36", cabinet to cabinet, means you'll only have about 33" when the doors and counter overhang are figured in. I'm sorry to say that yes, I think it's too tight, especially in front of the fridges. Do they have full size doors? It would be awkward to stand there and open a full-size door and have to navigate around it, etc.

The other issue is that the narrow island is a barrier between the fridges and the stove and 2nd sink, making your path to make a meal pretty long and involved. Islands can make life easier for working in a kitchen with multiple workers, but because of the tightness here, it makes things worse.

Also remember that a trash pullout next to the corner will need a bit of space to its left in order to clear the drawers/door and knob or pulls on the cabinet on the adjacent run.

Thanks rhome! The fridges are 24" deep and open at 90 degrees to 56". I know it is tight and that is why I was asking. This plan includes pushing out both side walls (one into the den and the other to outside). Attached is the plan if we only push out a small part to outside, just to accommodate the table, large because we have 7 kids.
I think I have resigned myself to not having an island, but do you think, with only 56" counter to counter, that the bottom of the U will be too squishy for more than one cook? If yes, I think we will have to extend out anyway and not even get an island for our efforts, so I would rather not.

We have 8 kids, so I know about fitting more than one cook!

Most counter-depth fridges are actually more than 24" deep, so are you sure the F&Ps aren't also?

Is that your only dining space? I'd hate to have to always slide 3 people onto a bench that dead-ends.

This last plan has some problems. You have a double oven and microwave stacked together? I don't think that will work, unless you're talking about one of those ovens that's single sized and divided in 2. Either way having a full-height unit right there next to the corner would be difficult... No access to the corner and something big looming right in the midst of the work counters.

I like to draw plans with some doors open, like the dishwasher, oven, and fridge, just to see how the space looks when things are in use. I'm not sure exactly when you use which things in a Kosher kitchen, but I think you'll find some conflicts when you see what it looks like with doors open, and maybe draw some circles for people working at crucial spots, like the sinks and stove.

Thanks again for the tip about the oven being at the end of the run. I also had the same layout but with the cooktop there instead. See attached. As for the bench, next school year I only have 1 child left at home. The rest are grown or away at school. And when everyone is home, we eat in the dining room anyway. The bench is for the grand-kids and they can scoot in.
The fridges are out in this plan anyway. but they ARE 27' as you mentioned! I have a french door fridge which I will keep and add a small additional fridge in the dinette area.
As for the double oven and micro, I actually did research on it and it is done, although not often. see photo in link.
I am okay with it, because I need the drawers under the cooktop more than the micro at lower level, especially since we are not big micro users anyway. With two sets of dishes and pots etc. we need the drawers desperately. That's my biggest issue with my current kitchen.
As for drawing with the doors open, that is a great idea! My biggest concern is having someone at the stove and needing to open the dishwasher. Seldom happens, but it could when everyone is home for holidays.
Your input is really appreciated!

Here is a link that might be useful: [Double oven and micro cabinet[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/sudbury-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-boston-phvw-vp~109682)

OOPS!! just realized this picture shows a tv above the ovens, not the micro.
Check out this other link!

Here is a link that might be useful: [Double oven and micro cabinet[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-dallas-phvw-vp~40700)

and another

Here is a link that might be useful: [Double oven and micro cabinet[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-craftsman-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-portland-phvw-vp~131722)

and one more!

Here is a link that might be useful: [Double oven and micro cabinet[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-contemporary-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~121500)

Typically, a double oven will be somewhere around 50-52" and you will have a 4" toe kick, meaning that your microwave is going to have the lowest part of it's door opening at approximately 55-57". So, that's workable...but I would caution that the lower oven is going to be a bit uncomfortable to use because it will need to sit so low (just above the toe kick area)

I wonder if it would be a more comfortable oven height to use two 30" areas and have the wall ovens side by side, making them into tall wall units - a little less counter space, you would have a drawer unit under each of the ovens where you could keep some of your cooking accessories and the microwave could go over one of the ovens.

Those double wall oven/micro photos are criminal KD malpractice. A wall oven mounted that low sits much lower than the oven in a range. I suppose you overlook the pulled groin muscle when you get distracted by the boiling soup running down your arm from the overhead micro.

I can't tell whether you could do this but can you put two ranges next to each other? Maybe against the far skinny wall? Then put the sinks on either side around where the cooktop is now. One of the towns we considered buying in had a fair number of kosher kitchens, and I always thought the most successful were the ones that strove for symmetry or tried to bunch together certain elements. In any case, two ranges is generally the cheapest way to get two separate cooktops and two separate ovens.

Thanks AndreaK,
Ideally, we would move into a larger home with a larger kitchen. But, since most of our kids are out of the house, it seems silly to go to a bigger house, right?
But, the kitchen as it is now has finally gotten to me!!
In order to get everything I want, I would have to give up my den/office or make a huge extension. Quite costly and not worth it.
So now I am stuck trying to figure out a way to get everything I want in a tight space.
Basically, the kitchen now is 9 feet wide. We can extend out 2 feet and extend into the den 18". We need to have 2 separate ovens, micros, dishwashers, sinks, sets of drawers and ample counters for each (dairy and meat). Oh, and no plumbing on the outside (left) wall. Any suggestions for layouts would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!
I've tried all kinds of designs and none gets everything. That is why I am trying to condense (like the double w micro in one space). But I am also worried that it won't work in actuality. Below is a sample of this type of unit.
HELP!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!

Marcolo,
thankfully, I don't need two ranges. I use one side for dairy and one for meat and don't need more than 2 burners for each. The other option is a regular range and use the oven and OTR micro for meat and a wall oven/micro combo for dairy. this is okay, except for the pot drawers I will miss that I would have had under the cooktop. All the wall oven/micro cabinets I looked at only have one drawer below the oven so I will lose a whole 30" drawer. I probably will have no choice, especially since your point about hot soup makes a LOT of sense!!!!

As for the wall oven/micro at the end of the run-my plan was to put a roll up or pop up door over the dummy corner and use it to hide the food processor etc. Plus, this way, there is a separation between the dairy and meat runs, which can either be the range or the wall oven unit.
Any comments on the idea for the corner?

Another option is to just have a double wall oven and the micros in upper cabinets. With the extensions, it is do-able, cause I have a lot of uppers.

So far, based on comments, I think the best option is the 18" widening of the kitchen into the den.

Isn't there some gematria for kitchen design to help figure all this out?

LOL docmamma!! Don't I wish it were that simple!
The latest design, using the comments and some creative thinking is below. What do you think?

I think I like this one. Do you need both microwaves or are you showing 2 options? I really dislike OTR microwaves, so hope that's just an option and not a plan.

Also, for selection's sake, I'd leave room for a 30" oven, so you're not so limited by the smaller size. Some manufacturers only make 30", I think.

I dislike them too, but I do need two micros. think i might just put this one in an upper like I did with the other one. there are 27 and 24" ovens for built in and I don't really need a large one for dairy, so it is better to use the space for cabinets than a larger oven.
I really like this one too. I didn't think of it before, because of the existing back window, but as you can see, I have fixed that problem. Hubby says the work for the windows is minimal and he is fine with it.
We start construction soon, so I have to make up my mind...:)

If you're running uppers along both walls, ending at the range/window wall, there should be plenty of opportunity to add another mw.

Changed a couple of things around to make room for micro-can't put it above the sink, so moved sink to the beginning of the run (that's where it is now anyway).
Thanks so much for your help!!

this is the new base cabinet set up

You say you have it now, so you know whether it works, but I think it'd be difficult and messy (water on the floor) to have a sink at the end of a run, and would want to change it. Can the sink go to the other side of the dw by the trash...just swap the 30 inch base cabs, and redo the uppers accordingly?

I am a little confused: do you ned a pair of double ovens and a pair of MWs? Or are you thinking of one regular oven and one MW, each, for meat and dairy?

Have you considered one of the fancier ovens that are both convection (conventional oven function) and MW. I think one brand is an Advantium, but I may be wrong as I am not in the market for separate ovens so I kind of screen out the discussions about them as means of keeping focused on the things I do need to know about. If you could combine both MW and conventional oven in the same cavity, that would save you space. Its utility would depend on whether you can work around having one oven and one method at the same time available for each category of food in a given meal.

Another thought is that some ranges have double ovens (not just large 48" models, the ones I'm thinking of are stacked vertically). I'm not sure if stacked ovens would still be Kosher, even if strictly used separately? Perhaps the ranges that offer this are larger than 30" but it might be worthwhile to go up to a 36" stacked oven range if that saved you other much-needed space.

Another thing to think about regarding layout is this: what is the pattern of how food moves around in your kitchen enroute from storage to prep/cooking to plating. I'm looking at your diagram with the oven stack in the upper right hand corner and wondering if that's the best placefor it.

For instance, tonight I am cooking chicken which I will start on the range and then finish in the oven so that's one pathway and it involves a hot pot so I would want to have the meat area close to the range top. But what about mac and cheese? I cook the noodles, drain them and then combine with cheese and milk and then back in the oven it goes. I am thinking it might be more convenient to have the wall oven stack at the bottom end of the left counter run and locate the fridge at the bottom right corner. This would keep your hot zone relatively compact, and of all the zones I think the hot zone is where that is most important, for efficiency, convenience and safety. Let's say you use the wall oven for dairy then you could have a dairy plunk space between it and the range. Cook dairy on the left side of the range these two can share the plunk space. Cook meat on the right and use the range oven for meat, as well. Plunk space for meat on the right.

Can you store both meat and dairy in the same fridge? (Sorry to be so ignorant of Kosher practices!) If you can then I would have the dairy sink on the right hand leg and the meat sink on the top, perhaps shifted towards the left some. Then you could have an uninterrupted (somewhat)compact meat sink to meat side of the range counter run, and keep the remaining counter area for dairy, which I assume includes baking?

What I am suggesting would be a bit cumbersome in a non-Kosher kitchen, but I think takes care of the essential need for separation better. At the same time keeping you from having to traipse from one side of the kitchen to the other with hot pots that need both range-top and oven cooking. Having the hot zone compacted would also allow for convenience in those times when you need to keep something cooked on the range top warm in a nearby oven - think keeping a stack of pancakes warm while you cook others to make up the meal.

I'm not sure how you would fully separate the change over (at the right of the meat sink) from meat to dairy. Perhaps one solution would be to have a change in counter height. If the area was used for baking perhaps a lower counter (often preferred for kneading dough) section would be an appropriate and effective separation.

If you need more affirmative separation, perhaps that could be the fridge with appropriate counters on each side as plunk space. In that case I would put the fridge on the counter run at the top of the diagram. Though I'll admit this plays havoc with your window plans. But it would effectively divide your kitchen counters into definitive meat and dairy zones.

HTH

L.

L.

I like the layout, except for the sink at the end of the run. Can you swap the DW and the sink at the end? That may be more useful and it gives you counter space on both sides of the sink.
liriodendron makes a great point with the advantium ovens. A friend recently purchased them for precisely the reason you would - she needed separate for meat and dairy. Perhaps you could have 2 advantiums's but keep the range so you can essentially have 2 meat ovens. It will make a huge difference when preparing shabbat and holiday meals for large crowds.

liriodendron, thanks for the tips. For dairy, until now, I have been using a toaster oven which is far away from my stove and never had an issue. The meat oven will be the one in the range, so that takes care of that.
as for convection, I am old-school and don't like using it. I know, I am probably silly, but I also don't like the noise from the fan and when kept on over a jewish holiday, it is awful. As for the 2 oven stove: 1) kind of expensive 2) the lower oven is on the floor and the upper oven is short.
I do need 2 full ovens and would like to add a dairy microwave which we don't have now and would make life easier.
As for the sink at the end, I actually have been living with that for 15 years and can continue. I was going to put the dishwasher on the corner, but then emptying it will be a hassle and so far away from cabinets where the stuff goes.

liriodendron, I am trying to follow all your ideas, but since I am not a professional, I am getting kind of confused. It is at all possible, if not inconvenient, to just do a quick sketch so I can understand what your advising? If not, don't worry. I'll figure it out.

Thanks to all who have responded! Really helps!

and liriodendron, the stove is the divider between dairy and meat and the fridge is where it is because that is where we will start the addition, so it will be recessed. It is a huge french door 36 x 36 (with handles). As for meat and dairy, we use the main fridge for meat and parve (fruits, veggies, condiments etc.) and have a separate small fridge just for actual dairy (milk, cheese, etc)which we also end up using for beverages since there isn't enough room in the other one.
That is why, ideally, if I had the space I would have loved to get the fisher and paykel fridges-dream!!! But, kitchen is too small for 66" of fridge and the shape (with doorways, etc.) doesn't allow for it. :(

liriodendron, I am looking at the last layout I posted, and it would be very easy to put the oven/micro on the left wall (dairy) at the end near the stove, instead of next to the fridge. I actually think that would look good and work well! Thanks so much for the tip!

We had the same type of dilemma. We ended up putting the microwaves in upper cabinets. Here is a picture that shows our double oven and one of the microwaves. The other microwave is near the dairy side:

SHira, that is what the latest designs are showing, but instead of a double oven, I am thinking of using 1) a regular range for meat with a micro in an upper, and 2) a built in oven in the base cabinet and micro in the upper for dairy.
How large is your kitchen? I am amazed at what you fit in there!!! Very impressive!
Right now, our kitchen has a milchig and fleishig side but I am missing a milchig oven and dishwasher more than anything, which is why we are doing this work. Plus, what I didn't show in the diagrams is the Pesach kitchen which is at the bottom near the table. The table is now at the top and we have to cover the whole kitchen etc. So, with this new plan, I can just block off the chometz kitchen and use the table for pesach.

Suzy,

You seem to have gotten the gist of what I was (in my usual rambling way) suggesting. The main points being trying to get the hot zone more unified and not spread accross the kitchen while still maintaining the needed separation and to get the wall oven stack out of the counter run in the upper right corner of an earlier drawing - where it was was a visual barrier that would make your kitchen seem cramped.

I understand, now, that you can't move the fridge (and I learned something, too that pareve food can be stored with meat; I never knew whether it was meat or dairy or something to do with Kosher for Passover.)

Three issues remain for me:

1)I would try to move the dishwasher (or something else) to the position below (as seen on your diagram) the sink on the right hand leg. Having a sink w/o counter or landing space on both sides is not usually a good idea. If you moved the DW to the other (table) end of the counter you'd have a landing space for dishes coming back from the table and then they could be stowed on the range side of the sink making for more convenient plating, as well. Also the traffic bottleneck that occurs when the DW door is down would be moved farther away from the central cooking/prep zone on either side of the range.

2) You have the milk (milchig?) oven parked slap in the right angle. That generally doesn't work without having a spacer/blind space to allow for the oven door to bypass the handles on the drawers at right angles to it. Just a few inches is needed but you have to plan for it.

3) I would also try to incorporate some of the dummy corner space via the lazy or super susans. Some of them are very crafty in allowing acccess to the otherwise wasted space. They are not cheap, but compared to structural changes to get more cab space they're a bargain. I'm not up on all the permutations - others know more about them and which brands and designs are best, so I'll leave that to others to offer suggestions.

May I ask one thing, though, I am not familiar with the terms chometz and pesach? Am I correct in inferring that they mean daily and prepared for Passover, respectively? I am always keen to find out about unfamiliar kitchen arrangements.

Also did you do a Google search for Kosher kitchens discussed here? There have been several and they may be useful to you. The on-site GW search function is pretty pathetic but if you search for the info on Google you'll turn up long ago, scrolled-off discussions that covered Kosher kitchen plans.

HTH
L.

Here is the basic layout of my kitchen (its not the most up to date version, but its close enough):

Also, I don't like the placement of the undercabinet oven. You lose a corner. I know many people hate corner cabinets, but I love my lazy suzan. Its enormous and holds a ton of electric appliances (my 2 crockpots, my george foreman, my blender, food processer, hand blender, some baking pans...). Don't block it even if you think you won't use it. At the very least, put in corner drawers!

I'll try to take a better look at your layout later today and comment on functionality. But I definitely wouldn't do a 24" oven unless you rarely do dairy.

Also, have you considered corner sinks? From your drawing I assume you don't like corner cabinets. Then you gain more lower drawer space.

What about putting the milchig microwave over the small fridge? I would also put a small landing space above the small fridge so people can prep something quick to go into the microwave above.
I'm playing around with your layout a bit, will post when I have something I like.

the milchig fridge is not small. it is actually really tall, bottom mount, 24 x 24 made by LG. cool and functional since we need the extra freezer space too.
I have about 50-60 layouts I have worked on, including many with corner sinks. When I lived in NY I had corner sinks and I am not crazy about them. Also, in most of my original plans, I had the magic corner cabinet (I really do not like lazy suzans, no offense) but I finally decided to just ignore the space and make it a dummy. If necessary, I can always go back to it although I am not that keen on it. I know it is a waste of space, but then I lose 18" on the side (which is what it calls for) and that is what turned me off.
Pesach is passover and chometz literally means "Leavened Bread" but term is used for "all year round". You got it right!! and milchig is milk. fleishig is meat!
See below one of my first designs. I like your design, Shira, with the corner sinks, diagonally across. Cool! I am going to try it later when I get home from work.

For a kosher kitchen, I think thats MUCH more functional. My concern is that you are putting the dairy fridge on the meat side though.

Corner sinks aren't my favorite either, but I have two dishwashers! Seriously, I run those 90% of the time and do very little dishwashing. (I've had my kitchen functional for about 2 weeks). Also, I store my cutting boards and baking sheets there because its deep and large. We were debating with corner sinks or not but we wanted to drawer storage more than we didn't want corner sinks.

I would also make the pantry deeper now since the large fridge is next to it.

I would make the banquette into an L shaped bench, which should give you more flexibility with in/out and add an extra seat.

I have other layouts I did, in which some of what you said is already done. The main reason i didn't like the 2 corner sinks where they are is because of washing on shabbos. not only having to come to the kitchen but then all the way to the end of it, so I wanted a sink near the entry. that's why I really think your diagonal corner sinks are cool and I am going to try it out in a my most current layout and see how that works when I get home. Bad girl that I am even typing this message!!! ;)

OK. Home sweet home and fiddling around with the corner sinks.
See below what I have come up with. I actually really like it and am getting a lot more cabinet space, especially since getting rid of the double wall oven. I also love the dairy oven and micro in base and upper cabinets, which gives me additional counter space.
Any comments?
Uppers layout to follow.

Uppers. I really like it, but I had to put the micro above the range instead of in an upper for meat, because can't extend deep over sink and then not symmetrical.

BTW, dairy fridge is near table and that's fine for us because right now it is inside the pesach kitchen, far far away, so this is already better.
And, deep uppers are for china dishes and serving pieces etc. in case anyone was wondering.
Also, below is the layout of my current kitchen, so you can see how much more I will be gaining.

Oh, and I didn't design the current kitchen. Bought the house with it, but added the dairy side where there was nothing at all. Horrible layout and I am tired of not having milk dishwasher and oven!!!
Here's hoping that without an island (I wish!!) I will be happy anyway (tsk, tsk, you give them an inch, they want a mile LOL)!!

OK, hope I am not making anyone crazy. Had a chance to tweak and I am IN LOVE with this kitchen!! Finally, an idea that is giving me TONS of counter, as if I had an island ;) and everything else I want.
Reversed the milk and meat sides and adding magic corner instead of dummy, makes much more sense and I think, by jove, she's got it!! (hopefully)

Any comments?

layout

After looking at it again, I think the meat sink is too far away from the stove. So I moved it. What do you think?