Congratulations Marleah! My mister experience is from the old one years ago at The Huntington Library. Totally different conditions and climate, but, hopefully, an idea of what worked in hotter, more arid conditions might help give you a starting point to begin experimenting. The set up was a table, about the size of a double bed. It was raised about waist high from the ground and contained a bed of lava rock with a heat cable buried an inch or so under the surface. Bottom heat of roughly 70 F aids in rooting. Higher temps for the bottom heat seem to inhibit root formation. The misters were set atop 18" pipes, inset from the corners about a foot. There were four, one at each corner. The table was protected on the east side by a lath wall; on the west and north by the lath house itself. The south side was in direct sun and it was open over head. The wind blew through the lath house and over the table freely. There were two timers, one was a one minute timer plugged in to a 24 hr timer. They were set to only mist during daylight hours when the humidity was lower with tremendously greater evaporation than at night. The mist interval was ten seconds every minute during the day light hours. The planting medium was a 50-50 mix of coarse builders sand and perlite. When night temps were at least 70 F and days were quite warm, MOST roses rooted in roughly 7 - 10 days. The cooler it got, the slower they responded. A local specialty rose nursery about that time, tried to set up a mister which was enclosed in plastic. They repeatedly attempted using Bandini potting soil under the mist and their roses rotted. This was here in the San Fernando Valley, a bit more arid than San Marino where The Huntington is located, and the heat quite a bit higher than at The Huntington. The thing to remember is, with a regular mist, the medium is going to remain wet. An organic potting soil stands a good chance of souring with constant moisture. Sand or a sand/perlite mixture will retain quite a bit of moisture while also providing excellent drainage and will never "rot". Sequoia Nursery ran out door misters, as well as indoors under plastic. They used a fir based, soil less mix with about 50% perlite under their mist. Under plastic, their intervals were set much wider apart. Outdoors in filtered sun, the mist went off more frequently. Their conditions were also quite warm with high evening humidity and relatively lower levels during daylight hours. I would imagine, you will want to set yours up with an on/off switch so you can conveniently turn it off and on. I would also imagine you wouldn't want it running at night when it is much cooler and wetter. The whole idea is to keep the cuttings moist so they don't dry out until they root. The medium needs to remain moist but not soggy. Very loose, fast draining types like the sand or sand/perlite can be continually watered and still have decent oxygen in them because they have large air spaces between their particles and don't retain vast amounts of water. If it's cool with high humidity, you may not really need to run the mister unless you see the mix and cuttings drying out. When it's warmer, drier or windier, you may have to run it to maintain the cuttings, preventing them from wilting and their foliage from drying out and falling. We always found the most suitable material for the mister were recently spent flowering stems. I routinely used the actual end of those stems and found they rooted faster, better than wood further down the cane. It was likely due to the higher concentrations of auxins, hormones and other nutrients in the actual flowering shoots compared to the wood beneath them. Not to mean you shouldn't try anything and everything you have available as most will eventually root. This was just what was the most efficient and successful under the conditions I operated under here. If you set it up under plastic, you won't have to run it as often, but you also stand greater potential of experiencing rotting, insect and disease issues. Outdoors, particularly in direct sun, and with a very efficiently draining medium, rotting, insects and diseases should be pretty much non existent. I don't know what temperatures you can expect when your "summer" arrives, but I would imagine your success rate will be at its highest during that period. You'll probably have to experiment a lot to determine where the optimum place is and what intervals you should use for the best results. Perhaps, if Paul Barden (trospero) finds this thread, he could give you better suggestions as I'm sure he's propagated under mist in a climate probably very similar to yours. You might see if he can be messaged through GW and ask for his advice. Good luck! Kim

Custom should mean that you can get what you want that mass production does not offer. Cabinets offered every 3 inches is a function of mass production over the last 40 years or so as cabinets have shifted to being made from outside sources and not by the carpenters who build the house. Most larger cabinet companies order their doors from companies like conestoga who only make doors at mass produced levels. Now conestoga makes them to any size if wanted. Your semi custom companies as a general rule build the cabinet boxes and do the finishing of the cabinet units. Semi Custom generally means they will modify the parts they build which means the face frames and the box size. So you can modify depth and add an extended stile where a filler would go otherwise. A custom company is supposed to mean in its pureist form that they do not have a book of generic sizes and instead they design and price a kitchen of any specs and build it. I personally prefer the abiltiy to work with larger companies that have more years of combined expeirence with more expensive equipment and longer warranty that is backed by the length of time the company has been around. I do not see the worry of how long the local retailer has been in business over warranty concerns when the warranty ultimately comes from the cabinet maker. Now, to be fair most large cabinet companies that are custom need something of a base line to allow a person in a showroom far from the cabinet plant to design and price a kitchen quickly. This creates the need for a product line you can work with as a designer. A book of standard sizes and configurations is needed as a baseline to work from. We end up with a long list of modifications that can be done to a cabinet to create the custom layout where the standard cabinets are modified in countless ways to create the perfect fit and still be able to arrive at a fixed price as a designer who is not an employee of the cabinet maker. I work with 2 companies that have books like this. Yet one is custom and one in my opinion is not even though they call themselves custom. Geppetto will build anything I can dream that is technically possible. Bridgewood will not. Both call themselves custom companies. One is highly modifable (Bridgewood) and one is custom Geppetto. When I meet someone that just needs the cabinets to fit just right with no fillers and wants a low price I use Bridgewood and the price is lower. When I meet someone who wants a lot of personalized look to the kitchen and needs inset door styles I use Geppetto. Hoods are another animal that is a pain. Stanicci makes nice hoods and many custom companies offer them. A true custom company will make the hood themselves with what ever look you like. Stanicci allows a designer to use a symbol on a drawing and in a 3d that has an exact price. I like a wood hood or a custom metal hood from Rangecraft hoods. Ultra modern chimney hoods just do not do it for me personally. To each his or her own I suppose. Inset door style is definetly more elegant when used with a nice finish. I think you have made the right choice.

Thank you everyone so much! I should have asked for help earlier in the process, but felt obliged to take the advice of our architect without questioning too much. We meet with our GC tomorrow to kick off demo (this week or next) so I need to have our layout finalized asap. Bmorepanic, I am definitey going to move the refrigerator down 3" from the door. I totally forgot about that once we fixed the constraint of the window. Yay! The fireplace is a conundrum- it is one of the only things that we like about our existing kitchen and we'd like to keep the wall free of upper cabinetry as much as possible to preserve the symmetry of the little windows throgh the brick. The funny part about the chimney is that the brick is 28" deep for most of the wall, but only 8" deep on the right side. So the windows and the firebox are the only features that make it feel centered to me. I'm a little stuck on the firebox recess- it is 20" deep and our plan was to recess the range 12" and use the 8" of space behind for the niche. Our architect insisted that we do something a little fancier behind the range, so we designed the herringbone inset box detail... and I've already received the box of Ann Sacks tile, so I would hate to eliminate it now. That said, Jeff Herman at Modernaire also reommended a pot rail behind the range in the niche, just like Holligator drew above. I love, love, love that idea, but DH will kill me if I don't use that expensive tile. Not sure if I can pull the range out further because our hood is already in production and it's too late to change the dimensions- it will extend 12" in front of the brick and 15" recessed. Also, if I move the range forward, then I think I would need to shorten the island, otherwise the island would shift and protrude into the non-vaulted space in the kitchen. On the island, I don't want to lose counter length available for seating, but I do want to be sure that people are comfortable. With 14" of overhang the size of the island cabinet itself is 79"x35". Is that too big of a block? I could increase the overhang, but by doing so I lose depth in the little backside storage cabinets (11" now) for infrequently used small items. What would be an ideal tradeoff? Pots and Pans- arghh! I'm planning to put them in the base cabinets to the far left and far right of the range. For the extra deep cabinet, would it be better to do four deep drawer bins (2 and 2 side by side) instead of the three cabinet doors? I was worried about storage space for big pots and pans and serving dishes and knew that could fit them all in the extra deep cabinet with doors. Not sure if they would all fit with drawers instead? I'm glad the beverage center wall looks better- okay for the uppers to be 21" above counter? I will keep them 12" deep. You guys are amazing- many thanks!!! Fireplace shot (yes, it's a dark and depressing room, but the fireplace itself is pretty cool- ceiling will be removed and vaulted to follow roofline of attic, so fireplace will be ~1.5 stories) From Pre-Remodel Existing Butler's Pantry - I think the new one will be a big improvement. From Pre-Remodel RE: Last chance Layout advice!!! Posted by: mereanne (My Page) on Sun, Aug 16, 09 at 13:56 Rhome, we can go either way with the trash pullout and the dishwasher. It's really just a question of tradeoffs and I don't have strong feelings on what is the best solution. DW on the left: - Out of the way of the range area - Close to one upper wall cabinet for dishes DW on the right: - Out of the way of the microwave and fridge area - Close to the bank of upper wall cabinets and lower pots and pans storage DH does have strong opinions (not sure what they are yet) about the DW location because with toddlers we do dishes constantly...more than anything else we do in the kitchen. We plan to do some prep in the butlers pantry area since there is a big sink there. We prep in there today all the time and love it! RE: Last chance Layout advice!!! Posted by: bmorepanic (My Page) on Mon, Aug 17, 09 at 1:29 There are only two actual difference between doors with pullouts and drawers. 1. Some pullouts have adjustable heights, drawers don't. 2. You have to do more work more carefully with pullouts - otherwise they get damaged. Open two doors fully, pull out tray, select item, push back tray carefully and completely, close doors versus open drawer, select item, push back. If a pullout tray can be made deeper, so can a drawer. If a pullout can support higher weights, so can a drawer. I have this game I play with kitchen plans. It's called get a bowl of cereal (or other normal stuff). It's simple, trace your route to get a bowl of cereal on your plan. If I have it correctly, its around 28 feet. It's the other reason I'm expressing some concern over the location of the pantry when I don't see any other storage space for food. You can do the pot rack or a tool bar inside of the niche. Keep the tile and use it! RE: Last chance Layout advice!!! Posted by: mereanne (My Page) on Mon, Aug 17, 09 at 16:02 Oh goodness, I hadn't even considered pullouts for the cabinets there. I think I have a fundamental opposition to the idea of opening a door and then pulling out a drawer, since it's a two-step process. Actually, for that particular cabinet, I was thinking about just a standard base cab with doors on the outside and a single shelf in the middle. I know I'll have loads of storage volume by using the space that way. Definitely not as ergonomic as drawers or pullouts- but compared to the lifting and hauling and tugging of my toddlers... I'm okay with bending down for this one. I think I'll put serving dishes and really big pots and pans there (we don't use them often) and then put the smaller and more frequently used saucepans in the tall drawer bins on the left. Our range is a 40" with a frytop in the middle, so I don't plan to haul out the frying pan or griddle as much as I do now. I really do like the pot rail option as a storage behind the range and talked to our GC today about doing that. Love your bowl of cereal game! What a great way to think about layout. I think I can cut down on the 28 feet through some careful planning. I'd like to store cereal, snacks, and bread in the extra deep drawers in the island (need to recheck my dimensions to be sure they're deep enough for cereal). On the shelves at the end of the island, I'm planning to store canisters of flour, sugar, rice, oatmeal, etc. and glass jars for kids snacks. Today, I store animal crackers, goldfish, nilla wafers, and raisins in glass jars and so far the kids have been really good and haven't come close to breaking the jars or abusing easy access to snack foods. That leaves canned goods, sauce jars, and boxed foods like mac n cheese in the tall pantry cupboard. Definitely a longer distance to these items, which is a compromise. Thank you for helping me think through these issues! Post a Follow-Up Your Name: Your Email Address: Subject of Posting: Message: Optional Link URL: Name of the Link: Return to the Kitchens Forum

> ok, so I definitely do care about symmetry, but also care a lot about function - this is definitely a working kitchen. Here is the same thing, except with the stove and sink symmetrical. You still get a 4' work space between the two, which is still quite roomy. >to start - the prep sink...went back and forth on whether to move it down. KD is strongly suggesting leaving it inset from the edge so that there is a "landing space" if I turn out of the ovens and want to put something down that's hot. thoughts on this? Would you turn around to set it down? Especially the with the walkway as narrow as it is, I'd not be standing directly in front of the oven when I take something out. I'd be standing a bit off to the side, and it'd be my instinct to set whatever I'm holding down on the counter next to the oven rather than the counter across from it. At any rate, I was more suggesting that you'd probably want at least one larger expanse of counter. What I showed you had two. As a baker, I'd want both large expanses because counter space gets scarce once I start setting out large baking sheets and cooling racks. But you can certainly just opt for one big counter stretch if either the kitchen window couldn't be moved or if you decide you want a landing space across from the oven. I just think you'd be sorry if you didn't have any large expanses. > I like the idea of widening the space between the stove and the sink, but that would move the sink out from directly under the window...which would look weird, right? Yes, very weird. > so just move the window? perhaps easier thought than done - we have to go before a historic preservation committee for all things related to the exterior of the front and two sides of the home. and for whatever reason, they love to get fixated on all things windows. Probably couldn't hurt to ask and in the meantime look up creative solutions for making off-center windows look centered. If you can't move it, this would be a hard decision for me. Stuff that is juuust off center bothers me a lot, but the functional difference would be huge. I have something like this in my own kitchen. I picked function, but I spent extra thought and money on how to downplay the off-center thing (our sink) and amping up the other, symmetrical features. It's not perfect, but it's fine. >so buehl suggested keeping the one trash by the prep sink, but you reco keeping one by the larger sink. i currently do not have an island or second prep sink, so i really can't say with certainty where i will end up standing/prepping more often. but i do know that i really don't think i need/want two trashes. would rather rededicate the space for one of them, but which one... I understood buehl's comment to be recommending that you have the trash in your main prep area. That could be the island or it could be between the stove and sink if you move them apart. I wouldn't bother with trash next to the main sink if the counter between the stove and sink stays only 2' wide.