If she has no visitation on the books...I would go with she can see them in your hometown for a visit...but not take them around the BF. The sudden wetting is very, very concerning. There is a serious lack of safety in her environment and it would be short work to get a restraining order that restrains contact between the BF and the kids based on his historical abuse. They are rarely not granted and that would ensure that if you did decide to send them, he could not be around them. The mother sounds like no prize and might be best left as a memory to the kids rather than an influence. Failure to protect her kids from the abuse is a form of abuse.

Problem is the kids will not want to talk about it to anyone. They mentioned it to us and then said that they were told "what happens at moms is not supposed to be anyones business" according to their mom. We of course told them that nothing is supposed to be secret from us, but they begged us not to talk to their mom about it. They are worried about making her mad or sad. Funny thing is that in the beginning of my dh's divorce the bf was not supposed to be around the kids (some thing in the papers about no members of opposite sex that are not related to kids being around-meaning that mom and dad were not supposed to bring bf's and gf's around kids at the time) and bm still had bf around kids all the time. Courts did nothing.

I agree that the mom is abusing her kids by letting this go on. Unfortunately we were not there and do not know how much of the kids side is accurate and not exaggerated. Also, with bm present in a restraining order hearing the kids may fold on the issues and not say anything or lie to keep her from being mad.

My sd is the same way, bm does awful things and she has a hard time standing up to her. I am realizing that this is a normal reaction for children in abuse/neglect situations. They want so bad for that parent to like them that they do not want to cross them for fear that they will be gone for good.

My opinion is if court papers do not say she has visitation then don't give her any. Avoid the topic for as long as possible, which if she rarely calls will be easy. When and if she finally hounds you about it tell her you feel the kids are not "safe" at her home with bf. If you feel that you can not completely deny visitation then as t_p says...suggest a short hometown visit. This way your close by in case of emergency. Maybe even give most responsible skid a cell phone for them to keep turned off unless they need to use it. BM does not need to know about cell and they are only to use it to call you in emergency situation if no other phone is available. Otherwise tell them to use bm's cell or hotel phone to call you if they just want to say hi. I know it sounds sneaky, but if you must let them go at least you know they can call you if things get unsafe.

"Problem is the kids will not want to talk about it to anyone. They mentioned it to us and then said that they were told "what happens at moms is not supposed to be anyones business" according to their mom. We of course told them that nothing is supposed to be secret from us, but they begged us not to talk to their mom about it. They are worried about making her mad or sad."

Mom2 - this is so similar to what we deal with - you've seen the What To Do thread. My DH was actually initially given emergency custody due to an abusive boyfriend and mom's inability to protect her daughter. To this day, 8 years and several men later we still worry about her judgment as she has yet to demonstrate she can put her daughter's needs before her own. We do have the comfort that she is only 20 minutes away when with mom, though she was 3 hours away prior to DH getting custody. I can't imagine being in your position.

So what do do about it? As there is no required visitation I think I would suggest visitation in your town. If they can't afford a hotel is there somewhere they could all camp together? If you feel you can't say no to them traveling, I would allow nothing longer than a week. I would say she has to promise not to have the BF around, but we all know that won't happen. There isn't any chance of the grandparents taking time off for a week and the kids staying with them and visiting with mom is there?

What also needs to be addressed is SD's feeling that she has to "save" her mom. She needs to understand that her mom is a big girl and no matter what SD does mom will make her own choices. I know from experience what it's like to have an SD who feels like she has to take care of her mom. It's not easy to show them that regardless of what they do or say some people have a one track mind - and that track revolves around what they want.

I feel for you all.

Are these kids in any sort of counseling to deal with these issues? When SD was younger we had issues and concerns with her visitations with BM but had no choice but to let her go because of the CO. She was not only told she couldn't tell us... she was threatened if she did tell us anything. In fact, one time it was as simple as she slipped and told me they went to the park while she was at her mom's house. She then went into a full panic because she had told me this and said that she was told by her mommy that she could never, never tell us ANYTHING that ever happens when she is with her mommy. This is a HUGE red flag! SD also felt like she had to "save" her BM because of BM's poor choices.

Anyway, to make a long story short... after counseling to help SD learn how to deal with the manipulations from BM and how to talk to us about important or dangerous situations as well as helping SD learn to have a "normal" relationship with BM instead of an "anxious attachment" type... it has made a world of difference. I think SD is much better adjusted to life in general than she would have been without counseling. At first counseling is just going to help the children learn that it is okay to talk about things that are concerning or scary for them and they won't get in trouble if they do talk about them. It may take quite awhile before they really bring up the issues that they need help learning to cope with/deal with.

I have to agree with other posters on this issue. If there is no court order requiring visitation, there is a reason for that! I would require that all visitations are done in your hometown for shorter visits.

if there is no visitations, you should not let kids go. BM can come and see kids in your town. Bed wetting is very very alarming. Under no circumstances should kids stay there. But she can come and visit.

Well bm called me today to ask about kids spring break dates. I put her on with my dh who informed her about the fact that he did not feel comfortable sending the kids there because of past behaviors by her bf, but suggested her visiting here. She began sobbing about how she can't afford to fly and stay here, especially with having other children at home with her (not sure why that should be our problem). She then began yelling at my dh that he is seperating her from "her babies". My dh ended up hanging up. Later, BM's father called my dh to "try to talk some sense into him". My dh stood his ground about the situation. Ended in BM's father saying his lawyer will contact us!

We don't have the money to go through some court trial on this, but we don't feel safe sending the kids there with what has previously happened. If a lawyer does contact us should we share our reasons with him/her and hope he talks sense into the bm's family, or should we save the info for a court battle if it goes there?

I would not talk to the attorney - that's like sharing your battle strategy with the enemy. I would start looking into the different programs states have for free/low cost legal assistance. Many states have free mediation also. Try calling your county's family services division, or the state bar. If you do hear from an attorney for mom, just ask that all communication be put in writing and don't give up anything. Remember, they are there to get paid not mediate. They aren't going to go back to their paying client and say dad is right, you suck as a parent and I won't help you . . . unless of course, the mom is Britney Spears. Her attorneys just keep firing her!!

Is there anything in writing that states why mom has no visitation? Do you have that to fall back on if you are challenged?

I don't know what your financial situation is but if you think she would take you to court, have you considered offering to pay her travel expenses & motel for a few days visit? It would be less expensive than an attorney. (and offering to help her come visit may show that your DH is trying to be reasonable given his concerns) If she refuses and files to go back to court, at least you made the offer.

If you can, document everything (incidents) regarding your concerns. and like Martha suggested, if the court commented on anything, can you still get the transcripts from past hearings?

I suspect that the reason it doesnt specify visitation is because it wasnt written in to the divorce decree.

Most divorce decrees are written with wording such as " resonable visitation upon mutual agreement by both parties".
Many people, when divorcing, think they are going to be able to work stuff like visits out without rancour, only to find themselves bogged in situations such as the OP has here.

Mom will probably take this to court to get visits specified. She will most likely get what she is looking for, visits on specific dates that are inflexible. She will also most likely be allowed to have the visits at her house. THe OP will probably not win in a court situation over this issue.

If the children are being abused, there is a much better chance of having it required that moms bf not be there. BUT, and this is a huge BUT...it would be extremely hard to prove that abuse in court. THe fact that the kid is bedwetting after coming back will hold absolutely no water in an abuse claim. What the children claimed the bf did is serious, but the children are not likely going to be called to testify in court about it, and allegations made by parents against the other parent, particularly when the other parent is taking them to court for visitation, are likely to be held with a grain of salt, or even a whole salt shaker.

Anyway, you can deny mom the right to take the kids out of state this time, but it will most certainly be challenged in court. You will probably lose. Is it worth the time, stress, and toll it will take on you, hubby and kids to fight over these visits? you dont say how old the kids are. It might be better to mention the things you are concerned about to mom. If they are true, she will probably try harder to make sure those kind of things dont happen, since she knows you found out about them.

Kathline,

"The fact that the kid is bedwetting after coming back will hold absolutely no water in an abuse claim."

Is this pun intended? ;-)

"She began sobbing about how she can't afford to fly and stay here, especially with having other children at home with her (not sure why that should be our problem)."

What I'm a little lost about, if she can't afford to fly here, how was she planning on funding the kids' travel costs? What about the cost of doing things with them while they were there, feeding them, etc?

If she can't afford to fly, could she take the bus? Greyhounds are certainly cheaper (although less convenient) than air travel.

I realize that this must be a rotten situation for her and I understand why she's upset... But I think you and DH are right to have a firm stance that it wouldn't be good for the kids to go stay in a potentially dangerous situation for the summer!

Thanks for all your advice. So far we have not been contacted by an attorney, so maybe grandparents were just blowing off steam. They have to know how awful their daughters bf is, they lived with them for a while! I am hoping that she just lets this go and makes plans to come out here. I know they both have friends out here, maybe they can make arrangements to stay with friends instead of hotel costs. Then it will be cheaper than flying 3 kids out there because her 2 other kids are under 2, so one can be on her lap and one on her bf's lap....so thats only 2 airfares instead of 3 kids roundtrip and then an adult flying roundtrip both times with them. If they come out here we won't throw a fit about bf being around kids because they will be close and the oldest can call us if there is a problem and we will be right there instead of thousands of miles away!

If they do file for a modification ... also have hubby file a modification....

We learned real quick who ever files gets heard ... hubby filed got everything he asked for mom's side was not taken into consideration because she had not filed for her own modification.

Judge stated in his decision mom's requests was not taken into consideration because she had not filed a request for modification on her own behalf.

No, it is not always who filed - sometimes it is who has the more expensive lawyer, especially if the lawyer and the judge/magistrate know each other.

Neither party had a lawyer.

Not everything is a conspiracy!

Well said cawfe....it seems like no matter what advice anyone on here gives someone always has to pick it apart....

I think that sometimes who has the better lawyer can make a difference. And TOS didnt say it was this time, but a general statement.

"it seems like no matter what advice anyone on here gives someone always has to pick it apart...." -- got that right.

The fact that my exH had an expensive lawyer who was in bed (figuratively speaking) with the court made a HUGE difference.

Well if you went to court every 4-6 months like these two do ... its no wonder neither one can afford a lawyer anymore.

I would have to get a job to help pay for the lawyer. :)

It can make a small difference if the lawyer is familiar or friendly with the judge, but a judge has to be able to justify his rulings as a matter of law. The merits of the case have to stand on their own. Judges are given "discretion" in some matters but they have to have a rationale for making their decisions, in case it's appealed. They can't simply give their buddy what they want with no explanation behind it.

In the courts here, the law and motion calendar is heard only on the filings. One party files a motion and the other side files a response (basically their motion) and the court can rule on just the pleadings, without asking the parties anything. If they want the court to know anything or present evidence, they have to include it in their motion or response. Only if it gets to trial, does the judge hear evidence or testimony.

I spent $18k during my first custody battle with my son's father (that lasted seven years) and the case with my SD has cost us $13k so far (which also includes our attorney handling my other son's child support case). We are really reluctant to go back to court again. We've got another ten years before SD is 18. I am a huge supporter of mediation and sometimes, it's worth it to hire a private mediator.

Cawfecup,

That is really a let them eat cake atittude toward TOS who supports a number of children with no help.

And to say "oh I would have to get a job"

Ima, you asked for consideration, but I guess it only goes one way here.

kkny, what are you talking about?

The court appointed mediator gives up and sends it to the judge to make his decision. On exactly what you said the motions filed if not on the original motion it cannot be discussed that day ....

This time we included everything under the sun and then some. Who pays for what, exact times and dates for pick ups and drops offs, vacation weeks, Parental hospital stays, sick days, non-school days, school days, every holiday, & birthdays, you name it ..its in there I asked for ideas on what to include in November filed with the courts soon after. They received the new order October 25th... she filed for a modification Nov. 12th. Hubby's response was filed Dec 12th. They got back next week ...

She does not want to pay child support every time they go back to court she wants it reduced or voided. This time included. Hubby wrote in his motion why it should be increased... even though he doesn't want it increased just doesn't want it decreased. He receives less than $5 a day per child.

it's not cawfe's responsibility to pay for the lawyer, so what is wrong with saying "she would have to get a job"? It's ridiculous to be back in court that soon, and I would think that the judge is going to be irritated with whoever files right away. It uses up the courts time and unless there is something serious, like abuse or drug/alcohol use, the court doesn't like to see nitpicking. And I would imagine that they would not be impressed with a mom that wants to lower or stop her support payments just three weeks after it was ruled on.

Ima, it meant the way cawfe jumped on TOS was mean. But I think you know that. But as usual, as much as you may ask for kindness to SMs, none for the moms. I love this board. It incentiveses me to type another list of extras for X to pay for. Heah, if SMs can sit home all day, only fair.

well, while we are talking about the real world here Absolutely a good lawyer and/or a lawyer knowing the judge can make the difference in winning or losing your case... That is one of the reasons I was so very picky about finding a lawyer for us and went so far as to call on my lawyer friends for referrals as to who would suit us best in court. Let's not be naive here.

But, on the same token why in the world would cawfe want to get a job soley to have to pay for a lawyer to fight someone who files a motion every other month or so. And I really really don't understand the problem with her being a SAHM... is it jealousy? I wish that we could afford to have myself or my husband be a SAHP. Unfortundately, at least right now it is not an option... but it would solve so many problems like day care and transportation... and cleaning the house at 10 oclock at night. And to be honest with the price of daycare it almost would be cheaper for one of us to stay at home with the exception of we wouldnt be able to afford health insurance.

I don't think anyone jumped all over TOS. TOS is saying her husband walked away better because he had an expensive lawyer. and cawfe is saying that they don't even have a lawyer because BM drags it back to court every few months (which is ridiculous and expensive) and nobody is picking on tos. If she feels she was treated unfairly, she can file an appeal or complaint and if the case is reviewed, the judge that made any decisions has to have justification for his rulings. I'm not saying that she got a fair deal, but Judges have to be held accountable if they do something wrong. You can't make a blanket statement that Judges can be bought or they would put a friendship above the interest of children. I think you are right when you say a good lawyer makes a difference, I've had bad lawyers and they can cost you a lot.. maybe tos had a bad lawyer. (my bad lawyer had his investigator take pictures of beer cans my son's father collected in a can on the side of his house; He was trying to prove he drank around my son, all he proved was they recycle)

and I don't sit at home all day, I work and BM sits at home all day. (yet she can never seem to make here on time to get her DD and then says it's my fault... maybe she's so busy making her list too, that she can't be here on time to get her "baby")

It may have been mean ... but how many more years is she going to "complain" she got a raw deal... Whats that old saying poop or get off the pot.

If my hubby and the x can go to court every 3 months I am sure others can too.

It was meant basically for you KKNY ... since you love to criticize me for being a SAHM ... while you have a "au pair"(for a 15yr old)... I wish I could afford an au pair then I would be running out the door to work it would be easier than being home all day. Atleast "maybe" I could "possibly" have an adult conversation instead of being bored out of my mind.

Waiting for mom to call to change her plans as I have said many times over there are days I feel like her ex-wife because she calls on me for everything related to the children. Who is their pediatrician? what size shoes do they wear? can ____ wear a size 12?

I have said before and I'll say it again... putting 3 children in daycare would be comparable to my salary and when hubby and I got married we decided it would be better for me to be home because mom was such a flake and we couldn't count on her to be around when she was supposed to be never mind if there was an emergency. Second thought maybe we should put them in daycare and have that factored into the support order.

Can I get a copy of that list for his ex to pay as well? Since she can sit home all day too.

I'm sorry I missed something, what does an au pair do for a 15 year old? (you're kidding right?)

Here you rarely get to see an actual judge - usually it is just a magistrate. A magistrate who told my exH that he was too old to expect to get a job (in his early/mid fifties). A magistrate who told me that supporting the children was primarily my responsibility, and that my exH was only required to contribute what he could comfortably afford.

The aupair's most important job is taking DD to school and back. We have no school buses where I live, and I leave for work early and come home after school is out. Needless to say her dad wont help with drivng.

Dang TOS - I'd be asking for a review of that order in a heartbeat.