Oh Doodle...WOW is all I can say.

Please keep us posted about J's meeting with the lawyer. I hope everything will be quick and easy for you guys to get full custody and supervised visitation. Good lord---I don't know HOW it couldn't be! If you guys have ANY trouble, I think I will completely lose faith in the family court system!

Love-

That would make two of us.

Doodle - It amazes me how you can stay so sane and level-headed amid such chaos. Hats off to you! And don't waver, because you're right.

Sweeby-

You are such an unbiased person s that means alot coming from you. We arn't cold hearted people so it's hard but we both agree and stand firm that it is whats best for the girls.

The "sane" thing is questionable and I have had to go to mom's a few times for a break away from the nuttiness but I am trying my best to at least APPEAR calm for the girls sake.

WOW..you all have a slam dunk for full custody and supervised visits.....You are doing the right thing about no contact and I think a judge will back you up on it 100%...people don't kill themselves or try to kill themselves because of other people, or their actions (re:no visitation w the kids till treatment)..there was something wrong inside of them to begin with, completely out of your control..............
You can drive/go to work etc... on Lithium..my sister was in it for a while before she killed herself (she hung herself in January)....it is more of a mood stabalizer than anything, I think many react differently to it, but my sister was just never herself after taking it, infact she was much more miserable, and felt very out of control while on it......If I remember right BM has a diagnosis of bipolar just like my sister did...I have done a lot of research to try to understand this since my sisters death, (wish I had done it before she died) but none the less some important things I learned about bipolar is that someone with it is 20times more likely to commit suicide, and an important time to REALLY watch the person is right after they get out of the hospital, whenever there is a stressful situation (even like change of job etc..) and when they first start taking certain medicines to help with the bipolar or stop taking their meds....you may pass that on to her family, I wish someone had explained that to our family when my sister was released from the hospital......any how...I would under no circumstances allow the girls to be with her alone for one minute...you never know if she would decide to try take them with her....
The girls are so very lucky to have you all!

I have a friend on lithium...no problem driving. Lithiums a salt for chemical brain imbalance.
Those girls are soooo lucky to have you and J looking after their well being. and to protect them.
And i agree with fiveinall..never..never let her see those girls alone. That is all i hear in teh news today...parents killing themselves along with their kids. Its awful.

Good Night! What a mess. It sounds like she might take care of herself before you make it to the Judge. It sounds like your doing all you can. Your not being mean or uncaring. Keeping your eye on the people who need to be careful and trying to keep the train wreck off them. I am so sorry you have to deal this mess.

If the doctors are giving her lithium, it may be that her bizarre behavior is the result of bi-polar disorder, a physical problem, not a character/bad decisions/pharmeceutical problem.

The pharmaceuticals may be her attempt at stabilizing her moods.

(You might read "Manic"; it's a hair-raising book by a bi-polar woman, & it'll give you tremendous insight.)

so the docs may be able to help her turn around.

saying a little prayer/sending up a good thought for this poor woman whose very brain seems to have betrayed her... & for her children, & for Doodle & her hubs.

Fiveinall-

Yes she is manic depressive and bi polar....scary stuff. BM's mother would like to keep an eye on her but BM causes so much drama when she is home her and her husband to fight horribly. Bm's mom is too old for a divorce and her husband is all she has. Niether of them are in good health. Grandma had to tell BM to call anytime but as far as staying at her house...the answers no. We can relate. Every major fight J and I have ever had has been over BM in some form. She has a bad influence on people.

I am really sorry to hear about your sister. I hate to say it but BM is heading down that same path. I feel so horrible sometimes because I think I might be relieved if and when she dies. That is really terrible isn't it. I hate feeling this way and I am trying to rise above it. I know how hurt the girls would be if they knew I felt this way.

It's just so damn hard when you see the negative impact day in and day out. It's even worse when you know it's never going to change but rather will more than likely get worse. So hard.

When she is released form the hospital she will no doubt go right back to the abusive addict boyfriend so there really is no way of trying to save her. Everyone hass done everything we could think to do. It's almost as if she enjoys being miserable or can't function any other way. It's totally out of our hands. All any of us can do now is do damage control with the girls and brace ourselves for when she actually successfully kills herself. Telling the girls their mother is dead is J's worse nightmare right now.

Organic-

No. The girls most absolutely will not have any contact with her untill she has been in treatment for a few months. That thought has crossed my mind as well. Whoes to say she isn't so unbalanced that she would hurt the girls? Not a chance worth taking.

It's really sad but we have decided it's best they remember her the way she was before. We already consider her dead. It's only a matter of time with that bad liver. We know she won't stop the drugs and drop the alchohol....she's a dead man walking. Her liver won't take much more and she woon't get clean....not even for her kids.

Thanks Nike for the encouragment

Thanks Sylvia for the prayers. The problem is the drugs she takes on the side always over throw or react negatively with the drugs the doctors prescribe. She never stays on her prescriptions so she never has a chance to stabalize. It's a slippery slop. We have done all we can do. Like I said it's more or less damage control on the girls now:(

good luck wiht the lawyer, what a mess, you are so strong, I don't know how you guys deal with it.

I am not downplaying the obvious tough time you are having, nor the fact that you are the responsible parents...but:

"I'm not even sure if you can drive on lithium. Just the fact that she needs lithium says alot (sic) against her."

If the BM is bipolar (aka "Manic Depressive" they are one and the same) then she, to a large extent, is not responsible for her actions. True, they are just as damaging to the kids as if she were fully in control, but for your own peace of mind and for the sake of compassion, understand it's an illness, not one that you should wish on ANYONE.

Keep in mind also, it tends to be hereditary, so your skids may develop it later in life, although it seems that things like a stable home life, no trauma, and, most importantly avoiding illegal drugs can help delay or prevent the onset of it.

Getting a bipolar person to stay on their mood stabiliser is the hardest thing in the world. My daughter is bipolar and lives overseas, so I can't be there to help manage things. I wish I could be, and she is more or less ok at the moment, but someone in a manic state is really not responsible for their actions. Of course, if they're in that state it's probably best for the kids not to see it, but it must be a two-pronged approach for her to get well, rehab PLUS a treatment regimen for the bipolar.

On the one hand, it's damaging for the kids to see her in that state, on the other hand, they need to understand she's not well, and their own best interest would be served by them resuming a relationship with her, when she is healthy and well. For them to not be able to be with her is damaging to them, in as far as they will feel a lot of guilt - you've already observed they feel a need to be her 'carers' which of course is a big trip to lay on kids.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the tough things you've faced and I think you've done the best you can, but it just horrifies me to read "Just the fact that she needs lithium says alot against her." It's an illness. It would be like keeping kids away from a relative because they have cancer.

And yes, once you've adjusted to lithium carbonate you can drive. It's a mood stabiliser - levels out the manic highs and the depressive lows. It's true, there's some danger of suicide when someone first starts on the drug I guess because they get a clear picture of what's been going on, but if they are in a supporting environment and off the nonprescription drugs, it ought to settle down, although if she's as far gone as this, it'll be hard.

Can't compair cancer to bipolar person who also is a drunk and drug addict. She has multiple problems. Mainly the drugs and her behaviour from using that poses a risk to her kids safety.
Today on the radio they stated a man from cowansville was found in the hospital totally drunk without his one year old toddler girl. The mother was beside herself! It takes this type of incident to stop visitation right eh??
THank GOD they found that little girl in the forest at noon yesterday. She was ina a tshirt and diapers. She survived the night inthe woods by herself.

Pjb-

With all due respect to your insight and your daughter....BM is way way way too crazy to be around these kids. No good can come of them talking to her slurring on pills or seeing her with track marks and cuts all up and down her arms. She also stays beat and bruised from the boyfriend. Seeing mom looking like a crack whore with two shinners is no good. Them seeing her in that state is far more damaging than them not seeing her at all. We know...we have seen them react to both. As long as she is out of the picture they adjust and do fine but as soon as there is some contact they start having issues. She has this affect on the adults in her life so imagine how it affects two six year olds.

I know Lithium is a mood stabalizer. It is a pretty extreme last ditch medication from what I understand. Only pretty mentally disturbed folks get slapped on Lithium. Anyone who isn't stable enough to be "normal" without lithium is a danger to children. I am so sorry to sound so harsh but what if the meds don't get taken regularly? What if BM forgot? What if she ran out and just didn't bother to get more because she decided she doesn't need them anymore and then totally crashes and burn? She has done this before on other meds. What if her illegal drugs and alchohol consumption cause a negative reaction? These girls will not walk in from school one day and find their mother's brains on a wall. She has already shot herself in the chest once.

We are fully aware it is hereditary and it scares the hell out ofus. That's one reason that we don't want them exposed to any more of her negativity. They don't need to be exposed to an unstable environment. Massive overdoses, abusive boyfriends, drug addiction, crazy tantrums, felony drug charges and self mutilation is all what we would consider very unstable. They are going to have hurtles to overcome without mommy further scrambling thier brains.

I don't feel you are down playing the situation. You can't down play the situation. It is what it is. We are going through hell because this woman won't get into treatment. I hold her fully responsible for all of her actions. She has not been labotamized. She knows what she is doing. She could pull herself up by the boot straps for her children if she wanted to. God knows she has had enough people reach out to her only to be dissapointed time and tme again.

She may not be "well" but that is in my opinion all the more reason for the kids to not be exposed. I hear too many storeis about "depressed" people drowning their kids in tubs to feel sorry enough for Bio Mom to let her see these kids. Whats the point if she is just going to continue living her life like this? The girls will never have a healthy relationship with her. Not to mention we would never forgive ourselves if those kids got hurt in her care because we know she is unfit and unsafe.

We stand firm.....call when you have been in treatment for at least three months. The courts will see it the same way. She will be lucky to get supervised visits unless she makes some major changes. Her craziness is not our issue or concern. Only the safety and mental well being of these girls. We know what is best for them and not having contact with mom is what is best for right now.

I may also mention that every person who has ever murdered rapped, molested or beat a person is mentally ill. Prisons are full of "sick" people. Stable people just wouldn't do these sort of things. Throw drug addict and abusive controlling boyfriend into the mix and youre asking for tragedy.

Organic- My point exactly. Totally not worth the risk just to make Bio mom feel better. She would only take her bump off the girls and then go and take a bump of cocaine when she hung up. Sorry but I don't think so.

Organic Maria-

I also agree there is a big difference between cancer and mental instability. People with cancer don't put babies in microwaves. People with cancer don't "forget" their babies out in the woods. People with cancer don't try to kill themselves five times a year. People with cancer don't have extreme and often very scary highs and lows. People with cancer don't get high and drugs and pass out while the house burns down around them killing them and their three year old. People with cancer don't typically cause hurt. Mental illness does.

To say a mentally ill person should be treated like a cancer patient is like saying a murderer should be treated the same as a thief. They are both criminals but one is far more dangerous to second parties. I'm not saying all mentally ill people are murders but all murders are mentally ill....if that makes any sense. It's a stability issue and you never know what an unstable person is capable of untill it's too late.

"We stand firm.....call when you have been in treatment for at least three months. The courts will see it the same way. She will be lucky to get supervised visits unless she makes some major changes. Her craziness is not our issue or concern. Only the safety and mental well being of these girls. We know what is best for them and not having contact with mom is what is best for right now."

Absolutely 100% agree.

And as far as someone who is bipolar...PJB, I totally sympathize with the fact that your DD is bipolar and I wish her well. And I do NOT think that all bipolar parents are *unfit.* Not all bipolar people choose to abuse drugs and alcohol.

I realize that the BM in Doodle's situation is "sick" to some degree. But her sickness is putting her girls in extreme danger and there is no way that can ever be okay.

Doodle - I really have nothing to say that is different. You are doing the right thing. And the kids will know it one day, too, and probably even thank you for keeping their life as "normal" (whatever that means) as you could. Maybe I should've said "stable" since there really is no standard definition of a "normal" life.

I'm really proud of the resolve that your DH has and his ability to be decisive. That's rare in men. You're a pretty lucky girl to have a guy that defends his values.

Like I said, I don't dispute that the mother in question is unfit for the reasons outlined...but:

"Anyone who isn't stable enough to be "normal" without lithium is a danger to children."

I'm sorry but that statement is ill-informed and reprehensible. I can't help thinking that such hateful thinking is a bad thing to be around children too, if you know what I mean.

Do yourself and your kids a favour and go to a professional and find out exactly what BP is all about. I'm not sure if you said bm was definitely bipolar, possibly they use lithium in other circumstances - and diagnosis of many of these illnesses is an inexact science, especially since many drugs are effective in treating several illnesses. My daughter takes a drug developed for epileptics, not lithium, yet she's diagnosed as bipolar.

I'm sorry to come across harsh, and acknowledge your circumstances, but your attitude comes across as rather prejudiced. I wouldn't want my kids or nieces/nephews to ever hear ME spout something like that.

I think if you do a little research you will find there are a lot of people out there who are fine parents and fine people, who DO take lithium. Many more than you'd think.

Just revisiting the cancer analogy, there are plenty of cases where such patients can and DO such things, like when it's a brain cancer. It can affect their behaviour.

I agree for the most part that people have to be 'crazy' to commit murder, but do they? Apart from Texas, most states and countries that have the death penalty, do not execute those with 'diminished responsibility' which means, the murderers they DO execute are sane.

I would have to say that the bible puts it best - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or "judge not, lest ye may be judged"

Or even "there but for the grace of god go I" - things can change for any of us in a heartbeat. I really try my hardest to live by those rules.

I think you may also be a little bias because of your daughters situation. Not to take anything away from your pain either but I don't think you have any right to judge my and my husband's judgment on this.

I am VERY prejudiced on this. I have first hand seen what her irratic behavior and in's and out's and up's and down's do to her children. I don't think my statement about lithium is ill informed either. I think it is a heavey heavey duty mood stabalizer and any person who needs THAT much stabalizing has the potential to be dangerous. Especially to young children who can't defend themselves or don't know the warning sighns of an on coming episode or how to react to one.

People on Lithium (the diagnosed mentally ill in general) can't work with children at day cares or public schools and there is a REASON for that. That can't even join the freaking millitary for weeping out loud! They are a liability and could snap and do something stupid.....not worth the risk even to the government.

I am sorry you have a daughter with issues but be honest. Would you call her safe to herself or others when she isn't on her meds? By this statement: "My daughter is bipolar and lives overseas, so I can't be there to help manage things. I wish I could be, and she is more or less ok at the moment, but someone in a manic state is really not responsible for their actions." I would guess the answer is NO. Would you trust a small child to her care alone if she has problems maintaining? Would you allow her to be around your grand children if she had a drug abuse problem? I seriously hope you wouldn't.

"More or less OK at the moment" doesn't cut the fancy mustard where childrens safety and well being are concerned. They had damn well better be 100% with it. Whether or not they can be held accountable for the actions means S*** if a child winds up hurt or, god forbid, dead. Not to mention the emotional damage it inflicts on their little hearts.

We are holding her accounttable for those girls sake before it can get that far. She can either get treatment for her drug addiction and mental issues or she can forget seeing or talking to these kids. They arn't riding the crazy train with their mother anymore. It would be "sick" to watch it go on and not interven.

I am not being insensitive....I am being REAL. This is the attitude the huge majority would take in any situation like this including the courts. She is totally unfit and is dangerous to her own children. Whether or not it is her fault (and I think a big deal of it is) or not is beside the point and we could really care less. We are not judging BM we are just evaluating the cold hard facts. She is minor steps away from prison, death or a padded cell. Not hardly an ideal person to have ANY child around.

Let us not forget the psycho sunday school teacher who was "sick" and kidnapped, rapped and murdered one of her sunday school children. Her father was the preacher and KNEW his daughter was "sick" but allowed her to teach in his church anyway. She seemed stable at the moment and her fathers excuse was "She had been doing so good for years". Too bad no one in that situation had the same convictions (or prujudices, whatever you want to call them) that we have for the twins. A totally unecessary tragedy.

You come across as pretty judgy as well I might add.

Love and Ashley-

Thanks for the support. We are 100% convinced this is for the best. He has the first meeting with his lawyer today. Cross your fingers and hope it goes well. I think BM is making this really easy for us right now.

doodle, of course you are doing the right thing for the girls. You are probably even doing the right thing for BM. I am of course not an expert, but I can't imaging that rewarding a suicide attempt by giving in and letting her see the girls would be a helpful thing to do for a suicidal, mentally ill person. It doesn't exactly send the right message.

Also, i will say that you will almost certainly feel relieved when she dies, and it will be perfectly normal thing to feel, so don't feel too terrible about it. Totally different situation, but my grandmother died a couple months ago, and probably the whole family was relieved, but I think especially my dad and uncle (her children) and their wives (my dad told me he felt relieved, and i can't imagine my uncle felt any different). Partly because she was just no longer experiencing any enjoyment out of life (so everyone was somewhat relieved for her sake), but also she had become very very difficult to deal with and for the past several years had primarily taken her unhappiness out on her sons. It was just emotionally exhausting for them, to the point where my uncle even had to stop visiting for a while; he just couldn't take her abuse (and my dad competely understood). So, they felt relieved for their own sake as well. And this was their mother, and they obviously loved her, and for most of her life she wasn't such a miserable person--they had plenty of good memories to counteract the recent bad ones (which you don't have with BM). So, yes, expect to feel relieved. It is normal, not terrible. (even if it feels terrible)

know Lithium is a mood stabalizer. It is a pretty extreme last ditch medication from what I understand. Only pretty mentally disturbed folks get slapped on Lithium. Anyone who isn't stable enough to be "normal" without lithium is a danger to children.

I think you are absolutely doing the right thing keeping your daughters away from their mom who is not stable. I would do the exact same thing and feel just as passionately about it as you do.

However, I disagree with your above statement. I had a friend who was bipolar and took lithium. She was extremely responsible about taking her medication, and she was as sane as you or I when she was on her meds. She was a stepmother to 2 11 year old boys (twins) when I met her. Her husband had full custody. She was wonderful with the boys and took very good care of them. I felt very comfortable with her and a few times she helped me out when I needed a babysitter for my baby.

She developed a totally unrelated health condition and the doctors adjusted her medication. They had trouble getting the right dose, and to make a long story short my friend lost her grip on sanity and had to be institutionalized for a short while.

It was a temporary situation, just a few weeks, and as soon as the doctors got her on the right dose of medicine it never happened again (at least for the maybe 10 years I knew her). I have to emphasize that my friend took her medication religiously, and she was profoundly grateful to have medical care that helped her be a functioning, responsible person. She never, ever took that for granted as long as I knew her. Like you, she was the primary caregiver for her stepsons and she took that responsibility very seriously - as seriously as I do for my own children. She was a wonderful, kind, ultra-responsible person who did not drink, do drugs, and practiced a very healthy lifestyle with exercise and healthy diet.

I do know other people who are bipolar and don't take their meds regularly, or perhaps their cases are so severe that they're beyond medical help. I would never, ever leave a child alone with those people, and some of them I would not let my children be around even if I was present. But I would not make a blanket statement that everyone on lithium is a danger to children. I know from my own experience that isn't true.

I'm so sorry about the situation you are in and I wish you the best.

Thanks for your support and insight. I suppose the big difference here is your friend was responsible. BM is on drugs and alchohol as well as meds for mental instability.

Your friend IS responsible and IS a good step mother but even then she still went off the deep end for awhile when her dosage got messed up. That's why I say that having to be on lithium is dangerous in itself. It only takes one little slip up to send the patient in a downward spiral. If children are present during the spiral it can get nasty really fast.

I know it sounds like a blanket statement and I guess the reason for that is it ultimately is. I just really feel the unstableness is a little scary when you have young kids in the picture. Like I said before they don't understand the warning sighns or how to react in the case of an episode making them vunerable.

I wouldn't leave my bio daughter alone with someone I knew had to be on lithium or any other extreme mood stabalizing drug. That's just me though. I consider it high risk. Maybe I'm wrong to assume that but I would be more concerned for her safety than the feelings of the person with the emotional issues.

I really do appreciate the well wishes and I hope your friend continues to do well.

Being on lithium doesn't mean that a person is unfit, dangerous, or so badly crazy that they have no value & can't be salvaged.

I do understand, & I agree, that the girls don't need to be exposed to the uproar, any more than they'd need to see a gunshot wound.

But there's a lot of inaccurate & mean-spirited *blame* going on here.

Not only can every bad habit & bad judgment & melodramatic outburst be traced back to her *disease*, but she is the children's *mother*;

bad-mouth her in front of the girls (& it can't be helped-it's like talking dirty, you'll say something in front of the girls without realizing that you've done it), take a disapproving, condemnatory attitude toward this suffering *mother*, & the girls will remember it;

No matter how strongly you insist that their mother is a piece of human trash better thrown into the dumpster, they'll remember that she is their mother & that you bad-mouthed her, that you & their father had no sympathy, empathy, or human kindness, *that you wished her dead*.

even if their mother conveniently & cooperatively dies within the next 15 minutes & you never mention her again, you'll face criticism & bitterness from those children in the future.

The girls have very little info. on their mother's condition because we do not discus it to them, with each other or even on the phone when they are home UNLESS they ask a point blank question. Then the question must be answered and it is always answered with the upmost sensitivity since BM is their "mother".

We have no sympathy for her at all. That is true. We had sympathy for her in the beginning and have tried countless times to help her or cheer her on when we thought she may actually TRY to get better. She let us and the girls down every time. The sympathy has been replaced by bitterness and frankly disgust. Sue us. Anyone who had to be the bearer of bad news time and time again to those two children would feel the same way. Even Jesus lost his temper in the temple. You can only take so much. Does J and myself claim to be perfect...hardly. Far from it. That being said I think we have been far more patient with BM than most would of been.

We arn't holding our breath for her being salvaged. Everyone has tried and she seems content to self destruct. I feel no sympathy and I take absolutely no blame. This has all been 100% her. The blame is TOTALLY hers. We have shown her tons of "human kindness" and have tried to support her and encourage her for the past two years but to absolutely no avail. This isn't a new situation....this has been a two year process for us to reach the point of saying "You are on your own sister." We can't be anything but dissaproving to her actions. WHen they ask why they can't see her we have to say because it isn't safe right now. There's no other way around it without straight up lying to them which WOULD cause bitterness towards us in the end.

And give me a break...of course we have never even breathed that we want her dead in front of the children. Do you think we are that moronic honestly? Do you think we would be putting so much time and energy into protecting them if we ourselves were going to cause hurt? Believe what you want but I have even told the girls I love their mother very convincingly even though I most deffinatly do not. Whatever it takes to help them through this.

I will say unbashedly that it will be a relief because it's coming regardless and the dread of it is worse than the outcome will be. This has been a long road and we are ready for it to end one way or the other. The girls will be hurt either way but at least the healing can begin once she's gone rather than having wounds tore open again and again. Sad bet extremely true.

The girls are not going to be bitter towards us because we have given them no reson to be. They WILL however, be bitter towards their mother when they grow up to learn she ultimately chose drugs over them. They have already started showing sighns of dissapointment in her.

AGain, she won't see or talk to them untill she has been in treatment. If she chooses to keep injecting pills and hanging with scum so be it....the choice is ultimatley hers. She isn't the victim. Her children are.

"This has all been 100% her. The blame is TOTALLY hers."

No.

She is a person with a brain disorder, & blame has no place in the situation.

She is to be pitied, not condemned.

You *could* learn about this condition, especially since it's so central to the girls, but you don't, & although your day-to-day posts about the girls are full of love & sensitivity, your attitude toward this woman is shockingly venomous, vindictive, & mean.

but in case you haven't been folowing the situation, this venomous mean vindictive b**** is the one responsible for repeatedly giving her the forms for treatment and trying to talk her into to doing herself a favor. No one else has done that....not even the womans mother. I did my damndest and now I am saying F*** it.

Plus you should check the definition of vindictive. I have in no way been vindictive. I have not been mean either...I am just fed up and so is hubby.I'm sure you have NEVER been fed up by a persons behaviors, right. HAHAHAHA as quick as you are to call me mean vindictive and venemous based on a stupid message board I know it's a crock of crap if you say no so don't even bother.

I know all I need to know about the "condition" and I am sorry if the sympathy is hard to come by after two years of this crap. SHe is not interested in even trying to get any help...that is her fault and yes I do blame her. She could of at LEAST tried but she chose not to.

You have never been in this situation so you are really not one to be calling anyone names or pointing accusatory fingers at me for being DONE with the pity party for BM. I haven't forced her to do anything she has done and niether has anyone else. SIck or no she could of made better decisions. She isn't so crazy she's locked up in a padded room. There is still some sense left in that head....she just doesn't want to climb out of the hole she dug.

She is being totally condemned as far as the kids are concerned untill she gets it together. She is like Typhoid Mary and she infects everyone she comes in contact with causing arguing, heart break,anguish, stress and over all yuckiness. She has ruined mariages and cost people their jobs.

She has ran off her own family her friends and she has forced us to cut her off. You can't go down with the ship....you would be an idiot to.

She will destroy those girls and cause stress in our marriage....not an option. No apologies for keeping our family in tact and the girls emotionally and physically safe.

We have no guilt.

"SIck or no she could of made better decisions"

No.

She couldn't.

Just as I know someone who did well on lithium, I know a few (very few) bipolar people who aren't successful at functioning with their mental illness. One of them was a beautiful and sweet little girl I watched grow into a very troubled young woman. She wouldn't take her medication when she got older, she was suicidal, into drugs and I think I remember she committed some crimes like robbery. She had a very loving, supportive family, but there is just no reasoning with her.

It's a horrible, exhausting situation for the people who have to pick up the pieces. Even if the mentally ill person isn't responsible for her actions and it's all due to her illness, the result is still the same for the people who have to clean up the mess.

I think that doodledoo and her husband are taking the right approach with the girls. It's hard for kids to grow up with an elephant in the room that no one will acknowledge. If the elephant is in the room, it's best just to tell the kids that yes, the elephant is there. The truth is that their mom is sick and it's not safe for them to be with her. That's what their dad is telling them.

Doodledoo, if you would never leave your children with someone who is on lithium, however stable they may seem, I can understand why you'd feel that way. If I had lived through all you've lived through, I would feel the same.

Since my experience is different, I don't feel that way. Over the years I've known many people with health situations that had the potential to be dangerous - anyone who's had a head injury is at a significantly higher risk to have seizures, and the onset can be years after the head injury. Anyone who had a heart attack or stroke while keeping little kids could put them in danger. At least my friend knew in advance that she had the potential to have problems when her meds were adjusted, and she had people checking on her.

But again, we all have different places where we draw the line. You do whatever you need to do to look yourself in the mirror at night and say you did your best. It sounds like you're doing a terrific job with an untenable situation.

Thanks Syviatexas. I agree with you.

Not all people with bipolar are dangerous or unfit. Many of them take lithium. Therefore, not all people who take lithium are dangerous or bad with children.

I would like to know where this info came from regarding 'people on lithium' not being allowed to work with children, teach etc.

I have a hot flash for you, I'm pretty sure there are people who are in those positions, and legally too.

I think it would be much more constructive to look at the individuals, rather than judge them on their medical conditions. People with herpes, cancer (you never know, you might catch something) HIV, parkinsons (they might drop something) might have something to say about it.

Prejudice really is an ugly thing, and ugly things come from ugly things.

My comments about my daughter are completely different to how you construe them. She's not suicidal, nor is she violent or otherwise dangerous. She even has a drivers license, yet is not on any stabiliser at the moment. In her case, her diagnosis of bipolar may not be correct, as I say, it's not an exact science.

She is coping ok with the normal ups and downs of a young woman who's had some tough times, perhaps more so, but in no way would she be a danger to anyone.

Not to mention, people can 'snap/go off the rails/ go postal at any time, without an underlying organic mental illness. It can be circumstances.

Were the shooters at Columbine on lithium or considered mentally ill at least beforehand? Nope.

So considering stuff can happen to any of us, let's not be too hasty to lock away others, lest we be locked up. That's how fascist states start, and people start disappearing - ostensibly for the best of motives.

Like I say I'm not defending the bm in op's case - although I do feel empathy for her. I agree that in her reported state, she's not fit to be in charge of children, again, a person who is technically 'sane' could be the same.

"It's a horrible, exhausting situation for the people who have to pick up the pieces. Even if the mentally ill person isn't responsible for her actions and it's all due to her illness, the result is still the same for the people who have to clean up the mess."

Well said. I think THIS is the main point here. It doesn't really matter WHY BM is the way she is or why she has made these choices in her life. There really is no point in either assigning blame or making excuses.

Doodle and J are doing the right thing and the ONLY thing they can do, anyway--protecting the girls.

Sylvia-
"No. She couldn't."

You don't know her. You haven't seen her action. You haven't witnessed her get it together when it's something she WANTS to accomplish. You don't even know a small fraction of the story therefore it isn't your place to say what decisions she could have made. When she was in rehab for two months she could of stayed there rather than run off with her BF to get high.

Daisy-

"Doodledoo, if you would never leave your children with someone who is on lithium, however stable they may seem, I can understand why you'd feel that way. If I had lived through all you've lived through, I would feel the same."

Thank you so much for understanding that a person who witmesses a worst case scenario probably isn't going to be likely to take chances.

Even if the percentage is low on the risk factor scale once you have been part of that percentage you probably arn't going to be convinced by others who haven't personally experienced the situation. Based on this scenario I would never let my daughter be taken care of a person who has a known mental illness. It's my perogative. I appreciate how you can see why I would feel that way after what we have gone through with BM. Thank you.

PJB-

"I would like to know where this info came from regarding 'people on lithium' not being allowed to work with children, teach etc."

I know this because I work in this field and that is one of the questions you get asked. They want to know if you have any sickness or injury that will prevent you from doing the job (back injuries, Epilepsy and the like) and they specifically ask if you or family members have a history of mental illness. Then they want to know what medications you are on.

I have been through that process five times since I was 16 for Daycare center jobs and currently for a Early Learning Coalition position. They also do extensive background checks.

They are covering themselves. People with epilepsy and back injuries could drop a child. Mental illness could cause highs and lows or make a person less tolerant to children depending on the diagnoses and the severity. Certain Meds prescribed for mental illnesses can also cause sluggishness/drowsiness which is no good when you have babies in your care.

As for the Millitary I had a boyfriend in high school who had some form of MI and he was on some popular drug for depression. It may have been Prozac? I don't remember...anyway long story short, they asked him the same questions I was aked when he was trying to join the Army. When they asked about the history of MI and found out he was diagnosed and on the medication they turned him down. He couldn't join. Too much of a liability. They flat out told him it was because of his condition.

Love-

"Doodle and J are doing the right thing and the ONLY thing they can do, anyway--protecting the girls."

Thank you Love. We don't doubt for a nano second they we are making the wrong decision here.

For the record to all of you who think I am so horrible to BM, I have obtained another application to the House Of Hope and explained her situation to the ladies there in hope to get BM bumped to a priority spot. BM claims she will go if I can get her in and as aggravated as I am with her I am doing my damndest to get her accepted for her own sake and the girls.

I am such a vindictive,venemous,mean person, Yes?

"Were the shooters at Columbine on lithium or considered mentally ill at least beforehand? Nope. "

Actually, Eric Harris was meeting with a psychiatrist regularly for over a year because of death threats he had made and other expressions he had made of wanting to kill people who annoyed him. He also was on medication for depression; medication that has side effects of increased aggression, loss of remorse, depersonalization and mania. There are some reports that he had traces of the drug in his system when he killed himself.

I think in any situation there are cumulative events that make up an ultimate situation... in the Columbine case there were many, many, many signs that these young men had issues that could be dangerous. A year previously they were arrested for stealing guns. They had websites that threatened the lives of others. They gave notice. No one took them seriously enough.

If Doodle wants to lock those kids down and hide them away, I wouldn't blame her. Were I in a situation where there were so many factors: the drugs, the disease, the boyfriend, the repeated behaviors... and then add drugs to treat the drugs... I can't tell you what I'd do, but I can say I'm surprised she isn't more "judgmental".

And mania can be caused and exacerbated by drug use. BM is not blameless in this situation. It is good to be empathetic but not wise to have misplaced trust in those who have mania. Walk softly, but carry a big stick.

Yes, anyone can snap at any time. We can't be prepared for that. This is different. In this "individual case" Doodle has had ample warning. To ignore the warnings would be neglectful, especially out of some misguided attempt at "giving chances" and assuming she isn't any danger to these children. Her boyfriend is particularly scary to me. This situation has the potential to get a lot scarier.

Doodle, you have my support on this one.

Doodle, for what its worth you having my support 100% on this one too.

When it comes right down to it, your responsibility and your husbands' is to take care of those girls. Their mother is not healthy in any way...emotionally, physically, spiritually... and sadly exposure to BM right now would just be damaging to those girls. Its sad that her mental illness, lifestyle choices, drug & alcohol abuse, criminal behavior all add up to the fact that she is not going to be allowed to see those precious children.

I've said it before, you are a saint for even trying to help that woman. I hate to admit it, but I don't think I could muster up that kind of empathy for our BM if this was our situation.

You and J are doing the right thing for those girls. They are very, very lucky to have this kind of stability provided to them. So many kids from substance abuse families don't ever get any kind of stability.

Silversword-

"Actually, Eric Harris was meeting with a psychiatrist regularly for over a year because of death threats he had made and other expressions he had made of wanting to kill people who annoyed him. He also was on medication for depression; medication that has side effects of increased aggression, loss of remorse, depersonalization and mania. There are some reports that he had traces of the drug in his system when he killed himself."

Thanks for pinting this out. I knew this but figured it was pointless to bring it up since PJB can't understand my position. No point in arguing with a brick wall.

Thanks you for your support as well. It is getting scarier....just read my newest post.

Strawberry-

Thank you for your kind words. We are toyally stressed in this lose lose situation. There just isn't many possible good endings to this. It has at the least been extremely exhausting. We are just so tired of the entire subject of BM. It is so hard to keep putting on the happy face every time she gets menioned when what we really feel like doing is vomiting. Just exhausting.

As the mother of a son whose disability is classified as a mental illness, and who has been known to say some things that could be very frightening if you didn't know what a kind child he is --
well, I have empathy for the families of people with mental illnesses, and try to be non-judgemental about people with mental illnesses. I know several people with bi-polar disorder and depression who I consider to be very trustworthy and stable. They handle their difficulties well and make decisions that keep their limitations in mind.

But the BM in question clearly doesn't fit into that category.
Sure, her mental illness makes her life much, much more difficult.
And simply having bipolar disorder is not a misdeed deserving of judgement or condemnation. It's not her fault that she has bipolar disorder.
And because she has bipolar disorder, her responsibility for her own poor decisions is mitigated. Not absolved. But mitigated.
Her ability to make good decisions is compromised, and the decisions she's made/making are simply *dreadful*.

And that's the problem.
Not why she does it, because as far as the girls are concerned, why she does it is meaningless.
Not even how culpable she is for her actions -- because again, regardless of how much or how little blame she should have for her actions, her actions are damaging and flat-out dangerous.
And that's the problem.

I stayed in my rotten first marriage for years because I couldn't really blame Ex for his behavior, even though he hurt me in so many ways. If it wasn't his fault, didn't that mean I should forgive it and tolerate it? It took therapy to get me to realize that even if it wasn't his fault, that didn't make it OK! His behavior was simply awful, and since the reasons why he acted the way he did weren't going to go away, his behavior simply wouldn't change.

BM's still not addressing the underlying problems -- bipolar disorder, drugs and alcohol.
So since the reasons remain intact, the behavior will continue.
And that can't be allowed.

And Doodle -- In this case, you are not being prejudiced. Prejudiced is where you judge someone based on insufficient information - one or two little pieces that you use to taint the whole. You're judging this person based on years of bad history.
There's no pre-judging going on there.

Bi polar is only one of birth moms many problems, and if someone has bi polar it doesnt mean they will be an unfit parent, but there would definately be challenges...Everyone has choices, even when one has bipolar!
My sister held down a very public job, had a mortgage, two cars and two cats while having bipolar on her own.She chose to have her tubes tied, because she didn't feel that she could give a child 100% with how bad her condition was..smart move on her part....... In my sisters case I think she just couldn't take it anymore.She was tired of battling and I understand. I guess my point is, that BM can get her s***t together if she wants, but ONLY if she wants..........

Doodle don't feel bad about how you feel about if she did die.....you have been put through so much heartache with the girls, and trying to protect them, it is only natural to want the situation to go away....its normal and lots of people think/feel that way sometimes, you just have the strength to admit it! and there is nothing wrong with that.

From my research as far as heredity goes and bi polar (I was a bit concerned for myself because of my sister and mother.....environment doesn't seem to play a huge roll in whether one develops bipolar, and as far as heredity goes, it's basically means your girls are 50% more likely than the rest of the population to develop some type of mental disorder....that doesnt mean a 50/50 chance...just that they have a greater risk...........
I hope everything sorts itself out for you!

Sweeby-

Once again you have managed to say exactly what I mean in a much more eloquent fashion than my blunt tail ever could. You hit the nail squarly on the head at least five times in your reply.

Like you situation with your EX we have just reached a point where it's cut her out and save ourselves and the girls or go down with the ship. We had to make a choice. This is the only one we could come up with.

Fiveinall-

Your sister sounds like she did the best she could and she also made some serious and very responsible choices regarding children. In my opinion that is the quality of a good mother...make the best decisions you can for your children. Your sister did that so I hold her in higher regards as a mother than I do BM!

I have so many times asked J what were you thinking getting this nut pregnant! I had to remind myself that at the time he was also in the habit of making pretty bone headed decisions and has changed his life style DRASTICALLY since I have met him. He know spends all his time protecting the girls the best he can to make up for the times he didn't. I have stopped throwing his past mistakes up in his face.

Thank god he got straight when he did or the poor girls would be wards of the state. I honestly believe there was an angel watching after the girls wen their father reached his epifany. His choice to change ultimately saved them.