The discussion reminds me again how personal these choices are. I remember a wonderful phrase from a book (by Booth Tarkington, I think) which went something like this: a mild unpleasantness for one young man may seem the sheer brink of hell to another. That's applicable here as you can see from the posts above. For some of us, a self-cleaning oven is on the list of stove "must-haves." A stove won't even be considered without it. For others, like me, it was on my list of "wanna-haves" rather than "must-haves." (IOW, I miss having a self-cleaning oven but think I can live without it). Others, such as Nunya, are completely indifferent to self-cleaning; seemingly, he wouldn't use it if he had it. I say all of this because opinions here at GW can sometimes sound like dogma -- because I think X, you should, too, and your contrary thoughts are mere subjective preferences. It has to be said that subjective preferences are important. They are none-the-less valuable for being subjective. Your own preference absolutely must be part of the process of choosing a stove. Just because I find manual oven cleaning is "not too bad" does not mean you should find it that way, too. So, hopefully, the range of opinions is taken as helping you sort out our preferences rather than as telling you what to so. There is only way to get better informed than this exchange of opinions and that is by actually cleaning an oven in a stove you are considering. But, even if you live someplace where dealer showrooms have operating stoves you can test out, do you think they'll be demonstrating that aspect anytime soon? ;>) When I bought my NXR, I really had no idea how easy or how onerous "myself-cleaning" would be. That's one of the reasons I bought it from Costco. If "myself-cleaning" turned out to a royal PITA, I could simply return the stove for a full refund and get the self-cleaning induction range that I otherwise would have purchased. So, when you go shopping, it may be helpful to be up-front with the vendors about your uncertainty on this issue and to have a back-up candidate.

I've never used a recipe for meatloaf and wonder if anyone else makes it ad hoc every time. I start with 2 eggs, beaten, and crumbled end pieces of bread that I've saved in the freezer. I add some milk and a large squirt of ketchup. Then I put in adobo and dried oregano, basil, and thyme (sometimes I add other herb combos). I mix that up well and then add about 2 1/2 lbs. of 80 percent lean ground beef and diced onions and green bell pepper that I've sauteed in olive oil and cooled. I salt and pepper the meat, add some extra olive oil and mix it all together. I form it into a large loaf, cover it with tomato sauce and cook it in a baking dish at 375 for about an hour or slightly more. It has a lot of liquid it it when it comes out of the oven and is juicy and delicious. Sometimes I get a better do than other times but it's always very good.

"dcarch - I don't have scientific answers to your questions, but having quasi-followed Appliances over the years I've NEVER seen anyone question that electric boils faster than gas. " I will take your word for it since I have not visited that Forum. The key is to locate actual controlled studies to confirm if that is an empirical truth or one of the many anecdotal kitchen myths. I will say this again, I am not claiming that it is not true; I am saying that I have questions which I myself can't answer. "Evidently a gas flame is an even poorer delivery boy. " Either that or whoever tested gas was not aware that "watched pot never boils" :-) "Are you saying when properly adjusted, natural gas isn't a clean burning fuel? That'd be news to me, too. " Not what I meant. If gas is such a poor deliverer of heat then all the extra BTUs will be wasted in heating the air, and air conditioning is a big cost in restaurants. Gas also require an immense amount of make-up air for combustion, and to exhaust air for a restaurant to the roof thru fire proofed welded steel ducts in a high rise office building in NYC is incredibly expensive. In addition, electric cooking appliances are much easier for cleaning, and cleaning is a big problem for commercial kitchens. Why don't they use electric? "I'd guess there are many factors involved. Some I've already touched upon, and economics would certainly come into play." This heated debate really boils down (PUN + PUN!) to one single question: Except cooking in a TV studio, why no chefs prefer electric for cooking? dcarch

nomorebluekitchen - For oven bacon, I use a half sheet pan lined with parchment paper (easier cleanup) and lay the bacon strips out side by side . I cook at 350 or lower to cut down on shrinkage. This is how we always did it in every restaurant I worked in. Although usually in the restaurants we would partially cook it this way and then finish on the griddle. I cook it this way at home because it generally creates less mess and you don't have to turn it and look after it the same way. caryscott - I'll have to try the Piller's taste Better than Bacon, thanks for the tip.