Hi Harper:

I am sorry for your loss.

In my state, if a person is married, they must name their spouse as the beneficiary for pension plans. Perhaps you may wish to call his employer (or have your mother call) and see what you can find out with respect to the beneficiary.

It would appear that there was some question on what caused your stepfather's death since an autopsy was performed. Did the autopsy determine the cause of death?

Are his brothers possibily interested in knowing specifics because of the potential of an inherited disease or disorder?

Good luck to you,
June

I'm sorry for your loss. Like June says, your mother probably needs to be making some calls. Although, an autopsy is sometimes a standard law in some areas unless the death is foreseeable. My dad was terminal so we did not have to wait for an autopsy. If it had been unexpected, we would have. There is also something to the question of a disease or disorder which his brothers could be looking for. If there is a life insurance policy, if there name is on it, there is likely nothing you can do. When my dad died, the insurance company wanted a copy of the death certificate which states the cause of death on it.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with so much family junk at a time like this. I know it is difficult. You and your family are in my prayers.

I'm sorry for your loss. I'm glad you were so good to your SDad.
You can google, "ask a lawyer" & join the forum & get your legal rights. If your mom is still legally married to him, then it would seem to me she will have the say in everything. I also think an autopsy is public info. Not positive, but I remember someone telling me that.
Also, your Mom would have had to sign a paper if your Dad put someone other than his wife as the beneficiary. So she might be able to tell you something. I know w/ my DH's life insurance in FL & WA asked for this.
Let me know if you need the exact web address for legal advice. They answer your legal questions & refer you on if they don't have the answers.

Did he give any indication that he didn't want to be cremated?

I don't have any parents left, but if someone had insisted on having a wake and on not cremating either of their bodies, I wouldn't have contributed a penny, either, and I was close to my parents.

"but he made no indication of that being his wish.". TOS, the OP stated no indication of a wish to be cremated.

That is what I am asking. Did he make any indication one way or the other? It's not like burial is the default position, and cremation is only an option if specifically requested. IMO, cremation is the default, and people should only be buried if they specifically request it.

I don't believe step children have any "rights" in the way you are speaking. However, if he listed you as the beneficiary of his pension (or anything else) you have legal rights there. As far as I know, life insurance, pensions, etc., must be left to spouses (or undesignated, which means it goes by intestate succession) unless the spouse signs a waiver. But it doesn't matter at this point because whatever is designated has already been done and there is no changing it. Did he have a will? Who did he designate as a beneficiary on retirement and life insurance accounts? If no one is listed then state law determines who it goes to, with the bulk likely going to your mother as the legal spouse.

Cremation vs. burial is tricky. From what you wrote, it sounds like he was silent on his wishes - either way. In that case, it was nice of his brothers to let you and your sister make the decision (although legally it was all for your mother to decide). But then it is your responsibility to pay for it since it is what you wanted. Many people (myself included) find burial (and embalming) to be gruesome. I'd rather be reduced to ashes than preserved like a bottled fetal pig and laid in a casket. I don't consider cremation "forgetting" about someone. It is far more natural than modern burial.

I personally would consider burial the default option, as traditionally in American society burial has been the norm up to recent times. In addition, cremation is final. Someone who has been buried can still be cremated if it is discovered after the fact that they preferred cremation, but once a body has been cremated there's no turning back. You also lose the chance for further lab samples in the case of a suspicious death, which is why many murdering spouses opt for cremating their victim.
My mother wished to be cremated, and had the choice been left up to me I would have buried her, but it wasn't, so she was cremated and her ashes scattered at sea, as per her stated wishes. My personal wish is to be buried in a cardboard box, unembalmed.

Harper, I'm so sorry you've lost your dad.

I'd ignore the brothers;
they didn't have a relationship with your dad, & they aren't the next of kin.

Your mother is next of kin, & whatever needs to be done should be done at her request or with her permission.

If she chose burial, or allowed the children to choose, that's that, no questions, no argument, end of discussion, period.

wishing you the best,

sylvia

ps: Colleen, I'm with you. I've told my brother he's to wrap me in a sheet or, if one is available, an old quilt, & bury me near the creek on his acreage so I can return to the circle of life asap...

I would hope that the OP's stepfather died of natural causes. If not, I am sure the autopsy results would be public record.

IMO, too many people, often elderly widows and others who can ill afford it, waste their life savings on expensive burials and funerals. I think it is a huge racket. And after Sue36's post, I am never going to get that fetal pig visual out of my head.

tos, why is it cremation a default? i personally do not know anyone who cremated their family members. and I am not only talking about my culture and religion, i am talking about outside my culture as well. it seems the other way around, burial is default and cremation is upon special request. I would not allow anyone to cremate my parents even if they don't leave any will about it.
i also have hard time saying that brothers are not family, yes, they are.

I consider it the default. I know lots of people who were cremated, including my parents. I'm with Sue36 on this one - I think the only think more gruesome than burial is having an open casket. I also don't understand why anyone would want to take up all that real estate, or why anyone would want to spend all that money on someone who was too dead to enjoy it. When I die I want to be cremated and have my ashes sprinkled on some cow pasture.

I am very sorry for your loss. Losing someone you love is always hard.
You have no 'rights' as stepkids BUT, he was still legally married to your mom and he legally left it in writing that the pensions goes to you. His brothers can challenge this but i do not think they will win in court. He never divorced your mother, therefore they have no legal stand. Plus you can prove to the courts that their only intention is for money. They did not pay for their brothers funeral or participate in any way. They didn't want the death certificate , only the coronary report. They've set a really bad precedant for themselves. So even if they challenge you , i find it hard to believe they'll have much of a leg to stand on.
Its actually quite disgusting that they only ask for the report and nothing else!But that is family for you when any money is involved eh?

TOS, while I understand your perspective about cremation (people have varied ideas about death and burial, and none are right or wrong), perhaps that last comment was a bit of a coarse thing to say in a thread started by someone who has just lost a loved one.

tos, I agree with ceph, this is a bit harsh. "too dead to enjoy it". who talks about enjoying? "money". And caskets don't have to be expensive.

Did someone say brothers weren't family or weren't related to deceased?

I said they had not had a relationship with their brother & that they were not next of kin.

OP made mention of just telling the brothers that this was a family matter but went on further to say that technically they are family... perhaps that is where that came from.

I understand the OP's feelings completely. My mother's family (well most of it) are not nice people (to put it mildly) I have seen my mom's so called (and I use the term oh so lightly) mother maybe twice in my entire life. If any person in her family showed up upon her death and thought that they could tell me what was going to happen with my mother or start requesting and/or demanding anything of hers (including an autopsy report) I would tell them to rot in hell first. In op's case it is a little trickier because she is sd but mom was still married to sdad so really she has all the power. I would STRONGLY suggest that mom find out exactly what dad laid out as far as his pension goes and make sure it happens. And, as far as the autopsy report goes...why would they want that ? It makes little sense for people who didnt care to be apart of his life in life to want something like that. But, in the interest of letting bygones be bygones... I would probably make a copy and give them the copy. But, that is about the only thing I would do for them.

Do not underestimate what "family" will do to appease their own selfishness especially when there is a death. In their later years of life... my great uncle (who I still consider to be one of the greatest people I have ever known in my life) died suddenly of a heart attack... his wife (my great aunt and one of the greatest woman I have ever known) was at that point deep into alzheimers and mostly confined to the nursing home portion of one of this upscale progressive retirement community. Before, my mother and us found out he was even dead my mother's family had ransacked his entire apartment and took everything... Luckily, my great uncle was a smart man and knew my mothers family well and had all of his assets well protected from greedy hands and held in trust or whatever for all of my aunts care (because the next thing my mothers family tried to do was move her to some other facility a poor poor facility that was cheaper... they couldnt do that either thanks to him) This man who absolutely deserved a funeral or whatever to have all the people he touched in his life to come and pay their respects and say their goodbyes... was cremated and stuck in a cemetary that took some time and arguing to find out where it even was... As it turned out my mom was actually named the executer or whatever so my family also played some fraud games to get what did happen done before we even knew about it... In the end though my aunt was cared for in an excellent facility and when she finally passed the money went to my mom... It will not replace all of the wonderful belongings and pictures that are now thrown away (they didnt even bother to keep them) but at least my aunt was cared for in the way she deserved.

Anyways... my point is be careful and step lightly. Have your mother look into what he took care of doing about his finances and the sooner the better... you never know what they are capable of.

I think the most likely reason for wanting a copy of the autopsy report would be, as earlier posters pointed out, that they are concerned about the possibility of a genetic component in whatever caused his death.

sylvia, brothers didnot have a relationship according to OP, but it could be subjective. some people don't spend much time together or don't talk much but ate still close. She said they barely spoke to him, so what. I love my brother dearly and vice versa but he barely speaks to anyone including me. I know other siblings speak to each other every few days, we certainly not. but we do have a relationship no less than those people who talk daily. we are emotionally very close and I don't think anyone can be a judge of it. so who is to detrmine what relationship his brothers had with him?

In fact brothers could argue that their brother's wife was not in a relationship with him. They split, did not live together they just did not go through divorce, so why does she have to get anything? I agree that SDs deserve the money if he intended to give it to them, but brothers could deserve it just as well. Didn't he leave a will or benficiaries?

FD,

In NY, if you are legally married, as long as you do not have a legal seperation (term of art, must be approved by court), you have right to inherit as a spouse. Which means if no will, spouse gets all. If will and no prenup, spouse gets 1/3. Rest can be divided by will.

I think people should enjoy their old age and do what they want to do to make their last years enjoyable, they should leave nothing to anyone. I want nothing from my parents, I want them to stay healthy as long as possible and not to worry about leaving us anything. In fact I want them to spend everything they have, yeah, not like they have much.

Tos
" think the only think more gruesome than burial is having an open casket."

You know in some cultures like mine we have open caskets all the time. Its part of our religion and in fact its against our religion to cremate. That to us is a dessicration to the body. We didn't come into this world burning and we wont go out burning either. My husbands family is anglican and they practice cremation. Which i personal think is disgusting and insulting. But this is how i was raised and to each his own.
My family all die in open caskets and in greece the body is actually exumed and the bones are washed in holy wine and placed in a tomb with the rest of the family. We respect our dead and this is how WE do it. You may find open casket gruesoem because you were taught this way. But these stepdaughters fount it insulting and disgraceful to be burnt and tossed. Liek many other cultures, people prefer to be buried than burnt.
Either way, they girls cna give the report to the brothers. But they shouldn't feel threatened. The brothers dont have a leg to stand in court legally.
p.s I will have an open casket too. As gruesoem as you think it is....lol...
STare death face on. We are not immortal. There is nothing gruesome in death that is natural

I so agree with that finedreams.

"these stepdaughters fount it insulting and disgraceful to be burnt and tossed"

& tos read the same thing you & I read, & it told her how she could criticize & insult.

passive-aggressive.

trollish.

Fd, I agree -- I wish my widowed mother would spend more, and she finally accepts money from her children. Of her 3 children, one lives near her and helps out and visits her more. If she left everything to him, it wouldnt bother me. That being said, if she did remarry (unlikely -- she likes her independence,etc. and doesnt want to be a "nurse and a purse") and left everything to a spouse I would be resentful.

"I think the most likely reason for wanting a copy of the autopsy report would be, as earlier posters pointed out, that they are concerned about the possibility of a genetic component in whatever caused his death."

That very well could be ...but in my thinking that could be answered with a simple question.. "was there a genetic component in whatever caused his death?" Wanting the actual results seems suspicious to me... as if they are trying to see or claim that someone did something to him. But, I will freely admit that I have had poor experiances with "family" relations that want to show up and stake claim on things that were never meant to be for them and all of a sudden for the first time ever want to play the bleeding heart oh poor me my family member died we need money!!!

And, I agree I could care less about money coming my way when someone dies... I would really much rather they enjoyed their life and spent every last dime if that is what they so choose.... to this day (although I am very happy that those money grubbing ingrates didnt get their hands on one dime of my aunt and uncles money) I am far more upset that their pictures, instruments (my uncle was a sax player) and valuables collected from all of the places they travelled to are gone forever.

"That being said, if she did remarry (unlikely -- she likes her independence,etc. and doesnt want to be a "nurse and a purse") and left everything to a spouse I would be resentful."

Why would you be resentful? If you agree with FD that said "I think people should enjoy their old age and do what they want to do to make their last years enjoyable,". If she remarried and her husband brought joy to her last days, isn't it enough to know she was happy up until the end? My Aunt & Uncle were married for 49 years and my Aunt passed away last year. My Uncle began dating earlier this year and just got engaged. He has two children. A daughter that has been married for 30 years and a 44 year old son that has a drug habit. He's a civil engineer and still works because he enjoys it. He makes very good money and has assets, including his home and some land. I hope he spends all he has, having the time of his life with his new wife and if he leaves what's left to her when he goes, she will have deserved it for bringing him joy to his life. It's up to him if he feels his grown kids deserve anything.

If my dad goes before my stepmom, everything will be in a trust for her care. All of his kids are grown and self sufficient, so why should grown children care what their parents do with their own money?

If anyone has a reason to feel resentful in the situation you describe, it would be the brother that is helping her out, especially if he takes care of her. I don't see why you would care what she did, unless she were being taken advantage of by a scam artist. But, if she found someone that made her last days happy???

Organic_Maria,
I assume you are Greek? The Greek Orthodox church permits cremation.

Embalming is far more a "desecration" than burning. Burning is something that exists in nature. Draining someone of their body fluids, plugging their anus, filling them with embalming fluid, and applying makeup are definitely not natural.

I was raised Catholic, I have no issue with an open casket pre se. It's what they do to the body to make it look decent for the open casket that I have an issue with.

Additionally, the OP wrote, "...or try to take the little money from his pention that he made very clear was intended for my sister and I..."
She doesn't say the money was left to the OP and her sister, she says her SF made it clear. Unless it is IN WRITING it isn't clear enough based on the law.

Thank you sue for that delightful description of the embalming process. Just what I want to read as I am (was) eating breakfast...

we keep casket closed, i don't see open casket as horrible though, we just prefer not to. But cremation is prohibited by our law. Plus it has too much of a negative connotation. i could not imagine burning my grandparents after I lost my greatgrandparents and other many family members in gas cameras or burned alive. bad association with any kind of burning of anybody. my grandmother was haunted her whole life of how her parents died, i would not willingly put her in an oven when she passed.

I think the polite thing to do is to start another thread if you want to continue where this thread is headed .... really don't think OP wants to know the details of embalming none of this is answering her question(s).

Sorry for your loss.

My father died when I was young. I am grateful for open casket, otherwise I think I would always be hoping he would come back.

kkny, yes, it makes sense because you get to see the loved one the last time. we do open it for the family, it is closed when everyone is there.

I think open vs. close casket; creamtion vs. burial; funeral vs. no funeral, etc. is entirely up to the wishes of the person who passes (provding, hopefully, that they made wishes known). Whatever they would want, I would honor.

(As for me, I haven't decided yet. Many ways to look at it, and many factors to consider, including expense and nature of death...)

I agree that cremation versus burial etc. should ultimately be up to the person, but I think it was unreasonable for the OP to expect the brothers to pay anything for a burial when they preferred cremation. I also got the impression that she felt the brothers were insensitive because they preferred cremation.

Cremation is very common - about a third in the U.S., 70% in Britain, and almost 100% in Japan, for example.

harper,

I'm sorry for your loss. I wouldn't blame you if you stopped reading this thread when it became poisoned with insensitive comments from a heartless troll. But, if you are still reading, you should take your mom and consult an attorney to get advice on what yours and your mom's rights are. Good luck.

harper1227: "...i only cared that he deserved more than to be burned and forgotten about..."

If the OP is going to insult the concept of cremation (anothe poster also called it a desecration and disgusting) then I think I am entitled to educate her a little about (unspoken) truth of traditional embalming with burial. Do people think funeral directors use pixie dust to make people look like that? Before people insult cremation (and effectively those that choose it) as "forgetting" about someone or a desecration, they should know of what they speak.

I feel badly for the OP, she lost someone she loved. But she wants it her way and then wants someone else to pay for it. Nice if you can get it, but generally not the way the world works.

No, you're not "entitled" to seize the opportunity, on a very personal thread, to "educate" someone about their own personal decisions, using graphic & inflammatory words to do so.

OP did not start a debate about funeral practices in general.

She said she loved her stepfather & she had an emotional response to the way his final arrangements were handled.

normal, healthy, & *personal*.

Since her stepfather's brothers didn't want to contribute...
they didn't.

OP & her mother made arrangements & carried them out.

Her questions were about the brothers' rights to autopsy results & pensions; she did *not* solicit opinions about funeral arrangements.

If you have some vested interest in defending cremation, please feel free to post your own thread.

maybe on Hot Topics on the gardenweb side of the forums.

You are so right on there Sylvia!!!

I agree, Sylvia.

After reading the post from "super troll", I am pretty sick, not only because of her unbelievable nastiness directed at a person who just lost someone she loved, but also because she claims to have been raised Catholic.

Something must have gone terribly amuk in her religious upbringing. I just hope she doesn't come back and claim to be a "practicing" Catholic, because if she is, she should immediately go to confession.

Cremation is permitted in the church but its not a common practice and actually it is frawned upon.
In greece the bodies were never embalmed. You are right about that being a dessicration but canadian law will not permit a person to be buried without embalment. Therefore we have no choice in that manner. And family will not cremate. Its an insult to be burnt.
In greece they do not embalm. The body is washed and many many flowers are place inthe coffin above the coffin around the coffin to mask the smell of decay. The body is buried the same day within hours for obvious reasons.
And depending if you are part of the 'old' calendar or 'new' calendar, cremation will not be performed unless its specifically asked for and you attain permission from the priest of the church.
As for cremation i do personally find it insulting and disgusting BUt this is because i was raised in having burials as open caskets.
But my husbands family cremates. And after seeing a few funeral i've become acustom to it and actually find it less tense than a greek funeral. I'm sure when my husband finally participates in a greek orthodox funeral he will be disgusted himself and shocked.
There is nothign wrong in stating that something disgusts you. Lol..the fact is that you still have to respect someones wishes. If they want to be cremated . that is their wish. If they want a closed casket and buried this is their wish. That is all
I do not have to be educated. I am educated with 2 degrees in biology and work for cancer research. I worked with many cultures and many beliefs that i do not agree but i wont bash someoen about. If you think i came across liek this then its disappointing but its your views.
THese SD wanting for their stepdad to be buried. Not cremated. He didn't state otherwise and since his family has estranged him and considering these girls were dishign out the cash as well i think they are entitled to bury their loved one the way they see fit.
They just feel threatened and disgusted why their stepdad's brothers who wanted nothing to do with him while he was living would have the balls to ask for a death report. Andif it was for genetice purposes than they should state it but its reason is obvious and its for money. AND THAT IS DISGUSTING! DISRESPECTFUL.

Yes, I am Catholic. Fully confirmed. The Catholic church does not forbid cremation. In fact, they consider the body to be present if the ashes are in the church, so it is a funeral rather than a memorial service. You should learn the aspects of a religion before you tell someone their religious upbringing is lacking. There is nothing anti-Catholic about cremation.

Maria, My grandfather was Greek (moved to the U.S. as a teenager). He was cremated, as was his wish (as was my mother, but her funeral was in a Catholic church). There are many people in my family that are Greek Orthodox and, I admit, this is the first time I have ever heard of the church having any type of issue with cremation. Maybe it varies regionally? Your tradition (as practiced in Greece) sounds very thoughtful.
...
I don't consider the way the body is cared for (burial, cremation, wake, etc.) after death to be determinative of whether someone was "forgotten". Keeping a person present in your daily life is the greatest tribute. My mother is gone. If she were buried in a cemetary and I visited I would not be visiting her. I believe she is everyhere with me, at all time.

I felt insulted by what the OP wrote and lashed out, I admit. To assume that people that are cremated are basically being tossed aside, forgotten, is insulting the people who have selected this option for their loved one (or, in my case, carried out the person's wishes).

My whole family is religious...lol..a long line of priests, nuns and bishops.
I never said anyone was lacking. I said they were brought up different and there is nothign wrong with it.Its the persons wishes that should be respected.
It does change region to region cause i was completely taken aback when i heard the body is dug up after a year or two and then washed with holy wine. I dont know if i would be comfortable washign my moms bones but after a thought i guess it can be seen as a loving thing to do.? not sure. and i do not think the canadian government would allow such a thing.
In this case the Sd felt that burning was a way to forget.
I have friends who keep their grandfathers urn in the living room. That was a shock and then i found it comforting that a loved one is still close. We all have different definitions of death, of life after death and to each their own.
My mother passed away when i was 11 years old of cancer. But even though she is buried. I still feel she is watchign me....and helping me when i need help. I visit my mothers grave but not often because i too feel that she is not there. But i'll visit on mothers day. I think as a place of focus but i know she is with me everyday.

organic_maria,
I think sue36 was responding to june0000's statement,

"Something must have gone terribly amuk in her religious upbringing."

when she said,

"You should learn the aspects of a religion before you tell someone their religious upbringing is lacking."

I don't think that was in response to your post.

My parents died when I was in my twenties, and both of them were cremated. In no way were they forgotten.

Catholic here, too. Born, baptized and confirmed. '

Cremation was banned by the Catholic Church until 1963. It was expressly forbidden until that time.

In 1963 when the ban was lifted, Catholics were allowed cremation in certain circumstances only and funeral services were to be held with the body and cremation took place afterward. The reason for this is the belief that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that resurrection would occur.

It was 1997 when the Vatican allowed for cremated remains to be brought into the church for services before burial. Tbe church does still prefer to have the body present during the service with cremation taking place after the service.

There are still Catholics who do not want to be cremated because of the old belief that they will not be resurrected.

Maria, tos is correct. The only part of my post directed to you was the part after your name and before the ...
I am sorry you lost your mother so young. I was in my early 30s, I can't imagine being 11.

I'm so sorry for your loss :0(

Harper1227, I am so sorry for your loss. When we lose someone we love, the title of the relationship matters less than the times spent together! I hope you cherish all your wonderful memories with your stepfather.