The only people I know of who are unhappy with vinyl windows are the ones who have cheap ones. Many times they are not the ones who put them in, it was the previous owner who had a "I'm only going to be here for a few years" approach.

The problems with cheapo's are the vinyl warps, particularly bowing of the sashes at the meeting rail, vinyl cracking or splitting and yellowing, seal failures, argon gas leakage, poor to nil factory service, and when they finally are able to get warranty service, it usually involves shipping the window back to the factory at the homeowners expense and reinstallation at the homeowners expense.

Now ask people who purchased good quality vinyl windows about the problems they have and you will find very few complaints. Sure, you can always find someone who is the anomily, but over all the satisfaction levels are very good.

You "will" get what you pay for.

The question I would have is this. Are good quality vinyl replacement windows (such as Schuco) on par with good wood windows such as Marvin when it comes to durability? Not sure if there is a real answer as most of the technology being used is newer, but most of us would like to do this once.

It's not fair to compare a wood window with a vinyl window.

It's more or less your budget or preference that will help you decide.

Quality wood windows, like quality vinyl windows provide extremely good energy efficiency.

Vinyl is white or tan or simulated woodgrain. Wood is what you want it to be.

Our wood comes with SuperSpacer and so does our vinyl.
Triple pane is available in both. TDL is available in both.

Options are abundant in both lines. Quality is not always easy to find. Too often the salesperson is driven by sales, not by customer satisfaction.

Installation. Without quality installers, a good window will be a lackluster performer. Team up a quality window and a quality installer and you have a winning, high performance window.

dave, I have seen wood windows that are 40 years old and still windowing. I have seen some wood and some vinyl less than 10 years old and shot.

As sky says, QUALITY is the choice. The only choice to make if you wish to do it once. Of course, you're responsible for maintenance.

Michael

Per Skydawggy and Michael - I couldn't have said it any better - longer probably - but not better....

Sure, buy quality. Well, duh! But the question to the non professional is how do you identify quality and how do you compare two very diffrent products. Based on what I have read here, I took a look at Schuco windows. Sounds like they are the gold standard in vinyl windows. Triple pane, krypton etc etc. Looked like a very nice product. House is white so vinyl will fit in.

So you say choose your installer well. Well, there is only one installer in this state and they are 150-200 miles from here. The qoute was high as expected but I understand that quality products will cost more. I just do not know what kind of longevity a vinyl product will have. If it's the best, as Schuco is supposed to be, will it last as long as say a Marvin wood window (clad on the exterior)? I don't know. Not a sole in my neighborhood has them. I'm the guinea pig as most of the windows in this sub are going bad.

I've seen enough bad vinyl to know I don't want that, but I really have not heard much about the longevity of good vinyl. Does that make sense?? I just don't want to be kicking myself down the road for paying the same amount on a vinyl window when the wood would have been a sounder, more durable investment. My current wood windows are garbage, but I know they do not represent quality wood windows.

Novidave,

If you will read some of the other threads here and the other sites you ask the same questions on, you will see that I and others say quite often that you do not have to spend $1000. to get a good window. There are many very good windows that can be purchased in the $400 to $600 range. Don't ask me to reveal the brand, but the windows I have in my own house can be purchased and installed for around $550. each with all options. It's great if you can afford the Lexus, but does that make the quality of a Honda unacceptable?

The situation you have in your neighborhood is the reason we try to warn people about cheap windows. Some listen, but some are guided by nothing but an obssession for the lowest price and will convince themselves the cheapo's will be "good enough".

Ultimately, it's your decision whether you go with wood or vinyl. If you think Schuco is the only vinyl window you can be happy with, then I can only surmise you haven't done much research or looked at too many windows. Why not pick up the yellow pages or do some web research to find some of the reputable dealers in your area?

"The situation you have in your neighborhood is the reason we try to warn people about cheap windows. Some listen, but some are guided by nothing but an obssession for the lowest price and will convince themselves the cheapo's will be "good enough"."

All of these homes were built from 10 to 14 years ago and all used a window manufactured by a company called Weathervane. The company promptly and deservedly went out of business about 9 years ago. The homes are newer and most do not have standard size windows. Therefore, many are now interviewing companies that provide custom replacements. Price is not the main critieria for most of us. We are simply looking for a decent product. I will continue to shop. I appreciate any help or suggestions anyone cares to offer up. I'm not asking about the best deal. I'm simply trying to find the best product for my needs.

***then I can only surmise you haven't done much research or looked at too many windows. Why not pick up the yellow pages or do some web research to find some of the reputable dealers in your area?****

Huh? I would hazard to guess that most of the people who seek out a site such as this do so to avoid just this. I am merely trying to cut down the number of brands offered to a more manageable number that may best fit my needs. My yellow pages has 5 pages of window replacement companies representing about 2 dozen or more diffrent brands. That is not very effecient. And I guarantee you every salesperson has the best brand for me.

Not all window companies use the tactics the Schuco dealer did. Here is some advice to neutralize the salespersons tactics.

1. Call a few dealers and ask what brands they carry. Don't schedule an appointment at this time. Tell them you are talking to a few companies and want to research their window first to decide if you are interested in it. Be very pleasant and don't project your frustrations on them.

2. Ask if you can get some references before they come out and actually call the references and find out their experience with the companies. Also, check with the BBB and any others sources that are available to you.

3. Once you have decided on the dealers you are interested in talking to, call them to arrange a presentation. Again, be pleasant and don't start telling them you don't want any "high pressure" sales tactics etc.

4. When the salesperson arrives, let him/her know you are very interested in replacing your windows and tell them you are going to be making a decision in a week or so after you have talked to a few other dealers and seen their products. Again, I can't stress how important it is to be unemotional. Don't start making inflammatory statements or expressing frustration. I would also let the salesperson know that you have had a few bad experiences and would appreciate if they could just give you their best price without haggling because you aren't interested in price drops, calls to the managers etc.

5. When the salesperson has answered all your questions and given you their price, ask it that is the best price they can give you. If it is, thank them for their time and patience and repeat that you have a few other companies already scheduled to come out and show you their product and you will get back to them next week. If they indicate they need to call their manager to get the best price, allow them to do that.

6. After they call the manager, they will probably come back and tell you the price is only good for today. Don't get upset. The main thing to keep focused on is getting the best window for the best price. If you piss off the salesperson they may just walk out without giving it to you.

7. Whatever the price they give you is, thank them again for their time and tell them you will be in touch after getting the other estimates. Pay no attention if they tell you that price won't be available in the future, it will.

Get your other estimates, then come on here and the other sites you post on and we will help you decide which is the best way to go based on the price and window.

Something else to keep in mind. It is unfortunate that the sales process sometimes works this way. I could give you the thinking from the other side too and you might understand it all a little better, but I digress. Don't automatically dimiss a company from consideration just because you don't like the salesperson, if you do like the product and the price. The sales tactics, you will get over quickly. The quality and price you will live with for a very long time, so keep that as your main goal.

Hope this helps.

My Schuco experience...I replaced 28 windows at an average of $560 per hole. The windows are Corona 4000 double paned with either argon or krypton fill depending on the side of the house. They were replacing wood framed windows of which 27 were jammed shut and almost all the sills were in bad shape. I have had NO trouble with them after 3 years (admittedly a short time overall). Many of these windows are 2.5 - 3 stories in the air with a sharply sloped lot underneath...no way did I want to have wood to worry about, I would have to inspect it with binoculars. I have dealt direct with Schuco USA because the local dealer closed shop, they were super-nice. Sorry you got the hard sell.

The pros posting here try to be objective and fair. As a homeowner, I can be a bit more bias ;-).

We have two 11-yr old Milgard Vinyl. One casement in direct sun cracked within 5 years. Fortunately, the crank handle continues to work and the crack is on the inside so there is no leakage. One large slider still works although it has recently stopped sliding all the way open. They are white so there is no obvious fading. We are NOT unhappy with them because they serve their purpose as windows and for $500, installation included, they have lasted 11 years. They can easily last another 5 years. There is nothing to be "unhappy" about.

We are also not especially happy with them simply because there is nothing special to these white vinyl window. No visual appeal, no special qualities to wow over. They are just windows. They add nothing to our house. In many ways, they actually do not match too well with our architecture.

We cannot paint ours in dark colors because vinyl is susceptible to high heat. We will soon have to replace these because we are in an area susceptible to wild fires. Vinyl will melt at about 350-F and radiant heat from a wild fire can easily reach 1800-F.

In addition to considering high quality vinyl windows, it will be worthwhile to look into high quality fiberglass as well. Fiberglass has been used for boat hull and aircraft body for a long time. In terms of strength, durability and thermal efficiency, fiberglass beats vinyl chemically speaking and is definitely worth a good long look. Of course, cheap fiberglass windows will have cheap performance.

As for a later question about Marvin wood vs. vinyl. Assuming Marvin Ultimate AL clad wood window is properly installed, I will dare say it will perform better longer than a vinyl window in harsh conditions. I base this claim on our experience with our Marvin Ultimate windows. As mentioned above, a Milgard vinyl casement cracked within 5 years in direct hot CA sun. Our Marvin casement has been up for 4+ years now, exposed to wind, rain, some snow, and southwest hot baking sun. So far, they operate as new. No crack, no discernible fading of the forest green color, no creaks, no leak, no nothing.

Can vinyl last 20 years? Probably, given our experience with our Milgard. Can it last flawlessly for 20 years in an exposed location? Probably not, based on our experience with our Milgard. I am sure someone out there can always offer a counter example stating that there is one still functioning like new after 25 or 30 years. I will ask though if that is generally true? or one of a few special case.

Can Marvin last 20 years? Probably. Can it last flawlessly for 20 years in an exposed location? Probably, after living with ours for 4+ years.

Good luck with your research.

Just had another salesperson from a local company come over to show us the Marvin window and one from Hurd. Both wood and both very nice. Aluminum clad looked great. I suppose this is what I was expecting when I started the search. This shop also carries several brands of vinyl but the salesperson seemed to think that our casement windows were much to large for vinyl. The living room window is made up of four casements each 27"x73". At first Schuco suggested two sliders but called back to say they could do one window with 4 casements. Any pro opinions out there?

I have no idea what the Marvin/Hurd products will cost, but I did like the construction. One diffrence is both had double pane glass. He said the marvin is available in triple, but I'm not so sure about the Hurd. I'm in Southeast Michigan, so triple may be overkill but I was impressed with it in the Schuco.

Appreciate everybodys help.

Calbay,

I don't think you can conclude that vinyl windows made today are comparable to those made 20 years ago. One of the main reason vinyl deteriorates is UV radiation and heat. Most of the better manuf. are using UV block and impact modifiers in their vinyl formulas which makes the vinyl used today a higher quality than 20 years ago (what isn't?). Most vinyl window manuf. now offer lifetime warranties against the vinyl splitting, cracking etc. You might want to check your Milgard warranty to see if you are covered.

If fact, as an aside, many vinyl siding manuf. are using Luran by BASF which not only blocks UV but also reflects heat. Expect to see Luran in windows soon.

Dave,

You must live near my son who lives in nearby Plymouth.

The Marvin may seem expensive or it may seem a great value. It all depends on your perspective. I sell a lot of aluminum clad wood windows and yes, they are double the price of a quality vinyl window. Be prepared for that number.

I never come up against the Hurd window so I don't know how it rates here in northern Ohio.

Since you live up there in Big Blue country, have you looked at Sunrise in Temperance? Great Lakes in Toledo? Kaufman in Detroit?

I've talked with the owner of Kaufman and they make a nice window with SuperSpacer.

Michael

Here is a link that might be useful: A nice window

We like to think of it as Spartan Country!! I'm right up the road from your son. I will take a look at the names you mentioned. Thanks for the suggestions. I have heard of Sunrise, but not the others. As far as price goes, I don't think anything will surprise me any more. I know the Hurd product will cost less than the Marvin, but the quality looked fairly close. I won't see the estimate for a few days so I won't get my hopes up. I plan to stay in the house for 15+ years so I don't mind paying for good windows. I just don't want to have to sell any of the children if I can help it.

What a Great Resource. Your responses have been very helpful. My situation is I have to replace 19 windows and I want to do it right the first time so I won't have to waste time and more money the second time around. I did have 2 visits from the Penguin Co, MA regarding what I think to be a superior window, very similiar to Schuco. I want/need them to last a long time. They come with lifetime warranties x2 home owners on everything. The cost is $23,000 which I am told includes covering the bottom outside portion of the window with pvc. It is a great deal of money and I did go through some experiences with the salespeople indicated in a previous post. I do want to get the best window that will last a long time. It just seems that amount of money for that # of windows is alot. They also have their own certified team of window installers. What a decision. Is it the geographical area I live in the boosts the price of the window? Thanks for your help.

Mike,

Thanks fot the suggestions. Do you know of any other brands of alum clad wood windows besides the Marvin, Hurd and I beleive Anderson's. Based on a what I have read, I may avoid the Pella product. My other question to all the pros out here is this. Are my windows to large for vinyl? One guy (who sells both but only brought out wood) says they are simply to heavy. My living room is the largest. It consists of 4 casement windows side by side that are approx 27" x 73". There are then four seperate eyebrows above them. The Schuco guy said they were to large for casements and recommended a two unit slider option, which did not thrill my wife. He then called back and said he could put in a single unit with four casement openings. Hmm I have no idea? So what do you pros think?

Dave,

Our offering is an extruded aluminum clad wood window with SuperSpacer and Guardian glass. It is a Trimline window from Valley Forge, PA.

We believe in SuperSpacer in wood windows because it virtually eliminates wood's number one enemy, moisture, mold and mildew.

Metal spacers are what we sell against so I don't endorse them in any product.

Michael

novidave-

Consider looking at Eagle brand alum clad windows. We put 44 alum clad, low e, Argon filled, SDL, primed interior units plus 1 set of doug fir french doors in our almost-finished house and are very pleased with the quality, features (like tilt out washing) and window and hardware finish choices. Total cost for the 44 windows (36 double hung, 2 casement, 6 awning, 2 fixed IIRC) was $21k+-, delivered to our building site.

Here's a pic:

sandyponer

sandy,

please give us an update a year from today. :)

Michael

Thanks SkyDawggy for the vinyl additive info. I understand new technology is coming up with various blends to strengthen vinyl. Just did a research on a fabric that is made of vinyl backing but has special Flouride-based protective layer on top that can make it last 12 to 20 years. They thermally bond the protective layer to the vinyl fabric. This is similar to many fabric covered structures in use all over the country. Our company is looking at using it to cover an outdoor sports area for employees.

My comment was just that for a homeowner, we make our choices based on various factors. While vinyl may last 20 years, and I believe it can, even with our Milgard windows, I may decide to pay a bit more for something that has a better chance (no guarantee) to last 30, 40 or 50 years. It depends on our needs and how willing we are to part with our hard-earned cash.

There is another post now declaring Marvin windows and doors failed after 13 years. So we consumers are all just taking chances and hoping to come out even.