Wry, I just got done posting this on the other thread, but will post it here too. My point is, who is really being punished for the rest of their life???

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Yes, I think an affair is bad, and so is abandoning you child. Doing both is much worse. But how exactly to you punish someone for the rest of their life? How do you do that without punishing yourself for the rest of your life? and your children???

As the victim of a crime, I could say that the perpetrator should be punished, he should have a record, he should never be allowed to harm someone else ever again. If I had spent the last twenty years or thirty years, trying to make the people that hurt me 'pay' for their crimes, then I would not have moved on and found the joy in my life. I would have spent all that time, reliving the pain. I would have spent all my energy focused on the worse things that have ever happened to me, instead of on the best things, which are my kids. As long as you hold onto the pain, you can't truly feel joy. As I let go of bad things that happened in my past, I feel free. I can smile and focus on myself, not what the other person is doing. My kids have a happy mom, not a mom that is bitter and angry about what was done to me.

The other day, my daughter's father called me. He says he has been trying to call my daughter, but she won't answer her phone. She won't call him back. He asked me if I can talk to her. If I can convince her to call him. Then he asked me if I will call him every once in a while to tell him how she's doing. Well, I guess I could have told him that he's getting what he deserves, but I didn't. I guess I could have rubbed his face in it, that he abandoned her before she was born and what does he want from me? I could be bitter that I had to raise her myself without his help and laugh in his face to make him feel worse. I didn't. I don't enjoy his pain, because I know his pain is derived from the pain my daughter is going through. She is hurting because she can't trust the man that told her he would call her but didn't. He told her he wanted to see her and then moved away and didn't see her again. He's lied to her, when he told her that the reason he hasn't seen her is because his kids would be upset. Then she found out his kids didn't even know about her. He is suffering the consequences of his actions. Does he deserve it? Yep, he made his choices over the years. Do I get any satisfaction to know he is now suffering??? Nope, I feel sad that my daughter is rejecting a dad that now wants to be a part of her life. I have wanted him to be a part of her life for eighteen years, and while over the years, I have felt angry toward him for not having a relationship with her and resentful that he left me to do this alone, while he was raising his other children with his wife, I cannot feel anything but sad now.

I don't know what good it does for you to hold onto your anger for what your ex-husband did to you theotherside, but that's your business. As angry as I get over my SD's mom leaving and not seeing or calling her like she should, it is sad to me that she is destroying her relationship with her own child and may someday be in the same boat as my daughter's father. And I won't necessarily feel sad for her, but I already feel sad for her daughter. When I look at what my daughter is going through, it feels like I can look into the future and see what my step daughter is going to go through someday... it may actually be much worse for my step daughter because her mom disappoints her frequently on a regular basis.

With out the anger what do you have left from the relationship? NOTHING....oh but I am sure some will say the children ... yes you do have your children they will love you no matter what. Even if the other parent leaves when the child is an infant you spend the 18 years being angry and them magically on their 18th birthday you are not angry anymore? oh wait there is the college thing so after they graduate college you are not angry anymore you just turn it off? Why put yourself through all that physical/mental damage to your health for what to wake up one day after 20 years and say ok kids are all set I am not angry anymore?

So anger gives you an emotion to cling to and cherish. Rather than the love you once shared now you can be angry!!!

When you punish someone ... who else suffers.

I punish the 12 yr old no tv that means the other can't watch it either.

I tell them they are grounded who suffers? me now I have to entertain them.

You punish your ex ... your children suffer in one way or another ... watching you be miserable... hearing daddy complain ...

I wonder... If person A wants to see person b suffer and be punished endlessly for hurting person A, did person A ever REALLY love person b? Or was it just the illusion of love, based on what person b did for person a.

Endless bitterness, endless lust for vengeance doesnt describe love.

Also responded to being punished for the rest of your life with a jokey post about even if you kill some one, your punishment is over in 30 years or so, got a ludicrous reply comparing an affair to marijuana!!!!!(Remember the old WHY do you think they call it DOPE commercial??? Why do you call HIM DOPE!! LOL )Ah, to err is human , to Forgive is divine......Guess some folks have no divinity......Eternal damnation for being unhappy and making a mistake...

I posted this on the other thread, but the thread has gotton sooo long I decided to add it here.....

Posted by theotherside (My Page) on Wed, Mar 26, 08 at 20:23
"you had this child, you made a decision to be a mom to her and be in her life. You can't move away with your new BF. You have to stay. That's what you signed up for when you gave birth to her."
Yes, parents who have an affair, or who move away from their children, SHOULD be punished for the rest of their lives. Absolutely. "

WELL......

So since my dh's ex had an affair and then moved away from her kids how should she be punished??

Should we tell them what a piece of useless waste she is? Should we change all phone numbers so she can not call? Should we bribe them to not visit her this summer? Please do tell how we should "punish" her.

I would really like to know what "punishment" fits the crime of adultry to your dh and abandoning your children?

Mom2 I am guessing....

A. The man chased her around and she couldn't resist temptation. Now he supports her completely and doesn't feel the need to visit her children. Claims lower income to get away with not paying support.

B. She has money and the man wooed her away from her husband and family. Now she supports him while he does consulting work by the pool.

Either way BM could not resist __________ she should not be held accountable for her actions only men can be held to a higher standard ....

So to answer your questions

A. Hubby should not have married you he should wait by the doorstep for any day now she will come running back to him.

B. Hubby should rake her over the coals for every penny she is worth and then some. And spend many days being envious of her new guy out by the pool.

Well she has no money, but I do think that her bf does not feel the need to see her children so he got the brilliant idea to move far away with her and their new kids! And he had to knock her up again....maybe he is trying to have more than 3 kids with her so he can compete with how many she had with my dh??

I think she hoped that dh would be waiting by the doorstep....as soon as she saw that I came along she wanted to move right back in with my dh!! Funny how he is not good enough when they were together but as soon as another woman was interested she wanted him back.

But I am sure in TOS and KKNY's eyes this is different than their ex dh's.....because this woman is a bm and should be put on a pedestal for whatever reason! LMAO

If you have a conscience, having to live with the guilt over having an affair and abandoning your children is probably more punishment than anything anyone else could do to you.

I love my exH. I both believe and hope he does have a conscience - otherwise he was not the man that he seemed to be for his entire adult life. If he has a conscience, he would of necessity be living with a great deal of guilt.

I guess it's all a matter of your own experiences, current situation, and how this influence your perceptions.

For example, for the woman who's husband is not currently cheating on her, the twisted, psycho, bitter revenge fantasies on the part of the ex-wife/BM are an outrageous, pathetic reaction to such a relatively innocent and forgiveable "brain fart" as hurting and abandoning your family for another woman. After all, that's really NOTHING ---just a "little tryst"--- compared to the horrendously selfish, manipulative, thoughtless, heartless cruelty of a minor child who dares to avoid saying "good morning" to you on the way out the door to school or, heaven forbid, has some more friends over for one evening than was anticipated. The husband's former goof-up is attributed to a mid-life crisis or to a deficient ex-wife: the poor ol' dude just HAD to get away from such an insane b!tch, so his adultery is almost heroic, an act of valiant self-preservation. The stepchild's sins against humanity are seen to require police or court intervention and/or possible banishment of *somebody* from the home (either the heartlessly rude stepchild or the sacagely victimized stepmother).

Guess it all depends on *where* we're sitting, when we sit in judgement. And each side sees the other as sitting in a catbird seat!

Serenity, you are so right.

What amazes me, is how many second wives/SMs will eventually divorce their current DH, and say to themselves, gee maybe first wife wasnt nuts. I have seen it happen.

That is the point isn't it? For people to share their experiences, not their self righteous judgements.

Of course if you have never been a stepmother well it is going to be impossible for you to share your experience because you have none. If you have never been the BM left by an Ex for another woman, well then you can't really share experience you don't have. If you have never had to learn how to share your children with a stepmother for the best benefit of the children well again no experience.

So what is YOUR point?

On the subject of self-righteous judgement, allow me to provide some additional info:

-I have known all my life that my Dad cheated on my mom (and even slapped her once or twice) before their divorce
-I have also forgiven my Dad for this and managed to have a pretty good relationship with him despite interference from my SM.
-Of course, every now and then it pops into my head how he treated my mom way back when... And occasionally I have found it unfair, yes, I admit it, to be aware of how he has changed and does not do those hurtful things to his current wife. Particularly when SM will brag and say things to me like: "I consider it a real point of pride that your Dad has never cheated on me or hit me", or "Your Dad has been happier in the last 15 years [with her] than he's ever been in his entire life." Yes, this hurts...
-...But, I at least can be thankful that he is no longer the abusive person to females that he once was, becasue it means I can have a dceent relationship with him (not perfect, but decent).
-As a general principle, I do not sit in judgement of people who cheat or condemn them to perdition the rest of their lives. I realize it's a complex phenomonenon, having most to do with one's own insecurity/stages in life than any partner they happen to be with at the time.
-Let me repeat that: People don't cheat "because of" who they're with. People cheat because of their own inability to envision an alternative in fulfilling some need of theirs (for example, novelty or attention or risk-taking behavior) that *they* cannot meet with a committed partner, ANY partner. CHEATING IS RARELY THE PARTNER'S "FAULT", except perhaps in the most extreme, rare and imprisoning types of abusive situations.
-I, myself, have cheated on a boyfriend, and no I'm not proud of it, but I'm not self-loathing either. Yes, I think people can change.
-But I also know how much it hurts to be cheated on (I have done it, and had it done to me), and especially within a marriage, and especially with children involved, it can take a long time to recover a sense of self-worth and trust.
-And I also know that adultery does more damage to a family than a teenage SK who's occasionally distant or commits a typical teenage infraction such as breaking curfew or even mouthing off at their parents once in a blue moon.
-Finally, I fully admit that these opinions of mine are based on my own experiences and the biases of those experiences. Perhaps, indeed, it would be different if I were a stepmother. I am not at all without empathy for the difficulty of a stepmother's role, especially when the family is less than perfect, which most families are. There are times when I genuinely do feel sorry for an SP who is TRULY being put through one ringer or another. I acknowledge, though, that in reaction to SOME SM complaints, it is very hard *for me personally* to feel too much pity. Most particularly when there seem to be wildly different standards and expectations among members of the stepfamily unit.

"Most particularly when there seem to be wildly different standards and expectations among members of the stepfamily unit."

And THIS is why blending two families is so difficult. THIS is why step families come to a forum like this. THIS is why they are asking other step parents for opinions on situations that they may never have been in before, but others have.

Your opinions are your opinions. I see through your opinions that you are a step child that has been hurt by an 'evil' step mother. Well, your step mother isn't here asking for opinions or advice. She isn't trying to blend you into her family. But those of us that are trying to make a better situation for our step family, well, sorry if our 'complaints' touch a nerve in you. You are biased that step moms are evil. I'm sorry for your situation, but most of the step parents here are here to make things better, not figure out how to get rid of a step child.

"And I also know that adultery does more damage to a family than a teenage SK who's occasionally distant or commits a typical teenage infraction such as breaking curfew or even mouthing off at their parents once in a blue moon."

and when the SM posts their problem with those minor infractions, it's to get advice on how to deal with it. I know how I would deal with MY kids, but when you aren't the parent, it makes it difficult. The easy answer, which doesn't fit, is to say 'let the bio parent in the home deal with it' but this is my home too. We all have to learn to get along. Trying to live in one house with two sets of rules for each set of kids would be chaotic.

I still don't know what your point is either.

Well Said Ima!! Every situation here is different -- I personally am a SM to 2 boys who's BM is beyond the realm of 'deadbeat' which is a night and day difference from kkny or tos's situation with their x husbands...which gives the opportunity for many perspectives. This forum will only benefit those of us who come here for advice if we throw less stones and more suggestions, which sometimes is easier said then done ;)

Just a note...in my original post, I was being a bit sarcastic when I referred to an affair as "a little tryst;" I suspect most folks who have been unfaithful and want to attempt to repair the breach in trust they have caused in an effort to maintain their marriage might be tempted to minimize their actions --- (so the affair becomes a tryst).

Also, I attempted to be very intentional in leaving out any reference to gender in my post...so the offender might easily be either female or male; the injured party may be either the wife or the husband. I think you missed that part of my post, Serenity.

Well wry ... :)

Most of "us" know women never cheat ... it only the dirty rotten scoundrel of a man who would cheat on his wife and leave his family ....

Women never cheat or leave their children its just unheard of!!!!

As far as not saying good morning .. it sets the standard for the rest of the relationship... no kids don't have to say it but its rude if they don't ... how would you like it if you walked into work everyday saying good morning and certain people ignored you and the same thing happend day after day after day.... you would start to think is something wrong with me or are they mad at me did I piss them off and many other thoughts.

Serenity ... I understand you are _________ with your SM... but after 18 years ... you can't let anything go? how many more years are you going to be angry at her.... you have forgiven your dad for his mistakes but you can't forgive her? .... I think if TOS continues to dog her ex's wife her children will be tormented like you are.

Now I will be blunt..... your dad is dying he may live another couple years or so but eventually he will be gone ... then you will be battling her over stuff and you will continue to be ________ with her forever even though you will have no reason to interact with her... you will carry that anger forever for what? you are already following in your dad's footsteps. Maybe your children if you ever choose to have them will make you feel guilty the rest of your life for something you did to them.

Time to move on ... the anger is just not worth it.

"I'm sorry for your situation, but most of the step parents here are here to make things better, not figure out how to get rid of a step child."

Ima, I agree that *most* are. Everyone on here is an individual. Some posts from SP's have struck me as far more resentment-filled than others. Everyone has tehir own problems, and their own proposed solutions to those problems, and their own blockages as terms of what they can or can't see to get perspective on. When I offer a critical response to some facet of step-parental decision-making, it's not meant to be applied to every step-parent on this forum. I don't lump you all together. Yes, there are soemtimes certan tendecies, based on issues that tend to be classically divisive... but on these boards I see a wide variety of reactions and strategies, some of which I agree with more than others.

And Cawfe, I agree that people should always try to move beyond pain and "let things go". Which is what I am trying to do with my SM, but she makes it extremely difficult. (I never posted a follow-up about my recent visit, but I will later... in a nutshell, I did everything under the sun to try and offer her olive branches, conversation, open-ness... all being met with huffiness and nasty comments. And no acknowledgement one way or the other of my "congratulations on your wedding" card and the personal, lengthy message I wrote inside it, or my offer of celebratory dinner. It takes two to make peace.) I struggle with trying to "move forward" with her every single day.

I, like many of us on here, try to keep my expressions of my anger in this situation confined to venting: to friends, on this board, etc.... It's very hard to just make all the pain & anger go away, in the face of my dad dying (but, paradoxically, this is the very reason I am doing my best to do just that!) and all the emotions that is stirring up, and my SM's many continued attempts to push me out of my dad's life, ESPECIALLY now.

Again, I want to repeat: I am aware of my biases, and aware that many of the SP's on here (and probably most SP's in general) are decent caring people who genuinely want things to improve. I have made a point of saying as much to various SP's on here whom, it's clear to me, are doing positive caring things. I am also aware of how difficult it can be to fight an "evil stepmother" stereotype. My intention is not to make any blanket condemnations of any specific people on this board. I do tend to point out the "worst case scenario" that *could* result from a certain trajectory of thinking... or the way so-and-so could be *interpreted* by sensitive SK's such as me. Some actions are thoughtless, whether on the part of SK's, BM's, DH's, SP'.... doesn't necessarily always mean the *whole person* is awful, or that they always make the wrong choice, or that they mean to. There are some SP's who resent the kids and wish them away, and sometimes they are ambivalent about this and sometimes they have no conscience about it whatsoever. Likewise, there are some SK's who deliberately exploit their parents' feelings of guilt and/or have no sense of independent responsibility, sometimes, again, without a conscience, sometimes torn b/c they, too, feel guilty.

My point is that I truly don't think that as a group, SP's are ANY WORSE than anyone else, just b/c they're SP's. I admit to having had experiences that incline me to hyper-vigilance toward certain tendencies, which I point out here. I simply haven't had the experiences of being the SM and, say, saddled with excessive responsibilities the DH won't help with, or besieged by a drug-addled BM or a kid who refuses to say Word One to me. I read your experiences, and as I said, feel genuinely sorry for you undergoing many of these things. Many of those things TRULY SUCK, but soem suck more than others. Other things are just par for the course having kids in your life. I have my own opinions about what is or isn't a major deal to complain about, but those are my opinions. When I minimize something as trivial that you complain about, my true intent is to try and put it in perspective so you see the bigger picture and so you're less upset about it. Sometimes, yes, it gets frustrating to hear what sound *to me* like some of the more minor complaints, and that's when I get sarcastic. I apologize if this offends... I can only hope, though, that you take from it a perspective of what it might feel like to the SK... if for no other reason than to get an inside view on it and hopefully pre-empt a painful conflict in your own situation. I'm not here to attack. Emotional as it can get on here (and sometimes, for all of us, it can hit below the belt), I still think it's informative and enlightening for all of us. Think of all the folks that literally have NO CLUE what the other "side" is thinking...

well serenity, I understand where you are coming from. When I read a post from another step parent that you, as a step child, would think is harsh or critical, I can appreciate that the person writing that is doing so at a time when they are probably frustrated and emotionally charged and I can understand that, being a step parent. I can put myself in their shoes and say, 'yeah, it sounds like a minor irritant but I've been there. I know how it feels to be expected to do XYZ for my step child and when I say good morning, she rolls her eyes at me and walks away.'

Once, when I went out of my way to get tickets to the fair (saving & using my own money because my DH said it was too expensive) and took SD with me to buy the tickets for father's day weekend so she knew I bought enough for all both me & DH, my daughter and SD. Then, we get to the fair & she has a bad attitude. She tells him loud enough for me to hear, that she didn't think "she" (meaning ME) was going to be there. If THAT's not rude, then what is? Sure, it may seem trivial or minor to some, but to other step parents that are expected or go out of their way on their own to make a step child happy, it's not minor. It hurts. (and as a mom, I would never let my child treat anyone that way, and that is an issue for the parent to deal with... sometimes, parents in divorce situations allow their children to get away with more because 'they've been through so much already'.) As a step mom, I also have the right to not let anyone treat me that way, even if their bio parents do. I let SD know that if she is going to treat me that way, I don't have to buy tickets for anything ever again. I don't have to do anything for her. In fact, we left the fair when she said that. She cried & protested but never apologized to me. She was angry at me and of course, I am the evil step mom that ruined her fun. But, she has learned that she can't treat me that way. Is she sincere when she is nice to me now? I don't know. I don't care. I'm sincere when I do nice things for her and maybe someday, she will realize that I'm a nice step mom. I think she has. But there is no such thing as 'minor' when you are dealing with building a relationship with a child that isn't yours. If that bond isn't there, then what seems minor to an outsider can be the straw that broke the camels back... to a step parent or a step child. (just ask my step daughter when her dad tells her no and she keeps asking her, and finally I say 'your dad already said no.' and she glares at me for an hour. I think a comment is minor but she thinks it's HUGE when I say it.)

"Think of all the folks that literally have NO CLUE what the other "side" is thinking..."

I can understand just about every point of view, not just those of step parents. I am a step mother, but before that I was/am a mother, and before that I was/am a step child, and I have also been a mother that sent a child to visit dad and a step mom, so I can relate to how that feels. I've also been cheated on, even though I wasn't married to him for twenty or twenty-five years.

While I don't think you lump all of us together, you seem to defend and side with the ones that do. I've tried to not lump you into their group either. I appreciate that you offer the step child side of things. I've occasionally given my opinions from the step child perspective but I am not here to represent the step child. My experience in being a step child, has helped form my opinion in being the kind of step mom I have chosen to be. and when I offer an opinion from the perspective of being a step mom, you can be sure that it includes with it, things I learned as a step child.

One thing I did find very interesting in all my research is that as soon as the "kids" became stepparents themselves, they totally got it, and every last one of them did a 100% turn around in their behavior toward their stepparent. That says a lot.

Serenity, I must say I really enjoy your posts, I find a lot of them brilliant and most well thought out, and actually have found a helpful presepective from your experiences, things I hadnt thought of from the SK side..The way you turn a phrase made me wonder if you were a professional writer at times..And I must concede if I have such a junky Ex to deal with for 6 years, you have had your junky stepmom for much longer, sigh ,advice to move on is easier said than done....The best.....

"Is she sincere when she is nice to me now? I don't know. I don't care."

This is one (of many) ways in which we differ. I DO care. I don't want anyone, not my child, not anyone else, to be nice to me unless they are sincere.

I used to be idealistic that way, tos.

Then my life got busy, & my nerves got frayed, & it was just too exhausting & time-consuming to acknowledge & speak about & deal with chronic issues that weren't going to change, ever, every time I had to talk to someone.

Now, like ima, I don't care either;
no matter how insincere a person's "social smile" is, I've made the executive decision to accept it without adding complications.

I used to say that I didn't want to limit my relationships, personal, social, or business, to formulas.

Now I'm begging, "somebody just tell me the formula!"

I'm sure that there are people in life that are nice and exchange pleasantries just to be nice. They ask you how you are doing or how your day is, when they could care less. It might be part of their job. Please don't tell me you are one of THOSE people that unloads all your problems in life on the person who casually asks you how you are doing???? Do they get to hear all about your rotten day you might be having or how miserable you are at the moment, instead of 'fine, how are you?'? Or I guess you would be a happier person if everyone just went about their day and not say anything to you because they really don't care how you are. Either way, how sad.

Do you think it matters if my SD says a sincere good morning any more than it matters if the girl at the bank says 'have a nice day'? I don't. The bank teller says it all day long and she probably doesn't think twice about it. I'm sure she doesn't care to know that my day is sucking, but it sure beats her ignoring me and yelling 'next' to the next customer in line, which would make me feel that I'm not a valued customer. Quite the same with my step daughter. I'd rather have an insincere pleasantry of 'good morning' rather than a glare, eye roll, or dirty look. If the teller is rude to me, I might change banks or go to a different teller/branch. If the step child is rude to me, we're pretty much stuck with it. I'm not divorcing the most wonderful man I've ever met because his daughter won't say good morning to me. But, I also won't cook her French toast or pancakes either or go out of my way to do things that she likes that her daddy can't do, her mommy won't do and I am able to do. Whether she is sincere or not, it's teaching her how to get along in the world. She may have to work with people that she doesn't like someday and she's gotta learn how to be, at the very least, pleasant.

Gee TOS, don't you teach your kids that???

Actually, my bank tellers greet me by name, we chat about my job and my kids and their kids and books and televisions shows, etc., so that probably isn't a good example of dealing with strangers.

It is fine to be civil to strangers. That is not the same thing as sincere. It matters much more to me if my kids are sincere when they say good morning than if the grocery store clerk does.

By the way, are you saying that your husband can't make French toast or pancakes?

Can't and won't are two totally different things... :)

So children should be more civil to strangers than to people living in the same house? Really sad when strangers treat you better than family members.

Serenity ... then tell the woman to GFH. If your dad doesn't stand up for you ... then tell him the same thing.. GFY.

It took months for me to "break" my SC of ... (getting off the bus) Did you buy anything new? Hi child how was your day? Mine was good thank you for asking, They now get off the bus and say .. Hi cawfe how was your day? good thank you for asking and how was yours? good.... Did we get anything new!... :)

Ima said: "But there is no such thing as 'minor' when you are dealing with building a relationship with a child that isn't yours. If that bond isn't there, then what seems minor to an outsider can be the straw that broke the camels back..."

I have a pretty good relationship with my stepmom, but we have certainly had our lumps and bumps along the way.
When Dad and SM first married, I was 18 and still living at home. I liked my SM in general, but it was really bothering me that my dad had no time for his own four children anymore (even though we were no longer children). My dad drives long-hauls, so isn't home all that much. I would try to spend time with him, but SM kept putting wrenches in it - ie: "No, there's no time for you to have lunch with Ceph, we have to go to Home Depot" and that sort of thing.
One day, he was on the road and she was on the phone with him. He got roaming charges if he accepted calls, so we had to wait for him to call us, so while she was saying goodbye, I asked if I could talk to him too. She said yes, and then promptly hung up without giving me the phone. Minor, sure... But it was my last straw and exploded into one helluva screaming match, including me shouting "We already don't have Mom, stop trying to take Dad away from us too!"
Oddly, things got a lot better after that blowout and she stopped wedging herself between us and our dad!

I can totally understand how "minor" to other people is "major" in stepfamilies!