich vision, isn't it?

Lascatx and Rubyfig, thanks for the encouragement for the art project. I'll let you all know...

One more option: Drapery track with a remote. Not exactly a hologram, but it does have the "here comes dinner, tada!" flourish to it.

I keep imagining a decorative panel (like a Suzani or something) which could (in theory) hang on a drapery track.

Here is a link that might be useful: fun

I do like Rubyfig's swinging textile rod thingy. You can even put BEADS on it. But I guess you'd have to be tall enough to open and shut it on the occasions where you'd want the thing swung out instead of just pushed aside...