I think your SD is very mature and level headed. I'm not sure if talking to her mom would help. It might. But her mom may also not care what her daughter wants if she's more concerned with how it will impact her. She may be worried that she will lose child support or have to pay. she may be worried that she will be lonely without her child. She may feel that it will make her look like a failure as a parent. It may be another reason altogether, so it's hard to know how it will go over if you try to talk to her.

I know that if my son decided he wanted to go live with his dad I would be devestated! I can sympathize with how bm is probably feeling. But, if bm would not have moved so far away this might not have ever been an issue because the kids would have had access to both parents consistantly.

Anyways, I do not think that you calling bm would help. It might actually hurt things. I would leave it to the courts and maybe suggest to sd to tell her mom her reasons.

Ima-
Yes, she is mature & level-headed. However, she still is having a tough time handling Mom's responses/replies when she's trying to be honest/open with her. I guess I can't blame her...I'd be leary to keep trying if I were constantly being reminded what a disappointment I was.

mom2-
I agree with you...on all levels. I was a single mom for 10 years before DH and I met. And I too would have been devastated. Which is why I always made sure my son had easy access to his father and father's family at his wish. I'm curious as to why you think trying to talk with Mom might hurt things. I'm really trying to think of every possibility here, and appreciate your feedback. Of course, we've always encouraged SD to be open/honest about her feelings/wishes with her mom, but unfortunately, Mom seems to shoot that down at every attempt. I imagine this is why SD said she'd be perfectly fine talking to the judge if she had to. Of course, she'd rather not have to, but.... My hope is that by sharing some of SD's issues/reasons with Mom, which I'm certain she hasn't heard, maybe she will realize that this isn't "just a phase", as she has told SD she thinks it is. I'm hoping maybe she'll have an "aha" moment. So, I'm really interested in your feedback as to why this might hurt the situation. I'm sure there's something I haven't considered, and don't want to jeapordize the situation. Thanks again.

Do you think you SD could put in writing exactly how she feels? If she could get it all out on paper her mom can read it when she is alone. No guilt trip for SD. Part of me wants to say how fortunate your SD is for so many loving people in her life but then part of me feels so badly mom is making her feel guilty for wanting more time with her dad.

eandhl,
Very good idea. I may discuss this with DH and SD. She is a fantastic writer anyways. And yes, she does have lots of loving people in her life, including her mom. Unfortunately, her Mom has created this distance that has prompted this desire by both kids. And more unfortunately, Mom doesn't want to recognize this as the problem, and is having a hard time (understandably) dealing with it.

Good luck. It is so sad mom only sees it as "how can you leave me with no children" vs spend more time with your dad, visit me often. Most moms would love to have their children have a wonderful, loving and supportive dad.

"Unfortunately, her Mom has created this distance that has prompted this desire by both kids."

So are you now saying that their mother is somehow responsible for them wanting to live with their father during high school? Earlier you said that the daughter said, "it's not about Mom or stepdad or living there at all, it's really just that she misses her dad."

TOS,

From reading other posts it is evident that the bm chose to move the kids states away from their father. So yes, she did create the distance. If she had not chosen to move the kids so far from their father then they would not feel the only way to spend more time with him was to move in with him.

I know she moved the kids away - I interpreted "create this distance" to refer to emotional distance between the mother and the daughter, not physical, because you can't "create" physical distance. You can create the situation, but not the actual distance.

TOS,
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Had she stayed put, here in the same community, both kids would have had frequent, equal, easy access to both parents...clearly what they want. Sadly, she moved them away. I think the only way they can get the access to Dad that they missed for all those years, is to relocate back here.

Also, here's a little science experiment for you:
1. Place object #1 at point A on the floor.
2. Place object #2 at point B on the floor.
3. Move either object to a point further away from the other object.

Test on above experiement:
Question: What happened in step 3 of experiment?

Answer: You created distance between to objects.

GET IT????

It's really not that difficult.

TOS, I'd prefer you not respond/reply to any of my posts. You have yet to make ANY valid point...EVER! Thank you in advance for your kind cooperation.

On another thread, Ima said she would fight not to give up her kids. Why does not apply here. Dad agreed to this move years ago. Once he agreed to it, I see his options as somewhat limited.

kkny,

Dad NEVER agreed to this move. He fought it tooth and nail...to the tune of nearly 10K in legal fees. The court system let the kids down then. Hopefully, it can redeem itself this time. We'd love not to have to pursue this legally, but it looks as though Mom is not going to facilitate this move. So, we will do what we have to do....

Again, my post here was just to see if any of the biomoms or stepmoms here had been able to work together during very difficult times.

knky, I am not seeing this situation as "giving up a kid" at all. It is sharing with a loving involved NC parent. A wish the 15 yr old has been expressing for a long time. In spite of the geography the dad has stayed involved as much as possible. I just think the CP should lay guilt on 15 child for wanting more time with other parent. There doesn't seem to be a problem in dads home, her brother did this and did well. An opportunity for parents to work together vs guilt trip for child.

Nicks,

Though BM and I are on wine drinking, chit chatting terms right now, I don't know that I would try to get in the middle of a situation like this were I in your shoes. I think BM and I are doing well because there hasn't been much 'contoversy' and all is hunky dory. We're just entering into a situation right now that could get sticky, and though BM addressed an email to DH and I about it, it's been 2 days without a word after MY response to her. (could be because I didn't give the answer I think she wanted!)

Anyway, back on topic, I think it best that you stay out of this big issue. The little stuff, chat away. But this, with so much riding on it, is better left to the 2 parents. If SD could talk to BM it would be great, but after years of my SD not being able to face her mom and the guilt she dishes out I understand why she can't. A letter may work, but in my case those were just viewed as something we made her write or coached her on.

Sometimes, people just refuse to hear what they don't want to know no matter who tells it or how they are told.

eandhl,
Yes...an opportunity to work together. That's what the referee was getting at, I think. And you are right. There are no issues here. We have healthy, well-adapted kids who are stretching their wings, and making us proud. Her 1/2 brother (my son) travelled abroad for a year after high school, and paid his own way doing it. He is now successfully working full time, and going to college. Her brother, who came here for high school (like she wants to!), was brilliantly successful, and is off to college next month. Our little one will start kindy, hopefully with big sister here, cheering her on in dance and swimming.

justnot-
I really, really appreciate your response. Though BM and I have never been on wine-drinking terms (I'd welcome it, though), we have always been cordial, and invited each other into the other's home, etc. We have had some heavy conversations about both kids in the past, and even about this situation last year. We've always been able to discuss issues. I just wonder if this one is just too painful (mother-daughter, last child at home with her, etc)., and, as you suggest maybe it's just better if I not even try.

Really, my only reasoning for wanting to share these things was to maybe give her some information that maybe she was unaware of. I think she is basing her decision to not honor her daughter's wishes on incomplete information.

But, I think you hit it right on the head. It may be that she wants to remain blissfully ignorant of her daughter's true reasons for wanting to be here. It's easier to say "no" that way, I'd guess.

Thanks again for your very helpful response. It hit home.

So, I emailed Biomom asking her if we could talk. I told her that I was aware of some information (daughter's reasons for wanting this) that I don't think she has (since SD hasn't been able to get that far in a conversation with mom about it). I told her that if she didn't want to talk with me that was ok, but I hoped that we'd be able to continue to work together as we have in the past.

She replied that she really didn't want to talk, but "just email me the info you have."

I replied that there was really to much to share in an email and that the importance of this situation deserved conversation.

She replied that she isn't interested in talking to me right now. "If you would, just email me the information you have that you think I don't have."

That was last Sunday-Tues. Then on Tuesday I ended up in the hospital and eventually had surgery yesterday. Home today, minus one inflamed gall bladder.

I've decided not to respond to her last email. My DH agrees. She wants to remain ignorant.

"On another thread, Ima said she would fight not to give up her kids. Why does not apply here."

It does apply KKNY. A parent should always consider the best interest of their child, not their own interests. The girl in the other post was a troubled 12 year old that mom dropped off with dad. She gave her to dad without a fight and when the child became a very troubled 17 year old, she still allowed the child to live elsewhere instead of taking the responsibility. I think the mother in THAT scenario, is not interested in parenting her child. Of course only one side of the story is known.. but from the information given, that is the perception I got.

In this case, I don't fault the mother for not giving up her child. However, when you have a teenager that has valid points and a strong desire to live with dad, and the only reason mom is saying no is because mom is worried about the impact it will have on mom, then she is not considering her child's best interests. She is being selfish and the child may end up resenting her for it. The reason she won't talk to anyone is because she probably knows deep down that her daughter wants this and she doesn't have any 'good' reason for not allowing it. I can understand the mom's pain, but the dad has been without his daughter all those years. Why is his pain in not having his daughter with him not as important as the mother's pain in her daughter leaving?

I'm pretty sure the child in the other post resents everyone in her life. She probably feels like she's been thrown away and nobody cares enough to stick with her no matter what. Kids want to know that no matter what they do, their parents will love them unconditionally. Most of us parents DO love our kids unconditionally, but some kids aren't that lucky.

"My hope is that by sharing some of SD's issues/reasons with Mom, which I'm certain she hasn't heard, "

I'm curious why you're so sure Mom hasn't heard SD's reasons? From what you've said, it sounds like SD has been very articulate and mature, and if Mom hasn't "heard" her, it's because she's refusing to hear it. And if she's refusing to hear it from SD, she'll certainly refuse to hear it from you, and will resent your interferance. A letter written by your SD may get through to her, but only if she allows it to.

I was going to suggest you put the reasons SD has articulated to you into an email, and I guess you still could. I don't expect it will help, but I also don't think it will hurt much. But from Mom's response, it sounds like she does not want your involvement in this, and I'd defer to her wishes in the matter.

Even though I get along very well with my son's StepMother -- I like her, respect her, appreciate her 'mothering' my son -- and we've gotten to the point where we're in almost total agreement about what's best for DS -- there are still a few areas where I'd say "Butt out". (OK - not 'say' it, because our good relationship is important, but feel it.)

I know you mean well, but I don't think you can help here... Or perhaps, you can help best by just being a soft landing spot.

Wishing you a speedy recovery --

ima~
I agree...with your entire post.

sweeby~
Mom hasn't heard all of SD's reasons, because every time SD has tried to talk to her about it, she gets cut off or guilt-tripped, etc. So, she has never been able to tell Mom, "Look, I just miss my dad. I've never been able to show off for him. I've never had him on the sidelines cheering me on. I've never had him coach me." And in reality, I think that's her BIGGEST motivation for wanting to be here. In addition to her best friends, sibs, family, better school, etc. But really, she just wants to spend the last few years of her childhood with dad. It's not that she want to leave mom. She'll be here for the school years, and there for the summers...just like she's done the past 10 years, only in reverse.

I think if Mom heard that, maybe, just maybe she'd have an "aha" moment. As a mom, I think hearing that would at least make me stop and think for a moment, "is this about me, or about my child?"

I think both parents are to be congratulated here, since it seems that they have gotten the kids to high school, and beyond, without the kids being alienated from one parent or the other.

THe girl in question needs to let her mom know what she is feeling. The only way mom will accept this, outside of a court order, is if the girl herself somehow manages to convince mom this is what she really wants. It may be true that mom is cutting the girl off, or guilting her when the girl tries, but it may also be true that the girl is confused and torn about what she herself wants.

IF the girl is serious, she should write to her mother and lay out her reasons, all of them.

I really wonder why SM in this instance wants to contact BM and try to explain the reasons that a 15 year old girl has given her. A girl that age has to be able to articulate what she wishes, if not in words, then in writing. She has already told the court officers, although , am I correct in assuming no one knows what the girl said to the court officer yet?

SM calling BM will only stir up drama and bad feelings here. This is hard enough on everyone without a war of words. You dont know what SD said to her mother to make her mother think that the girl doesnt really want to move.

I am sure SM loves SD very much and wants to help get this solved before school, but I also wonder why she would want to rub any of this in BM;s face by calling her personally.

Its up to the SD to get it across to her mom, and if she cant , then its up to the court. Why create an adversary where none previously existed?

kathline~
Thanks for your reply.

I think you're right. And writing a letter may be the only way she will be able to fully share her feelings, since discussions never seem to get that far. And it's not Mom thinks SD doesn't want to move here, she knows she does. She doesn't know the reasons, and thus, can easily say "no".

BM and I have always had a cordial "working relationship". I've really stayed out of stuff through this process, thought, since it has been relatively legal/court stuff. One reason I thought it might be a good idea for Mom & I to talk is that everyone else involved in this, is a male. I'm certainly not trying to "rub her face" in anything. And since we've always been able to work through stuff in the past, I thought I'd give it a try now.

As it stands, I will not be talking to Mom about anything, unless she calls me and wants to. I've left the ball in her court.

You're right...I don't want to create an adverserial relationship at this point.

nicksmom-- I'm not entirely sure I'd interpret mom's response as not wanting to know--- that's a possibility, but willing to hear the reasons just not wanting to actually discuss a personal, emotional, and painful topic with you is another possibility. Even not wanting to have the conversations with her daughter could be a matter of avoiding an in-person conversation about a painful topic as easily as not wanting to know the reasons. If your SD really feels her mom hasn't listened to her reasons, maybe SD should email her, or otherwise put it in writing? That would give mom the opportunity to read it, privately, as she is able to deal, but leave you, and for that matter your husband, out of her relationship with her daughter.

quirk~
Yes, I think I will just leave well enough alone. She's made it fairly clear that she'd rather not discuss this issue with me, so that's ok. Her daughter, on the other hand, has learned through this whole ordeal, that her mom is not approachable when it comes to important issues. She made that VERY clear when she embarked on a DEEP discussion with Dad the other night about her curiosities about sex and drugs. That conversation made it even more obvious to Dad that she NEEDS to be here, where she feels like she can be open and honest about her worries, curiosities and temptations.

I discussed (with my DH) the idea of her writing a letter to Mom, and he thought that was a GREAT idea. A court hearing is set for next week, and Mom will be there. It will be presided over by the same referee who has been working with them through this whole process. SD has spoken privately with him, and although we do not know what she said, we can only assume she was honest with him about her desires to be here and why. He commented to my husband that he was very impressed with her level of maturity and her ability to clearly articulate her needs. He also told my husband that he assumed that Mom would likely appeal his ruling. So, based on that, we assume she told him what she's been telling us. DH thinks that a letter from daughter to Mom should wait until after this hearing, and then, only if Mom appeals. I wonder if it makes sense for her to write it now (or soon) and be able to give it to Mom before (or after) the hearing. Maybe that would be enough to help her reconsider an appeal, if that were the route she was going to take.

Thanks for your reply.