http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michdads/

http://www.dadsofmichigan.org/glensacks.html

*******
(only if there is an adoption pending! Unless Mr. Army Guy is going to adopt the child, your friend CAN NOT sign over anything. That's a good quesiton to ask Mr. Army Guy: Does this mean you are adopting the child and assuming FULL LEGAL responsibility for her, including child support if her mom doivorces you?)

http://www.childcustody.net/45.html
In Michigan, and many other states, the prior father's rights can be terminated:
A. By consent; if the prior father appears in court, takes the oath, is advised by the judge that this is a serious, non-reversible step, and the man consents to the adoption, and signs the form. This is the "signing off" that confuses many people.
B. Without the prior father's consent; if the moving party can show BOTH OF THESE THINGS:

1. The prior father has not substantially supported the child for the prior two years, and
2. The prior father has, for the most part, not visited the child for the prior two years.

If those two things can be proved to the court, then the parental rights of the prior father will be terminated, and the adoption may go forward. Please note that the prior father is entitled to notice of the hearing, and that he might appear and oppose that termination. If he can show that numbers 1 & 2 above are NOT correct, then his rights won't be terminated, and there will be no adoption.

Get a lawyer, fast. I am in MI and have a great lawyer, he is the best. You will have to get a lawyer and agree to make payment arrangements but it is WELL WORTH it. And don't just get any attorney, interview. My husband and I went back to court and obtained custody of his children after they had been with their Bio mom for more than ten years, we went to several other attorneys and they all said he had no chance but kept looking until we found the right representation. Take a loan, bust your 401, pay for the rest of your life, your kid is worth it. But without legal representation your odds decrease significantly. Call her bluff about the army providing her an attorney, I don't know if that is or is not true but you need to get your self a lawyer fast. Think of it as putting payment on the rest of your childs life. WORTH IT. Oh, lazygarden is completely correct about being able to sign off your rights. Don't do it.

They are right...you need a good attorney. I will mention that if you call the Michigan Bar Association, there are good attorneys that sometimes volunteer their time in cases where people can not afford legal help. Sort of like doctors that will do surgery for someone who desperately needs it but cannot afford it.

Boy, if this post does not make me wish for conservative values, and people waiting until they really know someone before they are intimate. What a heartbreaking senerio for a baby to grow up in, and for a father wanting to fix this somehow, and be a father to his daughter. if only her mother felt as strongly about doing the right thing by her little girl who is counting on her.

bnicebkind, I second your wishes tenfold. People do what feels good out of choice ("Its my life, etc.")and often don't think about who it may affect:( Unfortunately he was not patient or picky with his choice of a woman, and with the exception of the child herself, it has brought nothing but misery to him. But, that was misjudgement on his part, and he, and unfortunately his child, suffer in result. But he knows that, and that is why he wants to make it better.

It makes me angry that some people take parenthood so lightly. I swear, some people should not be allowed to reproduce. But unfortunately there are laws against that, lol.

When I say my friend cannot afford a lawyer.....I mean he REALLY cannot afford a lawyer. Probono would be the only way he could get one. With making the child support payments, he has just barely enough for (cheap)rent, food and gas. He luckily has a cheap source of childcare lined up (if he gets custody somehow) and would be willing to take an extra job to get ahead (save for school, health insurance, etc.).

The mother's boyfriend would probably adopt the little girl, yes. I do think though, that he recognizes the unfairness in taking her from my friend, since he does everything he can do to be a good father. The bf is a kind man, but unfortunately she is the dominant personality in the relationship and what she says goes. But I KNOW she would do anything to keep the monthly checks coming, that's for sure, so whatever situation that would happen in is what she will try and get. To quote a conversation they had recently (in front of me):

Her: "You may as well just sign her over, because she's going to end up with us anyway...I'm her mother".
Him:"Why would you need to say something like that? I'M just as much her parent as you are...but you would take drag her all over the country anyway and keep her away from her dad".
Her: "Yes. I'm her mom, and I know what's best for her. She should grow up in a two parent home, with a mom and dad, and me and (boyfriend) are getting married so that's what's best for her".
Him: "Oh well we both should have thought about that BEFOREHAND then, but we didn't so this is how it is. So you're telling me you are 'replacing' me as her father, so (sarcastically) does that mean you don't want me seeing her, talking to her, supporting her....."
Her: "Basically. But, you'll always have to support her financially, you can't just abandon her like that, she's your daughter, you helped make her..."

I just wanted to scream EXACTLY, but unfortunately I know my place. But that's the gist of her attitude. I hate to see him in such a predicament,knowing how much he really wants his daughter to grow up in a safe, stable home. If the mother were behaving differently, he would consider letting them take her, and possibly moving to the same area, etc. But I already see signs in the toddler's behavior that are somewhat alarming....like she is tired and cranky much of the time, looking like she hasn't slept (and come to find out Momma had her out all hours of the night).

Thank you all, I will check out some of those options.

It sounds like this young man still has several friends that run in the same circles as the little girl's mother. Any chance they could take some photos of the mother and/or little girl at some of these wild parties? Anything time and date stamped, especially with drugs or obviously-intoxicated people in the photo would be a real help. And statements about how the mother behaved at those parties? Whether she did any drugs or drank too much. And how the little girl got home -- did the mother drive drunk? And for goodness sakes, he should NOT tip his hand that this is what he's doing. Also, your friend should keep a log with dates and times. It may never get used, but it could, in competent legal hands, make a big difference.

Many states have rules that prevent one parent from removing the child from the state if the other parent is involved and objects, which seems to be the case here.

There's probably some decent legal information available on the Internet, if your friend is computer literate. But that can't replace a lawyer -- even Legal Aid, law school, or going into debt. He NEEDS a lawyer, whether he can afford one or not, or he will lose his daughter.

I'm in SC, so I am not sure about MI, but it seems to be the general consensus to lean towards mom regardless of her character or lack of morals. If you weren't in MI, I would swear this is my SD's bio mom. It is a carbon copy of our situation. Happy ending, though, this may be something positive: my husband won custody. Yes, it took a lengthy court battle, but custody issues are not taken lightly by the court and they can be helpful in finding a lawyer to suit your friend's needs. He must do whatever it takes to get a lawyer and get on her immediately!

manda, Yes it is very skewed toward women in michigan as well. I am glad your situation worked out though.

sweeby, The pics, etc. are a great idea. I am sure he could get some somewhere....possibly even I could. I want to do everything I can to help him.

The thing that bothers me is that he needs a lawyer I know, I just cant see how he can get one:(

He could do what my husband did. My husband acted on his own behalf (keep in mind that it took a lot of time and effort to get educated on the proper way to do things) and then only got a lawyer involved at the very end, when court was necessary. All the stuff beforehand, the negotiating, the back and forth of demands and such, was dealt with by him and me. We typed a lot of letters, got a lot of affidavits together, and basically did the groundwork. When it came time to go to court, he hired a lawyer who represented him. We won. And the main reason was that she had hired a high priced lawyer at the very start and spent all her money. She had no money left and we had just started with one so our resources hadn't been tapped yet. She wound up having to give up the legal fight.

See what your friend can do on his own. Everyone knows how to write a letter. There's tons of information out there. You just have to look for it and then apply it to your situation. Best of luck to your friend.

I realize this message is a little late. Your friend can indeed begin the legal process, ie: letters, affidavits. Call your nearest law school and find out if there are 3-4 year students who do pro bono work directly under their superiors. Texas has a program that lets the 3-4 year law students do pro bono work under the direct supervision of licensed attorneys. Totally legal and you never know, your friend might get a suberb student who will crusade for him. Lots of luck.

Hi I have an URGENT question.
Before my hubby & I were married he had a qick fling resulting in a pregnant girl. Lets just skip the drama and go to the facts. We are happlity married. My husband is upstanding, Sherif's deputy for 20 years. When the baby was born we immediatly obtained an attorney in order to file for shared physical custody in order to get 50/50 parenting time. The mother is NOT willing to allow the child out of her sight at all. We have gone to court and got a temporary order pending the affidavte of parenting going thru the system. That has been now done. We are now waiting on MI FOC to do a investigation on the mother and on us. We welcome this. Mom lives with her other child, a 7 year old son and the baby, now 5 months old, in a 1 bedroom apt. The only bedroom is used by the son. The mother uses the livingroom as her bedroom and has the baby crib in it as well, along with the tv entertainment system. She is on state aid and is a full time student. We live 1 hour away in a new 4 bedroom home, one of which has been turned into a full nursery. The mother has moved 7 times in 7 years. My husband prior to marrying me, moved once in 16 years and is very stable. She is VERY selfish and resentful that he didnt marry her. He told her immediatly that it was a mistake ( night after the bar) and there was no relationship there at all, no dating. so she resents us as a married couple, plus we are in our 40's, shes 28. My husband is the one who sued her, no one, not foc, no office contacted him and no case was started before his filing. What are the chances we can get his daughter 50/50? We believe the mother just wants support and although she wont see it now being on state aid, she will once she ends school and begins working. Can you tell me the most common scenerio? Right now we drive 3 days a week for 2 hours visit time until FOC does there mess and gives recommendation.

How far away do you live from her? I think it's easier to get 50/50 when the child is young because they are not in school. I know it may be harder if she is breastfed, at least until she weans. Besides demonstrating that he is stable, he also should demonstrate that he capable of caring for a baby and being a nurturing parent.

If the baby is 5 months old, I'm assuming that you are newlyweds. Why would you want the product of your husbands infidelity to be there 50% of the time? Were you okay with his 'quick fling'? You may think he's upstanding because of his career choice, but impregnating a welfare mother while engaged or while with you, is NOT upstanding. (My ex is a Sheriff's Deputy for 22 years and while we were together, he did lots of dishonest things. I also saw how other Deputies broke the law, including one that drank a six pack on the way home every night)

I can't say I blame her for being resentful and fearful that he is going to take her child. So far, he has only used her for a one night stand and now wants to swoop in and take the baby to his nice big house with a nursery that she can't compete with. Both of them were old enough to know better and prevent the pregnancy, but your husband will probably be stuck paying her child support even if he gets 50/50. That is one very EXPENSIVE fling. You are much more forgiving than I'd be.

well, this little fling occured before we were married and right before we were engaged so I can honestly say, hey we were both single at the time and yup, he made a bad choice but thats just what happened. As far as the little one being there, its not her fault, shes a sweet baby and we both are great parents so no different I guess than if we both had children from prior relationships or divorce. Yes, he shows the curt that he is very stable and we are able to provide a very loving home for her. I do have to say and NOT in his defense either that he didnt "use" her..it was a mutual thing and it took two. We're not concerned about the support issue, my husband Just wants to see his daughter and its like shes holding the baby hostage because of her resentment.

I'm sure she feels used as he had a girlfriend and never intended to make her his girlfriend, unless now you are going to say you were broken up at the time. He may be able to offer a bigger house with stability, but the mother may also be providing a loving home for her children. Nothing you've said indicates that she isn't a loving mother, just down financially. Perhaps she will be able to get a bigger place and stay there (creating stability) if she gets enough child support.

BTW, has he been paying her child support for the last five months? Even if there isn't a court order, he should be paying her something. Not just buying the baby things... she should be getting a regular amount of money to help pay her rent, utilities & food as a portion of those expenses is attributable to the baby.

To modify custody there has to be a substantial change in circumstances, doesn't sound like there is one in this case.

Also, not to be picky -- but I'm not sure how you would know that this little fling was a mutual thing. She may not have thought of it as a fling and is now raising the product of it. Not an easy task if so.

giggle, I get the impression that even though she's asking about 50/50 (which I support very much for kids), she's being very critical of the mother and I can see a motive here for full custody, just based on the financial aspect of it.

"She is VERY selfish and resentful that he didnt marry her. He told her immediatly that it was a mistake ( night after the bar) and there was no relationship there at all, no dating. so she resents us as a married couple, plus we are in our 40's, shes 28."

Why would she have an expectation that he would marry her if it was a mutual fling? HE told her it was a mistake... that doesn't sound 'mutual' at all. and if he told you it was a one night at the bar, he got drunk, blah blah blah, and you want to believe that... ok. But I wouldn't. If I went to a bar and got drunk and had a one night stand, I wouldn't be expecting marriage or even a relationship out of it. I'm pretty sure it would have to be more to the story.

I agree Imamommy, I just wanted to word it carefully. 50/50 is great IMO when both parents want what is best for the child, but if you have one who is doing it for financial reasons it is not.

I work in Social Services, not directly for child support but I do know the procedures and am very informed and involved in court cases.

I have noticed in cases like this, when there isn't a direct problem with CP or NCP (goes both ways) that some people will find anything to pick up and run with. This is not a bad case of parenting, it is someone down on their luck which it sounds like OP's husband contributed to.

I also find it strange that BM did not file for CS first, makes you wonder if she wants nothing to do with OP's DH. But certainly does show that she is not just mad at him for not marrying her.

Just about flings...
A good friend of mine has a son from a two night stand... They had their fling, and didn't talk again until she found out she was pregnant, and said "Well if you don't want to marry me, you can't be in the baby's life".
He now has joint custody of their 8 month old and they get along pretty well (for the most part).
So some crazy women do still have messed up ideas about flings and pregnancy and marriage...

so the baby's father & his wife feel entitled to take this child away from her mother because the mother, a fulltime student trying to better her position & her daughter's position, is young & poor?

If the baby has financial needs that her mother can't meet, her father needs to pay higher child support.

Nobody is entitled to take a baby away from her mother because they have more money.

"he had a qick fling resulting in a pregnant girl."

so....

it wasn't his fault?
he didn't get someone pregnant, the fling did?
(& is "qick" a Freudian slip???)

OP, you need a dose of humanity & humility, you need to realize that this young woman's child is *her* child, not your child that she merely incubated, you need to realize that your "upstanding" law-enforcement husband got a young woman pregnant & now he wants her to vanish, not a nice attitude at all, & you need to realize & admit that he is responsible & accountable for supporting this "result" of the "resultant pregnant girl".

Shame on both of you.

If neither of you have kids from previous spouses/SOs, how do you know you are both great parents? This younger woman may be struggling, alone, but she's already been a mother for 7 years longer than either of you!She must either want to better her life or is just using school and yet another child as a tool to collect welfare. As if the amount you can collect on welfare is lotto money, and going to school full time while raising an infant and 7 year old in a one bedroom apt is fun, fun, fun.If she really wanted that, she could drop off the bundle of joy on daddy's doorstep and get back to the party!
Now, the perfect newlyweds want to force her to give them at least 50/50, when they say she barely knows the hubby and knows nothing about his DW? Of course she didn't file- he told her their fling was a mistake. She took this as him saying "not my problem." Sounds like "in our forties...thanks for carrying and birthing that baby we might not be able to have."
They both made a mistake, but where is your pride? Your DH is almost old enough to be this WOMAN'S father!
******************
I need a bath...

ANy way you want to look at it, your now husband cheated on you. If you were about to get engaged, then obviously he was "with you" when he cheated with this girl at the bar. I wonder if he led her to believe he was single.

SOunds like you married a real winner ( rolls eyes)

It seems to me that the entire motive here is to take custody of the baby away from the mom, because she doesnt have as much money as your husband. ANd then you can pretend its your child and that the mom doesnt exist.

So, IS he paying her child support voluntarily at the moment?

I also think I need a shower.

"Now she is saying that the army will hire a lawyer, so my friend can make it easier on himself and sign over rights and say goodbye to his little daughter, or just battle and lose."

I have a lot of experience with Oakland co., MI family court. Your BF's ex is LYING.

1. A judge will never allow his rights to be terminated, NEVER NEVER NEVER just because mom wants new dad to adopt. NEVER. It's almost impossible to terminate the rights of abusive parents if they don't want it; much less take away the rights of a parent who wants to stay involved. Let her get a lawyer and run up $25,000 in court costs--she'll get nothing for it.

2. There is a residential clause in Michigan. I forget exactly what it is, something like 25 or 50 miles, and she cannot move farther away than that. Well, she can...but she has to leave her child behind. She will NOT be allowed to take her away from her dad--particularly since dad is an involved dad. Start keeping records of when DD is with dad and when DD is with mom.

Points one and two don't change EVEN IF HE IS BEHIND ON CHILD SUPPORT. However, his positiion is stronger if he's current.

3. I don't think the military is going to hire a lawyer to help a service member forceably adopt the daughter of a nonservice member. The military offers some assistance to SERVICE MEMBERS who are deployed and custodial parents...but they aren't going to get involved in civil cases of non-service members who happen to be married to one of their soldiers.

I know a couple of men in Michigan who got custody of their small children because the mom moved out of state and the courts would not permit the children to go with them. One of them was a 3 year old girl. Mom went to CA and left her daughter behind and pays child support to dad. Yes, the daughter does go and visit the mother in CA over Xmas and for 6 weeks in the summer--but she lives with dad.

Your BF needs to to even entertain these discussions. His ex is not even married yet--this is ludicrous. He needs to tell his ex, NO, and the discussion is over, and it's not negotiable, and he's not even talking about it again.

Let her go to court. BF doesn't even need a lawyer. The judge will assign a Friend of the COurt Family Referee who will hammer out a custody and visitation arrangement.

IN Michigan, if a father wants 50/50 custody, he almost always gets it, if he's been an involved father from the beginning. If your BF did not have a good showing at first or have the sympathy of the court, don't worry about it if it's true and in the last year and a half he's stepped up to the plate. He's now got a track record. That counts.

Your BF's ex is rediculous. She's lying and completely living in fantasy world. She knows she will get nothing without your BF's consent. He needs to make it clear he will NEVER consent.

(Also, he must NEVER consider getting money for giving up his parental rights. This is baby selling and it is illegal and he will get in trouble for it. Not that he would. He has to be very carful not even to discuss it, in case they are secretly recording him.)

Forms,

I realize you are responding to the original post but that was from over a year ago. There was a more recent post from Kelly2009 today (she should have started a new thread) and it's a different issue completely.

I don't think it's that hard to get 50/50 custody in Michigan, particularly in the lower part (maybe it's harder in the rural areas?); but it's hard for a father to get more than that. It's also a little tricky to get 50/50 of an infant, especially a breastfeeding infant. But Oakland, Macomb, Wayne, and Wastenaw county, it's sort of there for the asking, so let him be persistent asking. Just keep asking and asking.

For the lady who wanted to get custody of her husband's daughter from his fling; you can probably get 50/50, but you live so far away what will you do when school starts? Maybe you won't get 50/50 right away, give it a couple years, show involvement and ask again in a year, then in another year. Mothers hate 50/50 at first, but usually find it advantageous after a while.

A couple things to remember: it does not matter ONE BIT who has more money or more time or more bedrooms or a bigger house. It does not matter. Richer parents are not necessarily better parents, and being poor is NOT a handicap in custody fights. Poor people love their children just as much as richer people do AND CHILDREN LOVE THEIR POORER PARENTS AS MUCH AS THEY LOVE THEIR RICH ONES.

SOmething else to consider: when discussing custody in court with FOC referee or the judge, talk mostly about your strengths and what you have to offer your child--don't disparage the other parent.

"I love my child, I want to be with her, to raise her to take care of her and spend time with her", sound a million times better to officials than, "S/He's a horrible parent. S/He's neglectful, is never home, parties all the time, lets the kids watch R movies, keeps them up all hours, smokes in front of them, doesn't clean the litter box very much, doesn't make them eat their vegetables, etc..."

There are a lot of different ways to raise children, and most work out well. ANd remember, just because your ex is a terrible parent, it doesn't mean you are a good one. You might both be terrible parents. Kids are neglected in 4 bedroom houses as well as in one bedroom apartments. Rich people do drugs, drink and party just as well as poor ones. As much as you disapprove, let it go. Spend your time promoting yourself and your relationship with the child.

Now, if there are REAL issues that can be proven, that's different. But run of the mill slovenly parenting is going to be pretty much dismissed by the judge.

I had a friend who's ex was hospitalized once or twice for bipolar. He actually threw their 3 week old infant across the room, the baby hit the wall and bounced down on a bed, and had a stroke a couple days later. This father STILL got 50/50 custody. I know another child who had a hand print shaped bruise on his back when he was returned to his mother: his father got 50/50.

The way to get custody is slow and steady. Prove yourself loving, generous, involved, responsible, stable. If your ex is a flake, unstable, a shoddy parent, over the course of a year or two it will become apparent to the judge. Judges don't generally take your word for it that the other one is substandard, they want to see it for themselves.

Kelly2009, you may see the mother as being lazy and inadequate, but remember, the judge may see her as a hardworking student who is valiently trying to improve her life and that of her children after she was seduced and dumped by a man who sounds a lot older than her (20 years in his career) and who used her without affection and discarded her for someone else and is now trying to give her baby to his new wife and is using his income and position to back her into a corner.

It may not be the truth, but it could be viewed that way. You and your husband could be viewed as bullying and callous.

My son is a divorce lawyer in Michigan; there is a presumption of 50/50 there. It's relatively new, a couple years old, and has been that way in practice for a long time before it became official.

THere is a good divorce site (not run by me or my son or anyone I know, but by a Michigan lawyer) called divorceonline. You might want to post your questions there as well.

To VIctoria who originally posted; if everything you say is true, your boyfriend's ex will not be able to take his parental rights and visitation away.

Maybe the reason kelly2009 sounds remarkably forgiving of her BF/H's infidelity is that they planned it that way all along - maybe they were hoping that that 28 year old would be an unwitting surrogate mother, since she is too old to have any kids. Maybe they were hoping that she would give up custody willingly, or that they would win custody because they have a big fancy house and more money.

If she didn't file, how did he even find out she was pregnant or where she lives? The being resentful that he didn't marry her would make a lot more sense if the OP is lying about it being a one night stand.

whoa ladies...I guess I should have taken more time in giving you all the details. Ok ( dont kill me over the spelling) He did not date her. He never took her out anywhere they met ata sports bar and she would come in on the nights the deputies were there. Yes he made a mistake BEFORE we were engaged and married. When she came back some time later to tell him she was pregnant he DID tell her then that we were then engaged it was a few months later. She told him then that she was going to get an abortion. She then fell off the earth. Then even later she contacts him to tell him she kept it. He told her he was getting married. She was furious but she did try to get him to spend time with her. He said no. We got married. I met her after the baby was born she IS a good mom lets get that clear. She takes very good care of her daughter. She also has moved 7 times in 7 years and on welfare for almost 8 from her other child a son whos father isnt around. I have spent many hours talking to her about the BEST interest of their little girl so has my husband. She admitted to me clearly that she had "hoped" that he would stay with her because she was pregnant. NOT. He told her from the minute he found out that it was not going to happen and they were both at fault. Now I have on too many to count times asked her to our home bring her son too open arms extended family. She is in school in her late twenties and I even offered to help with babysitting so she could study. I have done it all. Yes we help clothes furniture diapers you name it. She REFUSES to let my husband have her more than 2 hours twice a week which is why we are going back and yes WE initiated the case against her back to court. She is being unreasonable. In fact her suggestion is that if my husband wants more time with his daughter he can do it at HER apt. when her son is GONE to friends..alone. My husband has said no. Our attorney has said too that this mother is so very resentful of our marriage that shes using the baby and holding her hostage in visitation. Child support is NOT the issue here we pay it and we dont care. What we want is shared 50/50 parenting time to give her the best of both parents. I hope that paints the pic a little different and are we good parents. Yes! Ive raised 3 outstanding kids now grown and he has raised one now in college. Ok now lets hear it.

It doesn't tell me any different than what I thought before, to be quite honest. It is clearer if anything.

So what? Mom is concerned about the character of her childrens father. I would be quite concerned myself if I was in her situation.

You are a legal stranger, who cares that you offered to babysit? What does that matter?

And lawyers...well, you and DH are paying for him right? He is going to tell you what you want to hear or you are going to read into it.

It is quite telling that you are willing to point out all of her "flaws" or what you perceive them to be, rather than just say DH would like help in getting 50/50 custody. In fact, it makes you and DH look worse.

I'll leave you at one last thing, if she was soooo resentful of your marriage she would've filed for support earlier or made a bigger deal of the child she has with your husband. You are reaching on that one.

"Now I have on too many to count times asked her to our home bring her son too open arms extended family. She is in school in her late twenties and I even offered to help with babysitting so she could study. I have done it all. Yes we help clothes furniture diapers you name it."

You are too involved in her life. You need to back off. Enmeshment is not healthy and control is not nice. She doesn't need you to mother her. She doesn't need your advice. You don't know better than her, how she needs to live her life. You need to focus on your lives. She'll figure out her own.

"She REFUSES to let my husband have her more than 2 hours twice a week which is why we are going back and yes WE initiated the case against her back to court. She is being unreasonable. In fact her suggestion is that if my husband wants more time with his daughter he can do it at HER apt. when her son is GONE to friends..alone. My husband has said no. Our attorney has said too that this mother is so very resentful of our marriage that shes using the baby and holding her hostage in visitation. Child support is NOT the issue here we pay it and we dont care. What we want is shared 50/50 parenting time to give her the best of both parents."

That she is resentful of your marriage is all the more reason to establish clear boundaries between your households.

And yes, she is wrong to try to lure your husband with the baby and to try to punish and control him (yes, she has control issues too), with visitation. But to be fair, and you had children so maybe you remember. It's hard for a mother to be separated from an infant. It produces anxiety; biologically if just does. WOmen sometimes have trouble leaving their babies with their own trusted mothers. Much less a strange woman and a man who betrayed her. (Whatever version your husband has of their relationship, she clearly has a different one). It would be kind to cut her some slack.

I think you will get a more generous visitation schedule and eventually win 50/50 custody and eventually she will adjust and be okay.

However you tell the story, your husband was picking up and sleeping with other women in the dating period just before you got engaged. The period in which he was considering if he loved you enough to ask you to marry him. It doesn't say a lot for him that during the period leading up to the proposal he was sleeping with strange women while sleeping with you. ANd you only know about her because she showed up pregnant. While what's done is done, and it's time to move on, you are old enough not to be naive enough to think he behaved honorably. It's your right to shrug it off as meaningless, but most women could not and for good reason. Remember, in relationships like the one your husband had with her, neither is better than the other.

Good luck to you. This is a difficult situation, but I am confident that you will all weather the storm and adjust and find peace.

Putting diet soda in your cart when you meant to pick up the regular stuff is a mistake. Cheating on your GF is NOT a mistake. It is intentional.

A sheriff's deputy is in a position of power. That, combined with the fact that he is old enough, or close to old enough, to be her father, makes what he did even more inexcusable.

Of course she has to keep moving - she doesn't have the luxury of owning her own home. She is subject to the whims of her landlords.

No mother in her right mind would want a couple of near strangers taking off with her five month old baby for five minutes, much less hours at a time.

Really and truly, I was just trying to be nice and I was just responding to what she told me she needed. Im the type to always extend a hand. Maybe I shouldnt have. Im NOT saying what he did was right, it wasnt AT ALL and no I wasnt happy but we put it aside and focused on the baby and how to get thru life with some happiness. I certainly didnt mean to offend and like I said, once she told me what she needed, I just offered to help. She didnt file for support because she said she had plans to move out of state when she finished school and didnt want the ties.

1) Babies need to be with their mothers the vast majority of the time, unless the mother is incapable of taking care of them.

2)The OP said,

"The mother is NOT willing to allow the child out of her sight at all."
Later, she said:

"She REFUSES to let my husband have her more than 2 hours twice a week"

In the first post, she said,
"We believe the mother just wants support,"

but in the latest post she said,

"She didnt file for support because she said she had plans to move out of state when she finished school and didnt want the ties."

I think there is a lot more to this story than what has been presented.

Fifty/fifty custody sometimes works when both parents have been very much involved in the child's life. This is not the case here. I see absolutely no benefit to the child of having his life disrupted by constantly going back and forth between homes.

Why would the mother think it would be a good for her child to spend time with a guy who isn't even responsible enough to practice safe sex effectively, and who would use his macho-cop image (although I got to admit, I can't read "sheriff's deputy" without thinking Barney Fife) to get a much younger woman into bed with him while he had a serious girlfriend, and a woman who would actually marry a guy while another woman was carrying his child.

I think Sylvia nailed this one...

Mom may have been a fling but she certainly isn't willing to be a surrogate...

As a mom would you want your 5 month old taking off with "some guy" you only met after hanging out at bar on a couple of nights....

You said yourself she doesn't "know him" or you for that matter... as a mom I wouldn't let my 5 month old be with anyone else but me not my mom or even their dad.

Give mom a break at 5 months old the child isn't missing out on much being mom more than "dad" .... if she were 5 years old it would be a more urgent issue ...

I am sure as the child gets older mom will be more willing to have a different visitation schedule and if you start out being mean and nasty how amicable do you think it will be in 5, 10 or 15 years from now?

Where is everyone coming up with this "surrogate" thing? Goodness, he is only trying to take responsiblity, as he should. I cant help the situation, no he shouldnt have been involved but whats here is here..whats the best way to deal with it? Be horrible to her because of what they both did? No way am I doing that to her. Ive tried to be VERY open minded and help when SHE asked me for it, not the other way around. SHE asked for day care help, she asked that we, yes, WE be active in her daughters life and I support her school choice and the fact that after 7 years of welfare, she working hard at it. BUT, on the other hand, after doing all of that when SHE asked and countless times she called me, she is now back peddaling. I guess when DNA comes back THAT will be a help but right now she was even told by the judge that in treating this as it is his daughter, she cannot deny him visitation, now she is. Thats the whole point here NOT wanting her to be a surrogate for goodness sake.

Now you are waiting for DNA test results???

If your upstanding husband wants to make his daughter's life better, why doesn't he get his child's mother an apartment or house with two bedrooms? Why can't he pay the difference between what she pays for a one bedroom and the cost of a two bedroom? If he wants 50/50, why doesn't he offer to help her get a nicer place near your home so it is more convenient for her?

I'm just sensing that you feel hostile towards this woman.. maybe because she slept with your boyfriend, maybe because she is using the baby to control him, but I don't get the sense from ANY of your posts that you are okay with what happened. You may be telling yourself that in order to go on with your 'happily married' facade, but hiring an attorney to seek 50/50 as soon as the baby was born looks more like vindictiveness than good will. From your first post, it appears that your husband doesn't want to pay support, he'd rather take the child 50%. Normally, I think KKNY is crazy when she says parents only want 50/50 to reduce child support but in this case, I have to wonder if his motives are to take the child because of your ages (and perhaps you can't have a child together) and he worries that later on, she'll file for support (when she's moved to another state) and he won't be able to get more than EOW and will have to pay a lot of child support considering he's been in his career for 20 years. I see plenty of ulterior motives here and from the critical way you describe the mom from the get go, the motive here isn't to help her out. If she was only after child support, then why didn't she file it. I see that you are now doing a lot of back pedaling.

She has every reason to fear that you and your husband may try to take her child away from her. Just here, you have tried to paint a picture of her being an unfit mom for being on welfare and living in a small apartment. and even though you say "we help clothes furniture diapers you name it.", that ISN'T child support. Cash money every month so she can pay his child's portion of bills is child support. If he were paying child support to her, she might be able to afford a bigger place.

"Goodness, he is only trying to take responsiblity, as he should."

He should have been responsible in not cheating on you and he should have been responsible in using protection. Being responsible now is making sure his daughter isn't suffering because of his lack of responsibility. If he were offering financial help instead of seeking to take the child away 50% of the time, the mom might not be so worried that his only motive here is to take her child from her to avoid paying support. (If I were the mom, I'd be concerned that he's going to eventually want 100% custody, even though right now you say otherwise)

Kelly, I think no matter what you say they are going to throw stones... It's so easy for those who are perfect.

I agree lonepipier, they are tossing stones and obviously they arent reading what has gone on. there isnt enough room on this site to give all the details believe me. Yes btw, I did ask her if she wanted to move to a 2 bedr apt and she siad NO. She cannot move closer to us because of where she goes to school, my God give HER a break and NO dna isnt back yet. We could have however done what most stpuid men do and done NOTHING until dna came back and or we got contacted somehow but NO we didnt do that, we took a diff approach and DID on numerous occasions tried to help out in any way we could. Financial help and school help and clothing and furniture, diapers you name it BUT a father has a legal right to see his child he is the 50% parent here. I am not believe me , am NOT hostile towards this girl, theres NO reason to be, id have to be a very insecure woman which I am not. However, without you looking at the entire picture of 2 people trying to do what is right and what is needed to help this mom out, your not seeing the good here. NO ONE wants to take the baby away from her. NO ONE. Why in the world would we, shes a good mom for Gods sake. But im thinking that somehow ehere you have been thru a bad experience or something. Like friends said to me, " if you put 50 moms in a room whos fathers arent caring enought o spend time with their children or pay their child support and tell them that 1 father is VERY willing WITH his wife to help out dueing her school schedule, come to her apt to babysit if she needs, it , a dif apt and more..how many would turn it down? They'd be happy if those dead beat dads were up to all of that. Goodness sakes, cut some slack here and look at what we're trying to do and the efforts we've been offering only to get slapped. Damn

I didn't hear anyone claim perfection...

but OP's consistently pious, self-righteous tone is just obnoxious & outrageous.

OP, did you ever think that maybe your husband married you *because* this young woman was pregnant?

a 20 year law enforcement veteran who goes to the bar where "all the deputies" hang out & picks up a much younger woman (maybe all the naive young women who like men in uniform hang out there too? maybe he was trolling for law enforcement groupies?), & has unprotected sex with her...
doesn't deserve to remain in law enforcement.

He used his uniform, his badge, & his position to get sex, & now he, & you, are using it to get your own way regardless of the rights of this child's mother.

We do all hear how "nice" you're being to her;

Given the circumstances, "goodness", why on earth would she panic & try to withhold visitation?

This isn't your ("our") baby, & you don't have any rights, no matter what "we" claim "we" are doing for her, no matter what kind of fantasy life you indulge in, preparing a nursery in your home.

How much better, "nicer" it would have been, how much more convincing that you really wanted to help the baby, if you had spent that nursery money subsidizing a 2 bedroom apartment for the family.

Your posts are filled with blatant passive aggression.

I hope this young mother does manage to get away from the 2 of you;
I shudder to think of the harassment your fine upstanding deputy can rain on her head if she hangs around once the court proceedings are finished.

Is he currently paying child support? Not just buying stuff for the baby, but paying according to the state guidelines, which would probably be in the vicinity of 25% of his gross income?

You obviously are assuming that he is the father, even before the DNA results come back. Why? That seems like a rather rash assumption, based on a one night stand. Maybe she slept with half a dozen other guys that month.

DNA tests only take about 3 working days to come back. Why on earth wouldn't you do that FIRST, before spending money on a lawyer or trying to set up a visitation schedule, etc. Your husband must be pretty sure that he is really the father. I have having a lot of trouble buying the one-night stand scenario.

"shes a good mom for Gods sake."

so that's why you posted that she's on public assistance & has a one-bedroom apartment & has moved 7 times in 7 years?

You're setting the stage to try to "prove" that the baby would be better off in your fresh new nursery in your bigger house than she is with her mother.

Your conniving is transparent.

& I don't know how long you've been reading this forum, but I've *never* seen the unanimity that I've seen on your post.

You're wrong & everybody here knows it & nobody likes what you're doing/attempting to do.

You're not better than this child's mother, you don't deserve her baby, you're not a superior species, you deserve to get knocked on your kiester by the judge, you need some humility.

tos raises a good point;

what man who picked up a "casual, 1-night stand" at a bar would assume that her baby was his?

wouldn't he assume that she picked up other men as well?

& why would a woman who engaged in a 1-night stand expect or hope that the man would marry her when she realized that she was pregnant?

sounds like he was 2-timing both of you.

Why would you ask her anything? YOU are nothing to her or this child. DNA hasn't even been established! You are overstepping, BIG TIME. This is your husbands responsibility, you have no rights here.

If paternity is not established, no Judge in their right mind is going to tell a mother to allow visitation with strangers, even if there is a slight possibility of paternity.

Okay so if she asked you to be a part of her childs life, what is the problem here? You can't claim that she won't allow visitation but at the same time she has asked for it.

So bottom line, what are you trying to get out of posting here? What responses are you hoping to receive?

You said we did not read this carefully, so I went back and read it carefully. It doesn't make sense.

'...He did not date her. He never took her out anywhere they met ata sports bar and she would come in on the nights the deputies were there. Yes he made a mistake BEFORE we were engaged and married. When she came back some time later to tell him she was pregnant he DID tell her then that we were then engaged it was a few months later. She told him then that she was going to get an abortion. She then fell off the earth. Then even later she contacts him to tell him she kept it. He told her he was getting married. She was furious but she did try to get him to spend time with her. He said no. We got married.'

Then later you said: 'She admitted to me clearly that she had "hoped" that he would stay with her because she was pregnant. NOT. He told her from the minute he found out that it was not going to happen and they were both at fault.'

To recap: they met two nights in a row in a sports bar and had sex. They never had a date. So logically, there was no expectation of affection, friendship, love, or commitment.

She disappeared out of his life, he disappeared out of hers. She never saw him again (per your DH) until two or three months later she popped up and told him she was pregnant. He said he was engaged. She said she was getting an abortion. She disappears again out of his life and he out of hers. Again they apparently both agree that there is no expectation of friendship, love, or commitment. Their actions indicate that they both accept it was a one- or two-night stand that meant nothing, that the pregnancy was unfortunate but meant nothing to either of them, and that they each had their own lives and no interest in each other.

And yet, you said: "She admitted to me clearly that she had "hoped" that he would stay with her because she was pregnant. NOT. He told her from the minute he found out that it was not going to happen and they were both at fault."

If she hoped he would stay with her...(and stays means he never left her, as in he continued the relationship after the two one-night stands)...why would she tell him he was getting an abortion and then drop off the face of the earth. Why wouldn't she be 'furious' that she was told otherwise. But that's not what happened. She told him she was pregnant and getting an abortion, he told her he was engaged and wasn't going to marry her--and then she (according to the story you heard from your DH) dropped off the face of the earth.

Then out of nowhere about six or seven months later, she calls him and says the baby was born and she kept it. He says that he is just about to get married and suddenly 'she is furious' and tries to get him to spend time with her. But she does not let him see the baby much and she does not want child support.

This also does not make sense. Why would she suddenly be 'furious' on their 4th contact in abt 10 months? If she wasn't furious when he stopped picking her up in the bar (if he did stop), and she wasn't furious when she told him she was having a baby and he responded that he was engaged, why would she suddenly be 'furious' once the baby is born and she hears for a second time he's getting married?

If she's going to be furious that he's getting married, why wasn't she furious the first time she heard it when she told him she was pregnant? If the girlfriend and your DH really didn't have any contact except two one-night stands, and a quick conversation about pregnancy and abortion, why would she suddenly be furious about him about to get married when she hadn't had any contact with him for six or seven months and there'd never been any understanding of love, friendship or commitment between them?

Do you really believe that she just dreamed it up in her head without any input from him? As you describe it, they were two rather disinterested strangers in the night at the time of conception, spent a few minutes together around month three discussing the pregnancy, abortion and his engagement; and then after the baby was born she popped up and is furious that he's getting married?

Kelly, Kelly, Kelly...this does not make sense. Why was she furious? Because she believed there was going to be a different outcome, because she felt betrayed. And she felt that way because he led her to believe that she meant something to him.

However, the story makes sense another way. He was seeing her and you at the same time. He proposed to you but kept her on the side and kept his engagement a secret, but he keeps seeing. She comes up pregnant and tells him and expects to get married, move in together, or move the relationship to another level of commitment. He waffles and sooths her with some excuse or some promise to delay her expectations and she's satisfied and continues to gestate and they continue to see each other. There's no talk of abortion, that's a story your DH came up to explain to you why he didn't confess the pregnancy earlier and to hide his continued involvement with the girlfriend. Then after the baby is born she expects him to step up to the plate, or she finds out about you. In any case, your DH is cornered and lets her know he's going to marry you, not her. She becomes furious at this point because she realizes she's been betrayed and used.

There's another red flag. Per your story, she's a welfare no-account who hangs around bars and sleeps with strangers without caring about a relationship or commitment. Easy come, easy go. So she spent two nights running with a sheriff's deputy and then never saw him again. No big deal. So she's pregnant. She'll just have an abortion. No matter. It's just a thing that happens when you hang around bars and pick up strange men and have sex with them and then don't intend to see them again. Although maybe it's something you can use to get a man to marry you. So she's a calculating floozy who picks up strange men in bars and sleeps with them without a commitment unless she gets pregnant, in which case she wants to marry them, even though per your story she's spent two nights and one additional conversaton with him, when he told her he was engaged--maybe a total of 24 hours? Yet that's enough for her to disappear out of his life for months and months while carrying his child, then pop up out of nowhere and suddenly be furious that he's not going to marry her and that she "hoped" he would because she was pregnant.

How would she know he was marriage material, a nice person, someone she wanted to spend the rest of her life with. How would any affection have time to develope if they only spent two nights together and then had nothing to do with each other at all for the next nine or ten months?

If that were the case, there'd be no 'hoping' he'd marry her, there'd be no fury when she realized he wasn't going to.

Also--considering she's a dellusional promiscuous bar floozy--your DH never questioned this was his child. He seems pretty confident that the dna test is going to prove him the father. Confident enough to spend money on the mother and attempt a relationship with the child. If she were just a easy bar pick-up, he'd be wondering if it were his child or not, or why she thought it was his child. There must be other candidates for fatherhood. And he'd hold off on the getting involved in her life until he knew for sure.

Except it looks like he already knows for sure. And he knows because they've had more of a relationship than he's letting on to you. She's not a dellusional promiscuous bar floozy, she's someone he knows pretty well and has known for a while...and maybe if he plays his cards right he can keeps this going. Get his wife involved in his girlfriend's life--appeal to everyone's noblest sentiments by making it all about what's BEST for the baby.

Interesting that she didn't want child support or anything from him except to see him alone with her baby (their own little family). Child support would not have created ties that would complicate her moving. He would send it to FOC, they'd record it and forward it to any bank of her choosing anywhere in the world. And not accepting child support does not avoid complications of her moving her child away from him. Whether he pays child support or not, if he's the bio father, he has rights, one of which may be to prevent her from moving.

So what's the real reason she didn't want child support? Maybe because he's providing more than state guidelines to her secretly? Or maybe because she's accepted that he's married and he two timed her and she just wants to get away and not have to think about him again. I don't know. I just think that someone who 'hoped' a man would stay with her because she was pregnant and who was furious when she realized he was marrying someone else, and who will only get him visit his daughter alone in her apartment when her son is gone--would also insist on support, because support officializes a ties she seems to want.

I don't know the particulars, but I do believe that you have been mislead. The story doesn't make sense. I know yo have to defend him, have to believe what he's told you. It must have been very painful for you to know he cheated on you with her just before you became engaged. This can't be fun and you seem to be making the best of things and seem to be trying to be a good sport. I just fear that you are gullible and are likely to be hurt.

Now THAT was THES best thing any of you out there has said and I THANK YOU. Finally someone who makes some sense here! I mean that. Putting it THAT way is much more underdtandable. I am NOT the bad guy here NOR am I blind. and to the prior posts who state maybe I used her a s a surrogate, get a life, If I wanted another child Id have one myself. Enough of that nonsense. Now onward...
You have to understand here, she calls me, not him. Thats has sensed changed since we went to court. She told me ( I listened to her carefuly) that she KNEW who he was, she goes to the same bar with her friends that he did BEFORE he & I were even together. They would talk and have a good time so, in a sense they "knew" each other from those ights and saw each other at the bar over a period of months so..she knew about him ect.. THEN they slept together and bang shes pregnant. She agreed that HE did sit her down and talk to her when she told him she was pregnant and said to her, there has never been a relationship ect.. she agreed and then told him she was aborting. He believed. She came back. He THEN, now that Im in the pic..tells her about me. She really did go awya and SHE told me that since she had raised 1 child alone she wanted to "move away and do it myself". But..she then kept it ( good choice and its ours as women) she came back and told him and he then told her is was by that time engaged. HER story DOES match up to his and I do have to believe her. ALTHOUGH...he did NOT tell her when we were getting married. She went her way again in Aug not seeing him again until Jan when I met her after we were married. She was out of the pic 5 months and no, didnt know we were planning a wedding nor got married..why would she. She agreed to that. As I talked to her more, she sais SHE was surprised because SHER thought once the baby was born HE would see it and change his mind, she had "hoped". It didnt turn iout that way now here we all are. Now thats all from HER side not his. His side as far as their meeting, encounters ect match what she told me so I have no reason to doubt her. In HER defense and yes I do side with her on some issues, she is a great mom. But what we now have is simple. She is envious that this man she thought she knew by simply getting to know hiom in a bar over drinks and pool over a few months, then an encounter resulting in this, did not marry her. She is now so resentful that she just figured well, if he's not with me, he cant see his daughter. It is all very sad. SHE told me she'd rather talk to me than to him. That was fine for awhile until we asked for visitation then POOF! gone. so, we had to get a lawyer at that point in order for him to see his daughter. There really ist anything underlying here except for the fact, HE didnt know her either. I said to both of them, you guys spent some time talking about lots of things, ect..a few hours maybe once a week running into each other in the bar. THEN you have this encounter. SHE thinks you're great ( him) but you both dont know each other in reality and now your getting to really know each other based on this situtation and you guys cant agree although he's trying and shes refusing. I only was brought into this BY HER. I swear to God, she after meeting her, would call ME to talk, to plan anything to ask questions. for 2 months she called me not him. I offered to help any way I could. He didnt ask me to talk to her at all, it was what SHE said she felt comfy with. Now that she sees this didnt rock our marriage aprt, she wont talk to either of us. Does she feel used. I imagine so and I dont blame her at all.
You ask what do I hope to get from these posts: Someone to tell me if I should stop being nice at all and just simply back out of it and let them battle it out now.

I used to share a bedroom with DD because I had no chance of getting a bigger place.

Also when me and my brother grew up our parents slept in the living room, I slept in the bedroom and my brother slept in a storage room that had a window.

But it was when we were teenagers.

When we were babies there were 7 people living in one bedroom for few years. Grandparents in a living room, mom dad and us two in a bedroom, and mom's sister in a storage room. And one bathroom. and we all do just fine. All succesful professionals and all have great relationships with one another.

My BF grew up when not only they well slept in the same room, they all slept in the same bed, or rather something set up on the floor, but parents and 3 kids sleeping together on the floor under one blanket in a hut. i am glad there was nobody to take children away just because everyone lived in the same room. ha We maybe all slept in the same rooms and all were poor but we sure do not go around and pick girls at bars and get them pregnant.

How ridicilous to suggest to take away a child because mom is poor, shares a room and is on welfare.

I bet you she is resentful! he had a girlfriend while slept with her and got her pregnant and I can guarantee she had no clue he had a girlfriend. Decent people with girlfriends don't sleep with someone else and then say: it is over. Poor woman.

in most cases like yours men say there was no relationship just casual sex, women often see it otherwise. it sounded like they dated (maybe causally, no promices, but they did have dates at that bar), he thought it was just friendly talk here and there, but she possibly thought they were having dates at that restaurant. they were sitting at the bar and having conversations and getting to know each other and then they ahd sex. sounds like, although trashy, but kind of dating.

and where were you while he was going to bars and sitting there and talking to single women FOR MONTHS? since he was there alone of course she assumed he is single guy who wants to get to know her through conversations.

and of course she talks to you not him. he lied to both of you, so she might feel a bond with you because you both are victims of his rather ugly behavior. actually all three of you are victms, poor child too.

I have been in a similar situation with an ex that lives in CA. In Monroe county, at least, neither parent can move a child away more than 60 miles (as far as i can remember) without the other parents concent. he needs to keep records of everything the mother does. Everytime she is "out partying" make notes. If you know where she hangs out, have a friend go and take pics of her and how irresponsible she acts. take pictures of the daughter when she comes to visit and is filthy or injured. Dont give up! A Private Investigator will dig up as much dirt on her as possible trust me i know. If by any chance you are in Monroe county call atty James Rostach. he is dirty and will make the mother look like the trash that she sounds like she is. If there is drug use, demand that the mother gets tested. there are options. tell him not to give up no matter what! No father deserves this

What?? The OP said that the baby's mother is a good mother. Who said anything about drugs?

I am quite certain that you are not supposed to recommend specific lawyers on this message board.

Betrayed-
"If you know where she hangs out, have a friend go and take pics of her and how irresponsible she acts."
If this was to the OP- Victoria-, I guess it makes sense. Although, many married parents hire babysitters and go out to party, so I guess this may not matter!
If it is to Kelly, then should someone take pics when her hubby is hanging out and being irresponsible?

hahah mrsmaddog yep someone should take pics of this guy who hangs out in the bar and plays pool and talks to single women for months and then sleeps with them. and then complains they are resentful.