I'm having a similar question. The problem I have is that I don't want my dishwasher (in the face of the island)and oven doors (on the wall of the galley) directly across from each other. What this means is that I need to shorten the space between my island and a nearby side wall/cabinets. I'm guessing that this space is only a pass-through and I might be able to get away with 33" but I know others would think I'm crazy. I'm never going to hangout in that space - it is just a quick pass . . .

I think it can be narrower, if you're not opening anything...no drawers, doors, or appliances. If it's just a walkway, then 30"-33" should be fine. As soon as you have to back up to open something....I think you need more room :)

I also think there couldn't be seating at the island if the aisle is that narrow.

But you do have to keep in mind the need for room to get an appliance (or furniture) in/out. I don't think a 24" aisle or even a 30" aisle would allow most refrigerators, for instance to be removed/brought in. Maybe if the doors are taken off, but I have admit I worry every time someone has to disassemble something and then reassemble it...did they do it right?

When we built in '95, we specified that at least one exterior door had to be 36" wide to accommodate appliances & furniture.

Now that we're starting to think about the concept of "aging in place" in our home, I do sometimes think we should have specified 36" hallways, etc. as well. What if one of us needs a wheelchair someday? Or even just a walker?

I think if I read Palimpsest's message correctly, there will be room on the other side of the island for appliances to enter the kitchen. Just not in her aisle that is a peninsula break.

In my kitchen the opposite side of the island is going to be open to the table (9 feet), the space between the island and the galley will be 48" and the seating section will be open to my greatroom. It is just the walkway that breaks the peninsula into an island that will be narrow. Not knowing what you don't know - I spent the morning with boxes and file cabinets around me a work :o)

My husband is a very big man and I just went through this this week..

36" is more than enough for him to be behind the island cooktop and cooking.......... while people pass behind him. We just tested it today. He is 6' and 275 lbs.

It worked fine.

I'm not sure I understand what we're supposed to be commenting on, so will just relate my experience.

I rented a house for a number of years which had a wide corridor kitchen. The aisle was 8', sink on one side, ovens, cooktop and fridge on the other. TOO WIDE! A real pain to cook in. I got a nice, high cart with a couple of wire shelves, wood top, and big wheels. It's about 2'x3'. It worked very well for an extra bit of counter space where the cooktop area was sorely lacking, but it was in the way. It was an excellent landing area for the fridge to sink area, or putting away groceries, but it was really really in the way. It was a great prep area, but no one could or would pass around it without moving.

Portable islands can work well in spaces that are a little too small for an island--especially because you can push them out of the way when they annoy you.

The problem I see, more than the 36" or less aisles, is that if the space is really too small for an island, it's probably too small to prevent an island from being a barrier. (We've seen this here with quite a number of floorplans.)

BTW, in writing this up, I just figured out when 36" is really just barely enough of an aisle: One person, 4-6 full bags of groceries, handbag, coat and mail, trying to get to the fridge before putting everything down because picking them all back up again isn't an option, and will translate into a lot of back and forthing. Yup. 42" minimum for carrying in groceries solo.

I liked having a 60" aisle and am uncomfortable with 36" aisles. If I have to share the 36" aisle, I'm miserable enough to leave the kitchen until the other person is done.

If somebody or something is supposed to pass down it, like a hall to the garage, I'd like it to be 36" or more.

Small funny story - we have an almost 3 x 3 foot little space between the foyer and the kitchen which serves as the basement stair landing. Everyone going to the basement has to pass the entry, into the kitchen to be able to open the door - it's that small. So once or twice a week for 11 years, I've hit my elbow on the basement door knob as I was passaging to the kitchen because it sticks out 3-4".

We took the basement door off the hinges to fixup some issues. I don't know if its ever going back because my elbows now have all their skin.

What would happen with me and a 30" aisle? Hip bruises.

This is an interesting thread. I have a thread going right now about my narrow aisles but I'd like to share my feelings on my current kitchen. It's an 11x12. Sink on one side, range on the other. Too small for an island, too big for it's own good. I don't like walking across the room with a boiling pot of pasta to get to the colander in the sink. My landing space for groceries is on the range top and anywhere else I can find. I work like a ping pong in my kitchen and if anyone else dares to be in the room, they run the risk of getting plowed over by me as I'm bouncing back and forth from one side of the room to the other. I want to pivot!
When we bought the house I thought: "It has the work triangle." It'll work!

I have a doorway to the backyard in my kitchen, it's 18 inches wide! It's a quirky old house. When I was pregnant, I would have to go out the front door and walk around. EVERYONE uses that door though, we all shimmy in sort of sideways.

Go back an re read the original post: She is not making the main walkways 24". She is just suggesting chopping off the tethered portion of the penninsula with a chainsaw. For visual effect.

When we added on our second story, we ran the stairs up between the same walls that the basement stairs went below. Our contractor grimaced at the 36" wide stairwell. Asking if we were sure about that, most stairs nowadays are at least 48" on the homes he built, you need room for 2 people, etc... He was honestly suggesting we knock down a wall, move a doorway, widen another hallway and remodel the original bathroom, and redo the floors for the wonderful banefit of a 48" stair. Sure, if I was building a new house, I would want a wider stairwell, but this was a remodel, not a new build. You make trade offs.

Most of us are remodelling our kitchens. A 24" pass through off to one side is an option. That is not the isle that she will be carrying grocery bags through. For that matter: Our older home has a 29" back door. Yeah, I have to step through sideways to do carry in my 4 bags of groceries, but I have managed to do it for the last 9 years.

Sorry for the rant, but I think some folks respond too quickly.

Yes, If you think about an island with four sides, The most important side being labeled "1", the second "2", down to "4":

The only place you could do this effectively is side "4" which would be one of the ends and *not the one that is the primary walkway, nor the one that is a working/appliance aisle. Theoretically, it could be as narrow as 18" but I think much smaller than that would be problematic with knocking things off and cleaning the floor there. Visually, I also thing once it *looked* impossible to walk through the point would be lost.

In effect the island would be working more like a peninsula but with an opening. Kind of like when people chose to leave open corners in kitchen design rather than have counter runs that turn corners. Limited indications, but it works for some designs.

I thought about this looking at contemporary design that sometimes utilizes floating walls. A local museum has a few walls that do not connect by a matter of 12" -24"...not really meant to walk through but giving the illusion of space and circulation.

palimpsest wrote: In effect the island would be working more like a peninsula but with an opening.

I'm not sure what the advantage to that would be. I admit I'm biased--I prefer peninsulas and chose a peninsula over an island for my kitchen.

I guess I would wonder what advantages you would see to have a tight island over a peninsula?

I think 24" for the unused side of the island could be OK. You have to work with what you have in remodels. On our main pathway side (and DW, main sink, dish storage, etc) our island pathway is around 46" wide(forgot to measure it). On the range side from lip of range to edge of granite it's 34". I'm not a small woman and there's room for multiple cooks here. Many times there are 3 of us. On the other side of the island it's 36" to wall - 2nd path thru kitchen plus under counter frig, drawers, etc. It's a bit tight but works. I think having 24" and not a wall right there will be OK but it also depends on how big everyone is. For a larger person that may seem as hindrance. It could possibly effect resale because it's not "conventional" or rule out larger people. If that doesn't effect you go with what you want.

I would mock this up in the garage (or kitchen). Use boxes and see how it feels and flows. We lived with our island for over a week moving it a half inch or so every few days to find the perfect placement. I never had an island. During the mock up at first it was difficult coming into the room and running into it but now I love it.

I keep looking at small tables and carts as options for kitchens. When we began, I really wanted a staple-shaped kitchen with a movable fourth wall--a farm table or a narrow cart. I wanted to put it into a "stay out" position when visitors intrude into kitchen, an everyday position in middle of kitchen, and in a position to create a buffet line. For a number of reasons, mostly dealing with bad advice about venting a stove, we ended up with a different configuration, but I still think fondly of that movable peninsula/island of my original plans.

My mother-in-law's 1960s kitchen had a peninsula with an end piece on a piano hinge which could be lifted to cut off traffic and extend the counter to the adjacent wall when this was needed. It also created a barrier between kitchen and attached dining area at Thanksgiving, etc. The kitchen was surprisingly efficient for a small kitchen--she had four sons and lots of relatives at some meals. But kitchen could only hold 2-3 people at a time, tops. Best for one cook.

Here is the concept drawn out.

Remember we are not talking about a big space here where there are many options. This is a house that is 15 feet wide and the kitchen is 12 feet wide. I designed a kitchen in a house where the Maximum interior width of the house was 11 feet. (The entire lot was 12'wide)

So this could be a solution where the *only other solution is a one person U shaped kitchen or dead and galley. This could turn it into an occasionally 2 person, or a 1.5 person kitchen.

The first drawing is typical existing, and the most common solution is to take the wall down and create a peninsula kitchen rather than fully enclosed (not drawn). Solution two, a slight tweaking of the space to move the fridge.

If you tried to put an island with ideal clearances all around, it would be too small. Having a tight clearance on *one end allows a larger island, and a tight but usuable second means of egress. It could also visually open the space in an already small house.
{{!gwi}}

Could you have a hinged counter here to close the peninsula? Sure. Could you have a floating cart that parked in the spot most of the time? Sure. Is this going to be the main way in and out of the kitchen? Nope. Is it a way to keep a second person from being trapped in the kitchen? Yep.

Palimpsest...I see what you mean, but is there adequate work room on the non-DW side of the sink? Without a wall there, I envision glasses/dishes falling off onto the floor b/c someone put something there b/c it was the closest side...and then **smash** onto the floor if some bumps it.

I also think you underestimate (or overestimate!) people...if there's an opening there, they will use it...especially children as they come running through the kitchen b/c it's a "shortcut" (at least to them!) And then there's the "ring around the rosy" that children like to play around obstacles... (which is a possible other reason that even 36" may not be enough!)

I have worked in a 36" aisle kitchen (my SIL...the same one w/the barrier island and the ridiculous seating on the refrigerator side...so bad that she's taken out the stools!)...and it's a problem. I disagree that it's easy to work in that aisle and have others working there as well...even passing by. First, people have to inch by...and my SIL is short & petite, my brother is tall and relatively thin...and I've seen them try to maneuver in their kitchen...not easy! I'm also tall...average "size" and I don't like anyone else there if I'm working there. Her kitchen is just too tight. If you really think it's wide enough (this is to others, not you Palimpsest), then I suggest you actually live with it for a week or two...and attempt to do everything you normally do while using the narrow aisle...put up boxes, not tape b/c tape does NOT give you the true "feel" or functionality. And don't just "try it" or even use it for just a day or two...really live with it! We did that w/39" aisles as a "test for an island" (we used our kitchen table) and realized "no way!". "Pivoting" is nice, but only if you're the only person working there and there's no traffic.

BTW...we have approx 33" b/w the end of the counter on our peninsula and the handles on the refrigerator and two people can only be there at the same time if you "squish". Yes, we're a tall family and our bodies are probably correspondingly "bigger" than a short or even average-height family...but they're not that much bigger. If someone is in the refrigerator, no one can pass by. However, it's not that often & we live with it. Do I wish it were wider? Definitely! (It was supposed to be 42", but due to measuring and other errors by our KD & GC, it's not.)

Rookie_2010...if you put the Prep & Cooking Zones + Prep Sink + Trash pullout on one side and the Cleanup Zone + Refrigerator on the other side, an 11' wide kitchen can actually be great! Mine works so well that I'm almost glad I don't have room for an island! I made mine into a small "U" (long base, short legs) + another run on the opposite wall.

The "U" contains my Prep Zone w/Prep Sink (peninsula corner), Cooking Zone, and even a small Baking Center.

The other (straight) side has the refrigerator, Cleanup Zone (DW + sink) and Double Ovens.

Oh!! I told you I didn't understand the question before. Too much sleep deprivation, I guess.

With the explanation, yeah, go for it! I often wished for just that in my old kitchen. It had a huge peninsula for a big G shape, and being stuck in the G was miserable.

You could also get cute and install a counter extension under the island top that pulls out into that little open space, or a flip up or down bar style counter. And you could even put some between the studs storage in that area.

The only thing is that I'd want the island a little wider on the short side than in your sketch. I've worked on 2' surfaces and things roll off the back. When there's a rail they hit the rail and the things in front of them roll off the front. In my opinion, it needs to be at least 28-30" to be front to back, especially with the sink there.

The answer to the question about being enough room on the non DW side of the sink in the down and dirty drawing above...no, there probably isnt. Making sure that this worked as an option may involve some tweaking, may mean the island has a rim around it, something. I don't like fully exposed sinks anyway.

The current kitchens in these houses (they vary slightly) have as little as 3" to one side of the sink, when the DW is on the inside of the U. Its not uncommon for kitchens here to have a single 2 foot clear countertopwork area, period.

I think this forum operates primarily within a suburban paradigm. There would be no reason for such economies in a suburban house.

These houses are 16 feet wide on the outside. The yard is 16 x 10? and that is generous, here. (Usually there is none). In a development of 24 houses (mixed 2 and 3 BR) I have not seen a single child. People with children do not buy these houses. Often in the RE adds you will see these listed showing a crib in one of the rooms. Once a child is in the picture, people get the #377 out. There is no play space, the public schools are horrendous, etc. There is also a tendency of urban dwellers with kids (the ones I know anyway) to put the kitchen strictly off limits when it is down to the serious cooking. Stay out or get stepped on, plain and simple. No means No.

Again, I came up with this idea looking a non-tethered walls in modernist construction. Is it an idea for a large kitchen? No.

Ooooh! Ooooh! This is exactly what we did! We were going to have a straight galley, about 20' long but then decided to leave 40" of space on one end.

Forgive the extra pics and words, just copied it from the html code on my blog. Anyway, the "island" is 15' long with full depth cabs on both sides. There is a 40" opening, which is making maneuvering this mass much much easier. Perpendicular to that run of cabs are some bumped out wall cabs mounted as lowers, where we keep the dishes. I would have gone with a 36" opening, but because of the perpendicular dish cabinet, I decided to make the opening a bit larger.

36" should work! Have fun!!

[caption id="attachment_4604" align="aligncenter" width="1024" caption="Our kitchen tile. White, Mint Ice, Meadow, Porcelain. Subway tile with get gray grout, glass mosaic will get an off white."]

[caption id="attachment_4605" align="aligncenter" width="1024" caption="Our granite table. Base custom made by Gainesville Ironworks. Top Sapphire Brown granite."]

[caption id="attachment_4606" align="aligncenter" width="1024" caption="Sapphire Brown Granite....not my first choice. Not my second choice. Third string rookie."]

[caption id="attachment_4607" align="aligncenter" width="768" caption="Browns in the granite marry well with the chestnut stained cherry cabinets, although the flash kind of ruined the moment."]

Particularly in the thumbnail kitchen - I really wouldn't.

I like the moved walkway and the general plan, but I'd rather see something like cable or pipe shelves stacked for dish storage with counter and cabinet underneath in that area - adds texture, work area and storage. I like style, but I'd want a nice piece of counter at the sink.

Or turn the kitchen and have a small galley, the 8 foot wide kind, running in the opposite direction without adding a wall to divide it from the "hall"; still removing the other wall. Move the door way just a little out from the corner and add a matching doorway two feet out from the other blank wall. Then 12-14" wide shelving the entire blank hall wall. Make it interesting looking - like tile the entire wall before adding the shelves. I'm thinking architectural shelving (if that's a phrase?) rather than cabinet based shelves.

No one is trapped and it reads even more open.

That is another option:)

That entire floor of the house contains a utility room, a powder room behind the rangewall in the original configuration and a dining area.

The second floor is a living area that opens to a patio with a separate den/guest bedroom. Third floor is two bedrooms and full bath.

I am looking at a more comprehensive option:
I am considering making the small powderroom a 3/4 bath and creating a slighly larger utility room, an office area, and making the current dining room the Den/Guest room. (Better since it has its own bath on the same floor)

Then the kitchen moves upstairs to the former den, (its a split entry house: stairs to kitchen regardless) and opens to the living room and subsequently the patio area. The stack is right there, so no Major plumbing involved. I moved a kitchen back to front in another house of similar arrangement and it added less than $2000 to the entire budget compared to leaving things in the same place.

In general this untethered peninsula idea is just an idea, not neccessarily the best solution for this specific project.

My mother's kitchen has exactly 24" wide x 30" deep on top of the dishwasher and wall behind (it's a passthrough), between the sink and SZ for all prep, and a shallow counter at the far end for landingish from the one box deep pantry cabinets there. Oh, and there's about 18" next to the stove for the mixer. We've cooked for 50 in that kitchen. It takes management, and extra cold storage in the garage, but the prep area is adequate as shown, except for the rolling off the back part.

You don't really need a lot of counter space. I was just thinking that it would be simple to add some convertible counter in the walk area. And I can't tell you how much I've lost over the back side of the 24" wide island cart. :)

I think the 24" walkway to "open" the kitchen would work fine if there's 36" truly clear on the other side. You only need to be able to get a person through the smaller opening. You need the truly clear aisle if you ever want to be able to move an appliance or piece of furniture through there.

I love the move the kitchen upstairs idea! I'm assuming that there's room for a decent dining table in the living room? It sounds much more like the way people live nowadays, and has a better flow. The only downside is no bathroom on the kitchen/entertainment floor, but that's totally normal for your area, isn't it? When I visited Philadelphia as a child, my aunt's house had only one bathroom, on the second storey of three. Her house was quite a bit bigger too.

Palimpset,

Not sure if this will answer your question...I did read the entire thread & saw your sketches, but confess I'm not very good at reading & interpreting sketches.

My pre-remodeled kitchen (built in 1978) measured 13x11 and was U-shaped. The long arm of the U, that one walked around to enter the kitchen, held the dishwasher and double sink. The center of the U held the range, and the other arm of the U held the refirgerator, plus standard cabinets.

Although kitchen is small, with no room for expansion, when I remodeled, I really wanted an island to update the look. My kitchen designer was the woman who owned the custom cabinet company that built my cabinets, and I think she's a wizard -- in her 60s, and very creative. I used her concept and have been absolutely delighted with the results. I'm posting more photos here than I normally would, because I think the link to my photos I the Kitchen Blog has broken.

The entire kitchen space is still 13 x 11. The island measures 74.5 inches x 44 inches. It holds the double sink & the dish drawers. What I love is the absolute functionality of this design...far more than any other, much larger, kitchen I've ever had. Everything is only 2-3 steps away. Unloading groceries from the island to the refrigerator behind is an absolute dream. Moving from fridge to range to sink is so easy...2-3 steps. There are 2 island stools for casual eating or guests to camp out while I'm cooking. After 5 years of living and doing a LOT of cooking in this kitchen, I'm still delighted with its functionality and its look.

I hope this is info you will find helpful.

OK -- for some stupid reason, I can't upload the photos. GW keeps sending me to LOGIN page, to re-enter my password, etc. I'm going to submit this now, so I don't lose the message. Sorry.

This island measures 74.5 inches x 44 inches. The kitchen consists of the island & the 2 walls you see in photos below. I converted the former eat-in area to a pantry, with a reading nook, so I can read while I wait for pots to boil. Very easy kithcen to use. I do LOTS of entertaining, and my guests love to hang out in the kitchen. The family room is at the opposite end....so it is an open room. I hope these photos show how much flexibility even a kitchen on the small side (13x11) has.

Here's one that Susan Serra suggested for the Dream Home Diaries New York Times

Her little space is for visual purposes only I think since you can't walk through there

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2058/1876633183_5d104a8f89_b.jpg

Here is a link that might be useful:

Yep, that is a rather extreme example. The storage would have to be turned for access, but she is trying to loosen up the space.

Here is Farnsworth House (from the site, photograph by Jon Miller). Farnsworth House is the much admired and much hated minimalist masterpiece in Illinois. This is another extreme example, but there isnt a partition in this house that touches anything (well the utilities and bath are enclosed in the core). The partition at the end neither contacts the perimeter, nor is it an expected entry point to the space behind it, thats off to the left. But tethering it to the perimeter--or the main core--would cause it to lose something.
{{!gwi}}