Just a couple of quick comments to get the discussion going.
I would rather have landing space beside a MW than a fridge.
Is this your forever home? If so, don't forget in 2-3 years your babies won't be babies and they can be getting their own glasses and drinks out of the fridge and you won;t have them on your hip anymore.
Can you as a temporary measure, put their sippy cups in the pantry - maybe in a basket - to save you that one step?
Also - is your fridge drawing accurate - i.e. is your handle going to be on the right side because I would put it on the left so it opens toward the island. It will be easier to swing your body that way when putting something on the island.
No big solution/changes from me but maybe a realization that this plan can work and your procedures in the kitchen will evolve as the kids get older and that is what you have to look at, realize and plan for.

We do plan to be in this house for 20+ years. The neighborhood and view make it my potential dream house - once we deal with the old, ugly, non-functioning and poorly laid-out parts, LOL.

The fridge & freezer handle placements in the drawing were completely arbitrary because I had not decided yet if it was better to have the fridge open toward the range wall or more toward the center of the island.

The island layout is totally up for grabs. I added a prep sink and trash to the island per suggestions here, but I am not sure exactly where they should go. I also considered changing the seating so there are 2 seats on the end and 2 seats on the north side

Have you thought about flipping the prep sink and wine frig? Then you can put a small secondary trash under the prep sink. that would also free up the trash space in the island where you could keep some glasses in the drawers... especially if you get a 3 drawer stack where the drawers are a bit deeper

I actually think it is more convenient to have the landing space across from the fridge instead of beside it. This would especially be true if you were going to have a side by side or french door fridge (which it appears you are not.) In my former house even though I had landing space beside the fridge, I always used either the island or peninsula instead. So bottom line is, I don't think it will be all that bad to have to swing over to the island. A bigger problem for your layout is where you will store the glasses. And with that big beautiful wine fridge, where will the wine glasses be stored?

If this is your set layout, then I echo blfenton's suggestion. Put the kids' cups and plates and things in a low position where they can get at them. My kids are 5 and 3 and I keep all of my kids' stuff in a bottom drawer near the fridge so they can easily get their own glasses of water or pick out their own plate or cup at lunchtime. It's great! The 18" storage section on your island next to the trash would be perfect for that.

Saysd,agree that landing for the MW is far more important.

Also, my fridge is on a separate wall like your architect's drarwing, but with a landing space next to it that's never used for the fridge because it's our coffee nook. Instead, we pivot to the island, which has glasses storage, or just pour into a glass we're holding. However, if you wanted landing space next to, why not just develop a shallow but nice niche from the pantry area? It could have a glasses cabinet above or below also. If that were my pantry, I'd make those side shelves deeper to maximize storage potential anyway (if you draw in a niche, you'll see why I'm thinking of that).

Also, regarding dangerous next to the hall door, with the heavy work area of the kitchen directly ahead, including stove and ovens, wouldn't most traffic without business there tend to detour around the kitchen anyway?

pull-out work surfaces can help in both situations

You have set down on the island right near both the fridge and the freezer on the island. I really don't understand the current train of thought that it is "too much" to take a step or two to set things down when taken out of the fridge. Or that walking a few extra steps to get a glass is a problem for that matter. Current obesity epidemic? Part of the problem stems from low activity levels. The least one could do is have some passive activity by taking a few steps to actually get the excess calories you are putting in your mouth.

Its much more important to be able to set down something immediately from the oven, and I find particularly with the microwave. It is second nature to take things out of a conventional oven with well protected hands, but not with the microwave.

I would probably play around a bit with the way you have the island set up. For e.g. maybe do 18" storage, then trash, then sink. What I would like to see is prep space on the range side of the island rather than the table side like it is now. The way it is now you would be carrying stuff over the sink, so further, to the range area. If you move the sink down and have your prep area closer to the range there would be less distance for carrying stuff but you still want 36" of prep space.
On the floor plans that you have as above, print out a bunch and move yourself around on it as if you were cleaning and prepping and feeding kids etc.

I say switch the fridge and freezer and use the island for landing. This is what I do in my kitchen.

Your plan looks pretty good to me...Maybe because it's a lot like mine. ;-) But after 3+ years, it's working pretty well for us.

I also believe the best landing for a fridge is often the island, and that because you're dealing with something hot, landing space close to the mw is more important. Palimpsest has made excellent points.

You can see with my plan (in the link below), that our main cooking fridge not only lacks landing space nearby, but the door swings the 'wrong way' to seem convenient, but I find neither to be a problem in daily use. I go to the island with most anything I get out of the fridge.

The only things I question in your plan are the trash locations. For one thing, I use the trash mostly during 2 activities...Prep and scraping plates for cleanup, in that order. For us, placing a trash pullout in the corner of the island between main sink and stove serves both locations. Neither of your trash pullouts are very convenient to you while in the throes of cooking a meal, so you are able to get trash, empty containers, or trimmings out of your way quickly.

No need to stress...You already have an excellent start with possibly some minor tweaking needed to meet your needs. Best wishes.

Here is a link that might be useful: My kitchen photos and info

My aunt's house ( bought this way ) had a pull-out shelf under the microwave.
It was very efficient.
almost like a pullout breadboard in thickness.
it was there when you needed it and not when you didn't
i thought it to be a good idea and she did use it all the time
FWIW

Remodelfla, I am a bit confused about the suggestion to flip the prep sink and the wine fridge. Do you mean I should move the prep sink to my pantry wall and then put an undercounter wine fridge in the island instead of the tall wine tower? Putting glassware or anything breakable in drawers is tricky, as my 2 year old likes to help herself and play with anything she finds in the lower cabinets.

Ncamy, I am glad to hear you do not find it inconvenient to use an island as landing space for the fridge. We have a large collection of wine glasses displayed in our china cabinet in the dining room. If we have a party, I get them out ahead of time to rinse and polish and place on the table or in a serving zone. For just DH or I, we make the short hike to the dining room to grab a glass. Since having kids, we are too tired to drink very often, so it is not too much of a hassle. I was going to try to move a few of each size glass into the kitchen cabinets though, if any end up being convenient to the wine fridge.

Blfenton and Geokid, I do plan to put non-breakable kid cups, dishes, bottles, etc. into a lower cabinet. I had not picked which cabinet yet, but I can try to get it close to the fridge - great idea. I am really looking forward to having enough lower cabinets to do this, as I have them shoved in an awkward upper in our current kitchen.

Rosie, interesting to hear that you pivot to the island from the fridge rather than using the adjacent landing space. When you mention carving out a niche from the pantry, do you mean from the pantry I drew, which is a reach in pantry with 16-18" deep shelves and additional storage on the backs of the pantry doors, or from the architect's walk-in pantry? Interestingly, when I was thinking about putting the speedoven on the pantry wall (with bottom at about 36" off floor and top 54" from floor), I thought I made add a niche on top of the oven as a temporary landing space for hot items if needed. It would work well for DH and I, but be too high for the kids for several years. As for traffic through the side hall door into the kitchen, that is the most convenient access to the kitchen from the garage, all bedrooms other than master, and hall bath, so it will get used a lot. Plus, my 2 year old likes to run laps in and out the 2 doors we currently have between hall and kitchen. DH's opinion is that it is unlikely anyone will run into an open oven door more than once without learning the lesson, but I am a bit more cautious.

Florantha, I like the idea of pullout work spaces. Do you mean something a little like a pullout cutting board? I talked about doing something like that with my cabinet maker, but he thought it would ruin the lines and functionality of the tall pantry cabinets. Do you have any pictures?

Palimpsest, you are right about grabbing hot things out of the microwave without thinking to grab a glove first. In our last house, the cabinet with the drinking glasses was 8' from the fridge, and it never really bothered us to walk to grab a glass (there was a nice counter right next to the fridge where I could pour things, though). I keep reading here on GW that everything should be stored as close to point of use as possible for efficiency. We are actually not sure we need a prep sink, since we have always just had 1 big sink, but GWers told me there was too much distance between my fridge, range and sink. So I am confused at this point.

Blfenton, I thought I was supposed to have the sink closer to the range to dump hot pasta water, etc. I am nervous about moving it too far into the island so it is near diners and breaking up my workspace. I am not sure I really want a sink in the island at all - my original plan was one large expanse of workspace for cooking, baking, homework projects, etc.

Coastal, I am glad to hear island landing space works for you too. I am curious why you would switch the fridge and freezer - I am still trying to figure out why one way works better than another.

A few questions regarding the prep sink:

1) Do I really need one?

2) If I leave a sink on the island and the fridge on the north wall, I think the sink should move to the south side of the island (across the aisle from the clean-up sink) to leave better landing space for the fridge. I could either put the sink in the southeast corner of the island (so it is accessible from either the short or long side of the island) or move it 18-24" in from the end to leave more open island prep space near the range. What position makes more sense?

3) If I have 30" next to my range, does it make sense to put a 15" sink next to the range rather than in the island? I like how Sochi's prep sink looks right next to her cooktop, but she has more counterspace on the other side of the sink than I would.

I wish I had a better spot for a pantry. If I did, I would turn the 9' north wall into a "cooling"/bar wall. I would put the fridge and freezer at the ends with the handles facing the middle, and in between would have 2 UC wine coolers, with a 4' counter and glass front cabinets above to hold all the glassware. Oh well, a girl can dream.

Rhome, thank you for the encouragement and for posting your kitchen- I am going to look at it closely tonight after little one goes to bed. I have always made whatever kitchen we have work for us, but I am getting crazy stressed out about getting this one "just right" since we plan to be here a long time. DH keeps trying to tell me that 80% is good enough because perfect is not going to happen in the space we have available. I agree that the trash locations need more work - I was trying to deal with the big appliances first and figured I would deal with trash and DW placement later. If I move the prep sink to the south side of the island across from the clean-up sink, I might be able to place the trash pullout so that it is convenient to use next to the prep sink and for scraping dirty dishes before they go in the DW (I do not pre-rinse). Alternatively, I may put just a small can under the prep sink and have the larger trash & recycling pullout near the clean-up sink. I am used to using an empty bowl for trash when I prep now because our trash can is so inconvenient in the current kitchen.

Muspic, a pullout board under the microwave is a great idea. Unfortunately, the microwave/speedovens we are looking at have doors that open down like regular wall ovens, rather than sideways like a typical microwave. We have thought about putting a niche above the oven for a landing shelf if it is not right next to a counter.

I think when it comes to more intensive activity the sink near the range makes sense so the island does not become something you orbit while cooking and prepping. I have never had a prep sink but my islands have tended to be peninsulas that weren't attached, not something in the middle of the workspace. They are kinda different situations.

In terms of proximities, it is impossible to have all ideal proximities and adjacencies, imo, you just focus on the ones that are most important for you. The glasses may not be near both the DW and fridge for example, but closer to the one you deem more practical for your needs.

A couple of points about the prepsink ; I empty my pasta into the cleanup sink and I think for you it would be a 50/50 choice. Maybe a little further to the cleanup sink but I would rather follow the perimeter of counter than swing around to the prep sink and risk tripping over a toddler with a pot of hot water. The other reason I do is I tend to keep my prep sink only for washing veggies and fruit and tending to them - to me emptying pasta water is dirty stuff and so goes into the clean up sink.

If you do away with the prep sink you are going to have a problem with the island becoming a "barrier island" and being in the way of your prep area/sink and your fridge. That could become inconvenient. I think you have a great spot for the sink in your island - it's just a matter of analyzing where to put it and your trash and having functional access to both your fridge and range.

I think the 24" tall wine fridge is taking up valuable kitchen space when it could be placed elsewhere. It is not something one usually uses day in and day out, multiple times a day (unless you have bigger problems than kitchen placement, lol). I think I'd rather it be nearby and the space saved used for something else, like a tall pantry, so that the space next to the fridge could have upper and lower cabs (or lower and upper shelving) and a countertop area.
How often do you need to stock or unload the wine fridge? If you open a bottle of wine with dinner each night, that would still not justify that large an item in the middle of your kitchen. I'd put it in the dining room behind discreet doors, like a piece of furniture, or in some other nearby room.

I think what you've got is decent. I would not do without a prep sink in your layout. You'd have to walk a long ways around that island to get from the other sink to the fridge. I have two little ones also. Walking that far would mean dodging a constant obstacle course of children and their toys/gear in my house. ;)

I had the same thought as Dianalo though. That wine fridge is in a valuable real estate spot. I suggested this on your last layout thread, and I'll say it again. If it must be in the kitchen, a much better spot would be on the south end of the cleanup sink run. That's kind of a dead space there. The you could have more breathing room around the range.

In my old kitchen, my range was boxed in by a 15" counter to the pantry cab on one side, and 24" to the fridge on the other side. I cursed that tiny space everyday even though I didn't chop or do heavy prep there.

I have to say, though, that I like the architects's plan too except for the ovens opening into doorway. You could split the 48" fridge he's got there into the individual columns. Then put the freezer next to the pantry and the ovens next to that. Then the fridge goes where the ovens are. It feels more open than what you have. Not saying your plan looks closed in. I would still put a prep sink on the island.

His plan has an open corner, but yours doesn't. Did something happen there?

Also, does the pantry cab you drew really have bowed doors like that?

Hang in there! I remember DH was pushing you before. I know the feeling and sympathize!

I think your prep sink is necessary, since your cleanup sink is so far around the island. I also think it's perfectly placed in the current plan. It's usable for the stove/prep, and also handy for those on the perimeter of the kitchen. Moving it toward the clean up sink will only crowd activities and the inner aisle, and make the prep sink less of a multi-tasking tool.

Where it is, it can be used by more than one person and for more than just cooking prep. It also serves a 2ndary prep or snack area on the fridge side of the island, and is handy to those seated at the far end of the island. It's useful for handwashing for those just coming into or past the kitchen. It's where ours is and I find it useful for SO many things. I really would hate to see yours moved.

kaysd, on the Parade of Homes tour I usually hate most of the ktichens but I remember one that seemed excellent, with the exception of the microwave being built into a wall of pantry cabs. I asked the company pres. who was the host "where do people put the hot stuff?" and he was flabbergasted. He hadn't thought about it--the nearest receiving surface was the island behind the person at the microwave. I said, "If you ever do this again put a pullout board under it and he did a "Duh!" dope slap to the head.

Yes, I'm talking about a "breadboard" style pullout board. We had one in our old kitchen adjacent in the 2-foot square cabinet between range and refrig. We used it constantly, even eating at it sometimes. You can put the grocery bag on the countertop and unload items forward onto the board, sorting the ones to go into the refrig. You can make sandwiches on it. You can cut cheese and celery for a quick appetizer tray. And you can pile all the things that are going back into refrig at end of meal so you only open refrig door once. Pulling out the board means that the plunk space is better positioned for setting items into and out of the refrig. It's like a quiet servant.

One problem with putting it directly under microwave is that you have to open the microwave door BEFORE messing with putting items in or out. If the pull-out is nearby but not immediately below, you can set down the item, open the door, insert item, run the heating cycle, open door, remove item to surface, then close door. If the pullout surface is directly below microwave, you still have to tote the hot item elsewhere before you shut the door.

Palimpsest, you are right of course that not everything can be close to everything else. I will likely store glasses between the DW and fridge, but closer to the DW.

Blfenton, I never thought of pasta water as dirty. I am not sure yet what I will use the prep sink for, although it will be a nice hand washing sink for kids and guests that keeps them out of my way at the main sink. I pictured using the prep sink to fill and empty pots going to and from the range. I imagine I will use the prep sink to rinse fruits and veggies before I chop, peel or otherwise process them at the island. I do not generally do much prep in or over a sink - I usually rinse items in a colander and then work with them on a large cutting board, scraping scraps into a trash can or trash bowl as they accumulate (we do not use a garbage disposal). I do have to figure out where best to put trash, whether next to or under the prep sink.

Dianalo, no trips to the wine fridge multiple times daily, lol - not even once a day anymore. I agree I have to move the wine fridge away from the main cooking zone. Unfortunately, we do not have room for a wine cabinet in the dining room (which would be convenient) unless we get rid of other furniture, plus the nice furniture look cabinets cost a lot more than what I would have to pay for a column in the kitchen with the BSH employee discount. Our house has tons of windows, which are very nice, but it leaves little wall space to place furniture. No basement for wine storage either and the garage is too hot and too crowded - I guess a could put a unit in the guest bedroom, lol.

Breezy, our whole house is an obstacle course thanks to our daughter, and I can just picture it with 2 kids. I have to check her location first whenever I want to open the hot oven, to make sure I will not be tripping over her. The architect's plan did have an open corner, but I drew it framed in. I hate corner cabinets, and want a clean transition between tall deep cabinets on one side of the corner and standard uppers and lowers on the adjacent wall. Rhome did something similar, and I have seen other pictures with the same idea and really like the look. We may access the 24" deep x 24" wide space from the guest room on the other side of the east wall, maybe for built-in display shelves and drawers, or a small utility closet to store some seldom needed stuff.

Rhome, I had not thought about the prep sink being used for fixing snacks or washing hands - good points. It does seem to be more useful if it is farther from the other sink, as long as it will not impede landing space from the fridge.

Florantha, using pullout boards for plunk space near the fridge sounds so useful. I am going to try to incorporate 1 or 2 into my pantry wall.

I really want to thank everyone who took the time to respond. You have given me a lot to think about. I now have more confidence in my general layout, as well as some good ideas about how to improve it.

I have not had a chance to draw it yet, but here is what I think I am going to do. I am going to stick with something that looks a lot like my drawings. The east wall will have the range in the middle with about 30" of counters and lower cabinets on each side. The 24" wall oven(s) [Miele Chef speed oven plus maybe a steam oven depending on GC bids] will stay where they are on the drawing. The 24" wine column to the left of the range will be replaced by a tall pantry cabinet with ROTS. I will either put a UC wine cooler in the island or the corner of the south wall nearest the dining room, or I might put an 18" wine column between the window and the dining room. I will use a 36" range hood, then have a 3-4" gap on each side of the hood, then a 13" deep x 23-24" wide upper cabinet next to the deep pantry and oven cabinets.

On the north wall, the fridge and freezer columns will flank the 4' wide pantry cabinet. The handles for the fridge and freezer columns will face in toward the pantry. The pantry will have flat doors with shallow (4-6" deep) storage units on the backs of the doors, and 16-18" deep shelves lining the cabinet. I will ask my cabinet maker if he can do the cabinet with a total of 4 doors (2 top and 2 bottom), with a sturdy pullout counter (either 4' wide or in 2 pieces) that looks like a decorative horizontal trim piece between the top and bottom doors. I am attaching a link to an inspiration pantry - it just needs the "breadboard" pullout.

Here is a link that might be useful: [pantry inspiration[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/showroom-display-traditional-kitchen-boston-phvw-vp~96086)

Hi again.

Think about the prep sink as the place where you do all of your meal prep. Pretend the cleanup sink on the wall doesn't exist. Every fruit, veg, protein, etc goes to the island and your sink there. Then everything dirty after use in prep goes to the cleanup sink. That's how I view a prep sink. You WILL use it. It's not just another sink to have in the kitchen.

Buehl often states that most garbage is generated during meal prep. I recycle any cans, etc from prep and put all my food scraps in the compost so I can't vouch for that. But I'm sure she's right. I think having the main garbage pullout on the island is best, somewhere on the cleanup sink side maybe. Then you could always have a smaller can under the sink to use for cleanup if the other pullout is too far away and you don't compost or have a garbage disposal for scraps. Or leave the pullout where you have it drawn now and add the small can under the cleanup sink.

I think moving the wine fridge off the range run is a good idea, but I don't understand why you'd replace it with a pantry cab. My suggestion to move the wine fridge was to free up space around the range. Do you need more pantry space?

Love that big custom pantry cab in your link! And I'm so glad you feel like you're making progress!

You've probably already made a decision, but thought I would chime in. I think someone else may have suggested this, but what about just switching the prep sink and the recycle? There was a thread earlier about how much space to leave to the side of a prep sink. Personally, I think it makes much more sense to have the prep sink in the middle of a counter giving you space on both sides to work. My kitchen now has only about six inches of counter on one side and it drives me crazy. This will be rectified in the remodel. I agree with whoever said it's nice to have a sink near the range (i.e., pouring water off pasta, etc.) Let us know what you decide.

Drdannie--the nice thing about having the prep sink where it is now is that it can be used from both the long end and short end of the island. Especially when the faucet is placed in the back corner. Rhome's island and prep sink placement is like this and it works very well for her.

If the sink was where the trash is, neither side of the sink would have very much uninterrupted counter space for prep, and it would be very close to the stool area. It'll come down to Kay's choice ultimately.

You can easily work around the prep sink to find landing space for fridge items. The proper, most useful placement of the prep sink is more important than general landing space. A step or a foot to the side for landing space is not a big deal.

Love the looks of that pantry, but it's best for small items, like your ROTS pantry. If you'll ever have anything like a 40 pound bag of dog food, Costco size bag of flour, or Costco size package of paper towels, etc., etc., or want to store a broom or step stool, it's not as flexible as a step in/closet style pantry. Just something to think about.

I am going to try to address the last few comments and questions comprehensively.

Prep sink: I have thought about swapping the sink and trash like a few people have recommended, but feel the corner is probably the best placement for me, with the faucet in the back corner. Having it in the corner allows for 30" of work surface to the left of the sink on the short end of the island and 36" between the sink and setting area on the long side of the island. If I switch the sink and trash, then I just have 18" on each side.

Trash: I think it makes sense to keep the trash and recycling on the north side of the island, near the prep sink, since a lot of recyclable packaging will be coming from the pantry, fridge and freezer. I picture rinsing veggies at the sink and then moving them onto a cutting board just to the right of the sink to chop. I am trying to decide if the trash would be more convenient right next to the sink (where I am likely to stand) or if it should move down to the right a little more. So, should it be sink, trash, storage, seating or sink, storage trash, seating? I will need a second small trash can near the clean up sink and DW to scrape plates off. I am still trying to figure out how to line up the lowers on that wall.

Pantry: Our last house had a 17" wide pantry cabinet with ROTS in the kitchen, then a nearby laundry room with 8' long of 18" deep shelving, 5 shelves high with the highest at about 6'. I used maybe 4' of the 18" deep shelves for cans and bags and boxes of food. The rest of the shelving held overflow pots and pans, picnic basket, Costco paper towel and TP purchases and random house hold items. I guess that is why I figured that having a 4' wide pantry with 18" deep shelves (plus extra storage behind the doors) plus the 24" pantry with ROTS would suit our needs well.

I must admit the primary reason for replacing the 24" wine tower with a 24" tall pantry cabinet was to maintain symmetry with the 24" oven cabinet at the other end of the wall. 30" on each side of the range was what we had at the last house and it worked well. 24" was too small, but I think 30" will be plenty. I bought a steam oven on clearance, so I will have two 24" ovens to place. I am debating between stacking them together in one cabinet and having the other deep cabinet be pure pantry, or putting one oven at about counter height in each tower, with storage above and below.

We have lots of wall cabinets in our garage where we store the huge packages of paper towels, TP, diapers, wipes, etc from Costco, with just small amounts going into the house. We considered a walk-in pantry like the architect drew, but you lose a lot of storage space in the middle of the walk-in. We plan to do the reach-in pantry from the kitchen side, with an 18-20" deep hall closet immediately behind (pretty easily accessible from kitchen). The 9'8" hall closet will have a few feet of shelves for linens, shelves for cleaning products and paper products, shelves for games, and standing room for the vacuum, steam mop, ironing board, etc. There will be a 26" deep x 8' wide coat closet further down the hall. Hopefully this will give us enough storage space in the house.

Maybe I can design the kitchen reach-in pantry more like a double door closet (with the doors going down to the floor), rather than like a cabinet.

Thank you all for your help in working through these decisions.