I don't see why you couldn't do this from a practical standpoint. Our cabinet maker is making a set of pull-out steps for us in our mudroom cabinets leading up to the dog grooming tub. In fact, here is a picture of one:

My concern would be that it might be annoying to step on or step off when you are baking and that it could be a tripping hazard if you leave it open when doing so. Like, you have to get off to add water to the dough, you turn back around and trip or whatever.

Tall clogs - perfect! How tall are you with the clogs? I'm 5'6", how high would I need to go to be at the perfect baking height with 36" counters?

My husband would love it if I start baking in stiletto heels. And a short apron, lol.

My concerns would be the same as beagles' -- forgetting it and tripping on, off or across it - especially when you have your hands full with a bowl, pan or cookie sheet.

I like Plllog's solution. :-)

Plllog with the clllogs. Awesome. :o)

Clogs cost much less and it is better for your back and joints to cushion your feet.

I started uploading some picture to reply to this post and saw there were a bunch of replies already!

I have the same issue. I'm 5'4" and I love to bake. I have to knead bread dough on my tippy toes. I live with a brain injury so my neuro would KILL me if I wore heels (unless the heels themselves killed me first!) My husband is Dutch so I do have clogs, but they aren't particularly comfortable, and we're a no-shoes in the house kind of house.

Our solution was to build a dropped counter on the end of our bar. It actually serves a few purposes: it's lower for baking, it's open so my son can "help" me bake, and it's accessible for friends in wheelchairs so they can hang out in the kitchen with everyone else.

*we found our inspiration at a Dutch design center.*

*First version of the kitchen, baking center on end of bar.*

*latest version of kitchen, with baking center by the living room*

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen sketch

If you did create a pull out step, I would suggest you have it slope down at the sides and front edges to reduce the tripping hazard. Providing it was 36" wide, I think you could make it safe. You'd have to use undermounted sliders.

Since your center aisle is relatively narrow, perhaps you could make it so it extended completely across the aisle and then you would only need a shallow ramp at each end. You might not even need sliders if you added a pull-out handle. Are you familiar with those library-type kick step stools that move easily in all directions but as soon as you step on them your weight pins them down. Maybe some apparatus like that would be useful in a full aisle ramp/riser section.

Pllog's cllogs are better, however. KISS.

L

Well, my clogs were "free" being that I bought them a long time ago, not realizing their bad side until I tried walking by a tree with gnarly roots. :)

To find your optimal rolling height, put something soft and firm like paper bags, towels or other cloth, on a surface that you know is too low. Roll with your rolling pin, pressing firmly as if you were rolling stiff dough. Add to the stack until it gets too high, then lower it to the correct height.

I'm 5'8" barefoot--though remember that it's the height of your shoulders that counts, not the top of your head. My optimal rolling height is 33"-33.5" in bare feet. My baking counter is 36.5" and my island is 38". The crocs are about 1.5" extra height, and I have some half inch rug-mat thingies, so standing on one at the island in crocs is the equivalent of a 36" island counter for cutting sugar cookies, which is fine for me. The tall wood clogs come out for the tough stuff that requires power--that puts my baking counter at optimal height. No mat. I don't want to fall off one in those danged wood clogs. :)

You'd never guess that I used to run around fearlessly in wood platform shoes and dance in 4.5" d'Orsays. ;) Actually, the d'Orsays might be good baking shoes, too, if I want to do pie crust on the island. They're comfy. :) But I'm not sure my self-image is up to baking in shiny bronze stilettos. (Before you ask, my hardware is brass--they don't match my kitchen.)

Of course, I am advocating a pull-out board. Also you can sit down at a stool at a pull-out and really get your knees under your work. Not necessarily for kneading but great for chopping, picking over things, etc.

If need be, put the pullout below a top narrow drawer in your cabs. I think there was one like that in the article posted some time ago about a 1930s? 40s? model kitchen made for ergonomics and practicality. Now there's a disappearing work surface that can remain retracted most of the time!

My concern would be when rolling pies or kneading anything, that the downward pressure put on the pull-out might be more than it can handle, especially if it is on pull-out rails.

you could just get a block of wood with non-skid feet and use it.

I think it would depend on the length of your baking counter and what other available prep space you have. Sorry if you've posted pics of your kitchen and I don't remember. Given the choice and the fact that I'm 5' and probably shrinking... I would want a lowered counter.

Or you could have a removeable section of countertop that you lifted out when urge to knead came on. For instance you could have a section of BB for everyday chopping (real BB, intended for use) that normally sat flush with your counter top. Lift it off and below you have a section of cool marble or granite (cheap because its a remnant), perfect for rolling pie dough. It would need to be big enough, or on an end, so that you didn't feel cramped in the lower section.

L

Pullout boards have a long backside so that there's still a lot of channel even when part of board is projected forward. If someone you know has an OLD FASHIONED one, not one of the new style "for show" ones, ask if you can try it out.

I absolutely love my baking-height counter. It is more helpful and useful in several ways that I had not anticipated:

1. Great for mixing, too; you can put some elbow grease into batter you're creaming (I don't use a mixer), or bananas that need mashing. You can see into the bowl and that's really, really nice. It's really a far better height for mixing, too, which I hadn't realized; I find myself in my just-one-week-old kitchen picking up and heading for the baking-top all of the time.

2. Mine's next to the fridge; very helpful! Heavy bags of groceries don't have to get hefted to the full 37" counter; they're happy to stop shy at 31.5".

3. Kids have a much easier time, too, mixing and the like. Everyone just gravitates to this surface to mix. We haven't even kneaded anything yet.

I always thought I wanted a lower countertop for rolling and kneading, but then when it came time to be able to make it and it was falling away from the design, I really questioned whether I needed it after all. I almost let it go. I had no idea how much I would like it, I would never have let it almost slip away if I could have known this in advance. It's just about the favorite part of my kitchen (with stiff competition).

Aliris19, I'd love to see a picture of your baking counter please!

Some good ideas on here! I do have a couple of little helpers so aliris's concept sounds great. I just don't know how I'd incorporate it in my kitchen.

Any ideas?
{{gwi:1902025}}From kitchen for KF

I sort of hate to interrupt my 11' span of countertop. On the other hand I may have a hard time finding an 11' slab of granite anyway, so...

I also like the idea of a removeable section of butcher block, although I'm not sure in reality I'd take the time to remove and replace it every time I wanted to whip up a "quick" batch of xyz. How heavy would a piece of 33x28" BB be?

I would also love to see your baking counter, aliris!

=O "My husband would love it if I start baking in stiletto heels. And a short apron" ~gasp~

Not to mention give him a face splitting grin whenever someone mentions a "baker(')s rack".

Lot of good ideas here. I do not like the baseboard slide-out for baking though. "Drawer" slides have weight limits and there are many that can surely handle whatever force you can muster up should you decide to go that route. I prefer to use a sink for making/kneading dough especially if the recipe calls for butter etc. You can fill the sink with ice so it doesn't turn into ghee in the process and cleanup is a snap. I'll never understand the use of bar sinks as prep sinks.

Considering your layout I would put your baking area at the end of the pantry with a sink to one side. But to echo what is commonly said on these threads... we would need pictures of all the options in order to give you the best advice. What color apron... ?

Ian

Hiyall - I'm a little trigger shy about posting pictures; I did some as quickly as I'm about to post these a week ago or so and, um, it didn't go over well. We're still moving in. And constructing, too. This is not intended for show-off purposes!

I actually took down a plastic calendar thingy I had magneted to the side of the fridge. Definitely inelegant but life is very chaotic, and, well, I have kids and - whatever ... please don't complain about the messiness or that we're still in construction, etc. It makes me feel really badly that I'm not a neater person! I'm OK living with it myself, but I hate how it isn't the way others are...

So here's an overview:

You can see that it's a deep 30" to match the fridge. The the counter to its right goes back to 24" because I wanted a corner lazy susan and that turns the corner into a deep bay window so pulling it all out to, say, 27" was going to make for a cleaning-problem (maybe; I'm not so sure in retrospect but that was the reasonsing). Also, I balanced the jog visually by placing another at the other end of this cleanup area by pulling the right-angled range-run back out to 27" after the sink. If you click on my photo you'll go to my photobucket where the plans are nestled way back in the beginning somewhere. I imagine the last of the plans posted is pretty close to what wound up happening (haven't looked back there in a while!)

And here's a closeup in better light; not sure it adds much beyond the above pic though -- except notice that the KD added a 1" spacer between low and tall cabs so the countertop could die into something. I sure wouldn't have thought of that! She earned her commission right there I think):

That bread's about to be turned into french toast, another long-missed family fav that I'm going to have to cut this short to attend to. BTW, it's really yummy, IMO, bread from costco -organic sliced -- I love this stuff but haven't french-toastified it ever.

Back to the subject: re step-up boards. Personally, I'd be a little worried about the extra weight that would be brought to bear from, say, kneading on one of those things. I'd say the clllog route might be cheaper, safer, wiser. I have a large drawer with a lot of weight that really isn't faring too well even with the heavy-duty slides. It's possible there are more heavy-duty slides available still. But how are you going to lock the drawer so it doesn't slide with you if applying pressure? Also, remember it's expensive to put in another drawer; maybe OK with you but given the other concerns, well, I'd think twice. I agree it's totally groovy, but I'd worry about the safety - kids concern me too. Also, we're kinda messy around here (didja get that part?) and I'd worry it would be sticking out and someone would trip. Dunno, the worrier in me would find too many concerns. Plus, again, balanced against how wonderful it's turned out to be having the lower counter, and perhaps its location is part of the utility, with all that, I'd go for the lowered counter. =0.02

I'm getting yelled-at to hurry up big-time!

BTW, it's a really nice height for just plopping your butt during unexpected I-know-you're-busy-which-is-why-I'm-taking-this-exact-moment-to-spill-the-beans-and-I'll-never-forgive-you-if-you-don't-drop-everything-to-pay-attention-to-me-teenager-moments.

I'm 5'3" and would have to find me some big honkin' clogs to be able to knead at my counters. As it is, I take my bread dough into the dining room and knead at the table on one or two big cutting boards.

I love aliris' counter, plus her list of reasons why it works so well for her family. I hadn't even noticed that it was lower in the un-boxed-in fridge thread. But how handy...you can probably *see* into grocery bags when they're sitting on that counter...handy!

Another observation tonight about why I liked the counter but would be worried about the roll-out step-up semi-drawer step-stool plan: I was juicing a lemon and needed to lean into the thing; naturally I backed up to get some more leverage. If I'd been on a platform that would have been harder to do; wouldn't have been able to get the right angle at best, would have fallen off at worst.

I think it depends; if you're steady on your own feet and think anyone who might be involved would be too, then that's fine. Else, dunno... and if you're older, you'll get older still as this kitchen and you age together; I know my mom could never get up on something like that. Course she doesn't really cook anymore either.

I'm no layout guru, but I would think the low spot would be better next to the fridge than at the end of the counter. I'd prefer the location next to the fridge for all the reasons listed above. And I'd hesitate placing it at the end of the island because I'd worry the disruption of that space would be especially troublesome. I think the edge is already vulnerable because you have 4 sides to the edge and each side needs its own "bubble". So I think causing a change in height at the island location would break up further an already tentative span; seems wasteful. I think lowering the counter next to the fridge would be less disruptive in that location.

New reason I love the lowered counter: Egg Breaking. I have these long shallow-ish large ss mixing bowls that have always been a pain for breaking eggs into. Not exactly sure why but maybe because the perimeter is so large, it just jiggles rather than presenting a hard surface on which to crack the egg. Well, in comes the edge to the low baking counter, where the upper counter overhangs. It is tall enough to accept the bowl right under the lip and then you use that hard marble edge for smacking the egg onto, and toss the shell on the other side into waiting compost bucket. Very cool.

It's not really a problem for me, breaking the egg even on the problematic bowl. But it flummoxes the kids. They love this new feature! Maybe not for everyone, but really yet another fine bonus for us.

Perhaps you could use the pantry. Offset the door to one side to make room for a full depth counter. Make that counter the appropriate height for baking. Baking tools and supplies could live in there, maybe even a little heated chamber for rising and proofing. This baking center would be out of the way - doesn't take up room in the main kitchen. Assuming good drawers and upper shelves, I don't think you'd even lose much ''pantry'' space. It can be secondary prep space, staging space for big meals, etc. A little sink (more for cleaning off the counter, washing hands, etc) would be handy.

In general, I think it would be a good idea for the pantry to do double-duty as something else. The kitchen is not so large that it can really dedicate 42 sq ft of floor space to only 15 sq ft of pantry shelves.

One thing that makes Aliris's baking counter work so well is the extra depth. The classic 24"-26" counter depth is just a bit spare to make the most of the special counter.

Thank you for sharing your kitchen pics Aliris. That helped a lot to visualize it.

The "steady on your feet" and the "tripping over it" are valid concerns for me as I tend to be absent minded/rushing around/clumsy. Plus I'm still getting used to having small children underfoot (adopted this year.) I think I'll eliminate the step option altogether. Thank you guys!

JohnLiu raises some good points too, as usual. I need a large pantry because we're rural. It's a half hour to get to any store, and we're working towards producing most of our food. We need a LOT of room for food storage. I'd love to hear any suggestions for utilizing the pantry better.

I was originally planning to put a countertop in the pantry. But the room on the other side of the pantry is turning out to be kind of a kitchen overflow as well. It started out as a laundry/sewing room but after reading the clutter room thread, I expanded it to 16' and added a sink and countertop. It'll be used for the space hogs that clutter up my countertops now. Things that need to be handy but don't deserve prime real estate: the dehydrator, grain mill, cheese press and meat slicer.

So all that to say, do you think adding a countertop in the pantry is redundant? I think it's too late to put a sink in there because it's a poured slab floor and there's no water lines nearby. (I would've just eliminated the pantry and added the space to the laundry room, but can't now because the electrical stuff is on that wall.)

I've been kneading on the kitchen table and I suppose I could just keep doing that. I visited an Amish kitchen once and was struck by how they turned out great quantities of food with a very rudimentary kitchen. They kneaded on their kitchen table too. :)

Hi. Coming to this discussion late, but my mother's kitchen has an arrangement very similar to yours, Rosieo (see pix in link below). She did a lower section of her counter from refrig (I'm assuming that's your refrig on the left) almost all the way to where the counter turns the corner -- about 7 feet. From there to the corner and around to the other side, the counter is "standard height." A longer version of Aliris' pictures. As you can maybe see from the pix, the regular height countertop extends a bit over the other to make the transition. It works really well and looks good (or so we think -- but we are biased!).

Having that long run of lower counter makes it clear that the lower counter was purposeful and it's enough room for making bread, rolling out cookie dough and for her and her grandkids to do cookie making (since it's only 25" wide like a regular counter). I'm only 5'4" too , so when we visit, I do a lot of other work there and enjoy the lower height. Thus, when we did a minor redo of our kitchen, I included a lower section to our island for all these reasons. I love it!

So, IMHO, go for it!

Here is a link that might be useful: My Mother's Kitchen Pix

Ah! Just figured out how to post a picture instead of a link. This might be easier to view. (Please ignore the folks in the pix!) This is the pix of the longer run of lower-height counter and then the higher countertop (behind the people).