I'm hurting for you! You can't adjust doorways, or have that wall on the side of the steam oven flat-framed, or SOMEthing just to get the 2 measly inches? In the plan the dbl oven seems to be about 8" from the back stairs doorway, so would seem there might be 2" to spare there...Is that not the case?

Thanks, Rhome. My contractor is going to stop by the house on Monday and take a look at the doorways. The drawing is a little deceiving (having been done by a total amateur, me). There's exactly 5 inches between the alcove and each doorway. It's an old house, so there's plaster and lath in there. I don't know enough about building to know just how small you can make those walls or what it would cost to take them out and rebuild them. I'm just so thankful we caught this now and not later.

Not sure if you want to consider not having all your ovens together. What if you moved the steam oven to the right of the cooktop?

Another option would be to play around with the freezer/refrigerator columns instead of a single unit. You might have more options by splitting those apart. (Although I like mine as a single unit.)

jayne

i'd re-think that layout bigtime. your oven wall is way on the other side of the kitchen with nowhere to put anything down on. how will you open the oven doors when you're holding a sheetpan full of stuff to put in the oven? where will the hot stuff land as you take it out?

and i wouldn't ever want to have an oven wall in such a high traffic zone like you've got.

use this opportunity to re-think the whole she-bang.

Thanks for the input Ed, I know the oven placement is a problem and it's been discussed before but I haven't been able to find a better place them. I have a 24" landing next to the double ovens (under the steam oven) or I can use the peninsula behind it. If I swap the ovens and fridge, then the fridge (which I use much more than the ovens) is too far from the prep and cooking zones and also in the aisle. I have been working on this layout for a year and can't find a way to get it perfect and keep what's really important to me. The best option would be to have a range, which I have now, but I want induction and DH hates the Diva range. Of course, I won't let him read this, because he really wants fire (Bluestar or Wolf) and this will just give him more fuel for his argument against induction.

We don't do a lot of oven cooking, though I hope to use the steam oven a lot, so giving up the double ovens won't be too much of a hardship (except that I got a great deal on them and now have to buy a new one), but a single oven would still be on that wall. Believe it or not, the oven I currently use the most (a small wall oven, not the range oven) opens across the back door and it's never been a problem, but boy does it look bad on paper!

I am open to all suggestions, if someone sees a better way to configure this kitchen. I know what I have here isn't perfect, but until today, it was the closest I could come to getting both the funcion and look that I want.

Thanks to you, too Jayne. I was looking into separating the ovens, but just read over in the appliance forum, that the gagg combi doesn't lend itself well to undercounter installaion. I also can't afford the space it would require to separate my refrigeration, but it's a great idea. Can you see something I'm missing?

The things I really don't want to give up are the combi, my baking hutch and some kind of kitchen seating. I love the symmetry on the cooktop wall but would sacrifice it for a design that works better.

Sorry I'm being such a whiner.

I also think your oven location is a huge safety hazard and very awkward. I'd rearrange the cooking wall and place the wall ovens to one side and the steam oven to the other. I'd give up the prep sink to do that. Your regular sink is close enough to function for prep and cleanup. I'd swap the DW and trash location so that the prep was done right over the trash, and then where the wall ovens were located, I'd do a china hutch thing there. It'd be easy to unload the DW straight into that. If you definately want a second sink, I might put a bar sink on that wall and make it a coffee center/beverage center as well as dish storage. You might also consider making your bank of drawers smaller to be able to create a rolling butcher block counter cart that can roll underneath your regular counter when not in use but pull out for additional prep space when needed.

OK, with those windows there, there isn't enough wall space depth for ovens there. Nevermind on the oven locations there.

I'd put the double oven next to the fridge then. And maybe the steam oven undercounter on the other side of the cooktop from the prep sink. I'd still do the china cabinet storage and DW/trash swap idea though, and maybe the mobile cart could tuck in the cabinet on that wall.

Out of curiosity, why is your cooktop on the top/long wall? Would you be able to fit double ovens and cooktop on the left wall you currently have set up for the refrigerator? Not sure where you'd put the combi but you could decide what works best for you.

You'd have a very long counter run along the back of your kitchen. Could be your baking or hutch area. Other possibility would be to not have that run be as long but have more counter extend under the window on your left side.

Refrigerator would go where your ovens were in the drawing.

jayne

Jayne-there are two reasons that the cooktop can't go on the back wall. First, there is a little bump out wall that can't be removed. If the cooktop were placed there, you would lose 10" from the side wall in a L run because that's how much the bump out sticks out on that side. Also, it's a 20" stone wall...even if you decided to put a hole in it for a vent, it would vent right into the patio seating area. Can't run the vent across the ceiling to the side, because the joists go the wrong way. You could put the cooktop where the hutch and refrigerator are but you still have the venting problem and it wouldn't be a very nice view from the dining room. That was the motivation behind the refrigerator (integrated) and hutch there...the view. I'm not exaggerating when I say this kitchen is problematic. Right now it has 4 doorways, 3 windows, a soil stack chase and two little bump out walls. We seriously thought it would be easier to just move than tackle this remodel!

live wire: the window to the right of the cooktop could be made smaller to accomodate the wall ovens there. It's north facing and doesn't have a great view, so that could be an option. I wish I had my design software on this computer. I really don't want to put a cabinet on the wall next to the sink because that will make it even more difficult to feel like you're part of the kitchen action when seated at the inside corner of the breakfast bar. It's already pretty bad.

cheri,

Do you have to have both doors? Can one just be an opening? Then you could take out that 5" wall altogether since you wouldn't need to anchor a door.

Kathy

Maybe you could pop the oven cabinet out a bit so just the handles clear. Or could you stagger where the cutouts are so the handles aren't adjacent? Or since you rarely use the ovens switch the sides that the appliances are on. It sounds like you like the rest of your layout so I'm not going there. Then I'd be a KD trying to force someone to go with a layout they don't want. Sorry, mean-spirited but I couldn't resist!

I reread some of your earlier comments and had skimmed by the part about your induction preference causing some of the difficulty. I also did some thinking about the fact that your biggest problem seems to be locating 3 ovens but you also say that you don't use ovens a lot. (So they might end up being expensive storage for cookware!)It might be worth putting the double oven back up on ebay and getting a single oven that can work under your cooktop.

You could do a few things.
1) get a small standalone induction unit or hob and still get a gas range. Not sure but possibly something like Miele could offer units that could work ok together.

2) See the latest options for an induction over oven. (am providing a link to the Induction Site with more info.)

3) Still plan on getting a single oven but place it underneath your combi wherever it ends up.

jayne

Here is a link that might be useful: Induction Site write-up of options for cooktop over oven

You might want to do a test drive. I just looked at the specs for these units. (Actually the 27" doesn't come up on the Gaggenau site so I looked at the 30"). It looks like the handles slant in towards the ovens so you may be able to manipulate your procedure for opening them to get them to work even though you are closer than the spec calls for. Also what size cabinets have you planned? Framed or frameless? If you're using custom cabinets can you just get a little more width on each unit - an inch or so might help.

I took out a wall for my remodel and the plaster and lath was 2" thick! It seems to me you should be able to find that 2" somehow. Or maybe 2" is what they recommend, but something less would work too. Since you already have to ovens could you do a dry run with them?

Jayne-I've read every word on the induction site about 10000 times, hahaha, and there's only one range...the Diva. At $9500 DH says, "No Way". Of course, he thinks $11K for a 48" Wolf is justifiable.

mom2lilenj-knocking thru a piece of those walls could give me an idea of how much space there is. Think I may do that when I get home next week.

khat-my contractor suggested the same thing (ie.switch the ovens). I read a post in appliances from someone who installed the gagg 27" doubles and they said they it was a tight squeeze with 28", so I guess that's the minimum.

Thanks you everyone for your insight and input. While I'm still not convinced that the ovens pose too much of a safety hazzard, it's worth considering moving them. I also realized that the wall cabinet to the hutch may block that window too much. I've started working on a new layout (had to buy the download for this computer because I'm too TKO to wait till I get home!) which I'll post in a new thread.

I would also move the fridge. What range are you using? If you are using a range, then you can resell the Gaggs and keep the steam oven. The steam oven can stay in the same location as long as you have water plumbed to it. It is a tough choice but I think you have created some constraints in the kitchen layout. Can you post your dimensions? I think you need to consider using your corner spaces. I see the windows but are the floor to ceiling windows in the corner?

Good luck!

Homepro-below are the dimensions that the kitchen will be after we open the dining room wall and move the patio door. Also is a drawing of the existing kitchen, which has served me well but we need a bigger fridge and no longer need the table (kids are now teens), but still want a space to sit for coffee, chat etc.

There few items I really, really want are 1)a baking height counter, 2)induction cooktop and 3)combi steam oven. I would like to keep the double ovens but will try to resell them if I can't make them fit.

Existing kitchen

I have a few ideas but before I suggest them, can you explain the bumpout walls on the patio side and also on the other side? I think your kitchen really lends itself to a galley/island style kitchen. I think going with such an approach, you can really maximize your space and using the kitchen will be more ergonomic for you. You also may not want a double sink in a galley/island configuration. I will find a picture from one of my many magazined but try to scan it in for you. Alas, I think the double ovens will be a stretch and may not be possible with your space constraints.
Where are you located? What style were you interested in for your kitchen? What size fridge are you looking to purchase?
Homepro01