Thurman,

I am so very sorry for your loss. I lost my dad unexpectedly five years ago this coming Christmas, and like Cindy_Pond, I still cry too.

Knowing some of the past history of the relationship between you and your SD, I can see how her presence will aggravate you and only add anger to your grief. It's too bad that you have to deal with this on top of your immense loss, but that being said (let's forget about the feelings of DW and SD for now), how might your son feel when you request that his half-sister not attend his grandfather's services? It sounds from past posts that he sometimes sides with his mom and sister over the issues you have with your SD.

Is there a way you can speak to your DW to find a happy medium? Perhaps your SD can attend the wake, assuming there will be one, and not attend the actual funeral. If this is a one day service, then perhaps she can attend the chapel portion and not go to the graveside for the burial. I do understand your need to not have her there, but I am just trying to think of a compromise that might spare you any negative fallout that will only prolong and deepen your grief.

Again, you have my deepest sympathy,
Geri

Sorry I didn't read Ima's post before I posted. I am so sorry for you loss.

Emotions are so intense at times like this.

A couple suggestions I have are:
1) Share your feelings with your wife. It sounds like she already knows about how uncomfortable you feel around your SD. Ask your wife if she has any suggestions to make this easier for you.

2) Pretend in your mind that your SD is there bcz she genuinely cares. Treat her and think about her in the ways you wish it really were.

I, too, am sorry for your loss. I wish you peace.

Thurman,

I too am so sorry for you loss. Both of my parents are gone and I miss them terribly. Grief is a hard thing to live through. It will stay with you for a long time. Don't be surprised if this is really difficult for you. It's a big deal to have your father pass.

I can understand your not wanting to have the SD there if you are afraid that she is going to make a big scene or something. There really isn't anyway to avoid talking to you wife about it if you absolutely think that you couldn't make it through the services with her there. Perhaps if you would consider just focusing on your family and your dad's friends that will be there to show their respect to you and your dad it would seem less important that she was there. You will be grieving and reminiscing with many people. Should she make a scene or become a nuisance to you then you could have it prearranged with your wife that she be asked to leave. Your emotions are hypersensitive right now and it's easy to focus them on something or someone else to avoid the hurt that you are feeling. I'm not saying that you aren't entitled to your feelings about SD I just think that once you get to the service your focus good easily be taken up by other things.

I wish you healing and peace.

Minnesota mama: Just had to let you know how cool you really are!!! Your response left me wishing we were neighbors. Too few people with your mindset. you made my day.
Cindy

To all of the newer folks here -- Thurman has been around this forum a long time, and has complained about the issues he's having with his SD for years. His wife staunchly defends her daughter and Thurman's frequent criticism of her is a sore spot.

So what vile things has his SD done?

- She has walked into the room without greeting him on multiple occasions, or failed to greet him when he walked into the room.
- She walked right by a newspaper he dropped and didn't pick it up. And she saw him drop the newspaper!
- She has borrowed her younger brother's (Thurman's son) dumbbells from his room without asking.
- She sent either get well or Christmas cards to his parents behind Thurman's back.
- She greets her mother and brother warmly and with great affection, but shows no such affection for him.
- Her visits home (from medical school in another state) are pure torture for Thurman, who has to put up with her the entire time she's home.

So far, she has never made a public scene, and all of her vile manipulative actions are so sneaky and subtle that her mother can't see them. But Thurman is on to her...

Thank you for posting the recap Sweeby. As a long time lurker I have been following Thurman's story. His SD is never going to do right in his eyes so she doesn't try anymore. If she doesn't show up at the funeral she is heartless. If she does, she did it just to piss him off. She could send a condolence card to his mom, but then he would be contacting his mom again behind his back. SD can't do anything with out Thurman believing it is some slight against him.

Thurman,

First, please let me say that i am truly sorry for the loss of your father.

For once, listen to your heart. You are right not to want your SD at the services, around you, near you, during this difficult time.

Tell your wife about your feelings and that you do not want your SD to be at the services. You do not want to IMPRESS no body at the services. You are there to pay hommage to your father and to see all of the people who are there for your father.

If your wife does react in a very negative way to what you want, let her be! Let her be! Let her be! Let her be! She will not leave you. She will not leave you! She will not leave you.

And as far as your son is concerned, tell him those are your wishes not to have your SD at the services and that you will explain it more to him later.

Good luck Thurman. Do what is right in your heart. You are numero uno here in this situation.

I truly understand your situation with your SD. I have had difficulties with one of my SD's for 18 of the 19 years i have been with her father.

Believe it or not, today our relationship has greatly improved and i am of the opinion it is because one day i decided to treat her the same way she treated me. I did that for months, perhaps a year, and believe me it was hard for me to act like that but it worked.

Today, this SD who is 28 yrs old has much more respect for me. In fact, this year is the first time she has given me a beautiful birthday card and she comes over to our house almost every week and believe it or not it really doesn't stress me anymore. We actually laugh sometimes.

I am thinking of you Thurman in these difficult times. I also lost my father.

I am sorry for your loss however the very fact that you can think of how to EXCLUDE someone from the funeral is beyond sad. It is unthinkable to me. i doubt you are for real.

ima, sorry for your loss...must be very tough on you and your dad.

When was I married to my first husband his mother died. His brother, who was going through a divorce at the time, was livid because his soon to be EX had the nerve (his view point not mine) to attend the funeral. They had been married for nearly 20 years and the woman honestly felt a huge loss also. She came to the funeral, did not make a scene and then also came to the grave site. She hung back from the rest of the family and when I saw her I waited until everyone had left the grave site and she and I talked. She cried, I cried and felt terribly sorry for her......My BIL had a fit. He was so mad at me he couldn't see straight. His exact words were...."That woman ruined my mother's funeral!"....She did nothing of the sort..........I just wanted to let you know that there are people out there that would think of how to exclude someone from a funeral. I was warned not to speak to my SIL before hand. I let him know that I didn't take orders from him on who to speak to.

I get a little frustrated with these posts at times. I don't go back to research things and then read things like Sweeby posted. It really makes me wish that I would remember to take with less seriousness the topic at hand. There are two sides to every story. Some times more.

After reading the post from finedreams I had to write again.
I lost my father three years ago. I don't think a day goes by without my thinking of him and tearing up. If I thought for one minute my stepchildren were considering coming to his viewing I would have posted an armed guard at the door. If this seems harsh to some, well then its obvious you haven't lived with the horrible stepchildren who's manipulations,stealing, lying,drug abuse, and general blatant disregard for anyone else but themselves was a daily ritual. You cannot assign blame to someone for wanting to protect his family and his fathers memory from the phony show of some stepchildren. I think that post from finedreams is appalling!!!!!

I dunno, Cindy_Pond, I guess people disagree on how to deal with someone you don't like in a situation with larger & more important than those having the mutual dislike. My SM has been all the things you mentioned about your SK's: horrible, manipulative, phony, selfish, lying, and even some of the other stuff. So I guess it's obvious that she and I don't exactly get along. She's made it very clear for many years that doesn't like me and the feeling has become quite mutual. I would be willing to put money on the guess that if she were left to her own choices about my father's funeral/burial/memorial arrangements (my Dad has made his wishes clear but we'll see if she actually follows them) she would exclude me because of her own personal feelings about me. (Goodness knows she continually tries her best to do so, in general.) But as much as *my personal feelings about her* are tainted by *my own experience* of her and the aforementioned nasty behaviors, I would NEVER in a million years exclude her from it if it was up to me. NEVER, NEVER NEVER because that would be wrong. And it's wrong not just because we're talking about my Dad/her husband (as opposed to a more distantly-related person) but it's wrong because that would be making MY FEELINGS and WISHES more important than those of the individual who is there to be honored. Furthermore, it deprives the deceased of one more person's respects and well wishes, and it cheapens and lowers the tone of the event to a negative and exclusionary one marked by absence and division. One might think no one will notice the individuals' absence (which is the whole goal of excluding them) but everyone notices who isn't there, and they don't just assume it's all their fault. Who-wasn't-there at these types of events becomes more of a topic at these events than the person being honored, and that is a s***y thing to do to that honored person. That said, there are surely SOME instances where a given individual has proven through specific actions that they cannot be trusted to behave respectfully at this specific type of occasion. But I'd still say take the risk and invite them anyway, making it very clear that you will not hesitate to kick them out at the first sign of any disrespect. Unless you have very clear evidence or expressly stated desires from the deceased person, it should NOT BE YOUR CALL to *pre-emptively* exclude somebody from that individual's important event if they and the honored individual had a decent relationship. That's just how I feel about it. There are just times when we all have to suck things up and just DEAL with the fact that a loved one has had other people in his/her life that we personally may not LIKE but whom the loved one HAS, and these people have rights as we do, no matter how we feel about it. Grief, like love, as the saying goes, "is not a pie". It's not finite, it doesn't have to be apportioned out. One individual's grief (or love) for a person does not take away from someone else's, unless somebody lets it or insists on viewing it as a finite resource to be unnecessarily fought over, literally to the death. Barring cases of blatant abuse, criminal action or disrespect (of which one form is exclusion, in my book), if a person feels impinged on by someone else's grief for a loved one, ultimately it is their own problem to get over.

Like Cindy, I recently lost both of my parents to cancer. And yet, my reactions and feelings have been so very different. If someone I despised (not many) were to attend the funeral or viewing, my feelings would more likely have been "How surprising that even Horrible Person recognized my mother's wonderfulness and cared enough to show up here. Maybe Horrible isn't so horrible after all..." And while there are very few days that go by when I don't think of my parents, I've made it a rule to remember only the good times, and I think of them both with smiles and admiration, not tears. Peace comes easily when there's no anger to block it.

The whole thing is -- We interpret other people's actions through colored lenses. When you expect the best from people, you very often get it; when you expect the worst from them, you can always manage to find it. And this is where Thurman is with his SD. The things he fumes over are so minor and could be interpreted any number of ways. But he has poisoned her in his mind and there is nothing she could do that he would not think ill of.

Cindy, that kind of ill-will poisons the person who harbors it, not the person against whom it is intended. Let go of your anger and feel your hurt melt away.

cindy, i am sorry you have such awful stepkids. but truman described his stepdaughter many times before. she is not stealing, lying or using drugs. the way he previously described her she is a decent human being, she does not do anything to him, he just does not like her. actually he didn't like the fact that she was communicating to his parents, like sending cards etc and now he complains that she didn't have a relationship with them.

he was her stepfather since she was a little girl. it could not possibly be her fault that she saw her grandparents twice in her life.

Ima please accept my sincerest condolences at the death of your stepmother. I know that she meant a great deal to you and that your relationship with her was hard won and that much of the amazing person you are today comes from your understanding of her.

Thurman, I'm sorry for the loss of your father. Ima, condolences for the loss of your stepmother. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Thurman, I think you could look at your SD's desire to attend your father's funeral in more than way. If you really believe she is just going to get attention, be dramatic or because she thinks you won't like it for some reason, then treat her as you will treat every other person there who comes up to offer their support to you as a grieving son: with dignity and grace. Easier said than done, I'm sure, but you will have to say "Thank you" that day to so many people, and will be observed by so many people during your most private grief, that it will probably just all become a blur. Remember: it is about celebrating the life of your father, and saying goodbye to him.

On the other hand, if your SD ever knew or came into contact with your father, she is entitled to feel whatever loss she feels and pay her respects - even if mostly out of guilt for not being closer to him when he was alive. When my paternal grandmother died in 2005, it was very painful for my father. My stepmother and her parents came, my mom and brother, and my maternal grandmother, along with hundreds of family members and many people I had never met. My mom and stepmom, nana and step-grandparents, literally stood outside the church beforehand laughing about memories of my grandmother. My dad and mom have been divorced for over 20 years, but it was of enormous comfort to him that all of these people who had known and loved his mother came to pay their respects. What linked us all was my deceased grandmother, and that is all anyone was focused on.

Good luck to you, and focus on your dad.

Serenity, I would never ever exclude my stepchildren from their own fathers funeral. I was speaking about my father who they did not even know. Now that they are grown, we are actually cordial to one another. I told both of them that they didn't have to like me, just respect the fact that their dad chose me and treat my with civility...it took years, but it has happened. I think for many of those years we were all competing, whether we knew it or not, for the same man's affection. The situation was so complicated, that it would take hours to write. We have all done a great deal of growing up and I really do need to stop and put the hurt in the past. It has a way of creeping up when emotional subjects arise... . I guess I was a bit harsh in my last post. I got caught up empathizing with thurman without knowing the whole story. I am sorry finedreams for jumping all over you. Thank you sweeby, serenity, and finedreams for the things that you said. Sometimes when you know the whole story and look at things with a different perception, it can make the whole situation seem very different then it was. This forum has given me so many points of view. I started on the garden pond one and gravitated to this. I guess there are no accidents.

Thurman, i've very sorry for your loss. I would agree with sweeby on this one.

Thank you folks for your condolences. Also, thank you for your words of wisdom and even criticisms. I did raise it with my wife. She did get very upset and it caused an even greater rift between us. My S/D was not planning to attend, so in this case, I overreacted when doing nothing was the best route. But my siblings, who hardly know her, took the liberty of including my S/D as a surviving grandchild in the obituary. My wife said "would you have taken her name out if you were asked?" and I hemmed and hawed because I knew she would blow a gasket if I answered honestly. I'm already dreading Thanksgiving, if my S/D makes it to our house.

Thurman,
When you married your wife, you took on her children. Including her children in the obituary is the classiest thing to do. This is not about you. I am sorry for your loss, but this goes beyond your personal feelings. When someone dies or is married, graduates, etc, it is up to those who are able to take the higher ground. As an adult, it is up to you to set the standard. I am truly sorry for you and your loss. Now, be the bigger person, and include your SD. She will learn from your example.

I am sorry for your loss.

Didnt you say that your SD had recently sent your parents cards? Or do I have you confused with someone?

From an ealier post --

a weird adult s/d Brought to you by
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Posted by thurman (My Page) on Tue, Jun 24, 08 at 23:58

These are the little things that drive me crazy.
My S/D is now 27. She sent my parents each a Father's Day and Mother's Day card. She never said a word to me about it, even though she was on the phone with me twice over the past few weeks.

8888888888888888888888888

I am truly sorry for your loss -- possibly others see your SD as closer to your parents than you do.

Thurman, do you care to explain why that upset you/drove you crazy? Because I don't understand at all!

Again, I am sorry for your loss.
For your sake and for harmony in your marriage I wish you would give serious consideration to the responses you have received on the Step parent forum. Your SD is an adult now but still a daughter of your wife and always will be. It could be so much better if you could choose to let it go.

I would divorce a man who would treat my daughter this way. I don't want to predict but something tells me your wife might start contemplating that.

i remember that once truman said he attended some event at which people honored his SD as a nice and succesful human being. he was angry that other people like her so much because apparently he knows that she is not all that. he was angry that they actually all like her. very unkind of him

My guess is even Thurmans side of the family likes SD.

To me it sounds personal. I've read a few posts and from my understanding SD does not like thurman and has shown it in many ways from ignoring him and not acknowledging him.
If i was his wife, i would also be pist off at my daughter for not respecting my husband.
This relationship goes both ways. They obviously do not like one another. SD is 27 years old. She is an adult and if she chooses not to like her stepdad that is her perogative and its thurmans right not to like his SD either. You cannot force 2 people to liek one another just because he married her mother. i didnt' like my first stepmom. and i tended to ignore her myself because i really had nothing ot say to her . Thank GOd she left and my second stepmom is the best! She just phoned me from the hospital to tell me my dads status. She is by his side through thick and thin. And yes. SHe is my MOM. But we all do not have relationship like this .
So as for thurmans wife, she should accept the fact those both her husband and her daughter do not like one another and she can fret all she likes but i do not think putting the full blame on her husband is right. It takes two to tango. And her daughter is also to blame in this deal for her behaviour just as thurman is. And at time both are not to blame as well. Sometimes , you just do not like someone...for no reason. So thurman, you should speak with your wife and just plain tell her ' i know you are angry but please understand that your daughter and i just do not like one another and that is not entirely my fault. You cannot force me and her ot have a relationship brady bunch.'

OM, It also seems that Thurman tries to keep his wife from seeing his SD. That is wrong.

LOL. Still wondering who Thurman really is. And why Thurman you haven't defended yourself against some of the outrageous assertions made by TOS, KKNY and others?

I didn't think this forum was for having to defend your position, but sadly, I'm finding that most people are having to do that...I have found it somewhat helpful, but alot of value judgements are being made, when for the most part it's impossible to convey by typing, some very complicated family matters. I thought this was a place to share and ask for advice and to gain insight into situations that we've lost objectivity with. I know I carry a lot of guilt for some of my feelings and we shouldn't have to leave this forum carrying more...none of us should have to dodge bullets.

Colleen,

In his own words, Thurman has resented his SD sending cards to his parents, and resents his wife having lunch with SD. I think he has objectivity.

My stepdaughter roundly reemed me out for sending a christmas card to fellow inlaws without asking her permission first and you thought that was ok. HUH?

Dont recall, but then why do you defend a man, as an adult, who chastices SD for this, AND LIMITS CONTACT OF HIS WIFE WITH SD.

I think anyone could send cards to anyone without asking anyone's permission or opinion. i lso believe people can attend funerals without asking anyone's permission. they might not want to go to wakes if they are in people's houses, but attending funerals is totally up to them.

so far nothing in truman's posts indicated that SD is not a decent human being. I am yet to see what is that horrible. everyone likes her but truman, that seems strange.

as about SD seeing them twice in her life...She was a little girl, so if stepfather didn't expose his young stepdaughter to his parents, he is certainly one to blame. and when she started reaching out to them he was unhappy. ha. he needs to be in control. First keep her away from his parents when she was young and then making sure she is not getting close as an adult.

truman came here to ask an advice, my advice is that his actions are not very decent and he unnecessary hurts his wife. if he does not like my advice, oh well. he shouldn't ask. But judging by his wife's reaction i am right on this one, his marriage is in jepoardy because of him, not SD.

Is Thurman not defending himself? Course the "I forgot" routine is very convenient isn't it kkny. So now that I have reminded you do you think it was correct of my stepdaughter to do that to me?

Colleen, I agree with FD, anyone who wants to can send cards. All I seem to remember is you have a difficult relationship with your stepchildren.

FD, I feel for Thurmans wife. I think that his relatives accept the SD speak volumens.

You are very good at remembering what you choose to remember.

So my stepdaughter reeming me out for sending a Christmas card to fellow inlaws without asking her permission was ok? Just answer the bleeding question.

I said this --

Colleen, I agree with FD, anyone who wants to can send cards

I asked you did you think it was ok for my stepdaughter to treat me that way?

No, but my guess is that your relationship wiht her is already confrontantial. Why didnt you just walk away?

Walk away from what?

Tell me how you "just walk away" from this kind of hostility and control? Are you so naive you think it would be a single incident?

No -- I dont think it is a single incident. What no one but you and she can tell is how much is you and how much is her. There are two sides to every story. When Thurmand tells the entire story, one does question.

who is right and who is wrong?

The problem is always trying to find the answer to who is right and who is wrong. The "right thing to do", if what you are looking to do is improve your relationships is to stop trying to make everything so black and white. Sometimes you are right, sometimes somebody else is right. That is the nature of relationships. Unfortunately, if you can't get past all of the percieved wrongs somebody else has done to you, you will not move on and your relationship will not change. Thurman is on here seeking advice, but everytime he gets advice that he doesn't want to hear, he ignores it. If he would try to get past whatever beef he has with his SD and if he starts to see her as she truly is, he would be much better off, and so would she. It doesn't matter what she does, in Thurman's eyes, it is never right. If she did something nice for Thurman, he would view it as being underhanded and for some alternative purpose.

Colleen...I agree with kkny and finedreams that anybody who wants to send a card and to whomever, it's nobody's business exept for the sender and the reciever. So, if you sent a nice card to you SD's inlaws and she blew up at you over that and only that (and nothing else), then you are right and she is wrong. However, what difference does that really make? Why dwell on that? Why not try to move forward and try to make the relationship better instead of focusing on who is right or wrong?

coleen, there must be something else in that story. there is no way you had a wonderful relationship with Sd and then all of a sudden she does this to you. there is always something else. what causes the confrontations between you and her?

could it be she was offended that you cannot have nice relationship wiht her and yet manage to be nice to in-laws? maybe you did not send her anything but send cards to in-laws? I am not saying this is right of her but could it be the case? or she is a controlling type and wants to make sure she is in control of everyone, like thurman wants to know who SD sends cards to.

my husband's kids are exactly why i did not have funeral for my husband. when he had a heart i called them to the hospital, they hung onto each other, crying and saying things like "i may never my dad again". when he went home they didn't visit him for 2 years and they all live within a 20 minute drive from our home. they never came to see our new home, never visited him in the care home. the day he died they didn't even come to the home. i had him creamated and when i placed his ashes in the ground a friend went with me.

Thanks to everyone for posting. It is always helpful to hear everyone's views, even if they are critical.

Like many of the people on this forum, my relationship with my S/D is a complicated one. I just find her to be a negative force in my life, and a divisive force in our home and between my wife and I.

Needless to say, at the most vulnerable point in my life following my Dad's death, I did not want to contend with all of the uneasiness, tension and problems that dealing with the S/D entails. It's not just the S/D. It's my wife's vehement defense of her daughter--knowing she has her daughter's back and not mine. And how we can explode in seconds into an argument over the S/D. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

So, I know it sounds small of me to push for the S/D not to come. But in light of these things, I'm glad she did not come. My Dad's services were special and comforting.

once again sorry for your loss.

i am not surprised your wife has her daughter's back, not yours. would you be interested in a woman who has men's back instead of her children? hhhm.. what kind of woman is that?

especially since your SD never did anything that horrible.

As you may recall Thurman, there are times when my husband can't stand my 18 y.o. son and sees everything he does in a negative light. (There are other times when he's a great SF - supportive, kind, encouraging.) I know this and have come to terms with it, but it's very unattractive and is one of the very few bad spots in our marriage.

Last night, my son did something very thoughtless and inconsiderate and I was very annoyed and disappointed at him. I found myself venting to Hubby about it, but had the foresight to say "Don't jump in - I know how you feel" and thankfully, he had the wisdom to remain silent or say something vague like "I'm sorry." Frankly, that was the highlight of my otherwise lousy day. Had he tried to use that example to prove how inconsiderate my son was, he might had won a point, but he'd have lost something far more valuable.

If you can show the same consideration for your wife that my husband showed me last night -- simply DON'T give voice to your negative feelings about her daughter -- your relationship with your entire family will improve.