first of all, while i understand your wife's frustration...she has NO RIGHT to tell you to chose between your daughter and her and send her packing.....you definetely need a thick skin to stepparent children that aren't technically YOURS but you need to be adult about this...my stepdaughter talked on the phone to a friend putting me down majorly talking about putting red paint in my shampoo bottle etc..but was sweet as pie to my face mind you..I taped her conversation..she didn't know it..and played it after for myself and called a meeting with her, her father and myself...I was soooooooooooooooo mad I wanted to scream, to run, to hit...but I dealt with it by saying..do you want to tell your dad what you REALLY think of me, what you said to your friend about me etc. and I put it on HER to tell her father what she had done...and I left her alone..for days...I had to to cool off I was so hurt...that same daughter, a year later, just went with me to get our nails done and helped me around the house today..it does work out...YOU have to be firm with your daughter however...at 14 she is fighting for independence and your wife should learn not to take THAT personally...it is YOUR job though to nip it in the butt right away...if your daughter is being disrespectful or doing things she shouldn't..take away priveledges...if you took away the phone but aren't there to monitor it..how good is that?! she already knows she got one over on you..take away the cell phone altogether..deactivate it...it will take TOUGH measures for your daughter to know that you mean business...tell your wife you are on top of it...and DO IT...and take her on dates (wife) and let her know how much you appreciate and love her and ask for her patience while you work this out

Argon,
Back on May 26th you made a post entitled 'Wife & Daughter'. What I posted in reply to you on May 27th is the same reply I would make with your new post.

I would just add that now your wife is giving you an ultimatum. Argon, you have not been married very long. What is this about your wife allowing herself to get all bent out of shape over your daughter? What about you and her! She is concerned about her stress, but she doesn't seem to give a hoot about yours!

If I re-read your posts about your situation, I can't help but believe that your wife is determined to feel persecuted.

If you read my posts, you know that I often recommend counseling. Here is why--when people try and try to figure out what to do and keep coming up with failure--it is time to get some new perspectives. Counseling is good for that. You certainly seem to have some very great insights, and you are extreemly good at communicating your ideas. For some reason your wife does not trust your judgement.

If your wife does not get counseling soon, your marriage is going to be over as soon as your wife can finish school and get herself a better job. Sound about right?

Your wife needs to see how her thinking is faulty. She needs to recognize that she is reacting--like you say, to her demise. There are the fight or flight reactions people have regarding painful/uncomfortable situations. Your wife seems to be the one that takes flight. Not in it for the long haul--sorry friend.

If your wife won't seek counseling, you and your daughter could go by yourselves. Argon, do not let your wife bully you over your daughter. In fact, I would make a point to take my wife out on a date for a sundae. I would also make a date to take my daughter out for a sundae. But not the two together.

Argon, while your wife is gone, take your daughter out and spend lots of time enjoying each other's company. Ask your daughter what she would like to do. This is a good time to bond closely with her. You may need the comfort she can give you.

Shoot Fire, before I forget... one more thing. When you think your daughter is up to something (or whatever) you don't run to your wife, so the two of you will have something to talk about--do you? What I mean is, she doesn't need anyone feeding her fires. Just a thought.

You have to know, I feel a little strange writting these things to you, sort of like telling a teacher how to add. LOL

Best to you, and you are in my prayers tonight.

Oh geesh, Argon, you need to discipline your child! Obviously, being grounded is not enough punishment for her. Problem is, kids nowadays are so darn spoiled by material things, they think they can bully their parents by having fits/attitude to get what they want.

Your daughter keeps lying because she is getting away with it easily, otherwise, she won't do it again. It's hard to have someone living in your own house that you cannot trust. Think about it, at 14 did you disrespect your parents the way your daughter is doing it you guys? I hope the answer is no. It is not acceptable in any society for a child to be disrespectful, she can "speak her mind" once she's out of your house and paying her own rent and paying for her cellphone bill. She can trash talk her SM when she's on her own, but as long as she's in your house, she must follow the rules that you and your wife had set, she must respect both of you as you are her parents, I don't care if your wife is "just" her SM, she is the minor in your home, teach your child how to respect people.

It will only get worse, I've been in your wife's shoes. I certainly know how you feel as well, it is stressful and it hurts to see the two people you love fight like this.
I hope you guys go to counselling.

Forgot to add: Maybe your wife needs a little time-off, does she have relatives close by she can stay with for a few days?

Callmerae's and msjam's analyses are right on. Perhaps our women's perspectives can help you understand what's going on in your wife's head and heart.

I've lived this situation, too, and you, personally, achieving an effective degree of authority over your daughter is key. It's not helpful for your wife to be labelled "not in it for the long haul" (I know those were not your words). No one, including stepmothers, should be expected to endure situations where they are the continuous target of abuse and disrespect, a trajectory that, once inside the blended family, they see stretching for years ahead of them unless the biological parent gets it under control. I assure you that the pain your wife is feeling for her to arrive at the point of an ultimatum is tremendous.

BUT, it's not an option for her to tell you to choose between her and your daughter. If there's a choice to be made, your primary obligation is to your daughter. Your wife may come to a point where, realizing she can't endure the present situation, she has to choose to leave. That is her right, and she shouldn't be condemned for it. But it sounds like emergency counselling for both of you is in order.

Your wife badly needs to feel continually supported, loved, and honored by you. The suggestion that you not talk to her about your daughter's behavior, because it would be feeding her fires, is 180 degrees wrong; she needs to be your partner in ALL matters, not feel split off. A family is a hierarchy, with parents at the top, because they have experience, wisdom, and responsibility, with children below. Teenagers make it their job to challenge the hierarchy, and when stepparents are involved, the kids may attempt to drag the stepparent to a co-equal level. Also, teenage daughters in blended families like the idea of having daddy's undivided affections, of being the queen bee in the house, and campaigns to subvert or supplant the stepmother often ensue.

That said, it would be helpful for your wife to get counselling to get some perspective on how nutty teenage girls can be. Currently, your daughter is managing to push your wife's buttons, bringing her behavior and reactions to the same level of a 14-year-old.

For those of you that did not read Argon's previous posts, he explains very well on his post 'Wife & Daughter' on page 2, of May 26th. I am taking into account all of Argon's posts. His problems have not changed. His ideas about having a united front with his wife regarding the children--of course that is what everyone wants.

It's just that the wife doesn't want to be a player any more. That should mean something to YOU 'women'!

Argon, unlike the previous poster, I believe that your wife wants to have a break from your daughter. She has said so. Take her serious. She isn't handling the stress well. If your wife does not want to handle the stress any more, then give her the relief she wants. Take over with your daughter. Leave your wife out of it. In no way at all am I implying that the wife isn't important!! That's IT! She is trmendously important. All this about how a wife should be a part of things, ya da ya da. The wife can be a part of things after she is able to handle her own feelings toward the girl.

Counseling for the wife would probably be out of the question because the wife simply doesn't have the time. That is why I suggest that you and your daughter start seeing a counselor. Make some improvements with your daughter before it is too late for your marriage/wife.

One last note. If you knew what to do/say, etc. with your daughter, it would have happened. You and your daughter, (as well as your wife that has given up) need some new perspectives.

The Wives With Viking Spirits...someone should write a book.

as a woman, I agree with your post newbrier...the wife should of course be a part of the parental authority discussion..the fact that she is frustrated right now doesn't mean you go 180 degrees to eliminate her right now..she is a grown adult with feelings and has been trying to express her feelings. This wife doesn't sound like the type to purposefully go out of her way to be rude to this child-she is trying to parent but not receiving consistent support from the father. Women want their feelings validated. If she says she is at breaking point, handle this or else, she means for you to be an active parent in this and not let things slide or be inconsistent. Many parents try the routine..you take care of yours and I will mine..but it doesn't make for a united family front. The teen needs to KNOW that the parents are on the same page, the wife needs to know that the husband is listening to her concerns and will be consistent with discipline and the husband needs to know that his wife has his daughter's best intentions at heart. The wife is just waiting for the husband to step up to the plate...as father and husband..most of us can sympathsize where she is coming from...closing her out of decisions and spending more time with the daughter and leaving the wife to do her own thing will ONLY MAKE THINGS WORSE.

Thank you all for your posts. The storm has calmed somewhat but I do recognize that there is still a problem to be resolved. For those of you who don't think that I discipline my children, you are wrong. All the children in this house are held accountable. The issue we face is that I have always talked calmly to my children and spent time explaining to them why their action were wrong and the consequence they were to receive. I have never been one to accuseand assume without first getting the fact the best I can. I then best make a decision about discipline from there. I come from a military background so strictness is not a problem but consequences given with understanding and love is important to me. I ahndle all the kids in this manner (hers and mine)But I am learning the teenage girls are a different challenge than boys.
There needs to always be a lesson learned in these situations. My wife is more reactionary and at times delivers consequences before taking the time to investigate the facts. I'm in no way putting her down and love her very much, it's just two different parenting styles. The issue my wife has is that I let my daughter question me when she is in trouble. I have no problem with patience and taking the time to explain the situation so that she understands the whole picture. I am not a fan of the "because I said so" putting the hammer down theory of parenting. I have earned all the childrens respect, I am not one to demand it unless it is getting out of hand. I spent two hrs. yesterday talking to my daughter before my wife got home from work and explained the whole situation to her. She does understand at this point how my wife and I feel, that we must support each others decisions and that her actions, not her words, need to change. She is still without her phone. The reason that I let her take a phone yesterday was because she works selling watermelons at a stand outside in not the best part of town, by herself. It is during the day with a lot of traffic but she needs one in case of emergencies. I let her take my cell phone so I could check the bill to see if she used it otherwise. My daughter suggested after we spoke last night that we just put her phone up and not give her one at all. She apologized to my wife last night when she got home as well.
Today my wife went to spend the day with her son which I fully support. I was glad that she was going to get out and get some stress relief. We all need it right now. I am only 36 and I swear some days I feel 10 yrs. older.
I had reservations to take her out to a nice dinner tonight (before this came to a head) and will probably end up fixing her dinner here if she gets home late. I fix dinner for everyone every night and have the kids clean up. I take her dinner in the bedroom while she is studying beacuse she is busy, busy, but fulfilling a lifelong dream to become a nurse after having been worked as a progammer for about 8 yrs. She is talented, driven, and very smart and beautiful :).
She has four kids and I have 4 so it is a full house when all are here. Ages range from 4-20 so it is quite a mix and challenge. We have a 14 and two 17 yr olds living with us right now and my 4 and 7 yr old are here the majority of the time although they live 250 miles away. We have lots of issues with my ex and fortunatley have none with hers. I do my best to temper my ex but that in itself adds stress to us all.
Anyway, maybe now you all have a better understanding of the situation. Some days I think we are glutton for punishment :) but I know there is always room for positive growth.
Thank you all again for letting me vent and giving your insight.

Argon

I am glad that you have a bit of reprieve right now and it is good that you are on top of handing out discipline when needed. I used to discipline and discuss things with my eldest son but found the questioning got out of hand and led to talking back so I ended it. What then worked for me was to hand out discipline (all kids KNOW when they have done wrong..we don't need to explain ourselves to death) and then after a time has past I will discuss the situation with them further. Your wife but be reacting more now too because of stress and alittle because it is not her child so she is alittle on edge...girls are wayyyyyyyy different than boys in raising. I always found that boys tell it like it is and girls are more devious and sneaky..they play alot of games against parents if you let them..good luck to you..you sound like a very loving husband and father who very much loves his wife.

If you want someone to take responsibility for the things they say and do--BELEIVE what they say is what they mean, and BELIEVE what they do is what they mean to do.

You said that your wife is working two jobs and is involved in nurse's school/training or something. I know something about the studying that goes into becoming a nurse--very intense. So just how much time does your wife have to be involved in home matters? Does she take care of the home, cook, shop, etc? Does she pay any attention to her son? Do you help her? Well, you said you love her dearly--I don't know how to interpret that--but do you pitch in and do you see to it that the kids all do what's expected of them?

My sister (had 4 children) became a nurse and she had to have help from more than just my brother-in-law;our mother had to help her too. She had to spend just about every moment when she was home to study. She didn't even talk on the phone or go grocery shopping. She didn't have time to do laundry either. And she wasn't lazy at all.

So believe me, Argon, I am in great sympathy with your wife (in spite of what some posters think). Of course your wife needs your compassion!!

Argon, your wife has gone from distancing herself from you to threatening to leave. Remember when you wrote that your daughter said that she (the daughter) can't do anything right and that she (the daughter) is always in trouble referring to herself and what your wife thinks. Remember when you wrote about how your wife hates the traits of your X (manipulation and lieing) and how you believe your wife is reacting to the daughter with the X's faults in mind? You did not say that the wife was identifying your X with your daughter, but you made that implication.

Some of what you wrote lead me to believe that your wife is feeling persecuted. You didn't reply to that post I made to you back on May 27th. I thought I was being insightful.

You also brought up your wife's son that is 17. You wrote that he was a pathological lier. What about him? Are the two of you getting along? If you are not getting along real well with her son, could it be that your wife might think she would be better off if she takes her son and leaves? I know that being a single parent is easier than taking on a spouse and the spouse's children (was for me,anyway). Perhaps your wife was doing fine before she married you. You said you have been married only a short time. Was your wife a single parent for very long?

You also mentioned all the activities your daughter was involved in, and that she made very good grades. Then you mentioned that she had a job and I don't remember how many hours you said she worked--but it was an awful lot of hours. So Argon, I thought your daughter was only 14; how does she get around? Does she pay for her own cell phone or other things that she wants? Does she help around the house--although I don't know how she would have time. But does she at least pick up after herself and respect the rules of the home?

So exactly what does she do that causes your wife stress? Lieing? If your daughter is lieing about where she has been, why would you allow her to spend the night at a friends house? You don't let kids that lie do that--not for the rest of the days she lives with you. You can figure that one out. I would think that if she gets caught lieing that she would suffer a logical consequence. A daughter that lies would not get my permission to date--not even double dates. Especially when she is made to feel like a creep by your wife--and would love to get out of there as soon as possible. Don't enable your daughter to get involved with a young boy. You are not ready to be a grand dad--If she yells at your wife, she would get sent to her room and would not be allowed out of the house until she has experienced remorse. That includes going to a job. So she looses her job. She has to know that you are not going to tolerate her getting in your wife's face. Even if your wife is absolutely wrong--your daughter has to take it on the chin. When you say that she has been some place other than where you thought she was--are we to assume you have placed some boundaries on where your daughter can go, or who she can see?

Just what kind of things does your daughter actually do that annoys your wife? Are the issues always the same, or are you able to figure out exactly what is going on between them? Obviously, your wife isn't so united a front with you when it comes to not being able to help herself with her reacting (The posters here don't know what that means, but I know you do.) Is she only united with you when it comes to giving the daughter a hard way to go? (That should get you babies something to cry about.) If your family were to go into counseling, a counselor would ask you all to be specific.

Well, I don't suppose I have anything left to say.

I don't expect you to respond--I've just put some ideas out there for you to discard or give some consideration. Best to you

Brass tacks - Thanks for the post and if I did not reply to a past post of yours, sorry, things have been hectic with 4 kids in the house and another one moving in full time 3 weeks ago. You are always very insightful and I enjoy your thoughts.
To answer your questions...
Wife is busy and stressed. Her schooling takes so much time but we both made that commitment and I am behind her 100%. The kids and I try to take care of the house - cleaning, cooking, lawn, etc. but she gets frustrated becasue she wishes she had time to do more.
Daughter works 60-90 hrs. per week. I know it is a lot but she thrives off of it and likes the responsibility she has.
Wife had 17 yr. old before but was alot more free to come and go as she pleased. I had my daughter adn younger ones every other weekend so I was fairly free as well.
I have learned how to deal with her son - lots of patience...and consequences.
You are right teenage girls are different than boys of the same age...but I don't ever let her do things after she has gotten in trouble. No leaving the house, phone privelidges, etc, but I do let her work becasue she uses her earnings to help pay for school clothes, cheerleading, activities, etc.
You are right on your united theory, but I am working on that with my wife. I have to find the right approach to get my point across...You know several ways to skin a cat, huh?
Again, I know you get lambashed on here sometimes, but you have some great thoughts fro me to ponder and implement. Thanks again!
I gotta close, baking my wife a cake for her b-day and the kids say it is done...I'll check back later...

Wow, Argon, you sound like a real gem--baking a cake for her b-day! Your earlier comment about being from a military background gave me a little insight, I think. My own spouse was also military, and his approach to dealing with kids' misbehavior was much like yours, lots of talking with the SKs to understand why they did what they did, whereas my response would be, you broke a rule, here's the consequence, end of story. My spouse had grown up with a very authoritative career military father who brooked no nonsense and was kinda scary, and he didn't want to do that with his kids.

Sounds good so far, but here's the problem. His children, being highly intelligent, would stretch these talks into 2 or 3-hour marathon sessions, on and on and on, wearing him down until he either lessened the consequence a child was about to receive, or simply stopped talking out of exhaustion. Both kids had great powers of rationalization, and his daughter was relentless in her arguments, combining them with screaming and crying. His unwillingness to be the "heavy" with kids, combined with his own issues with parental authority rendered him ineffective and our house became complete mayhem, ruled by children, not parents. He not only lost his kids' respect, he lost mine, too, because the kids realized they could talk their way out of any real consequences.

My stepdaughter would say the same things to my husband: stepmom is always on her case, stepmom doesn't think she can do anything right, etc.

My spouse finally learned to be consistent with her, enforcing the household rules, but my SD continued the battles until she went away to school. He also became much clearer with the kids that all decisions regarding them, including discipline, would be made by both of us, but that if I decreed a consequence for misbehavior, I had his complete backing. The most important change was my knowing that my position in the household had been reinforced, and the kids knew it too. And once I knew I really, truly had that reinforcement, paradoxically it became easier for me to view teenage misbehavior for what it often was: being a teenager.

This may be the crux of the matter for your wife.

I agree about the talking..we used to do that with my eldest son who too, would drag it out as long as possible, argue and show disrespect...I found it was easier to lay down the law so to speak and then follow it up at a later date with discussion as to why I gave the consequence I did

From reading this forum, and from the several friends that I personally know that have married men with children...it is the same senario over, and over, and over.

Man (with children) meets woman. They fall in love. woman knows man has children and is fine with it. Woman marries man. Woman works very hard now that she has him to get his kids out of the picture. She cannot stand his children and does not want them living with them. ESPECIALLY AFTER SHE GETS PREGNANT AND HAS "THEIR" CHILD. Woman has now gotten his kids out of the picture. He may even be a parent to HER children. Notice...her children get to stay. Only his have to leave.

Must be incredibly painful as a child to see the father you thought would be there for you through thick and thin, only to find out that he wimped out and gave up his own children because it made his new wife stressed out.

Read this forum. Read how many of the new wifes try to get his kids out of her nest. If your daughter has to leave, is her son also leaving?

Please read my posts on: My step daughter may be moving in!!!

I understand how some kids can be difficult. But to tell someone you are supposed to love that they have to kick their child out of the home...how is that love?

And women...before you attack me telling me the abuse you suffer from these children, how would you feel if you had to give up your children, or your husband would leave you?
Would that feel like love to you? Would that feel like a spouse who cares about you, and supports you? Would that feel like someone who loves you enough to walk through this role of step-parents, and struggle through it together? To stand by your side and help you in any way they could? That is what love should mean. That you struggle through this together, coming up with rules, and a game plan together. That love is in good times and in bad, and together you persevere though it hand in hand. And you will struggle. It will be one of the hardest things you will ever do. And you work together to help these kids feel loved, supported, and you put together rules, and if they break them, there are consequences. But you do your best to hang in there and help your child become the best adult you possibly can.

Teenagers stretch even their natural parents. But you hang in there together and walk through it day, by day, by day.

And also, your wife is in a new marriage. She has too much on her plate. That would make anyone cranky. Perhaps she should take a breather for a bit, and concentrate on her new marriage.

And last, since you are newly married, she sure is quick to to a quitter, and toss aside the marriage. It sounds like it is not that important to her that she would walk without barely trying. just my opinion.

And no, you do not spank a 14 year old. Are you kidding?!?

I would like to add that not all women want to kick out their husbands kids! I fought with my husband to get custody of his kids when the girls were taken away from their mom for drugs and alcohol..I spent many long hours writing affidavits and paperwork for court and many court sessions and I am still here...on the other hand my ex husband is very abusive and taught my eldest son when he was 13 to stand up for himself, his rights and to tell us off...chores were bootcamp he said...so my son listened to that garbage and stood up for himself at every turn..swearing, shoving like his dad, telling us he did not have to listen...this is MY son...I told him he wasn't following house rules and our ways and he needed to go to his dad's...that killed me..still does...but I did that with my own son because right is right...that same son just called me 1.6 years later, this past sunday bawling that his dad hit and abused him and he needed a place to go...and I wasn't home...I sent social services over to the home and now my son changed his story completely..I believe,..to protect his dad who was very abusive to me in our marriage...but we all make choices...my son has to learn the hard way..it is the road HE chose..when he has had enough there he will come back..but sometimes we have to show tough love...fact is, I fought for my sd to live here and made a tough decision to tell my son to leave because he was too disruptive and abusive..everyone has a different story.

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