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shoebox_life

Tough choices for a small kitchen

Shoebox_life
11 years ago

My kitchen is roughly 10' x 6.5' - a fine size for a bathroom. The original layout used a 24" wide cooktop and oven, and only had cabinets on two walls.

Sadly we cannot change the location of the fridge, sink, or stove. We can slide them sideways a bit or change their size.

We're considering a few options (see the pics) and I'd love to have your thoughts on them.

1) We can open a window into the living room to keep an eye on kids, chat with guests, etc. We would add floor-to-ceiling storage outside the kitchen by the entrance and the window to make up for the lost cabinets.



2) We can leave a ~2' gap between the sink cabinet and the stove to access the dead corner and a new window. It could fit a trolley cart.



3) We can add larger appliances. With at least a 2" gap between the fridge and the cooktop, we can still fit 14" diameter pots on the burners by the fridge.

What would you do? (if you were stuck in this space...)

Comments (25)

  • palimpsest
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had this same kitchen, essentially. I used an 18" DW to gain some space, and a relatively tall, counter depth refrigerator--I did use a full size 30" range.
    I have some storage on top of the fridge that I can only reach with step-stool or ladder. I have a pull out at the bottom of the blind cabinet so I can store things I don't need much there. I find that with movable carts, that they move when I don't want them to and things fall off around the gap.

  • ginny20
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm afraid I'm not one of the layout gurus, but I have a couple thoughts. I'd try to make things serve double duty. For instance, it you get a 30" induction cooktop or range instead of gas or radiant electric, any part of it that isn't actually cooking can be used, gently, as counter space. Also, for some sinks you can get fitted cutting boards that go on top. Pull-out lap boards can be built in right under the counter but above the lower drawers. They are like pull-out cutting boards and only take 1" of vertical space, but they can be pulled out as needed to provide additional counter space.

    My thought is that if you have alternative counter surfaces, you can accommodate larger appliances.

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  • twodogs_sd
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a fan of small kitchens, so bear with my lack of dismay ;) I do respect your parameters (the things you say you can't move), but I do urge you to consider how much or in what ways you can move them. For example, what if you considered more of a galley layout, where the sink remains largely where it is (moved more to the window), and the stove was moved to that same wall (this is more movement than you are saying you can do). The refrigerator stays where it is, but is turned 90 degrees (so facing the sink wall). Walking into the kitchen, the refrig is to the right, but you are facing what is largely your full counter space. The small wall on the left as you walk in could be floor to ceiling storage (facing either the sink wall or the refrigerator).

    That above suggestion is largely a thought experiment, of course, but it can be interesting to see if the same things in the same space suddenly make better sense for how you work if oriented in a different way.

  • Shoebox_life
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great suggestions, thanks folks!

    Gas is included in the monthly maintenance and it's what most buyers here want, so I'm sticking with it. It hurts because we could have placed an electric range anywhere in the kitchen. Extending the gas line isn't allowed in my building.

    Buyers seem to expect certain appliances here in NYC. Dishwashers are considered a must. I'm not sure if 18" vs 24" matters to buyers - my rule of thumb is that it should work for 2 parents and 2 small children.

    People complain about 24" ranges, but 30" pass muster.

    The window seems ok to everyone, even if it has stove burners in front of it?

  • wallycat
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am also not one of the design gurus here so take what I say with a grain of salt.
    Can you move the oven under the cooktop and make that wall where the oven is a big pull out pantry?
    I like the idea of the pull out shelf very much. I had a "bread cutting" board in my old house in WI and it was next to the stove; pulled it out for a landing spot and it worked great.
    Can you set up any kind of shelf space opposite the oven to hold a microwave? As much as I am not a fan of microwaves over the cooktop, it would certainly get it out of the way and give you some exhaust (can you even make an outside exhaust?).

  • Kathy Rivera
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think you absolutely need an 18" DW. If you want to spend $$, apparently the European ones can hold as much as a 24". But anyone in NYC who is going to buy that apartment is going to appreciate that the kitchens there are small and an 18" DW is a better use of space.

    If you do the 18" DW, then you could get a 30" sink base and use the corner as a blind base cabinet accessible via the cabinet on the stove wall. And you can get one of those fancy pullouts for the base cab that allows access all the way in the back. Then the stove wall could be an 18" cab (the front of the BBC) then a 3" filler pullout (which would require a 3/4" panel next to stove but you have the space). I'm not a big fan of the cart b/c I feel it chops up your prep space there in the corner (I doubt the surface would be completely even with the countertops and I picture food dropping on the floor all the time) and seems a bigger pain to move to access the corner

  • ginny20
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't dismiss induction too quickly. I get the thing about gas being free but not electricity, but induction doesn't use as much electricity as a regular radiant cooker. Most people still want gas because they haven't heard of induction. After it becomes more common, some will still prefer gas, but many will appreciate the benefits of induction. Also, don't NYC apts often have limited venting capabilities? Gas, putting off more heat, requires better venting than induction.

    If there is one thing I learned from GW, it was to question all my assumptions. You may still choose gas, but at least you'll be sure it was the best choice.

    I don't think it matters if part of the cooktop is in front of the window. The distances are small enough that storage right outside the kitchen is still closer than within some large kitchens. The window may make the kitchen feel more spacious.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In such a small space, I would think you'd lose too much upper cab with the window, and I'm not ok with the window over the gas cooktop as I think it could be dangerous. And gas included or not, I'd seriously consider an induction cooktop, esp if it gives you the flexibility on appliance placement. In a small space, every inch counts. Also, I'd look into plumbing options for flexibility on sink location...with the flexible pipes and hoses they use now, it may be feasible to gain so motion there.

  • ginny20
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're right AnnieD - I wasn't thinking about the safety of gas burners in front of the window opening to the next room. I think you have a point. (Another reason to consider induction.)

  • twodogs_sd
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    By the way, if you want to stick with the gas stove, that becomes the one thing that literally cannot move (by your statement that extending the gas line is not allowed). I have a camper with a stove bumped up against the refrigerator, and it makes that side of the stove nearly unusable. If you want to keep the stove, and if it must remain in place, can you move the refrigerator to another location? I agree with the idea that the sink may be more moveable than you think.

    Do you intend to vent the stove? I would think that precludes having a window above the stove (I don't think you gain much with that window, either). But is it even a window, or is it a pass-through? If you're willing to put in a pass-through, can you actually open that wall entirely, and treat the stove area as an island?

    With the thought of the stove being a fixed location, can you consider moving the sink to that wall, then the opposite wall holds refrigerator and storage?

  • ControlfreakECS
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know why you don't center the range between fridge and corner. That would give you 12" on each side, correct? You'd lose the blind corner, I know, but I would never want to work right against the fridge, and that 12" would make a huge difference. I would do a pull out 12" cabinet instead of drawers or standard base.

    I'm torn about the window personally, perhaps because I don't understand the rest of your space. I understand the desire to not feel so closed in. At the very least, I'd hang a pot rack there so you don't completely lose the storage.

  • dan1888
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You have a challenging space and it may benefit from some tough or innovative choices.
    As you view your elevation remove the wall between the living room and kitchen and the wall section and header to the right of the frig.
    Extend the wall to the right of the entrance to give you a 30" interior dimension.
    Place the frig against that wall all the way out from the back wall, switching it from one side of the kitchen to the other. Because of your space constraints a Summit(NYC) 24" frig with bottom freezer is the compromise. It's a stainless $1k Vestfrost unit almost silent from Denmark.
    Run a 30x30 counter next to the frig cutting the corner a little straight back to the rear wall. This will give you prep space for two people to work together.
    Run an upper cabinet from the front of the frig box in panel angled across the counter. This is plate storage.
    Locate a small micro under counter below the side of this counter running to the wall. Undercounter next to the frig can be a silverware drawer and shelves below. This area is not a standard space and would need some custom configuration.
    Leave 36 inches of open back wall.
    Start a 24" deep counter along the window wall with an 18" dishwasher like a Miele. Place the sink next- undermount stainless 16x20 zero radius turned sideways. Tail the counter to the wall and locate the faucet like the Kohler Karbon near the rear right sink corner. This gives two people access to the sink at one time.
    Replace the window with a sealed dual or triple pane picture if it cannot be move to the right.
    Place a corner upper cabinet above the dishwasher for glass storage with a glass insert door if you can move the window. If you cannot move the window you may have to try something innovative. I'm thinking of a frameless glass shower visually. Maybe the bottom and top in hardwood or anything with the side to the left of the sink and door in frameless glass. Certainly more design work on this unit would be necesarry.
    Now we get to the cooking and eating space. This is a rectagular island. The side nearest the sink counter begins 24 inches from the wall as this is not a walkway. The corner is cut across on a 30 degree angle to become the front of a 24 or 28" induction cooktop like an AEG zoneless with a 27" oven like a Miele or Gagg below. AEG(Electrolux) are CE certified for electrical hookups including US specs and can be shipped from the UK as they weigh 30 pounds. Check UKRunner for pricing. You get a bumpout of the cooktop with small countertop wings on the portion coming out. The oven is boxed in below with panels leaving the bottom of these counter section untrimmed or trimmed to match other overhangs on the opposite seating area side of the island. Three people can now access these units. A fold out stool can be built in under the left side overhang for the cooktop. It would be nice to have at least a Panasonic bath vent fan in the ceiling above this area.
    The counter to the right of the bumpout runs to the outside dimension of the old frig wall or less for end seating if that fits in, To the right of the cooktop drawers below offer storage for silverware and/or utensils and pots and pans.
    Make the width of the island 36 to 48 with a possible curved or facetted side as is right for the space now used by the table in your plan.

  • rmtdoug
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Given the way induction is progressing, I bet if you capped the gas line and put in induction, nobody would blink an eye if you ever sold.

    18" dishwasher and tall skinny fridge would help a lot. That's the way I am going in a house that will never be big enough for more than 2 adults and 2 children.

  • steph2000
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you haven't seen BrooklynGalley's kitchen, I really recommend you check it. She showcases a tall, skinny fridge and an 18" DW, along with how to make a small galley kitchen work big.

    I'm looking into both options for my own remodel.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Brooklyn Galley kitchen

  • dan1888
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a frig link.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Vestfrost frig

  • dan1888
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the cooktop link

    Here is a link that might be useful: 28 inch AEG Maxisense

  • davidro1
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i haven't read this thread thoroughly yet.
    I see you are getting loads of advice. I'm sure it's all good.

    I can confirm that an 18"w DW, a 24" fridge and an induction cooktop are all good things for a little shoebox space.


    Ikea has a 30" induction cooktop for $999. All glass. No stainless steel trim. An induction cooktop IS counter space too. Without any trim, it's even easier to slide things around on and off it.

    The cp 171 fridge is the best choice for several reasons.

    You can remove the wall ovens entirely, and just have a Breville Smart Oven.

    Nothing wrong with a small gas hob too.

    Post a floor plan again. There are parts of it that I haven't figured out yet.

  • herbflavor
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NYC? do a wrap of the space in counter and get under counter fridge/freezer drawers,smaller single bowl sink....18 in european dishwasher, the best 24 or 30 in range you can afford. The most valuable commodity would be counterspace here:forego the pantry/larger sink.Do a few wall cabs as needed. Make a sleek,streamlined space that remains small but with good small appliance units. Beautiful counters/lighting!! And your statement about being "stuck" tells me you will at some point be "unstuck", by selling or moving elsewhere[that's just how life is]...I would not cut the hole in the wall, and definitely keep it modern and small in the original footprint.....future NYC residents will understand efficiency in a small space,and appreciate it,perhaps want it,as opposed to changing it up and comes off a little awkward or out of place.

  • AnnaA
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, the induction cooktop does give you the versatility of extra counter space to use gently. That extra wiggle room is wonderful.

    We capped our gas line below the floor, and were assured that if some future home owner wanted it back, it would be easily doable.

    Can't wait to see what you eventually decide.

  • catlover5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shoe, I too have a small kitchen, 9'2 x 8'5. I struggled with my layout. I can tell you that we went with smaller appliances and sink base - an 18 DW where we had none before, a 33 in fr down to a 24 in LG bottom freezer but kept the 30 in stove. We almost went with a corner sink to have slightly more countertop but ended up keeping the sink in front of the window but did go down from a 33 in double bowl to a 27 in single bowl cab. The DW is not in yet but I know I will be pleased with it. The smaller FR is fine for us as is the sink. Good luck to you!

  • BalTra
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hi Shoe,
    My kitchen is smallish, (though huge compared to yours!)
    I've always loved cooking with gas over electric. After spending a week with my parents and cooking on their induction cooktop, I'm a 100% convert.
    I'm cooking on my very own new one now, using 1/2 of the cooktop space for my bowl of pancake batter, spatula, cinnamon and plate for finished pancakes. Pancake batter spills don't get cooked on to the cooktop because it stays cool - only the pan is hot.
    Induction is as responsive to gas.
    My kitchen stays cool.
    My kid can cook with me without worry of clothes catching on fire or burning or burning of skin on an empty but still-hot burner.
    The extra countertop space, easy cleanup, cool kitchen - all worth it!
    Love your space, by the way!

  • carybk
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just wanted to second the idea of a sink that comes with a cutting board that fits over the top of it-- very useful for prep and handy for the disposal (assuming you don't compost in NYC).

  • alvmusick
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shoebox!

    Never feel "stuck" in that lovely small kitchen! Your kitchen is actually larger than mine (Steph2000 links to my kitchen above) and perhaps you might consider (as suggested above) a galley layout as well. Looking at your sketches it might be a good option for you.

    (1) I would create two galley aisles on the 10 foot walls (mine are only 8.75 feet long and my kitchen is only slightly wider at 6.75 feet).

    (2) Walking in your entry on the left, I would consider a corner sink (search GW I remember seeing a number of ideas) - or regular sink - under the window since you mentioned you can't move the sink to far. Next to that, an 18" DW (I measured my 18" Bosch open and your walkway looks like it could be wide enough) or a DW drawer with a drawer for storage under. The rest of that side could be wall cabinets up to the ceiling with lots of drawers and prep space. By the window, you could do open shelving to the ceiling for the wall cabinets to let in some light. I love your plants so you should try to keep your windowsill plants and have some fun there! Maybe build some small shelving under the window as well since it looks like you have a small bump out.

    (3) On the opposite side, I would have a 30" stove/oven or range (as you mentioned, smaller is harder to work with). I would also have a tall and skinny fridge (my Leibherr is 80" high and 24" deep - truly counter-depth). Depending on how you work around the kitchen, you could move the fridge and stove/oven/range around to suit your needs. Again, I would have cabinets to the ceiling on the walls (and over the fridge), and drawers, drawers, drawers. I also have a 9" pull-out pantry and a 6" spice drawer cabinet - don't be afraid to go small on the cabinets - they are truly functional.

    (4) Play around with your current entryway - with a galley (or U shape), you would have to readjust the location. We chose to widen ours to match the edge of our count-top and we cut-out an arch reaching to the edge of our wall cabinets on top. Although the space to walk is small compared to large kitchens (28 inches at the entry, then 30" inside the kitchen), it doesn't feel or look small. It also let's light filter in and out of the kitchen.

    (5) I think with your measurements you could also do a wrap-around U kitchen plan (also mentioned above) with the sink centered on the window wall or a corner sink under the window. You would then have 2 corners to work with, but the two remaining walls would still give you plenty of cabinet/appliance space. I played around with a U shape, but my long window made it very awkward.

    Here are some photos of my kitchen from today. I went to the farmers market and picked up our CSA share. My husband is also prepping for our hiking/canoeing camp so there are pans on the stove (sorry, not yet washed) and the dehydrator on the counter. There is plenty of room for all of this and more!



    Here is our window with open shelving and I am experimenting with some windowsill herbs.


  • williamsem
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Brooklyngalley, got to say yours is my favorite kitchen so far. It's nothing like the one I am working with, it's not in colors I am looking for, but the extreme transformation and the combination of function and clean looks amazes me every time. I always think to myself if you can do that, I should be able to make something useful out of my kitchen!

  • babushka_cat
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ditto -brooklyn's kitchen is amazing!

    just wanted to put a pitch in for the 18" miele dishwasher. I considered that one (not quite as small, but i also have a small kitchen) but was able to go with the 24" miele. that machine is THE BEST. love it!

    also just wanted to suggest you consider custom cabinetry. i was able to stretch the bounds of my small kitchen by going custom. While the cost was a bit more the extra functionality it provided made it well worth the extra cost. by doing so i was able to get a full 30" fridge, 30" sink, 24" dishwasher and trash pull out drawer all along my short wall, that would never have fit otherwise.

    good luck!