I always say, "If they had required perfection, they would have hired God." You have to decide how godly your workpeople need to be and be willing to pay accordingly.

Put another way, at what point do you sell your soul for such things?

Similar to marcolo's concept...
If you have any pre-fab granite places near you, go and check out their offerings. In th Bay Area, they're all 2cm and double bullnosed, which is a seam. It gives you something to compare to...

Best of luck!!

Aliris: I actually kind of love your attitude! Perfection is not possible, in anything on this earth, and I think it's healthy to be aware of that, and to be flexible in your expectations in this kind of thing, especially when working with natural materials. On the other hand, however, you are paying money for a product and a service, and it needs to be done correctly, within reason.

I think that standing up to a recalcitrant contractor is an almost impossible task, especially for women. I hate it. So many are going to do what they want, regardless, and it takes a strong disposition to insist, to say 'this is unacceptable to me, and it needs to be corrected.'

Tell the middleman to take care of fixing the seams. Let him talk to the installer. Let him do his job--insist on it, actually. You will feel better about the whole thing, especially every time you run a sponge over a properly smooth seam. Good luck!

Last year I got really cheap granite for my river house. They did a terrible job on installation. My GC was furious with them. I had some tolerance, knowing I paid less, however, I did have them come straighten out a lot of problems.

I was thrilled to have granite that I would not otherwise have done, however, I did expect a reasonable level of acceptability.

My seams however, were wonderful. My house recently flooded, and we had difficulty finding the seems when we went to remove the granite after the flood.

Keep after them. They can and will do a better job.

"Oh, also - because I suspect the grubbly edges are present vertically, that is all down the cut, I'm not sure how sanding the top smooth between pieces will help, there will just be uncovered a new divet in the next layer down, right? And if this is so, that the cut isn't as clean as one might wish, I'm guessing this is a function of the softness of the stone, not necessarily poor quality craftsmanship."

Aside from loving the new vocabulary word "grubbly", I'm not sure I can visualize what you're sketching out here. Are you saying that the seams are not merely butted up incorrectly but also not smooth along their horizontal surfaces?

Make that: the SLABS are not merely butted up incorrectly but also not smooth along their horizontal top surfaces?

Marcolo, you're so funny: "I think some people can just be replaced with a spam bot that automatically blames the consumer and complains they didn't pay enough. "

I didn't actually mean for you to spend six weeks pondering every analytical angle; it's bad enough that I'm doing it, why should 2? I'm just wondering what "I can hardly feel the seam" really means. I'm wondering which side of "hardly" I'm falling. And I'm wondering whether the seam being a result of pieces mooshed together to create a countertop makes a difference, as well as whether the specifics of the materials in question matters.

That is, thanks to juniork -- you're brilliant, thank you! -- I realized tonight that of course I do have a standard for comparison right in front of my nose. The edges of the island are ogee seamed to a strip of edging. I can "hardly" feel that seam, and it's an awful lot less of "hardly" than the countertop seams.

So that takes care of the definition. Remaining is what I'm "entitled" to: am I entitled to feel the seams as much "hardly" along the tops as along the sides? You-all seem to be implying "yes".

Artfulhome - I'll try to do as you suggest. I'll try to take the tact tomorrow with the middleman that I am not happy with the seams. Oooof - *sharp intake of breath*. It's not that I'm never unhappy, and evidently so much of the time. But I don't *want* to be _thought of_ as being unhappy: it's so unbelievably stupid, I know this. [it's so unbelievably 'female'. gak - do not yell, marcolo: I know it all already.]

If anyone's still reading this thread, please answer me this: is a seamed piece in an island or large counter run 'supposed' to be as nonexistent as the seam on a half ogee edge? Is there allowance to be made for the material itself in accepting a greater degree of non-smoothness? Is it standard practice to resand and repolish the join of two pieces of stone bookmatched for a countertop right onsite??

thanks...

dianolo: I don't love the way it is, true, but I don't agree that just because I instinctively don't love it I am entitled for it to be any different. It just isn't the case that everyone's feelings are right by definition: sometimes people are wrong; I may be in expecting this seam to be different. Answers to my above questions will help me in assessing this so I appreciate anyone with the patience to be reading this far and offering their 0.02.

florantha: exactly. I don't want to sell my soul and truthfully, they shouldn't have to sell theirs either. It's just a seam in a counter. This is the quagmirey dilemma.

peanut - yes, that's what I'm saying/wondering. In exaggerated form, a seam looks like this from a bird's eye view:

//
\\
::
//

While what you'd want would be this:

/
\
:
/
which takes care of the horizontal space problem

Then there's that infamous "lippage" part.

But really what you want is this:

:
:
:
:

And I'm thinking that instead there's a wavyness to the seam that would be present even if sanded down, say 0.1mm because that wavy pattern is present along the cut of the stone _vertically_.

Does that make sense?

Revisiting a problem to discuss it only takes 1/20th of a day. Fixing it takes 1/2 a day. More or less. Fixing it involves a whole chain of command too. That's more complicated than deflecting it by talk.

the sooner this is over the better. A fix takes time. Every time they come back to fix anything, they are thinking of the half-day it will consume. In general, the sooner one speaks up the better because for the chain of command the fix time can be deemed a subsegment of the initial operation (not a separate operation) spread out in segments over X days.

aliris, like artfulhome above and many others I find it hard to stand up to contractors. They seem to sense it and they're good at intimidating.

But I can write, and you can too. I have had two experiences where when I clearly documented my grievances in a letter, it really had an impact. No threats, no mentions of Angie's list or anything like that. Not necessary. Once they see that you have facts, that you can write and will take the time to do so, it really seems to motivate them to make things right.

Just lay out the situation and what you want them to do as specifically as you can.

Not trying to be "self promoting" here - but... I re-read the OP, and the issue appears to be crappy seams and workmanship for a kitchen that you paid at least $3000 USD for - Am I right?

Regardless of the amount paid - the 'work" should be in compliance with a "set standard" that exists - addressing minimum workmanship standards. IF the work sitting in your home (that I hope you have NOT paid in full for) DOES NOT meet those minimum standards (MIA Design Manual) - you have grounds to receive remedy (repair at a minimum / replacement as the maximum).... The Marble Institute - of which, I am a member and have been for almost 10 years now) IS - THE Recognized INDUSTRY STANDARD that needs to be implemented here IF you do not live in a state where workmanship standards take precedence (like here in AZ)...... I should have added that in my earlier post on this thread...... my bad... Either way - an Industry standard ( at the State or National level) beeds to be consulted in judging the workmanship of the work in question.... pretty much an open and shut case.

To Me - Your situation sounds like your fabricator is either a rank amateur, or they do not know how to -or - thet refuse to learn how to surface polish seams, and also dress abutting seam edges (prior to the seams being glued (BTW - I TEACH this at AZ School of Rock to hundreds of Fabricators every year) The seams you have now - could have been done better - or even to near perfection - had your fabricator known how to have done them. The didnt know that you don't saw a seam and glue it - you have to "dress" the seam first in order to get rid of the "cips" the diamopnd saw blade makes when a piece is cut out of a slab- on each side (using a Seam Phantom - then pull the seam together using a Gorilla Grips.

Based on your written account (on this thread) - this did not happen, and I can't see any pics showing the scale of the seam itself, or close ups of the chips with a nickel or penny laying next to the seam line for scale )all things that I do for a living to help people like yourself and other consumers that feel that their work is sub standard. Post some pics like I have described, and I will look at the and give you a free professional opinion - it's your choice - just trying to help you here....

I just wanted to interject into this discussion - a real working Fabricator's opinion of the situation - so as to keep some balance in the frenzy.

'IMHO - Your fabricator FAILED to educate you on what HE was supplying to you - you expected a Mercedes Benz, and instead - you got a Ford...... You should have been able to have SEEN AND FELT the quality of the seam your fabricator was going to supply. This can easily be done by either showing you a completed job from within 30 days - or having a "mock-up" sample that illustrates the quality (or lack thereof) that a Fabricator does day in and day out. THEN - YOU can decide if you want an S-Class... or a Focus.....

Bottom line - UNLESS they told you verbally or in writing that your seams would look and feel the way they do - it appears that they owe you a remedy (fix or replace)

Best thing to do (as I alsways say at this point) is P I C S for us to see what you see !!!!!!

hth

kevin

This thread has made me glad for three things:
1) We were able to layout the whole kitchen -- including the big island -- with no seams in the granite;
2) We have a contractor who, despite his scheduling and logistical challenges, is willing to work towards very high finish quality standards;
3) We write down everything, almost immediately, and document it to the contractor (or granite supplier or appliance store or...) via email, and stay on top of them to get it fixed.

Because of #3, I'm confident that I'd have gotten most issues addressed to my satisfaction. Because of #2 it's been relatively easy to get them to redo the few things that were needed to be redone -- even though I know it may have cost the contractor or his sub.

It's a bit late for you to do anything about #1 or #2, but #3 is all about how much of your personal and emotional capital you want to invest to get things done to your satisfaction.

That's the way I think about it ... it's not whether or not the seam is 'hardly' noticeable, or within what someone else thinks it is is reasonable. The question to me would be: is it worth the investment of personal time and emotional capital to get it the problem addressed to my satisfaction. Like any investment, there is risk -- one could invest the capital and not get the desired return. (Maybe your questions about standard practice and what's reasonable are an attempt to gauge your risk?)

Given the situation, what you know about yourself, how the issue will continue to make you feel, and what you know about the workers involved, I think that only you can make the determination of whether or not this is a smart investment of yourself.

I mentioned you have a gut feeling about it because it clearly bothers you. If it were done well, you would not be wavering about it.
I don't get the sense you are being overly picky. I posted some pix to show the shoddy work on our house and some people commented that until they saw the pix, they had been wondering if I had been to fussy. I can understand that. We only have your words to go by now, having not seen or felt the seam, but by your words, I can picture that it was not done reasonably well. I have learned not to expect perfection but also not to settle for shoddy. Contractors will see if the can get it past you but putting up resistance. That tells them how important or not it is to you and if they can get away with the faster exit. Very rarely, do they admit something is not done well because that involves more time and possibly materials to make something right. It happened only once to us with one of the gcs, while the other swore there was nothing wrong about what was done (a really egregious mess).

A good contractor will do it right and not need to be asked to fix something. They will be their own critic and you will see the finished outcome and be happy. If the installer did not catch the goof then middleman should be protecting you and speak up about fixing it. One that argues that something is good enough, when the customer is clearly disappointed is often just being lazy. There may be times that the customer is too fussy, but then again, we pay for things to be done well and have a right to the fuss when it is our hard earned dollars and we have been promised a good outcome. Charging less does not give them a right to give you a sloppy seam. If they wanted to be paid more to do the job right, then they should not have charged less. The materials should change with the dollar amount, but the workmanship should not.....
In my line of work, I get paid different amounts based on what house I sell. I give everyone the same great effort whether I am getting paid less or more. It never enters my head that I am not making as much on this one so can get lax without it being a bad thing. The installer is shortsighted because referrals are the name of the game and your "cheap" job could possibly get a big, or repeat, referral.

Hi everyone - Kevin and others: *is* there anything to be done wonce a seam is installed? That really is some of the issue, as noted.

I'll try to take photos and post. Again, it's a feel-thing; there are no dime-sized chips -- well, there were some but they filled them. The seam -- it is as you say, Kevin: the edges that they abutted are rough but I have no idea whether there's anything even that could be done now. I understand second-guessing the remedy isn't my job; to identify it is. But also my job is to articulate what I want done, and I can't know about that without knowing what *can* reasonably be done.

Round and round ... and Kevin, I'm in SoCal. FWIW Kevin, I actually wrote to you offlist several months ago now but after your first response I never heard back so I thought you weren't really interested in offlist help (more than fair-enough!). I'll try to post pictures but haven't just because I'm fairly sure I can't get any to show my meaning. However, I hear you that this is the way it's done so perhaps if the problem is subtle-enough that it can't be depicted, then that might be an answer of sorts in terms of severity.

Sayde - that's smart of you. I will hold that as a little ray of hope as to how I can proceed. Plan for now is 1. pictures, 2. meet with foreman 3. letter -- not necessarily all to be fired, just depending on outcome.

Kevin - try to put yourself in my shoes. How can I say to these folks "look, I understand you were to have dressed the seam first to get rid of the "cips" left by the diamond saw and using a seam phantom pulled the sides together..." I actually did, while looking for a fabricator, ask of one as suggested here, whether they used a diamond saw. I felt like I'd asked him to to measure the length of his private parts. I felt as if I had violated his personal, professional space. It was very embarrassing. Evidently there is no one under the sun who would not use a diamond saw, except on the curved part of my application, and this was all information it was quite gauche of me to discuss. The problem with an amateur asking professional questions is, you've nowhere to put the answers, no context, no follow-up questions or understanding where to put the info. And while you _can_ say that the attitude of response gives a clue as to the sort of person involved, that's not really much of a gauge either. There are plenty of curmudgeonly, private leave-it-to-me fine artistes. One's public relation skills while necessary, really are in a realm quite apart from one's construction skills.

sigh.

I'm trying; it's just like others have noted above, I'm not really sure at the end of the day any of this questioning and self-education gets you terribly far. I think so much of it is luck and probably, how you do interact with whom you do wind up hiring.

I hate this....

if the thread has grown this far without you getting what you need, then yes you do need to take pictures and TRUST people to understand that there are not dime-sized hole. In fact, nobody ever said there might be. The dime is to have a reference dimension for the eye and for the brain cogitating.

It is true that asking someone about a diamond blade is like asking if they have a vehicle, if it has wheels on all the four corners, and if it has tires on the wheels. But so what. That was then. This is now. Delete your memory and you will proceed better.

I know it doesn't help the OP but whoever gave the advice to ask the company about how they handled a problem that arose is giving great advice.

Another thing to ask is to speak to a few customers they worked with. Most companies have several satisfied customers that will talk to you and you can ask them some questions.

We were very lucky in that my dad has worked with many granite installers in our area so when it came time to choose one, we went with someone that my dad had actually dealt with a problem with. When the granite was installed, the seaming was visible. The owner came out, took one look at it, and fixed it at his cost with no arguement or trouble. He agreed that it was unacceptable and not up to the standards of his company. He wasn't the cheapest nor was he the most expensive...about middle-of-the-road, average pricing. We may have paid a bit more but the peace of mind was worth it. Our install was perfect. The seam is very smooth. It's not visible at all but we also have a granite that has some detail to it yet is uniform, so that isn't a surprise.

All right, here are some photos. This is on the peninsula edge over a recycling pullout (as opposed to the seam's opposite edge, over the MW in the fridge-aisle, just for orientation):

You can see, for reference, the seams they did for the edging, and it's quite different. The ogee edging also feels poorly, not sure what stuff is on the edge there; I can feel but not see it, maybe clear glue or epoxy?

I'm really not sure what pictures to post. I put a whole pile on photobucket and I think if you click on the pictures here it will just take you to the long series. Here's another few:

Again, if you go to the photobucket you'll also be able to see the counters in perspective. This particular seam is offset on the side of a peninsula, which I always call "island" because that's essentially how it functions.

This drove me very crazy but my tile guy said not to worry about it. Turns out, I learned after the fact, that they'd run out of stone and used the cut straight up to the edge of the stone. That's why it fell short so much. And also explains why it's "wavy" at one place.

The gap measured approx 5/8". Maybe a hair less than that.

Here's one on the edge of the sink -- it's a little hard to see in this photo. There was a difference in thickness of the stone where they joined the seams so there wound up being a good 3/8" disjoint when the pieces abutted. I asked them to fill it in epoxy, which they did, and then I even asked them to color the epoxy with a little streak of dark red like some of the stone. It's pretty OK now but what irks me is - why didn't they talk about this before it was done?

Foreman just postponed visit til tomorrow so there's a little time to get opinions. I did tell him I was looking forward to his assessment and that I suspected it really wasn't a very good job. So now the question is if anyone can tell from these photos: do you agree? Perhaps I am being too picky? It really isn't like dianolo's situation where it is plain to see she wasn't being picky; I think this might be....

There are a ton more pictures on photobucket.

And please, it's practical advice I need. As in, what can be done now if anything [e.g., can they come with a polisher and make the tops more continuous? That won't take care of the little bites on the edges though, will it?)? Should I ask them to do anything? If there's nothing to be done, why ask?

TIA...

I think the good news is that this is fixable, with two or three colors of epoxy swirled together. Think of how artist painters swirl their colors to get various shades: they pick the spot where the color blend matches, and they apply that blend to the spot where they want that color to be on the "canvas" (countertop = canvas in your case).

I'm not an expert in anything at all, so take other people's comments seriously if anyone posts anything that says something different from what I just wrote above.

Thanks, David -- they did already try to cover it over with epoxy though. That is, I think they've gone their limit with the epoxy-fix. I think they're quite masterful at color blending! But actually getting it to stick seems to be a different matter.

I think they are not masterful at color blending. Not at all.

Then, a second challenge is to put enough of the gunk into the groove to fill the groove. Challenges, challenges.

I am NO EXPERT, but those seams do not look acceptable to me.

Here are some images that might help with explaing how a
seam is done. And then some images of seams that are
"standard" and some that are truly perfect.

Often people find a deal on granite but the reality is
that a fabricator/installer is an artist that needs to be
paid. I personally think a good installer is worth their
weight in GOLD.

I paid a fair price for my granite (I did not use sonoma
but I used an installer in New England as wonderful)
and I love my seams, edges and entire installation.

It was
done right the first time. I can not express enough
to lurkers, newbies, and granite shoppers, to find the
best installer you can afford. Learn all you can before
you shop for the right installer. And the best installer
is not always the most expensive sometimes they are
just the hardest workers with talent.

~boxerpups

From Gardenweb Rollie

From Gardenweb Rollie

UGLY seam and slabs do not even match

Close up of seam by StoneStudio

Perfect seam by StoneStudio

Here is a link that might be useful: Seams I am confused once again, Aliris19

Hey Boxerpups.

These two pics are one of MINE !!! LOL !!!

{{gwi:1928405}}

and this one:
{{gwi:1928406}}

here's how it looks being done:
{{gwi:1928407}}

Aliris - IMHO - your seams are UNSAT - My suspicion is confirmed, in that - it does appear that your "fabricator" IS a rank amateur. Your seams were cut and glued - no edge dressing, no chip reduction. The glue taht was used was not allowed to dry totally before the "installer" started to scrape away the excess glue over the seam (they probably gooped it on and left a big ridge dry over the seam line. Additionally, the glue does NOT appear to have been tinted adquately in order to minimize the visual impact of the seam line.

Now to the sink seam - UGH !!!!! This cries out "no attention to detail" especially with the slab thickness variation from right to left of the seam. This SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHECKED IN THE SHOP - B E F O R E - the job was shipped for install... This could have been easily remedied by first CHECKING the slab pieces (where the meet up at the seam) by using a digital micrometer (available from Harbor Freight - Mine cost me under $20 bucks) - the "mike" shows the thickness down to the thousandths of an inch or in metric... THEN, the thicker half could have been ground down to match the other "thinner" half at the seam line.

I'm just sayin - your seams COULD HAVE been done MUCH nicer and MORE professionally (THAN WHAT YOU ARE SHOWING IN YOUR PICS).

NOW - In order for your seams to be done RIGHT, the only thing that can be done now is to remove the pieces, re-dress the seams in the shop, as well as plane down the variance at the sink, and the re-set the seams properly, using a Gorilla Grips and proper glues for the seam - worked the way the SHOULD HAVE BEEN in the first place.

AzStoneconsulting,

I found them on Google. I should have known they were
by a SUPERHERO.

I will be sure to label them AZStoneconsulting in my
Photobucket account. Everyone should see your talent.
If more people realized what seams could look like they
would not jump to the cheap granite installs but rather
find the best to create a piece of art for their home.

You Rock!!!

~boxerpups

Kevin, I showed the seams today to the kitchen people through which the fabricator was hired. He tells me this is as good as it gets, it's completely acceptable, there's nothing wrong.

Are you willing to let me use your words and explanation of what should be done? I've tried to contact you offlist without success so thought this more public way might catch you. If you'd be willing to email me offlist I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks.

Alris19 -

NOT trying to be self promoting here - but....Please feel free to contact me

Here is a link that might be useful: AZSOR Website

aliris,
Have they been paid in full? A good way to get anyone's attention is to hold back money until the job has been done to at least a minimum standard (which it does not appear to have been done in this case).

They "ran out of stone" -- ?

I think you should tell them you ran out of money, so their final bill will be paid in Cheerios. If they complain, shrug your shoulders and tell them: hey, that's the best that can be expected.

Musko - These guys actually do pay attention. The boss's mantra is to "do as you would have done in your own kitchen, before anyone has to ask". He really does care about the quality, reputation and demeanor of all his employees. I don't feel not-heard, just there's a bit of a disconnect in terms of what they *know* to do and accept. They do a pretty nifty slightly maverick business, but learning from the opinions of others is obviously tricky. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot they can do at this point short of ripping up, which I'm not comfortable asking them - or putting up with them, quite frankly, to do.

Kevin, I will call you. I appreciate the offer. Obviously it's tricky wearing two hats on this sort of a website, a professional one and a more personal one as well. I'm guessing you might have been slapped a bit in the past that you keep noting you're not trying to be self-promoting. I appreciate it's difficult to know how to share your hard-acquired knowledge without appearing, even being, such. I will just note that I asked, so hopefully people will cut you a little slack about that here at least. Thanks for trying to negotiate that fine line.

Aliris-

thanks for the kind words -

There's so many things I can say about the "not trying to be self promoting" thing, but I will forgo that "vent" for now......

anyways

looking forward to your call

best

k

aliris19, I've been reading this and have stayed out of it, because I don't have any practical advise to help you. But after seeing those pix, I thought, "what they heck did they use to finish the edges of that beautiful stone?" It's not even close to being anywhere near right or acceptable. And they ran out??? Did they not measure? Grubbly is too kind a term for that?

Here's 2 pix of my sink seam just done last weekend, if it helps you. There are no grubblies and you have to look long and hard to find any seams. To respond to your original question, they were not the most expensive fabricators by far. They do, however, love their craft and take extreme pride in what they consider their art.

Before:

After:

A little OT. I for one don't mind the feedback from the pros here (other than the blatant spammers). Their perspective is different than those who've invested in our kitchens and paying a boatload of $$$ To get the best we can afford. Not to mention the blood, sweat and tears of researching, then choosing, then hoping.

I think "look long and hard to find any seams"

means

There is a seam
It is in photo.
The runnels have nothing to do with the seam.
The pictures were of the runnels.
The pictures also happen to include the seam.
Therefore these pictures were posted.

Sorry, aliris. That last post was not my intent at all. Sorry if my post offended you.

Hey celtinNE - ? I wasn't offended by anything? Did I seem to be? My apologies if so?!

Gosh your counters are beautiful. I love those runnels. I wondered whether to do that for a while. It looks really terrific.

Thanks for the comparison reality-check.

No, aliris. That last post had nothing to do with your post, but the davidro1 post above. I am no expert, that's why I'm here.

Perhaps this pic is a better view, sans runnels. I only meant show a pic that does not have your grubblies (I now love that word). And not a noticeable difference in the thickness.

Oh, OK; got it Celtine. And I see the seam now! ;)

I can't say for sure, but I think DrollDavid writes in free rhyme to sort things out for himself. I think he asks himself a question, maybe not the politest of questions, and then drops an answer in shorthand to the typewriter! It's confusing, and I could be wrong here, but I actually have come to conclude he's not trying to be insulting. Just carefully logical.... feel free to chime in DrollDavid if I've got this wrong!

Your stone is gorgeous. I'm trying not to feel jealous; what I've got is nice too. You're all right, the time to address the problem is, well, before now but failing that, at least now. But also, if nothing gets corrected if won't be the end of the world either. There are so many mistakes and problems all over the place around here.... this is just going to have to be another one of them. I'm glad to have clarity as to what is a mistake, what I should have avoided or tried harder to, etc. In the absence of this, well: 'I haven't visited husband or child in the hospital, jail, or rehab ... I'm thanking my lucky stars that a stupid kitchen is today's biggest problem'. Thanks, Rosieo.

It is clear to me, a rank amateur, that those seams were not done well. You know it in your gut/heart, yet others IRL are telling you it is fine. Who do you believe? Them or your "lying eyes"? They can tell you the sky is green, but that will not make it so. I'd use clear words in a polite but firm tone that after many days of mulling it over, you have decided that it is just not acceptable. They need to do whatever it takes to correct it. This is not only your opinion, but visible and something that can be felt.
You have asked many others for their opinions, and not a one said "it looks good" and "don't worry you will not notice it after the first few days" like one often hears when posting a question like this.
You are not crazy, overly fussy or unreasonable. You paid professionals to install the counters and got a less then professional job. Even if you were picky, you paid them to do the job properly and would have a right to be. This is not you nit-picking. It needs to be fixed.

So OK, I started to write up a letter of complaint for the middleman as per sayde's suggestion. As you might imagine, these photos are not all that is contained in my complaints. If anyone has any interest or willingness to help me edit the diatribe please contact me offlist; I'd welcome an objective eye. With photos the letter is up to 14 pages. And this is prior to my even addressing my request for mitigation: I don't know yet what can or should be done.

Again, I just keep telling myself - and I do think it's true (but don't tell me if it isn't) - this is not that big of a deal; it'll be fine. So Ok, the coloring isn't "masterful". But I can live with it. Maybe there's an easy-ish way to improve things if not make them all better. We'll see whether they're willing to tackle any of it, but if not I'll be able to move on from this one I think.

Thanks all for your endless help.

Hey all -- reviving this in an effort to, I dunno, grab some support and backbone. The GC and fabricator at last came out for an inspection. And I heard about the same as I did from the foreman: 'looks great, with a couple exceptions here and there. But there's nothing really we can do, add some epoxy here, which will just scrape off, a little filing there... but really, this is as good as it gets.'

So that's what I was told. It was all fairly amicable - well, not from the fabricator. He was pretty p'd but the GC is where his bread is buttered, so the poor thing ate humble pie. sort of. I say "poor thing" because, frankly, I just don't think he knows otherwise. [For example, he told me that the edges are grubbly because you have to cut them on a "V" shape and smoosh tons of glue in there to get them to stay, and this creates grubbliness. Doesn't sound like "dressing" of the seams at all. But what am I to say????]

And so at this point, I'm sort of trying to squeeze blood from a stone, right? I suspect a more experienced professional like Kevin, could have a trick or two up his sleeve to improve things. But these guys don't. I think I'm left with the option of suing, which frankly I don't think this merits, or what, moving on?

I guess I'm looking for support to move on. How do you do that?! sigh. I guess you must do that by remembering "no one's dead, ill, in the hospital or rehab...." whatever that brilliant statement was. It doesn't matter. Anyway, that's what I'm looking for support swallowing. Or, if anyone has a practical suggestion I'd be interested in hearing that, too.

BTW, Kevin was very generous in speaking with me for more than an hour on the phone, but there's only so much he can do too. At this point to impel him to speak with the GC, would suggest throwing good money to hire Kevin for his forensic services, after bad - meaning I don't think the original guys could do whatever he suggested.

How do you dredge up permission to accept mortal work, stay on budget and move on???

Hi, Aliris, your GC offered you epoxy and filing. Take him up on it. Here is what you do:
1. Call your GC and say "you offered to have the seam filed and epoxied. I thought it over , and I will take you up on it. Since your sub seems unclear on how to do the work, please find another one. Here are two names if you don't have someone knowledgeable. Please call me tomorrow with the date we will be able to complete this job.

2. Copy this exact message into an email to him so it is dated and in writing. (Or, just send the email or letter, if you can't say the words.

You can do this. Really you can. Asking for a flat counter is a pretty minimal request. Please go for it.

Hi colorfast - I'm in a he-says-she-says situation with the flat counter. I run a nail and it sticks. He runs a nail and says, "well, it sticks but not much". I show him the side seams that are smooth (sandwich edging) and he says "I can't do that up top. If I were to sand it smooth and flat, you would see the sanding effort -- it would look worse than if I did nothing.". I say, um, ....

But it's not as if the fabricator is saying "I can't", he's shrugging and saying "whatever". It's me who's saying 'oh yeah, didn't you already do this epoxy-thing, two times even? And it didn't work last two times ... me thinks it won't this time either'. And he says 'yup, that's what I told you. I can do it, but it won't help... whatever you want lady, I'll do it....'.

So that's where I'm at.

sigh.

What I want is for the fabricator to go to Kevin's school! But that's not going to happen. And I want the GC to become aware of how the work he's so high on actually isn't that super-laudable. But that's not going to happen either; I'm not a professional to contradict him; he trusts "his guy".

double sigh.

he-says-she-says.

I could send a url to this thread: oy.

some f-ing uncomfortable, all of this!!!!!!!!!!! Why can't people just do things right, the right way, the first time???

triple sigh.

Thanks for the buck-up words, cf.

OK, here's a question:

If a seam does catch a nail, but has been glued down already, is there anything to do short of pulling up the stone? For example, could you take the equivalent of a rotary sander for wood to the stone? Or will that wind up, after all is sanded and polished, smeary and noticeable? Would that treatment help or is it really the case that there's no way to get the join flat, shiny and homogeneous with the rest of the surface, once it's been glued down?

TIA.

Aliris -

Thanks for your kind words - However.......................

You DO have a kind of "last resort" and it's one I think that'll get your GC's AND the Fabricator's attention.....

In California, you have a Registrar of Contractors = you can file a complaint based on 'substandard workmanship".

I looked on line at the California site - we have one here too in AZ, WITH a published "Standards of Workmanship" that has to be adhered to as a minimum.

Since there is no published standard that I can see on their website, the fact of the matter is that the seam you have there that's pictured does not meet the standards set by the Marble Institute of America - which is what the States refer to anyways.... in short - you already have the product and the standard that it should have been made to - the two do not match, so a remedy needs to be applied.

I think that you'll get their attention - go for it !!!!!!

hth

kevin

Here is a link that might be useful: California State Contractors Board Website

Aliris,

You missed a critical point in my prior post. It is time for a better fabricator. Call your local stoneyards and ask "who would you go to if you buy a house and there is a crack in the granite?" In my hometown, there's a guy that's well-known in the industry for tricky stone repairs. I'm betting there's such a person in your town too. This is who you suggest to your GC. Tell them you need a knowledgeable outside person.

IF your GC says No, then bring up reporting to the Contractors' board in California. Be sure to reconfirm his license number so it is filed properly.

I know part of you wants to call it a day. But, you really don't want food and gunk getting caught in that crack. Think of breezygirl and hold firm:)

Thanks, colors. Fabricator isn't licensed (thanks for the link); GC is though.

I love the suggestion for how to set about locating another fabricator. Thanks; I'll try that.

Trouble is, here in LA trying to find a good contractor is like trying to take a drink from a waterfall: too much material flowing all around. It's pretty hard to pick the signal from the noise. At least I've found it to be. Plus, in a smaller market things will just cost what they cost. Here there's someone hustling at each and every price point with an unknown distribution of charlatans at each. Picking one's way through this mine field has been very, very challenging to me. I had a far easier time before the internet, frankly. Maybe that's just a function of population growth though.

BTW, I take it then that you think the answer to my question is 'yes, there is a way to flatten a crack that was not pulled sufficiently tight after the slabs are glued down.'

There are 2 different types of customers/clients complaints.

1. The customer is disappointed and wants to vent, express disappointment, and be heard and validated. The response from the business should be something like "You are absolutely right, I am so sorry, this is not the quality of work that we aspire to."

2. The customer is disappointed and wants action. They are angry and want something done. This response from the business would require a refund or some type of compensation or action.

At this point you sound ready to move forward. If you are that is OK. Perhaps you need one more conversation where you can have the last word. Something like "I am not stupid, this is a lousy install...I am very disappointed with this install and the responses to it. I am not happy or satisfied, in fact I am quite disgusted."

You've gotten more validation about this from the people here at GW than your own people working in your home and taking your money. The granite is beautiful, striking as a matter of fact, and your kitchen will be beautiful also.

When they tell you "it's fine" they are right. It should have been "perfect." You deserved nothing less than that. Tell this to your GC!

I wonder if azstoneconsulting will confirm this.

ditto the posts about getting Anyone Who already has a reputation as someone who enjoys finetuning, tuneups, repairs, etc. Bring them in and pay them.

With almost no practice you or a child of yours could put epoxy into this yourself too. You have to buy several epoxy glues and mix (swirl, smoosh) to get a color pattern match, a quasi match, something that looks more or less sufficient to blend in enough. Not hard to do. Like blending peanut butter cookie batter with another cookie batter and smooshing it around so that the surface doesn't show any specific swirl. Not random but sorta. It's a project. Way back in the day when there was no cable TV, kids used to do projects.

I cracked a marble sill and repaired it with a handyman who loved the idea of being a big kid and playing with epoxies. More fun than PlayDo because we had a goal. It required two people because we had to keep each other company while playing. All alone I would have felt foolish for wasting my time or for trying something I had never done before. All alone he too would have gotten discouraged. Together we "got drunk" without drinking. A silly time was had by all. I paid all the bills.

Hth

You make me smile, DrollDavid; thanks for the image.

No time for TV around here ... is it just a coloring thing or is there some secret formula for getting the epoxy to actually stick inside little chips? That was the impression from what I was told, that the chips are so wispy the glue just won't "take". So I had the impression coloring wasn't the issue.

sigh.

I've seen them do the color-swirling thing: it did look like great fun.

I will let the stone guys do what they'll do, then retain that for a future playdate. :) Maybe on Superbowl Sunday ....

chips? like grit? grit ain't gonna do no good; too many specks spoil the stick; dat dere grit gotta go; put a dustsucker on it (vacuum cleaner); then water it down and wipe it out.

the rough edge of a stone is an OK surface to stick glue to, if the glue is made to stick stone to.

>Thanks, colors. Fabricator isn't licensed (thanks for the link)

Uh, in CA if you are doing any work where materials + labor exceed $500 you must be licensed.

I did check that my fabricators license was active.

Is he an employee of your GC?

Here is a link that might be useful: Requirements for CA contractors license

Wow ... who knew? I'm almost 100% certain the fabricator is not an employee, though in this instance I did pay the GC who then presumably reimbursed the fabricator, GC-style. I'm not sure what they'd scramble to say if called them on it but I imagine something could/would be done if I tried to (not that I'm at all clear why I would at this point; I'd have to think on this but I can't imagine anything good coming of it for me. For the sanctity of the profession and other homeowners perhaps, but at the moment I'm in self-serving mode I think).

Well, I'll keep this in my hat, or under my armpit or something.

Remind me again why I ever thought renovating was a good idea? It was here, right, that someone recently noted how much more restful surgery is. That's something of an understatement.... how am I supposed to know or check that this person is allowed to be doing what they're doing?? I guess that's the GC's job... I guess that's why the GC gets to mark up the work, right?

I'm pretty sure it's Marcolo who's so fulsome with the alcohol-recommendations. I'm not much of a drinker but I'm beginning to think I should maybe start. ;) I want one of bee's blue numbers I think. Except I'm suppose to be crunchy-granola-esque: could I make it a green one do you think?

Except I'm suppose to be crunchy-granola-esque:

Use plenty of wine. It is just rotten grapes. Repeat as needed.