Has anyone heard of PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome)

See http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/faq.htm.

PAS is a theory put forth by a Mr. Gardner, who has since comitted suicide. Many reputable people reject it, particularly the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges. (2006). Navigating Custody & Visitation Evaluations in Cases with Domestic Violence: A JudgeÂs Guide (2nd edition). Reno, NV: NCJFCJ.

EXCERPT from page 24: "The discredited "diagnosis" of "PAS" (or allegation of "parental alienation"), quite apart from its scientific invalidity, inappropriately asks the court to assume that the children's behaviors and attitudes toward the parent who claims to be "alienated" have no grounding in reality.

PAS is getting a lot of attention in court these days. While it is not an official disorder, the movement is gaining momentum and popularity.

The American Psychological Association has no official position on PAS, although they do seem to be concerned about the actual naming of PAS. This is because the term "syndrome" suggests that the behavior is a result of a pathological disease or disorder, which it is not.

PAS either exists or doesn't exist depending on which organization you talk to. Women's groups tend to downplay the existence of PAS, while Men's groups argue otherwise. This is understandable, given that most of those accused of PAS are ex wives and mothers.

Children's groups seem to be divided in the middle.

Real or not, PAS is something that is showing up a lot in court these days and is gaining credibility. Richard Gardner's work is all documented and available on the web (just google for it). His sample size was quite small for this type of research and was limited to his own patients. However, he brings up some really good points, so more research should probably be done on the subject.

Given all that, you still only have a small chance of winning a PAS court case, because the most difficult part is proving that the mom is indeed brainwashing the child. In my opinion, no woman doing that kind of thing would, in her right mind, leave evidence.

In terms of your situation, I wouldn't worry, unless she has extra bills burning a hole in her pocket, unlimited access to financial aid, or wants to go on a personal vendetta. Court costs a lot. Furthermore, she will have to prove that abuse took place and I don't know about you, but the last time I checked, vegetarian dinners does not constitute abuse. What are they going to do next, say that using kosher salt instead of regular salt is equivalent to a beating? She's probably doing what most (not all) BM's do -- go ape because her ex is now engaged.

I think the established groups question Gardner, who is self published (not supported by a group). As to whether Vege is a problem, I would think that depends on ages, health, etc. I know in the state where I live, a very young child died of malnutrition while on a vege diet. I think your BF should have discussed it with the mom. I also think that with children going back and forth, it is harder to maintain good food habits. I would suggest your BF work this out with X. Any negiligence issues would be on him, unless he left you alone with them for hours at a tme.

Wow, all this over some vegetarian meals! I would ignore what KKNY has said about how you should discuss what you feed the kids with your fiancee's ex. I hardly think it is her choice what the kids eat when they are with you, as long as it is not junk food all day long!!! I can't imagine eating vegetarian for a few days really harmed them in any way! And so what if they complained about eating veggies...what kid does not complain from time to time about a veggie? Is having a child eat vegetables really considered abuse now? It is not like you starved them! And when you realized that eating vegetarian was not working for them you stopped it! So I do not really see a strong abuse case here!

Has she accussed your fiancee of any child abuse in the past? Some bm's get so angry about their ex having another woman in the picture that they try to use the kids as pawns, which is what she seems to be doing. It is really sad. I hope that for your sake she is all talk.

My dh's ex recently "interrogated" the kids about us. They live with us full time and went to visit her for a few weeks out of state. One of the kids was really upset that her mother had asked her so many questions about my dh and I. She asked ridiculous things like if me and my dh hit eachother and throw stuff at eachother and if my son and I am mean to her and her siblings!!! I was fuming! Then she had also asked her daughter if her dad and me seemed happy together (why would that be her business???)

I am actually worried about ever letting them visit her again, because I was thinking what if she went and did what your fiancee's ex is doing and pressed some false charges against us.

The only advice I can give you is DOCUMENT everything you can remember. If she has made any awful comments or threats make sure you write down dates, times, and what is said. And if you do get served with any papers saying that she is taking you to court go get the advice of a good lawyer.

"a very young child died of malnutrition while on a vege diet."

The wording there is obscure:

children don't die of a vegetarian diet.

They die of starvation.

Media coverage might scream "vegetarian" for the sensational effect, but millions of people live comfortably from the cradle to the grave on vegetarian diets.

As to OP's dilemma, I think I'd question fiance very closely before getting excited, & really, she can't really do anything until or unless something actually happens.

Threats between exes don't always lead to criminal charges, & the authorities may, just *may*, have seen bitterness & vendettas & manipulation often enough in their careers to not be impressed by claims of hunger brought by the mother of a crew of rosy-cheeked, well-nourished children.

if indeed she said anything;
has OP heard her threats directly, or is she just getting reports from fiance?

because it does sound like OP is a little skeptical or doubtful of fiance's attitude:

it sounds like keeping up with the diet, or maybe standing up to complaining children, is too much trouble for him, & like OP may be getting the feeling that he resents her for the inconvenience.

Maybe the vegetarian diet is more her idea than his & he just wants things simple & easy.
If so, telling a brand-new teacher that she might be charged with child-abuse would be a good way to stop her from implementing any more ideas that involved inconvenience or that made the children whiny.

(Offer him a baloney sandwich & see what happens.)

Actually, PAS has lost credibility in recent years, and especially since Gardner committed suicide by stabbing himself multiple times. As kkny said, Gardner's work is almost entirely self-published. He has made numerous questionable (to say the least) statements about pedophilia and incest that made a lot of people extremely uncomfortable or downright horrified.

The American Bar Association published an article debunking this "syndrome" :

http://www.stopfamilyviolence.org/media/Hoult_PAS_admissibility.pdf

I don't know anything about PAS, but I can tell you that I have worked going on 10 years now as a 911 dispatcher for a mid size police department, and I can tell you there have been numerous instances I can recall where one parent manipulated a child into making false accusations against the other parent, call it whatever you want.

The child in my state, who was very young, was not starved, was put on a vegetarian diet, and died. Yes some children are starved. This one was not. Both parents were charged.

How old are the children?

Mom2mom -- the OP said the kids were with them all summer. I think that is long enough to do serious damage. It may not have been clear to the mom how long they were on this diet, or feading for most of the summer. If my DD was put on a veg diet, I would be concerned with her getting enough protein, vitamins, and minerals. Not that this cant be done, but I think it requires planning and commitment on the parents part (and childs if above toddler age). If the children complained they were getting hungry that could have been a tip off that there were problems with the diet.

Sylvia, maybe people live with from "cradel to grave" on vege diets, but the NY Times article on this, which I assumed to be pretty unbiased, indicated that a vege diets for the very young is against medical advice. My understanding is also that there are different levels of vege diets, and some are more problematic than others. It did not indicate what age to change. The vegetarians I know did not put their children on veg diets until they were in their teens.

I know the SMs on this board have the mantra, dont bend over backwards to humor the children, but I also think by trying to implement this (presumably the first time) while you were living there, it may have set back your relationship with them (if you were left alone, or were in charge of any meals).

As to blaming this on jealousy with fiance, this is a very specific complaint. In any event, this is for fiance to discuss with his X.

Only a small percentage of divorce filings involve accusations of parental abuse, and in the vast majority of those, the abuse has been substantiated. What is scary is that there have been some cases where the abuser ended up with custody, and some women have been scared to report that their partner was abusing the children for fear that he would use accusations of PAS to gain custody.

The original poster didn't state whether the diet was vegetarian or vegan, which makes a big difference. I am the last person to recommend vegetarianism (I am not sure my life would be worth living if it didn't include hamburger and an occasional steak), but you can get enough nutrients if you eat enough eggs and dairy products. On the other hand, I think trying to convert children to vegetarianism who are not enthusiastic participants is a really bad idea and doomed to failure. Even if it is their idea, it is often not a good choice, unless they will eat a variety of foods. A friend of my daughter had her mom tearing her hair out, because the girl decided to become a vegetarian, yet didn't like eggs, vegetables, or most dairy. It is virtually impossible to make a nutricious diet out of starch and an occasional apple.

There was an interesting op/ed article on this topic in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html?ex=1189396800&en=cc531a1150148cba&ei=5070

I was a long-term vegetarian and knew many people who raised their children vegetarian. As with ANY eating program there are right ways and wrong ways to go about it, but vegetarianism in and of itself is not harmful. One does not have to consume animals to be healthy. The protein argument is a very old and boring one but suffice it to say that if you are consuming a moderate amount of dairy, egg, nut, or bean products, it is most likely that you're doing just fine in the protein department. Humans actually need very little in order to be healthy. Protein deficiency is a rare condition.

I think that the real problem would be in getting children wih an already established eating program to embrace an entirely new one with the discipline and enthusiasm that being a vegetarian requires. It does require a TON of effort to get on and stay on an eating program of any sort. (Ask anyone who has ever followed a weight loss regimen!)

For small children, I do not think that veganism would be appropriate, although for adults who are able to monitor their intake of protein and calcium, it is an excellent choice. Been there done that too and it was the best I have felt in my whole life.

Vivian,

I dont think this post is only about the pluses/minuses of any type of Vegetarian diet. If my child complained about being hungry, I would be angry. If my complaints were not addressed by a school or camp, I would pack her lunch, etc. Unfortunately when child is at Dads for the summer, those options dont exist. I dont know if this is a disagreement that escalated, et. It appears that very little planning or disussion with the children took place. I do think this was Dad's job. I think if OP plans on being a teacher she might take this as a learning experience. If she doesnt care about children being hungry, I dont want her as my child's teacher. All I see is OP wanting to retaliate.

Gardner has been widely discredited and maligned -- but that doesn't mean all of his ideas were wrong. Whether PAS is a valid 'syndrome' or 'diagnosis' or whatever is an interesting debate -- But those of us who have been through it know that there is some substance to the idea of parental alienation.

Is there truly anyone here who honestly believes that no angry, manipulative, jealous parent has ever tried to brainwash a child against the other parent? Sadly, that seems to happen pretty frequently...

Well, apparently it was discontinued for the children, so I don't understand the big deal about it in the first place. It didn't work and an adjustment was made. I don't think that she or the children's father didn't care. They obviously did something to try to rectify the situation--although I don't know how effective overall it was. I wasn't there and couldn't say if the kids were hungry or not. I was just kinda pursuing the whole tangent that the thread took. There's a ton of misinformation out there regarding vegetarianism.

I do think that based upon the incidents of accusation and threatened legal action that the OP ought to reconsider marrying into such a situation if she intends to pursue a career in teaching. School boards would certainly not look kindly upon hiring anyone who even had the scent of child neglect or abuse about them. False accusations or not. This would certainly send me running for the hills because these things do NOT bode well for the future.

It didnt seem to me that Dad thought this out thoroughly. OP says he recently started a vegetarian diet. I think he should have been on for a while, become more accustomed to alternatives, etc, researched or discussed with support groups alternaive meals and recipes for children. I think the child's mom being angry is natural, and to blame mom's anger on jealousy or PAS is missing the mark. And Sylvia, you're right, when one hears something second hand, there may be pieces missing (like how many times did Mom complain without getting a change). Mom may be linking GF moving in and the change of diet. If I were OP, I would have Dad discuss diet changes with the mom before the next visit.

OP didn't say they let the children go hungry;
she said the children got hungry faster, which is to be expected if they went from a high-fat diet to a low-fat vegetarian diet.

As far as a vegan diet for the very young, OP didn't say it was a vegan diet, & she didn't mention children's ages (or if she did, I missed it).

Ideally, vegan/vegetarian/meat-eating diets shouldn't even be an issue for the very young, because children should get mother's milk for their first couple of years...
but I don't think many of them do, which doesn't mean that their caregivers are neglecting them or letting them go hungry.

"The child in my state, who was very young, was not starved, was put on a vegetarian diet, and died. Yes some children are starved. This one was not. Both parents were charged."

What on earth does that mean?

This is your second reference, without a link to any documentation, to a young child dying while on a vegetarian diet. No indication of cause of death, no mention of what the parents were charged with, just an unsubstantiated statement that sounds like an indictment of vegetarianism.

"I do think that based upon the incidents of accusation and threatened legal action that the OP ought to reconsider marrying into such a situation if she intends to pursue a career in teaching"

or even if she doesn't.

Who wants to be involved in something where she can be demonized & maybe even held criminally accountable, just because she's caught in the crossfire between 2 ruthless, vindictive ex-spouses?

& yes, I include him in that description;
based on the original post, it sounds very much like he may have used this ex's threats to subdue & scare his fiancee.

Actually, kkny *did* state the cause of death in her first post:
malnutrition.

Vegetarianism does not cause malnutrition.

I don't think any functioning adult could accidentally cause malnutrition or fail to notice the signs:
death from malnutrition would have been caused by parental abuse, not vegetarianism.

& the difference between malnutrition & starvation is?...

Merriam Webster's (www.m-w.com) definition of malnutrition is:

"faulty nutrition due to inadequate or unbalanced intake of nutrients or their impaired assimilation or utilization"

and starve is "to perish from lack of food."

One has to do with lack of nutrients, and the other lack of calories. Often, of course, if you are starving you are also malnourished. You can however eat plenty of calories and still be malnourished. If all you ate were chocolate cake, you might be taking in plenty of calories, but you would become malnourished.

Sylvia --

"OP didn't say they let the children go hungry;
she said the children got hungry faster" -- I think you are splitting hairs at this point.

" because children should get mother's milk for their first couple of years... " -- and in a divorce situation -- how is that supposed to happen??

"Who wants to be involved in something where she can be demonized & maybe even held criminally accountable" -- OK

"2 ruthless, vindictive ex-spouses" -- actually to me it sounds like a Dad who doesnt plan and a mom who doesnt want her children hungry

OP - are you sure fiance's ex is really pursuing any sort of charges or is ex just talking? You could be worrying for nothing - how long have you been with fiance?

I also agree their father should have discussed changing their diet with their BM first - putting myself in BM's place, I can completely understand why she would be upset. How long are we talking here? I don't necessarily think this is an arguement about vegetarean diet good/bad so much as lack of communication. Were they eating vegetarian for few days, hated it, went back to their normal way of eating and this has all been blown way out of proportion? (Have to say I can't blame them, I would hate it too)

As far as your question she I be worried?,speaking as employee of police department for almost 10 years now, even when police reports are filed that we know are false, there is still an investigation, and even when accusations are proven to be unfounded - that investigation can prove to be publicly embarrassing. I see you are starting a career as a teacher - makes me think of one particular case we had where SM (who was a teacher) & BD were both accused of abuse. Detectives were sent to the school where SM taught to interview her. Allegations proved to be false but this woman was still humiliated in front of her superiors & colleagues. If your fiance's ex is really the kind of woman that would fabricate abuse or neglect allegations,(and yes these woman exist) I would think very long & hard before I married him. You could be in for a very miserable experience. Just something to think about.

Of course there are also other scenarios to consider as well, maybe BM is upset because she thinks you were trying to feed her children lettuce all summer long - who knows what the kids told her? For that matter who knows what your fiance told her? I would investigate further if I were you.

doubts,

You said in a post a couple of months ago that the children's mother is "all about domestic violence." Since I am of a different generation, could you translate? Does that mean you are worried that she would physically attack you? Or does that mean she has accused your boyfriend of domestic violence?

In any case, you have indicated in earlier posts that she is not happy about your living with their father. Vegetarianism is a topic about which people tend to feel strongly, one way or the other, as is nutrition. As other posters have stated, their father should have discussed any major dietary changes with their mother first. It would seem to me to be imprudent to risk unnecessarily incurring the wrath of someone who you could have predicted would become very upset.

"Is there truly anyone here who honestly believes that no angry, manipulative, jealous parent has ever tried to brainwash a child against the other parent?"

Well said, sweeby. Call is PAS, or call it something else, either way the courts are aware that this "brainwashing" exists and are starting to look for it. It was one of the first things that came up when DH was in court to sort out his access.

Also, if I were a BM, I would be careful about accusing a teacher of abuse. If the accusations prove to be false, the teacher will have a legitimate case for slander, and may end up collecting for damages.

As for the vegetarian stuff.....From what I understand, the OP had the kids try vegetarian, the kids didn't like it, and so they switched the kids back to a non-vegetarian diet. Why is this a big deal?

"Is there truly anyone here who honestly believes that no angry, manipulative, jealous parent has ever tried to brainwash a child against the other parent?"

And does that mean that no child ever had a legitimate complaint? And that OP seemed so cavalier about the children seems disconcerting to me.

" the OP had the kids try vegetarian" ??

I assume you meant the Dad, although this may have been part of the problem, that mom assumed, or had reason to assume that the GF had something to do with it. The OP does not have the right to change the diets.

I would not be afraid to complain when my child went hungry. And if there are two sides to every story, then what we have is OPs -- which indicates to me that there may legitimate issues. Kinda makes you wonder what the other side is. Were there numerous phone calls on this? From children to mom?

We are probably talking about accusations of neglect, not abuse. It is important to know whether the kids were not allowed to eat meat for a couple of days or weeks. Were they anemic when they returned home? Had they lost weight?