Where is your dish storage?

Our sink run with dishwasher has a 4 ft aisle between it and the island, which works fine, but that side of our island is an additional, rarely used prep space, not the cooktop area. I really wish to move the cooktop in your plan so that it's not back to back with the main sink and dw...although, I know you're trying to preserve space between prep sink and stove, and also maintain a large enough aisle for seating, so can't really go wider on your work aisle. Would you consider shallower pantry cabs?

... What do you plan for the 36" drawers in your prep area? You have the 36" drawers under your cooktop, so it seems like overkill there, when you could move your cooktop toward the prep sink a bit. I'd rather line it up with the sink than have it overlap the dishwasher. I know there are people here who NEVER open the dw while they cook, but in our family, the dw is cleared and sometimes dishes loaded as I make meals.

The oven location bothers me, too, as it is in the prime dish storage location and doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of baking prep space. But I'm not seeing a place to move it... Have you considered 2 undercounter ovens instead of the stack?

I have concerns, but no great solutions to suggest. I hate sounding negative without something more constructive to offer, so I apologize.

Is that a dining room set or could you build the hutch. It's a little bit tight for the person in front of the hutch and a little bit tight for putting dishes away.

What about running the hutch for the entire wall - 15" deep for30" long on both ends, but only 12" deep behind the diner - rasing the clearance to 36" from 33" AND providing dish storage accessible from the kitchen.

I value your input Rhome and was hoping you be one of the layout experts to take a look again this time. Dish storage is in drawers to the right of the sink.

Yes, I am trying to preserve every inch I can between the prep sink and cooktop as this will be my drivers seat so to speak. I would consider slightly shallower pantry cabs, but was planning to store my collection of serving trays on their sides in the bottom.

I went with 36" drawers in prep space because I had 36" of space there. I decided that in order to gain maximum storage I wouldn't waste the precious inches between drawer/door stacks to split the space up into smaller stacks. I occassionally empty the DW while cooking, but thought it looked like I could do that most nights as for just daily cooking I would probably use the burners to the right on the cooktop which would give me room to unload.

I know oven location isn't ideal. I played around for weeks with different locations, including undercounter. I ruled them out for two reasons. 1. Buehl and others say the doors end up practically on the floor when open. 2. It seemed like one oven would have to be located on the back of the island. Not ideal.

I've not gotten very positive comments on any of my layouts yet, but I don't consider yours negative! You're just pointing out issues to make sure I've taken them into account! ;) This layout isn't perfect. I know that. But whose is? My kitchen is small. My house isn't large. If we were willing to give up the dining room I'm sure we could come up with a different layout, but we've ruled that out.

Bmorepanic--I didn't see your post when I replied. I just the other night began to consider your idea of built-in. The hutch is an antique that holds the good china which isn't used every day. Building in would give so much extra storage. I'd have to find another spot in the house for the hutch. I'll discuss with DH tonight. BTW, the table sits a bit farther from the hutch. I don't know why I drew it so close.

bumping for Buehl and other layout experts.

bumping again. I need more eyes on this please!!

So the fact that dish storage is to the left of the sink (you said 'right of the sink', but there aren't drawers there?) means that there is even more conflict with unloading the dw/setting the table and cooking the meal.

I am just brainstorming here...and trying to make dinner, so please excuse me if I'm disregarding a wish or requirement ina any. I know the first 2 wreck the walk-through vs work zone concept, but as I said, just trying things:

Oops. I did mean the dish drawer is to the left of the sink. We eat our daily meals in the breakfast nook/booth area so I thought the dishes were convenient to the left of the sink as that's the side closest to the table. Most of the daily action and kids play space in the family room on the bottom right (so to speak) of the whole house plan posted above so I'm trying to orient the kitchen more towards that area.

I also was trying not to put the cleanup sink in the island as all of the dirty dishes would be on display for everyone. Unfortunately, that seems to mean that the cooktop gets placed in the island, which also isn't ideal I know.

I've thought about an arrangment similar to your last one, but again my cleanup area is directed towards the dining room with mess in full view. AND how do I handle windows in that case?

I just can't seem to meet my big priorities for this space. I know I can't have everything, but I already feel like I'm giving up so much.

Thanks for your ideas!

I am not a layout guru, but I saw your other post about not getting feedback, so I thought I would "bump" your post up and share my personal perspective on your current plan.

It sounds like, from your most recent post, you would like to have windows by the main sink, and have the prep sink face toward the family room at bottom right. Given those priorities, I understand why you have chosen to put the cooktop in the island.

One potential problem I see is with the pantry and microwave being right next to the fridge. I would want to be sure to have a landing space next to the fridge, where cups/glasses are easily accessible. I am not sure whether your drawing shows floor-to-ceiling pantry next to the fridge... or will there be countertop there, with a microwave hanging under the upper cabinets?

Another random idea -- have you considered switching the double ovens with the fridge? The fridge will be opened many times each day, and it seems close to the traffic pattern from the French doors to the family room. If you put the ovens there, they will be opened less often. Putting the fridge at the top of the wall run would let people serve themselves drinks easily from the living room. From the family room, they would come up the aisle to the right of the island, and then turn left to reach the fridge.

I hope this helps...

I also read your post about not getting any replies. So I thought I'd take a look. I haven't had much chance to study, but one thing caught my eye. Your oven cabinet is only 27" W. That means you'll have to have 24" w. double ovens. Can you even find them that small ? And believe me from someone who has small (old) oven. They are no fun. Nothing fits in them ! I don't even know if you could get a whole turkey in one- well probably, but i have many cookie sheet /bar pans that won't fit, so I have to put them in long ways & then the door doesn't shut all the way. The smaller ovens are also probably more costly, because they aren't the norm...
I'll look some more to see if I have any good suggestions. It is a little hard to see & read though...

I agree with the direction Rhome is going in, as well as some of Eastbaymom's points.

The gas cooktop is much better (including safer) against a wall. That gives you a lot more island prep and project space as well. And putting the fridge nearer the dining area will keep a lot of back and forthing during meals out of the work zone.

For futures with your growing family, you might want more island seating. You can put a slide out surface between the top of your cabinets and the stone or whatever you plan to put on the island. Any good carpenter should be able to build it. That would allow you to use the outer aisle sometimes for seating, but usually for walking and access to your storage.

One thing that the peninsula does in Rhome's third layout is provide a barrier that makes walking through the work area uninviting. If you don't want to do that, you might consider making pinch points at either side of the island, even just post extensions, that make it look like a less attractive way through.

With this small galley, and a premium on storage, I'm not sure you need a prep sink separate from a clean-up sink, unless you're planning to expand your family a lot. Is there a laundry room, powder room, or wet bar nearby with another sink which can be used for incidental handwashing? Actually, perhaps having a beverage center in the family room, away from the kitchen proper (but not too far) would be a way to divert a lot of the walk-throughs. With a beverage fridge, coffee/tea center, bar, or whatever you need when you're entertaining, and a bar sink, not only does it give your guests another place to congregate, it also gives you an extra prep zone for when the kids are bigger, or you have a grown friend or relative helping you cook, and there's a project that needs (wants) sink space, like cleaning mushrooms and potatoes.

Most people also like to have the trash by the sink. With one large sink in the island, you can have a standard configuration of trash on one side and DW on the other. You might also want to have a decorative double bin (trash and recycling) in the family room so that the kids, et al., can put refuse where it belongs without getting into the work zone.

You may soon want your kids to be able to microwave things for themselves (or not). Really think that one through for your layout. If you think you'll want them to be able to help themselves to hot cereal or whatever, at a young age, make sure the MW is low enough that they'll be able to reach in safely. Also, you might want to organize a snack zone of things you want them to be able to help themselves to, including snacking dishes, in the same area. Or possibly move it to the hypothetical beverage area. :)

I think you have a great idea, generally, about creating the walking aisle. When you think you have a layout you're happy with it, try building it out of boxes and playing at cooking and having kids (borrow some) running back and forth, while the borrowed kids' moms get in your way--or not. See how it works, but don't tell them the purpose. Just that you want to see how the layout works, not the will they be in the way part. And temper it knowing the kids if they're as young as your son are going to want to play with the boxes so might be underfoot more than if it were a boring old kitchen. :)

I know what you're going after with the cooking surface in the island with a prep sink. You want what you want. People here, myself included, favor certain kinds of features in layouts and while we have a high level of agreement, all of them are just guidelines. I have no problem with an island cooktop, but just about everyone does! laughing

I would like cooking in your proposed kitchen excepting 3 things. And they aren't biggies except for number 3..
(1) Unless I'm trying to have shielding, big stuff on the ends irritates me, so I tend to cluster it. If I could, I'd go pantry, refrigerator, then oven then cleanup (cause I wouldn't have to buy panels). The bad result of that order is encouraging walk thrus.
(2) I would kill of the little banquette and put more narrow storage there, some coat hooks, maybe a bulletin board and have more of an eating area by the side of the island in front of the fireplace. Again, somewhat personal preference cause I don't like blocked pathways from exterior doors. I like having informal activity space to play cards and occasionally jigsaw puzzles and with a few stools, I wouldn't need another meal eating space as much as the activity space.
(3) I guess I'd try as best I could to determine who's going to cut through, from where and for what and see if anything else should be clustered together, but on the perimeter.

I just looked again at your current thread...I think maybe I did see your first thread, but that was some time ago wasn't it?

Just trying to reassure you again that it's not you. :)

Seeing these other layout suggestions are helping me put my bigger priorities (not just appliance needs) for the new kitchen into words. Here why I laid out the kitchen like this:

1. All major activities (prepping, cooking, and clean-up) need to be oriented towards kitchen table area with bench and the family room in the bottom right of house layout as these two areas are where the majority of daily activities take place. (During a party people are spread out all over the house.) For example, I do not want the cooktop or the cleanup sink facing the dining room as I cant watch the kids in the family room. This is getting more critical now that the baby is starting to crawl and getting into the 4 year old sons toys.

2. Different people hanging out and traffic patterns are needed. Current kitchen is in a major pathway of the house. When guests are over, everyone wants to stand in the kitchen or need to walk through to get to the dining room or deck. And frankly, Im sick of people being in my way when Im in the middle of cooking. They slow me down and it's dangerous for their health. I thought the large island in my plan created that barrier, but still allowed people to gather in the kitchen and/or help from the side or back.

3. Cleanup area needs to be separated from prep area. I currently prep next to cleanup sink which I HATE. Im tired of the dirty dishes in my way. Those two zones do not play well together.

4. I need to prep near a sink as I wash my hands constantly during prep. I have dirty hands and germ issues. But don't tell my husband I admitted that.

5. Cooktop needs to be next to prep area. I currently have to make the 5 ½-foot trek from one side of the kitchen to the other weaving my way around bodies to take food to the stove.

6. I need a window on the exterior wall. I live in rainy Western Washington. And I have a great courtyard/patio garden out that side of the house.

Given all of that, I thought my layout was a decent one. Obviously its not perfect. I dont have the space for perfect. Maybe Ive lived with a bad layout so long that I wouldnt recognize a good one if the sun shined on it. ;) (Couldnt resist another weather joke!) I took storage space into consideration as there is limited room inside "The Zone" galley area. I can fit in daily used items and have plenty of room outside the area for items used less often.

Fridge near the kitchen table and family room is best, not near dining room for reasons stated above. Family is not expanding more. The fertility doctor told me wed never conceive on our own before my last child was born. Im the luckiest person in the world to have her, but Im old and done having kids.

I love Pllogs idea of separate beverage center, but where do I put it? Again, were not giving up kitchen table or dining room. Maybe incorporate that somehow in the pantry area near fireplace? Small counter for drinks? Ive thought about that idea, but not about making it big enough for another prep area. Oh, and no microwave access for small kids.

Should I start a new thread with this latest info? Will I hate this kitchen?

It sounds to me that you are increasingly confident that this is what you want. Which is good!

Perhaps you are looking for reassurance, more than fine-tuning what you have come up with?

I can imagine feeling comfortable as a guest in your kitchen. In the end, it's your kitchen -- and because you designed it, you will probably love it more than anyone else!

Bmorepanice and plllog--I think my last very lengthy post got crossed with your two.

Bmore - my comments. On #1, if I the wall arrangement as you suggest, wouldn't I need fillers between the wall and pantry; pantry and fridge; and fridge and oven? I guess I was trying to minimize fillers and maximize usable space. Walkthroughs...bad #2 Kitchen table/bench area is existing. Was hoping to keep it. Right-hand french door is our main path. The other door does open. #3 good call on really thinking through the walkthroughs. I keep thinking fridge, but kids will go through for more than that.

Yes, plllog. My first layout was posted in early March and I think you did comment.

Eastbay, I guess I'm getting to the point of more confidence. But I don't want to screw this up either! Thanks for the kind words!

On #1, if I the wall arrangement as you suggest, wouldn't I need fillers between the wall and pantry; pantry and fridge; and fridge and oven? I guess I was trying to minimize fillers and maximize usable space.

Actually, you only need one somewhere and it can be a base cabinet filler (cheapest) or matching base and wall cabinet fillers(still cheaper). Fillers generally concern corners(you don't have any) or cabinet runs that are bound on both ends by a wall (you got this!). Every once in a while, people leave room for a future enhancement - I did some in my sink run because I was afraid I'd hate the sink. There is no requirement to have filler between tall cabinets.

You need to allow for one filler somewhere - maybe 1.5 inches. Because the bumpout is new construction, the filler can be minimal because you're just building an allowance in case they frame incorrectly or screw up in some other way - not to wish evil - like building the bump out half-an-inch too small.

If you do refrigerator side panels instead, you need to allow an extra .75, 1.5 inches or more for the side panels depending on who's making the cabinets. AND you still need a filler somewhere.

Cut throughs is one of the reasons rhome is asking about dish storage.

If you find a way to keep guests out of the kitchen, please let me know.

Sorry about the fridge confusion. I missed the banquette and table this time around and thought the dining room was where people were eating. Yes, definitely, as you drew them! Fridge near the table.

Re locating a beverage center/secondary prep area, there is no really obvious one, because I remember that you want to keep that banquette. That would be a great place, then have a freestanding table in the FR. You could definitely do it where the pantry is by the fireplace, and it could have a lot of alternate storage for enough of what goes in the kitchen that you wouldn't lose too much actual storage space, but all the loss would be in the prime, waist high, zone. My friend has a "freestanding" unit in his living room which opens up as a very large wet zone, with doors that fold out of the way. You could do this in your living room or family room, but to be a good alternate prep area you'd probably want it as close to the kitchen as possible. Without knowing just how you use your spaces it's hard to tell where the best place would be.

Bmorepanic--The filler thing is throwing me for a loop. I need more? Maybe it's the late hour.

Plus I stupidly thought that a 27" oven cabinet fit a 27" oven. Another poster on my other thread called this to my attention. So now I need 30" of oven cabinet for my double 27" ovens?? And I need more filler than I thought. I have 174" planned. I could squeeze an inch or two or three more as it will be new construction, but that's it. How should this wall be laid out now?

I would check the specs on your oven. My 30" wall ovens went into a 30" cabinet. Each manufacturer will tell you what size cabinet you need.

I had been led to believe that oven cab size depended upon cabinet construction (frame-less or European versus face-frame or traditional). Our 27" oven is in a 29" face-frame cabinet (both 16 years old) so I sort of assumed that we'd need a wider cabinet if we went with face-frame cabinets. And then I read the specs for the GE Monogram 30" ovens. Installation specs call for a 30" cabinet, 28-1/2" to 28-5/8" cut-out and an overlap of 11/16" of oven over side edges of cabinet. I read further and learned that these instructions are for a face-frame cabinet. If you have frame-less cabinets with 3/4" sides, the instructions state that you need to shim both sides to establish the cut-out opening. So I can put a 30" GE Monogram oven into a 30" cabinet.

Here's a supposition: improved insulation on today's ovens allows us to use smaller cabinets that required in the past. Pure guess on my part.

Fillers are wacked.

In the bumpout area, no matter what you do with the rest of the cabinets or their position, you must have one filler because your cabinet run is up against the walls on both sides. The filler can be small - 1.5" or even .75" if you are really brave. It's the insurance policy that the cabinets will actually fit.

Refrigerator panels do not take the place of that filler. They cover the side of the refrigerator and provide support to an over-the-ref cabinet.

If the ref has tall cabinets to either side, you do not need refrigerator panels or fillers. Again, there is absolutely no need to put fillers between every tall cabinet.

If you use frameless cabinets, you need to ALSO allow for something called a starter molding (.75" filler) so the cabinet doors or drawers on each end don't bind against the wall. The starter molding doesn't take the place of the single required filler because of the bumpout.

If your cabinets (not the countertops - the actual cabinets) stick out from the wall 3/4", you don't need the starter molding.

Framed cabinets, as far as I know, never need starter moldings.

For example, if the pantry and the oven cabinets are positioned next to each other, you do not need a filler between them. Or between them and the next cabinet. If the pantry is positioned next to a wall, if framed, you do not need a starter molding, if frameless, you do. But you do not need to add any more filler just because its near a wall or another tall cabinet.

Refrigerators are a bit different. Refrigerators need some room beside the hinges to open. The amount of room varies a lot between different refrigerator models - from 2" minimum to 14" minimum. Some refs need one quantity to open at all - say 2" and a different number if you want to be able to clean it without moving it - say 12".

If you want the ref positioned on an end towards the table space, it can't be right against a longer wall. A shorter wall, yes, but not a longer wall. It's doors won't open. That's why you see a number of kitchens with a small, tall pantry or broom closet right beside the ref and on the wall side. So, try to remember the critical measurement of about 26" and don't get a ref with a shallower body and that problem is solved.

In your drawing way up top, if the wall is longer than the ref but the ref and the pantry switch places, the door opening issue is solved BUT the doors open in front of the prep sink and the prep area. On one hand, its really efficient but it might also become annoying.

BUT you still don't need a filler between the ref and the next cabinet. I'm not sure why you have 6" of filler there.

Hi Breezy,

I'm so happy for you to have your two blessings! Sometimes it's wonderful when doctors are wrong.

I see you have gotten some very good help here with the layout. I just wanted to make a quick comment about having all major activities face where the kids are. I know that it is extremely important now but, since you are not expanding your family, this will be less critical in a very few years. Then they can be sitting at the island doing homework or be trusted to be out of eyesight for longer lengths of time. My oldest children are reaching ages to actually cook, the middle are helping prep, and the littlest one is still trying to eat whatever is on the floor ;-) So, I've been where you are.

I guess what I am trying to say in a less than straightforward way is this: IF the layout would be better with some tasks facing away from the kitchen table/living room, AND you are planning to be in this house for more than a few years, you MIGHT want to have inconvenience for a couple of years now rather than for the next 10 years after.

I hope this makes sense and helps you firm up your thoughts. I'm trying to finalize my layout, too (need to post soon!) and I have huge fear of commitment! Enjoy your new space!

By the way, I didn't move the cooktop because I'm against the island location-- just because it's in the island...It was a better flow with the other elements, getting the best workspaces, and separation of the zones that I was trying to accomplish. My 2nd plan could work just as well, I suppose with the cooktop back in the island and a nice baking space under windows on the back.

We were away for a few days so I'm just now checking back on my layout. Sorry for the absence.

Lisa--I have picked the Kitchenaid Architect II 27" wall ovens. Their specs on-line say they need a 27" cabinet so I'm OK there.

Rhome--I know you were just trying to improve flow. I think I'm over other people's issues with an island cooktop. If it needs to be there, it will go there. I just DON'T want the cleanup sink on the island. I've put a lot of thought into this and I'm also sure that I want the prep sink and cooktop on the same cab run. I currently prep and cook on opposite sides of a modified gallley (galley with the small peninsula), and I find it a hastle to move across an aisle. But is my kitchen too small to afford this luxury?

Shelly--You're right about maybe sacrificing kid-watching view now for longer term layout. I don't think the place where daily activities take place in the space will change. We've lived in the house 11 years (and plan to stay BTW) and we always hang out in the family room in the evenings and weekends. I'd like to find a layout that allows me to be oriented that direction or at least not completely opposite of that direction. I appreciate your post!

I am just here to throw out ideas and if none of them thrill you, that's OK...It's your kitchen! A couple more questions...

Would you consider putting the ovens in the island facing the top of the plan?

I have been trying to reshuffle that back wall to get the best non-conflict, best flow set up. Have you played with that wall lineup a lot?

I worked on all of the areas--a lot!! I considered the ovens undercounter in the island facing the newly bumped out exterior wall with cleanup sink. Two ovens won't fit side by side in the island facing the dining room at the top of the plan as the island is 48" wide there. I ruled out the UC ovens facing new wall because I didn't want to stand in front of oven handle to prep. Plus, it used a lot of storage in the prep zone area. This is so hard!! See why I have the layout as it is?