so I haven't been in your situation as a step parent(we have full custody) but wanted to at least share my gut reaction with you...
I personally wouldn't give the kids a choice whether they come for the weekend or not...it's Dad's weekend and that is that. I don't think they should have control over it..and you say they are fine when they get to your house..this makes me think others possibly are encouraging you Skids not to want to come to your house for a visit and stay home instead....DH needs to take control back, he has a court order and it should be enforced..they will not be damaged for life because they were made to come visit...if anything when they are adults they will know that Dad wanted them....
When I was around 12 or 13 I can remember calling my dad a lot to ask if I could skip a weekend and I was mostly told no unless there was something really big going on like a school dance or something of that nature...As an adult I look at my Dad and know that he wanted to spend time with me and I really appreciate that when you look around and see so many dead beat dads, I harbor no resentment towards him becasue he made me go for visits...
give hubby your support and help him stand his ground!

I'd also add that if dad lets it go, then it gives their mom the ability to say to them 'see, he doesn't even care if you go or not.' which feeds more power into anything she might already be telling them.

I agree that you need to enforce the court ordered visitation. It may be that their mom and her family are behind them not "wanting" to visit. Do not give the kids the option. On scheduled visitation dates DH needs to go there and get the children. If the mom tries to stand in the way remind her that he has a court order and can call police to make a report if she refuses to allow the kids to go. A judge would look poorly upon a mother who refuses to let her children see their father during his court ordered times.

The weekend of your wedding just go pick them up and do not accept no for an answer.

If dh does not enforce visitation his children will drift further away from him.

I also agree that you should enforce the visitation. The kids, at 12 and 8, are not old enough to have a say in the matter. If you don't enforce the visitation, then BM will continue to badmouth you, your fiance, and your family as a whole, and this will only serve to harm the children.

"f dh does not enforce visitation his children will drift further away from him."

Very true.

BM could also use it against him later if she wanted to reduce the visitation and she could argue that he doesn't even exercise what visitation he already has, yet she can't make plans, just in case he does. Makes him look bad.

PS. She could also use that to increase CS.

How on earth would you force a child, especially a 12 year old, to get into the car?

If they don't want to be in the wedding, they could certainly make it pretty miserable for everyone. Wouldn't you worry about the twelve year old saying "yes" when they get to the part where they ask if anyone has any objections?

if kids don't want to spend time with either parent, I doubt there is much you can do. 12 is old enough to decide if he wants to go anywhere. you can document that you drove there but kids refuse to go, so in case BM complains that you don't take the kids. but if kids would rather spend time with the other parent, as sad as it is, there is very little we can do. i don't know how kids can be forced to spend time with dad and if it is even healthy. if kids only spend time with dad because they MUST, what good does it do to their relationship?

DD never wanted to skip time with dad. if she would, i would try to convince her to go see dad. but if she would resist, i would talk to X that it is his job to build a relationship with his kid so she would want to be with him. it is about relationship. if kids have that with dad they want to see him, but if there is not much going on on emotional level how can you force them?

I think it is totally up to the parents to build relationship with their children. you can't blame the kids.

"DD never wanted to skip time with dad. if she would, i would try to convince her to go see dad."

I agree that this is what a good parent does, but in the OP's situation, BM may be the one encouraging the children to skip time with their dad.

theotherside:
OP says once the kids are there, they are fine. It doesn't sound like they are having difficulty with the children not liking them or being miserable. I'll bet if the kids were miserable because they'd rather be at mom's, then OP and dad would not complain about it. And about forcing a child into the car, yeah you can't 'force' them but dad should be going and at least trying to get them. If he says, 'come on, let's go' and they refuse, then finedreams is right, you can document the attempt but if BM is having them call and tell him not to waste his time and he just gives up, then the kids are going to continue to cancel and it puts a wedge between them and the longer it goes on, the harder it is to break the cycle. It's very sad that you would even make an argument in support of a BM that might be discouraging her kids to see their dad. But then again, I'm not surprised.

Oh please, a BM who MIGHT be discouraging her kids from seeing their dad. And the kids are fine once they are there, it might be that they are resigned to being there, as once they are there, they have no choice. Although when my DD was younger she would call me up pleading to come get her.

If they are truly fine with being there, I would assume if he drives over to pick them up, they wont need to be forced in the car.

TOS was stating the obvious that as children get older, it is more difficult to enforce visitation.

But as a good parent you reinforce the idea of needing to spend time with the other parent ... you don't stand in the door saying "they don't want to go" you don't call the kids and say if you want me to come get you I will ... I am going to miss you so much while you are at other parents house. I am going to be all alone. You tell other parent I said!. Then when they are with the other parent you call 20 times a day to check on them because you are worried about them ... implying the other parents home is unsafe.

When my SC said they wanted to spend more time with hubby he said too bad she's your mom and you are going to spend time with her... when they wanted to spend more time with her she said too bad the court order says I have to bring you home. (big difference)

Have FDH send mom a certified letter of the visitation agreement with his visitation times highlighted ... and if mom doesn't help him with visitation he will take it back to court... (if he can stand up to her).

"you don't stand in the door saying "they don't want to go" you don't call the kids and say if you want me to come get you I will ... I am going to miss you so much while you are at other parents house. I am going to be all alone. You tell other parent I said!. Then when they are with the other parent you call 20 times a day to check on them because you are worried about them ... implying the other parents home is unsafe."

oh, pseudomom, that is all SO familiar. That is exactly how BM is with STBSS. She calls him on the phone and we can often hear her saying "I miss you so much" and then if STBSS doesn't respond the way she wants, she will say again "don't you miss me?"

Just this week, he talked to her, and we heard him ask her if she was crying. (He has been with us for almost a week.) She must have said something about being sad that he was at our home because he said "don't cry, I will be back with you soon."

GRRRRRR.

No wonder the poor kid has such a guilt complex about being with us and having fun with us.

Back to the OP, though...

No, I suppose you cannot forcibly MAKE a child get in the car (at age 12, especially) but I do agree with everyone that is saying the parent needs to at least TRY.

It is NEVER the BM's (or BD's) place to call the other parent and say "the kids don't want to go with you."

and shame on parents that say "you don't have to go if you don't want to..."

Our situation is very similar to yours. Except that i didn't have kids until i met my Dh.
BM has brainswashed stepkids against us. But that's fine. She'll pay the piper when the kids get older. And even now the kids express that they do not understand why their mother is so against our place because they do enjoy it here. There are times when its rough. Now that SD has hit her teens she has the teen attitude and the world revolves her. But the attitude extends to her household and i think her mother has it worse cause she has full custody. And i wouldn't be surprised if she called my DH soon for assistance with her attitude.
Suffice it to say, make a back up plan for your wedding incase they do not show. i did this for my wedding.
My Stepkids do not come as often as well. They're 13 and 10 and i do not believe and my husband doesn't believe in forcing them. He has always had that open policy. And he has had many talks. He tells his kids, if you refuse to come for whatever reason they're old enough to do so but be very clear that it is not because i do not want you or that maria doesn't want you. The door is open , you chose not to come and step through it. So we do not want to hear BS that we do nto love you or want you. The decision is yours and so will the consequences for that decision.
My Dh will not force them. Why on earth would you force a child to come if they do not want. Plus you try to force a 13 or 10 year old in the car. I'm sure that would go well! To top it off if you force them they will be miserable
And as far as drifting away from dad? If biomom has poisoned them they is not much your DHand you can do. Do what my DH does, call persistantly to show them. Keep asking if they are comign for weekends, and you knwo there is email now too and there is snail mail. Nothing is stopping your DH from having other alternatives of communication and bonding. Just keep showing the kids you love them and no matter how much poison they get from mom, actions speak volume. Letting the kids make their decisions at their age is also a good excersise on responsibility. Just make sure you tell them that you love them and you are thinking of them.
Bm would constantly call to say...ss doesn't want ot come. My DH would say , put him on the phone and i will speak to him. I wont hear it from you. You have your own agenda and if my son tells me other wise i'm coming to pick him up!

LoveHadley,

What are you and your fdh doing listening in on phone calls?

LH do not defend yourself against that remark ... she's just looking for a fight to prove her "theory" SM's are evil man stealing wh0re$ whose main objective in life is to get rid of the kids.

lol, you don't have to listen in to hear a child saying "don't cry mommy" or "yes I miss you too" and it doesn't take much of an imagination to figure out when a child goes from happy go lucky to sad. I've lost count of how many times my SD comes out of her room with her eyes red and puffy. She'll usually tell me what mom said, and I don't have to ask or listen in. Sometimes, she'll come sit by me or DH while she's talking. and her mom talks loud enough that everything she says can be heard if SD is sitting next to you.

Ha, the funniest/saddest time was just after DH told BM how SD got sick for eating the ice cream for breakfast... SD was talking to her mom and her side of it was plain as day.... SD said "but I DIDN'T have cereal for breakfast" pause... "no I didn't!" longer pause "I did NOT have cereal!!!" and she was by that point, yelling it loud enough for me to hear from the other room. When she came to give me the phone back, she had been crying and she made a point of telling me that she had eaten the ice cream AFTER she ate cereal. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HER MOM SAID TO HER...

"What are you and your fdh doing listening in on phone calls?"

Fiance has a blackberry phone and you can ALWAYS hear the person on the other end.

We don't LISTEN IN on calls. Actually, BM NEVER Sometimes we hear the calls, sometimes not. Sometimes STBSS will walk away with the phone, other times he will sit right there and talk. Sometimes we are all in the car when BM calls to say goodnight.

It's not hard to hear what she's saying, OR to get the gist of it from STBSS's end.

(Sorry pseudomom, I had to respond...these two women just BLOW MY MIND.)

Oops--I meant to add in there that BM never talks to her son on our land line. It is always done with fiance's cell.

Its ok .... its just been a long debated battle with the BM crew .... guess their hearing is going in their old age can't hear anything kids say in the house....

See my SD makes it a point to yell when she wants us to hear what she is saying to her mother on the phone and other times she is whispering so I can hear her mother yelling on the other end of the phone I can't hear you speak up...

**She calls him on the phone and we can often hear her saying "I miss you so much" and then if STBSS doesn't respond the way she wants, she will say again "don't you miss me?"

Just this week, he talked to her, and we heard him ask her if she was crying. (He has been with us for almost a week.) She must have said something about being sad that he was at our home because he said "don't cry, I will be back with you soon."**

SD's mom was ALWAYS doing this (she's cut back now that she's married) and it drives me up a wall! Let's just try to make the child feel as guilty as possible. Let's make our issues their issues so that instead of worrying about what to play at recess they worry about how lonely mommy is without them because mommy's has nothing else in her world but you. She would make it sound like she did nothing but pine for SD when I would run into her out on dates . . . but those weren't talked about to SD until later when she needed a 'girlfriend' to confide in.
It got to the point that when we would call SD while on weekends with her mom and not whine and complain that she would ask 'don't you miss me?" Oh course we do - but we don't have to say it 100 times as a guilt trip. Once is enough to let you know we are thinking of you.

Pet peeve 1251 on my growing list . . . .

My kids have periodically decided they didn't want to go out to dinner with their father, generally because he had yelled at them in public for some infraction or other. Typically after a few weeks, or sometimes longer, he will finally apologize. There is no good reason to blame the mother every time the kids don't want to go with their father.

I think that when children do not want to spend time with parent, grandparents, uncles, siblings, it could simply indicate the following: they do not like company of those people, don't enjoy it, don't want it, don't need it etc

They might have nothing in common wiht the other parent, might have no emotional bond etc I think that the parent, who kids do not want to spend time with, have to work harder on building those bonds and creating a relationship so kids want to come and visit.

It is very easy to blame kids or exspouses if kids do not want to be wiht YOU. But the bottom line is: YOU (hypothetically) are the one they don't want to see, so what are you doing to make sure kids (not babies but kids of age who can make decisions) do want to see you? i mean what do you do besides blaming the other parent (much easier than looking at yourself)?

I heard of plenty fathers whose children do not want to see them as much. the reason is pretty simple: those fathers have no real relationship with kids.

"There is no good reason to blame the mother every time the kids don't want to go with their father."

So, you'd agree that if my SD said I don't want to go to my mom's this weekend, and mom has big plans to do something with her and gets upset when she says she doesn't want to go, then oh well, it's not dad's fault and he should support her decision to not go to her mom's, even if mom wants to see her? It's up to SD and mom is out of luck, eh?

Ima, FD clearly said, as you quoted EVERY TIME. Which means just what is said.

In that case it is up to the mother to convince her daughter to come - which shouldn't be too hard if she has "big plans." Presumably if her daughter didn't want to go because her mother had embarrassed her by yelling at her in public, she would have to sense to apologize. It is not, however, acceptable to cancel at the last minute - either the parent or the child - except in an emergency.

"Ima, FD clearly said, as you quoted EVERY TIME. Which means just what is said."

What are you babbling about??? I only addressed TOS. I didn't say anything to FD.

"In that case it is up to the mother to convince her daughter to come - which shouldn't be too hard if she has "big plans." Presumably if her daughter didn't want to go because her mother had embarrassed her by yelling at her in public, she would have to sense to apologize. It is not, however, acceptable to cancel at the last minute - either the parent or the child - except in an emergency."

Agreed. The father in OP's situation should be allowed to try to convince his children to come see him. He has big plans (a wedding) and without knowing them, nobody can say how the kids feel about it. If they resent dad getting married, then of course they'd refuse to go. But, if mom has guilted them into declining, then he should try to convince them how important it is for them to be there.

It really isn't acceptable to cancel at all (not just last minute) unless something more important (emergency) were to come up. If the kid has a championship or activity they are really looking forward to, dad should understand. If they have no plans, then they should be encouraged to spend time with the other parent. The parent should only cancel if they might lose their job or some other major reason, not because they just don't feel like it or they have a date or some stupid reason that is going to make their child feel unimportant. Showing our children they are a priority will teach them how to prioritize their own lives. (and I kinda think that is what finedreams is saying and I agree. If the parent doesn't show them they are their priority, then eventually, the child will decide on his/her own that the parent isn't a priority either) [makes me think of that song: cat's in the cradle]

Fathers dont have real relationship with their kids, when biomom poisons them and purposely sets up parties and events on his weekends so the kids are forced to choose what they want. And what do yoiu think the kid will pick? The fun time of course cause daddy is bad according to mom. GET REAL! In those situations where the kids are 100% custody with biomom and biomom is actively practicing parental alienation you are darn right he wont have a real relationship with his kids and its not his fault. Its 100% mom fault and she better have a damn good reason when she finally shows her face to GOD to say why she did it to her kids! And dont tell me it was done out of love.
What a general copout if i have ever heard in my life.
You cannot force anyone to see anyone if they do not want. And its not asimple reason as you spelled out. That is total BS. There are many factors kids to not want to see their father or mother. And alot of the times the these kids are psychologically ripped from the divorce itself. So how can they make a concrete decision at a young age? They can't.
Andyou can bet your bottom dollar they are being influenced. OF course the other parent doensnt' see the damage eh?
Kids growing up , especially in their teens do not want to see their fahter or mother cause its not cool. WHy would you hang with yoru parents...ewwwww... They want their friends, they want to be cool, they want to have fun. Its not fun to be with yoru parents..lol...
I didn't see my fahter either and didn't want to. Not because i didn't love him. But because i had other priorities in my life. Like go see a movie with friends, or talk onthe phone or hang with my boyfriend.

ima, if your SD never or rarely wanted to see her mom it would be unwise to always blame your DH for that. maybe if SD never wants to see mom (hypotheticall situation), it is simply because she is not that close to her, does not enjoy her company and would rather be with dad.

your DH would have to encourage SD to go see mom but he cannot be blamed every time SD does not want to see mom. I doubt if SD rarely wanted to see her mom you would want your DH to be blamed for that EVRY TIME it happens.

I bet you would suspect that SD does not want to see mom because of other reasons.

so why would that be different when kids do not want to see their dads? same goes if kids do not want to see dad, mom cannot be blamed every time.

organic maria if my DD never wanted to see her father, I really would not want to be blamed for that. I would probably address it wiht my X. It would be up to him to create relationship with his child, not up to me. Also I would start wondering if there is somehting bad going on such as abuse or maybe she is neglected while there. I do not know any legitimate reason when kids do not want to see their parents. I cannot think of any. yes, ocassionally something else come with friends or some events take place. But it is only occasional.

yes if events are planned such as for example tickets are purchased, theen kids should go wiht their parent no matter if they want or not. I agree wiht TOS, it is wrong to cancel. the parent has all the rights to be upset. But if kids refuse to go with dad how is that mom's fault? with babies and toddlers yes. but OP's SSs are 12 and 8. at age 12 kids are capable to pick up the phone and tell their dad that they want to see him.

"ima, if your SD never or rarely wanted to see her mom it would be unwise to always blame your DH for that."

IF my DH were to tell SD that she doesn't have to go with mom if she doesn't want to (even though it's court ordered) before taking the time to find out why and try to see if there is a good reason. IF my Dh were to be the one to call BM and say SD doesn't want to come so don't bother coming to pick her up, without letting her hear it from SD and having a chance to convince her daughter to go, then YES it would be DH's fault his daughter isn't going with her mom.

It may not be DH's fault that SD might be upset with her mom, but if he does ANYTHING to influence SD's feelings for her mom, then he is partly to blame. If he tells his daughter that she should go spend time with her mom and she is mad at mom and refuses, then no, it's not DH's fault. He's done all he can. I agree you can't FORCE a kid to go with their parent, but both parents should encourage the kids to have a good time with the other parent, not make them feel guilty for it if they do.

In OP's situation, the dad should at least show up and try to get his kids. At least the kids will know that he is trying. If their mom is in any way discouraging them from going to dad, then she is in the wrong. It sounds from what has been said, that she is discouraging the kids from going to dad and she should be encouraging them. (and that may be the case as OP or dad doesn't know for sure what BM is telling the kids, anymore than we do) When you have a court order, the parent should be telling the kids they HAVE to go. If dad wanted to, he could drag mom back into court for contempt. Depending on the Judge, they may or may not do anything at the ages of these kids, but she IS violating a court order if she doesn't do everything she can to get the kids to go.

Why doesn't the father just ASK the kids why they don't want to go? They apparently do see him at least occasionally, so he could ask then, in private.