ceph, I didn't mean to ask about his teachers' qualifications, I meant what is his disability? I guess when i type in a hurry I make no sense. :)

ADHD is usually not enough for a resource room. It used to fall under "health impaired" in my state, but not anymore. You have to have something else besides ADHD to qualify.

Both of you momof4 and ceph, you sound like every involved parents or stepparents. I wish everybody was like you.

The resource room here usually has a full time teacher and is used for kids who are falling behind to work on catching up, for kids who are ahead of the curve so that they don't get bored, for kids with behavioral or learning disabilites to help them get on the right track, for kids with speech impediments (like a lisp) to practice, for kids who they think might need glasses or transfer to an advanced program to go for further assessment.
So pretty much everyone who isn't dead centre on average goes to it at some point in our school district.
Due to funding cuts, a lot of the smaller schools now share one resource room teacher per two schools, but luckily my area places high value on the resource room!!

My DDs extremely highly rated school has about one-third of the students in a resource room. Virtually all attend regular classes, but have one period in the resource room, where they have special help as needed. The school tries to wean them off the second semester of their senior year.

Here you cannot be in a resource room just because you fall behind or need glasses or are advanced etc. One needs to have documented disability and individual education plan according to whatever disability one migh have.

That's why I was suprised that simply having ADHD would qualify for resource room. This is not considered to be a disability unless it is accompanied by something else. If ADHD is severe, child might be protected by civil rights act which guarantees him accommodations in the regular classroom but no resource room.

I suspect that OP's child has something else along with ADHD. Although it might be different in Canada.

kkny, one third sounds a bit much. Average percentage of special needs population is 10%. Low socio-economic areas might have up to 15. OK, maybe there is some district somewhere with 20%. Unless she attends special needs school, (which she obviously doesn't) there are no schools with 30% special ed. population.

In my DDs school, if parents want child in resource room, they test and test and test if needed to come up with something.

Honestly, everyone is happy, the teachers, the students in RR, and the students not in.

You don't have to be on an IEP in my state to go to the resource room. One of my children who was on a 504 was assigned to the resource room for a couple of periods a week, but asked to go during every study period because it was quieter, and they said fine.

I see, tos and kkny, it depends on a state. Our economy is currently so low that they try to keep special help to a minimum. In my experience only one 504 kid was ever in a RR for an hour a day and only because mom sued the district. Other than that you have to have documented disability no matter what parents or kids want.

The incremental cost of putting one more child in resource room is negligible, because the resource rooms here are rarely "full." Whether there are 8 or 9 kids in the room makes little difference. Getting therapies is more difficult, and largely depends on whether they already have a therapist in the school. Speech and language is really easy to obtain; adaptive P.E. is much harder. Getting them to pay for outside evaluations, outside therapy, or private school placement is even harder.

From what I have seen, it is easy to get even extensive services if the child is disrupting the class or the teacher is having a difficult time with him. If they are just sitting there quietly but not learning a thing because of their disability, it is a lot harder to get services.

Fd,

If I told you what my property taxes are you would faint. But it is worth it. This is a district that cares about all children, not just the high performers, and not just the trouble makers. There are about 120 children in my DDs grade, classes are frequently less than 20.

Last year her grades were not good, this year better.

I bring my lunch to work every day, I dont go to starbucks, etc. I dont buy books, I go to the library. I never go the movies. Entertaining is having people over for homecooked meals. Its worth it.

I believe you kkny. I live in a very afluent neighbourhood, it is very tough on me financially. Same reasons: schools. DD went to IB high school (got international baccalaureate diploma). They had no special needs children, you cannot get IB diploma if you have special needs. It was tough tough school, also small. But I am glad she didn't went to a cookie cutter high school-factory. Now college is easy for her compare to IB. Now I can move to cheaper area, I don't need to live in expensive areas anymore. I work in a very low socio-economic level area and I know how different are schools.

TOS, if there is a disability then there is no problem to get services, but it has to be accordingly evaluated. I agree that the quiet ones get overlooked. That's why there are more boys in special.ed. Girls often slip through cracks by being quiet and not disruptive.

fortunately, we have the magnet program here. And although I don't necessarily think it is accomplishing it's goal (better integration) it does allow us to pick and choose what schools we want our kids to go to. And, I learned (courtesy of my mom mostly) how to work the school system a long time ago. My mom used a friends address to get me into the high school she wanted me to go to. And then after the first year, we "moved" and once you are established at a school (as long as you are willing to provide transportation) you can stay at that school. Also, once one child is at a school you get sibling preference and all of your siblings automatically can go to the school... so it works.

And yes, there are laws that state students should have services but it would amaze you how little that matters to some of these people and how much they would rather stick these kids to the side then deal with it. I have schools that I have given equipment to for their students but it is like pulling teeth just to get them to give me a list of books that they need.... it is just ridiculous. I will never understand why these people become educators if they don't care and why we have people controlling the education system that don't have the brains of a 2 by 4. In this school system it is like choosing the best of the bad.

I talked to my BF last night about the Narnia idea with making some notes on what happened so that
a) he remembers what happened last week
b) we get to see if he's actually comprehending the story or just reading the words out loud
c) he gets some good practice for writing book reports and plot synopses in the grades ahead
My BF thinks this is a marvelous idea.

Last time I mentioned that I thought A__ could use some more toys at my BF's place, he said "I agree, but where would we put them? We don't have much usable space at the moment"... But, SUCCESS, yesterday I found that one of the large kitchen cupboards on the bottom is almost empty. So I suggested that we move the lonely pot and colander in with the other half empty cupboard and use that for temporary storage of toys and books for A__, and again he thinks it's a great idea.

This weekend we're going to try again for A__ to earn back the comfy chair. But lay it out from the second he gets in the door that "A full half hour on the normal chair (with only two reminders to sit properly and absolutely no standing or crouching on the chair) will get you the comfy chair back. If you can keep up sitting properly (with only two reminders per half hour and absolutely no standing or crouching on the chair) you get to stay in the good chair. Once you lose the chair again, it's GONE until next weekend when we'll try again"
Oh, just to clarify - we don't expect him to sit like a little statue, but he's not allowed to sit in ways that will damage the chair... So 'sitting properly' is either sitting in the 'normal' way to sit on a chair or sitting cross-legged, with the chair at a ~90 degree angle to the desk. He doesn't kneel very often, but kneeling is OK too. Even sitting on his bum and pulling his knees up under his chin is fine.
'Not sitting properly' is crouching or standing on the chair, sitting backwards and looking over your shoulder to see the monitor, draping your legs over the arms, sitting sideways against one arm and pressing your feet against the other, etc. It also includes spinning the chair so that the arms bash into the desk. Fidgeting is perfectly OK, but full on bouncing on the chair is not.

This weekend I'm also going to bring up written rules... We'll see what my BF thinks of that plan. I suspect he'll like the idea, but not be overly interested in the work of making the list.

"My mom used a friends address to get me into the high school she wanted me to go to."

But that is illegal, not to mention wrong. People in neighboring towns have tried that, and the kids get thrown out in the middle of the year because the town checks. That must be really embarrassing and disruptive for the kids.

My district, and some of the other ones, are brutal on that, not only do they demand proof of either deed or lease AND utility bills, they check using PIs. And not only do they kick out kids, they sue for back tuition.

TOS, you are right to point out that this is ilegal and wrong.

Bah, people do it here all the time. It can't be all that illegal, since I've never heard of someone in prison for it.
In addition, I doubt the school would actually "throw" the kids out in an embarrassing fashion. I doubt a school bouncer would pick your child up by the seat of his pants and unceremoniously pitch him out the door - I expect they'd just ask them to discontinue at the end of the semester.

Lots of people here from outside the city use a city address to send their kids to city schools here and I've never heard of a kid getting kicked out for it, even when the school knows they live out of town. We also have a clause in place that if you live outside the school district, you can pay $500/year/child to have them attend the school of your choice, but I don't know anyone who actually does that.

If you live in a town with a fabulous music program but nothing for visual arts, and your kid is a brilliant artist, why not cheat a little and send them to the next town where the arts program is better? If you're worried about taxes, I guarantee someone from that town is sending their kid to the school with the better music program!

My opinion is that anyone who's seriously opposed to people using a friend's address to have their kids attend a school where they will be a better fit is probably a big snob who places unreasonable value on the social status that they think going to a particular school imparts on their kid. And I think we're all clear on what I think of snobby people who place high value on their social status...
(If we're not clear: I think they can stuff it.)

I know plenty of people who actually pay the tuition (where I live it is about 12,000 per year at the elementary level, and increases), and the public record here shows plenty of times that people have been taken to court for back tuition. No they dont take the child out by the seat of his pants, but his friends will all know he is gone.

I dont know how you can guarantee oither people are doing it. I dont subscribe to the everyone else does it school of thought, whether applied to taxes, attending school out of district, etc.

TOS, do I recall you saying at some point that one (or more) or your kids had some sort of learning disability or socioneurological disorder? (I could be mixing you up with someone else on this though)
If it was you that I'm thinking of, do you have any input on how to work with A__'s ADHD plus the extra challenge of that he's only with us such a small amount of time? I know your kids are with you most of the time, but any additional constructive input from someone raising kids with behavioral or learning troubles would be good!

Why not cheat a little?? Because it is wrong. Because you are using services that you didn't pay for. Because people in town A are willing to pay higher taxes to get a better school system, and you, from town B with lower taxes, are sponging off their tax dollars. It has nothing to do with snobbishness and a lot to do with how much value the residents put on education.

And no, they wouldn't wait until the end of the semester to kick the children out.

If you want to go to a different school, plenty of schools have school choice. You just have to provide your own transportation.

Yes, some of my kids have learning disabilities. I never found reward systems to work very well with them. For most of them, what works best is A) working closely with them and B) picking your battles. I try to monitor their long-term homework very closely when necessary, tutor them if needed, and, for one of them, scribe while the child dictates papers. As far as rules go, I don't have very many. The animals have to be fed. No standing on the furniture while home alone (or cooking, or any of several other dangerous things). If you are going to be late, let me know.

For those who can't remember multi-step directions, like my youngest, I will tell them every step, one at a time. Get dressed. Come eat. Get your shoes on. Brush your teeth. Brush your hair. Jacket. Hat. Mittens. Backpack. Glasses. On a good day she remembers the next step by herself, and I will find her brushing her hair. On a bad day she will be standing stock still in the living room with no idea that she should be getting ready.

Doing things the same way every time helps. She almost never needs to be reminded to feed the animals, because she does it at 2:45 every day.

Find a good martial arts class, with instructors who are used to working with kids with disabilities. It is great for listening skills, learning routines, exercise.

Another pet peeve of mine: legislated classism.
I believe the whole point of a public school system is accessibility of quality education to ~everyone~, not just people in a particular region or realm. My opinion is that anyone should be allowed to attend any public school they so choose. If they think that school is the best fit, they should be welcome there, regardless of where they come from.

I know, I know, me and my radical left-wing ideals of universal, financially accessible, quality education and health care, and that no one person is any more deserving than any other...
*puts on lovely red armband*

Thanks TOS! I've only been playing an active role in his life for a short time, so I'm on quite a learning curve here. It also means quite a lot to me that you'd help me out in this, even though you aren't a big supporter of really involved stepparents. Thanks for another opinion!

I'll keep the one step at a time directions in mind. That's really good advice. We try to keep in simple, but sometimes I know we get ahead of what he can keep track of.
I'll also try to remember what you mentioned about good days and bad days. Sometimes "but he could do it yesterday" is tough for us to get past and my BF gets really frustrated on A__'s bad days (I do too, but I'm a little more patient than my BF)

I've also started to notice that working closely helps A__ a lot, so I'm glad to hear a reinforcement on that. I've noticed tasks that he has to pay attention to (like homework or reading or even eating supper) go better when someone is sitting with him. Even if my BF or I aren't helping him with his homework, it doesn't seem to be such an awful task if he's got someone to talk to about it :)
I think I'll try to be more diligent about that one.

A__ would LOVE a martial arts class... But with his lack of decision making skills and lack of maturity, we think it would be a really bad idea at this point. I do judo and my BF took jujitsu as a kid, so we're also advocates of martial arts classes (both for learning discipline and getting exercise) and A__ LOVES to wrestle, so we really would like for A__ to do some martial art, but not now. Hopefully in a few years he'll be mature enough to take some though! Luckily BM has the same opinion on this one, even though she's never done any martial arts.
One example (of many) for why we think he's not ready: he's in soccer, and learned how to kick with the most force to get the greatest distance. The next day he showed his new technique to a classmate by kicking them in the leg "because we didn't have a ball".

It is not illegal to lie about your address, but if they find out you have two options: pay tuition or leave the school. It is not illegal but cheating is not illegal either but we all know it is immoral. If one wants to teach their children that lying is OK, then of course you can go ahead and lie about your address. If you do want to attend a specific school, you have an option of moving to that area. Or you can find districts of choice that accept children from other areas, many districts do. I think lying is wrong under any circumstances.

I agree with tos in re: repeating steps one by one. Most children with LD have poor working memory. They simply cannot remember all the steps at once.

martial arts are absolutelly great but any other sports especially team sports are doing wonders for children with any special needs. Wrestling, swimming, basketball..Sense of responsibility, team work, sense of achievement. And if they join athletic teams at school, they are forced to maintain their grades and behavior: great source of motivation! especially for middle and high school age students.

Umm yeah... First of all I was talking about going to different schools in the same district... not hopping towns and I am talking about public schools. And for people (like my parents, especially when we were growing up) moving is not an option. So, yes she used a friends address and got us at one of the best high schools and she did her research and went to every single middle school in our city until she found the one that she felt was best and drove us back and forth everyday. And, when my children go to highschool and middle school I will do the exact same thing if need be. It is EDUCATION and it is one of the most important part of our lives. I will do what I need to do to make sure that my kids have the best one possible just like I am SO thankful that my mother did. And if you want to talk about immoral. I think it is incredibly immoral to have two schools in the same city but on different side of town represent completely different levels of education. My child's education should be no less because I live on the westside of town as opposed to the southside. I am ashamed for our city's leaders for allowing such deplorable conditions to exist at one school and nothing short of an excellent education at another. So yes, she lied and if I have to I will and the only thing it is teaching my kids is that I value their future and their education... the same lesson I recieved from my parents. Get over yourselves and your holier than thou attitudes. Apparently in your world you have never so much as sneezed in the wrong direction. Otherwise you wouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on other people's actions.

Nobody is perfect and of course all of us sometimes lie out of neccesity. But it doesn't mean we have to insist that lying is OK. We choose what is the best for our children to the best of our abilities. Maybe I would do the same thing..I was pretty desperate to get my daughter to IB school, I did move and there was no transportation, so being a single mom and driving back and forth her to school and from school while working was tough.

I never said that lieing is necessarily right. Nor would I even try to argue that point although I am sure I could find several valid arguements to support that point. And I absolutely agree that lieing is sometimes a necessity and those that would choose to believe otherwise are entirely fooling themselves. However, that wasnt even the point of the entry. The point was a continuation on the topic of schools and school systems. But, for some reason it was felt necessary to turn it into a scolding about it being wrong and immoral that my mother worked the system and your teaching your kids to lie.
And just in case anyone was wondering... she tried to get me into the magnet program at the school but, because the point of the magnet program is racial integration and the school had a 55/45 % split in white and black... I could not attend because I was white. So, she fell on plan b.

Ceph - A few suggestions in addition to the excellent ones you've already come up with. (I have an autistic 12 year old):

For multi-step directions, a strategy often recommended for autistic kids is a "visual schedule" -- Basically, it's a series of little pictures of people doing things in the proper order, laminated and mounted onto cardboard using velcro. Those were very successful when my son was little helping him learn how to do multi-step things independently. For example, his morning picture schedule showed:

Kid in bed
Alarm clock showing 6:30
Shower
Kid putting on clothes
Comb
Breakfast
Kid brushing teeth
Lunch bag
Backpack
Jacket
Alarm clock showing 7:30
School Bus

For very young or severely impaired children, they start with photographs of the actual child doing these activities because icons are too abstract. Then they move to icons. When a child is older, they add words. Then, they omit the pictures and just have the words. Now my son doesn't need any help at all and even makes us coffee most mornings!

Using timers has been very effective for us, as well as breaking long tasks into smaller tasks with smaller time increments. In some of his classrooms, John's assignments are put onto index cards instead of paper sheets, and he gets one card at a time, finishes it, then turns it in and gets the next card. Smaller bites of work with checkpoints and physical movement makes it easier for him to keep going, and easier for the teacher to know if he stops.

A similar strategy that has helped is for me to ask him how much time he needs to complete something. "Do you need 7 minutes? Or do you think you can finish it in 5?" (I may know perfectly well he can do it in 2, but by having him say 7, HE has commited to the 7-minute limit versus having it imposed. I usually give him a '2-minute warning' so he can actually get the job done.

The lack of consistency is really a big obstacle, but all you can do is manage your own household. If it works there, perhaps BioMom or some of A_'s other caretakers will adopt some of your practices.

"A similar strategy that has helped is for me to ask him how much time he needs to complete something..."

That's a FANTASTIC idea! I love it!
We can tell A__ that he should have his pajamas on and his teeth brushed by "fifteen minutes from now" and he'll say that's not enough time (I don't understand how it could possibly take more than 4 minutes, but I'm not 8, so oh well)

I'm going to try that one this weekend! "It's time to put on your pajamas and brush your teeth. Do you need five minutes or ten?"

My BF and I talked last night about a firm plan for the chair (I know it seems like such a bizarre little thing, but this chair is representative of EVERYTHING we're trying to work on with A__ right now: consistency, rewards/consequences, respect of people and property, sitting still/focusing, so it's sort of a benchmark for us)

We're also going to make two books with A__ this weekend. One is going to be his reading journal, like we talked about on here with the Narnia series, and it will stay with his books. One is going to be for Warcraft and other things he wants to write down for himself and it will stay at the computer desk (he currently just takes paper from the printer and leaves it all over the house). I'm just about to go gather up construction paper, stickers, markers, glue, etc to decorate two ordinary notebooks for this.

At some point this weekend, I think I'm going to suggest written rules. We'll see how the weekend goes.

I'm going to try to be very specific about any instructions and take the steps one at a time (like suggested by all of you)
I'm also going to keep in mind the "what you you think the consequences will be? is that something you would like?"

We're going to ask him if he'd like to bring any other toys or games over next time he comes. Hopefully he brings some toys that are fairly independent and I can come up with specific suggestions for, as per Mo4's advice. After I see what (if anything) A__ brings over, I think we're going to the junk shop to find things for him to take apart and reassemble.

I expect I'll update you all on Monday as to how these new techniques worked out!
Thanks again Mo4, FD, TOS and Sweeby!

One other trick that has been like magic is to photograph the child doing something right -- like sitting properly in 'The Chair' and put it on a journal page and write "Great Sitting!" underneath it. Then, if you run into chair problems and pulling out the Great Sitting page doesn't maintain the good behavior, take another photo of him standing/climbing and put that one on another journal page. He then needs to write a few sentences about why that isn't a good way to behave (get hurt, break chair). I don't know why this has been so effective, but it has broken the worst of my son's behaviors...

January 13, 2008
Schools
On the Lookout for Out-of District Students
By DEBRA NUSSBAUM
AT 8 oclock one morning, Juanita Ludwig and Vincent Constantino, employees of Clifton Public Schools, are knocking on the door at a house to check a tip. Someone had said a Clifton elementary school student did not really live there and was sneaking in from another district.

Ms. Ludwig, the supervisor of counseling and student services, explains to the parent who answers the door that the district must check to see that the child lives there most of the time. "We made sure there were age-appropriate toys for an 8-year-old child," she said. "We explain to the parents that the child must stay at the house at least four nights a week."

"They werent upset," Ms. Ludwig said. "A majority of people understand."

This time, Ms. Ludwig and Mr. Constantino, the districts domicile investigator, concluded that the student lived there full time. But that is often not the case.

In the 2006-7 school year, the Clifton district, which has 10,500 students, investigated 625 reports of students illegally attending its schools; it caught 62 last year and 59 the year before. Those students cost the district hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Clifton is hardly the only district searching for students sneaking into its schools. While the State Department of Education does not keep statistics, administrators in suburban districts report that hundreds of tips are received and checked every year.

And there are many ways to find students who dont belong. Bounties, detectives, stakeouts with cameras, and hot lines that receive tips from anonymous callers are tools that some school districts use to combat the perennial problem of illegally enrolled students.

Those who are caught can suffer consequences: For example, in Ewing, 13 families were asked to remove their children from its schools last year when attendance officers investigated and found the families did not live in the Mercer County community.

There is strong anecdotal evidence that families, including some from Pennsylvania and New York, try to sneak into some of the states top suburban districts, said Richard Vespucci, a Department of Education spokesman.

"Its been an issue on again and off again," he said. "Its a bigger issue when the economic climate is weaker. Its climates like this where property taxes are a real issue and anyone spending public funds wants to show where they are spending the money."

Districts combat the problems in various ways. Clifton, for example, offers a $300 bounty to anyone reporting a student who turns out to be attending a district school illegally; it has paid once so far this school year, once last year and twice the year before. Students are required to reregister in certain grades in some districts, and attendance officers go to students homes to verify they live there.

School administrators say taxpayers demand the accountability. With the average per-pupil cost at about $12,000, taxpayers want to be assured that a students "permanent home is located within the school district," Mr. Vespucci said.

In Cherry Hill, where about 400 such cases are investigated each year, the district got a tip a few years ago from a woman who lived in another South Jersey town. The woman said a fellow employee was bragging about sneaking her child into the Cherry Hill school district, said Don Bart, director of support operations for the district, which has almost 12,000 students.

The districts full-time attendance officer checked it out, and the student was asked to leave the district. "We are just enforcing the law," Mr. Bart said.

Under state law, a student a student may legally attend the school in the district where he or she resides the majority of the time. Out-of-district students are required to pay tuition.

Three years ago, the Clark Public School District hired a retired police officer to investigate cases of illegal students. The investigator has parked outside students homes to see if they come out in the morning and checked documents like licenses and car registrations.

"The key word here is domicile," Superintendent Vito Gagliardi said. "The child must live in the house as a primary residence."

Dr. Gagliardi said the concern is not only for taxpayers, but also for a student who has to lie to teachers and classmates. "In addition to protecting the tax dollar, this is unfair to the child," he said. Students whose parents take them to districts outside the one they live in have to be careful what they say, and it can be uncomfortable when someone wants to go to their house, he said.

In some cases in Clifton, investigators have followed buses or sat outside homes at 6:30 a.m. in an effort to see if students really live in the district, said Ms. Ludwig. The district also requires three proofs of residency. "We are very vigilant," said Ira E. Oustatcher, assistant superintendent.

With pressure on districts to reduce class size and stretch dollars, many taxpayers do not have patience for families sneaking into a district, be it for better schools, safety or convenience.

"The school districts are not being coldhearted," said Frank Belluscio, a spokesman for the New Jersey School Boards Association. "There is a financial burden on them, and they have limited resources. This is painful for schools, but its what the law says. Its been a nagging problem and fairly consistent over the years."

Ewing has one full-time attendance officer and four part-time officers, said Raymond Broach, the school superintendent. "Its a pretty steady issue," he said. Students have been caught coming in from Bristol and Morrisville, Pa., across the Delaware River.

In Teaneck, Al Schulz, a retired police detective, is attendance officer. Sometimes, he watches to see if students are coming over the George Washington Bridge from New York, said David Bicofsky, the district spokesman.

"You are talking $10,000 to $11,000 a year to educate a student," he said. "You have to be vigilant for your taxpayers."

How much money is spent on investigators and such? Who pays for that?

It's ridiculous the way schools complain about money all the time. In our county, my father owns three properties that he pays taxes on and has not children in school. The property values in our County are among the highest in the state (the cheapest "shack" is over $250,000.00), yet when my SD came to live with us and I went to arrange for her to ride the bus, it came with a fee of over $150.

I agree that it may be a problem (kids sneaking into better schools) in some areas, but I have heard the same complaints about funding, low budgets, etc. in every community I've ever lived in. I've had teachers send home letters asking for donations for basic classroom supplies (paper & pencils) and my SD's school is the ONLY school I've had any of my kids in that said if your child is sick, keep them home. They don't want the rest of the kids sick. In the past, I've had the schools try to make me feel guilty for keeping my sick child home, telling me how they lose money when the kids aren't there. I'm just sick of hearing them complain about what it costs them. What happens with all the property taxes taken from homes that have no children in school? and schools usually get paid by enrolled students.

My children's school system is very clear that they want parents to keep their children home when they are sick. The problem of people going out in public when they are sick is not limited to schools - too many workplaces make it difficult for workers to stay home sick, or for parents to stay home when their children are sick. The idea that somehow you are a more dedicated worker or student for going in with a fever and spreading the flu around is wrongheaded and cruel.

The whole idea of public school is that it is funded by everyone in the community, not just those with children currently in school. After all, pretty much every American alive today had the opportunity to go to public school themselves. I don't understand the concept of people saying that because their children are all grown, or because they don't have any, they shouldn't have to pay for school. An educated populace benefits society as a whole. I personally think it might be fairer for public schools to be totally funded by the federal government. I am not, however, fond of the way most public schools are run.

"It's ridiculous the way schools complain about money all the time".

You are kidding me, right? Our district doesn't have extra penny. Parents are poor, so kids don't have basic supplies. Teachers buy absolutelly everything themselves. Pencils, pens, paper, folders, notebooks, books- for children. I do have desks and chairs, and a dry eraser board. I don't have to buy that. But I did buy shelves so I can keep books for children, so they have something to read or something to look at. We also donate clothes and other items for children all the time. Urban districts cannot afford to have art and music classes for students. So they only teach core classes, but it effects children's balanced development. Do you have any idea what is going on in the urban or a very low socio-economic level shools?

Teachers ask for donations? Well duh, because it is a big financial burden to provide everything out of their pocket. It is not included into teachers' salary to buy supplies. I do not ask for donations because I wouldn't get any. But whose who think they would get something from parents, why not ask? I was always happy to help DD's school, and she attended school in one of the most afluent districts in the state but I never assumed that her teachers had to buy everything for her out of their pockets. Maybe you should ask how much teachers spend of their own money on supplies, materials, books etc

When sick children stay home, it doesn't cost schools any money. What are you talking about?

It could probably be more fair for schools to be funded by a federal government,but I wonder what's going to happen if we have republican government for much longer... Would schools all over the country stop teaching science, stop teaching health education (sex ed specifically ), start collectivelly praying in schools etc. I bet with federal funding will come federal "nonsense". But this is a topic for a different forum.

fine, that may be the case in your community. I live in an area that is mostly older, wealthy retired people. Like I said, my dad owns three properties (total combined value is about 2.5 million dollars) and pays a lot in property taxes. He has no kids in school, so why should his grandchildren have to pay over a $150 each to ride the bus to school and home? Before moving here, I lived in one of the poorest communities when I worked in social services. That county had the highest per capita rate of families on welfare. Yet, my kids rode the bus for free. Then, I could understand the teachers asking for donations. I donated and helped in all my kids' classes when I could. When I was a cub scout den mother, one of our community service projects was collecting donations. So, I know there is a difference in socioeconomic areas. I'm frustrated by living in a wealthy area where funding should NOT be a problem and yet, they still complain & make kids pay for a bus ride to school.

and whether they lose money or not when kids are sick, I was told by the school (when my kids were small) that they don't get paid if the kids aren't there. It is also my understanding that they get paid if the kids are excused for being ill.

and tos, I wasn't saying that people without children shouldn't have to contribute to paying for schools, I am simply saying that in my community, there are many older people (without children) that pay property taxes that fund the schools and they are wealthy people (with high property values) so the amount of taxes collected in our community is very high, which in my opinion, should mean that the schools should be well funded and that should include paying for school buses to and from school. (instead of charging over $150 per student)

This is true almost everywhere. This is not my community. That's where I teach. And I previously taught in the urban districts where situation was even worse. I also taught in a relativelly afluent area and it was still the same. Teachers pay for a lot of stuff out of their pockets.

I live in a very afluent area ( for the sake of my DD's education). DD attended school in a very afluent area and yet teachers pay for stuff out of their pockets and school couldn't afford much. It is true everywhere. My DD is out of school but I pay taxes for children's education in the area where i live. It is better for the whole society if population is educated. It does not matter if you have children in school or not. If education is your priority, then you contribute to it.

It doesn't matter if children attend school on a particular day or not. Teachers' salary doesn't depend on it. Maybe you were told so for a different reason. Maybe they were frustrated that your children were missing a lot of school. It is a big problem at elementary and middle school level.

My children had near perfect attendance all through school. But I would keep them home if they might be contagious. I was not talking about teacher's salaries, I am talking about the school's getting a certain dollar amount per student. I'm not saying teachers aren't underpaid, I'm saying the district (in my current area) should be well funded enough to pay the teachers enough and provide basic school supplies for students. I don't know where the money goes, but it doesn't seem right that teachers have to pay for anything out of pocket and that kids have to pay for busing.

What I was told specifically, was that I should send the kids to school every day, even if they are sick. They would then send them home if they were too sick to stay in school. I think that is ridiculous to take a sick child out of bed and make them go through that because the school told me that as long as they showed up, they could mark their attendance for that day and the school got more money for them just showing up.

Although, I am happy to help my kids classrooms (at the kids former school) I did have a problem with a laundry list of 20+ required items that included things like toilet paper and soap. Seriously!! I need to send my kids to school with their own TP. And on top of that teachers that threaten kids with bad grades and turning their little name badges to whatever the next color was at the time(the discipline deal for elementary age) if this list was fulfilled by a certain time. That I have a serious problem with. Those teachers have no clue what the financial situation is at home.

I have never heard of teachers asking for toilet paper, but they do ask for cleaning supplies - however, it is completely voluntary in every school district that I have lived in. There is very little the children are required to purchase - even their vocabulary workbooks are optional, but they are at a distinct disadvantage if they don't buy them. My kids' schools have a ridiculous number of field trips at an average of about twenty dollars each - but if you let the school know you can't afford it, there are scholarships available. If my kids' teachers ever threatened the children with bad grades for not bringing in cleaning supplies, I would be meeting with the principal and calling the school committee before nightfall.

MOMof4 -- that is outrageous.

TOS, our school has a principal's fund too, for people who cant afford sports, trips etc. I dont know how well it works.

Most of the teachers are on more of a budget than the parents, so are cautious about asking for $$.

and maybe it's only in this area, but when my kids were in HS here, they would come home telling me that their teachers were telling them how their parent's should vote in the next election to give teachers a raise. (whatever proposition they were in support of) It is one thing to discuss politics in social studies, but I think it's wrong to use kids for their own agenda. Several times over the years, at different schools, with different teachers, my kids told me that their teachers complained about their salaries. That's just as bad as the CP complaining about their child support or lack thereof. I don't even complain to my kids if I don't think I'm paid enough. I don't think it's right for a teacher to discuss their personal financial problems with the class.

and on Back to school night this year, my SD's teacher (at the school she was going to before her mom moved away, which is in a very low income area) told the few parents that bothered to show up, that "here's the science book we're supposed to use, but we probably won't because there isn't time for science." and "we'll be doing Social Studies on Tues & Thurs. for 40 min. but only if we get done with Math. There isn't time in our day for PE but on Fridays, they will be able to run around the track once." It was a complete joke. DH and I couldn't believe what we were hearing. She actually showed us the workbook she was using for one subject and said she couldn't get one for each of the students so she had to run off copies of the assignment each week and unless a parent volunteered to come in and do that for her, they probably wouldn't be able to get to that subject. Of course, she said there is time for singing on Wed. afternoons. I had signed up to volunteer in the class (against BM's wishes) even though it's an hour drive each way to that school from where I live. I was appalled at the teacher's flagrant attitude that because there wasn't enough money in the school's budget, this was what was going to happen. As we were leaving the classroom, we were given a flyer for whatever proposition was on the ballot for the next election. Fortunately, SD's mom told us that night that she had moved and SD only went to that school one more day and the next week, she started school where we live. I will admit that even though I am peeved at having to pay for her to ride the bus, she's getting much better education. She even gets PE every day, as she should.

it is outrageous and I did throw a fit... not that that school cared. Which is why they don't go there anymore. This is the same school that said we don't have time to teach your son you are going to have to do it at home.

I know they ask for toilet paper in the urban schools. If schools don't provide enough toilet paper, it gets to be very expensive to provide for every student. I buy my own facial tissue for the classroom along with other things, but we do have toilet paper luckily. If we wouldn't, I would have to ask. Students with disabilities, especially severe ones use a lot of tissue, I don't have to explain why.
Teachers shouldn't be discussing their salary, it is ridicilous. It is available online though. Most districts post their salary. It is not a secret.

I don't think i am underpaid at all. But when i buy so much out of my pocket, of course I feel underpaid.

Here schools don't charge to ride the bus, and in our classrooms teachers are required to provide their own facial tissue, dry erase markers, pencils, pens, paper, computer paper, etc. and it gets very high considering the average 7th grade student loses a pen/pencil daily. There are almost 1,100 7th graders enrolled in my school this semester. Some of the teachers send home lists of requests from parents and others just buy what's on the list and keep buying all year long. It gets ridiculously expensive, but the state won't give us more funding, even after raising taxes statewide.

Luckily, like fine's school we have toilet paper, we just don't have pencils, folders, art supplies, or half the time paper unless we the teachers buy it.

At the beginning of the year and this semester also SD and DS's teachers sent home very detailed lists of required supplies for students. Things like baby wipes (huggies ultimate care), hand sanitizer (dial), anti-bacterial soap (softsoap), dry erase markers (expo small tip 6 pack), paper towels (brawny), printer paper (HP 20 LB letter size).

How ridiculous is that??? This is a mid-city school system where half the population of the school have money and the other half does not. The halls are filled with violence and fights over $3 for lunch money and my kids are scanned with metal detectors walking through any entrance to the school and they're requesting DETAILED lists of supplies? Some of these kids don't even have the money for shoes or clothes let alone mesh backpacks and Dial antibacterial hand sanitizer. It's ridiculous.

I don't think that the teachers should have to buy the supplies, but I don't think that parents should have to buy teachers' preferences either.

well this kind of detailed list is weird. I have never heard of it neither as a parent nor as a teacher.

I have seen lists with suggested brands. I've even seen a list where the teacher found all the best prices and gave the name of the store & price, which was nice. In fact, one year I got a list and at the bottom, it said that, for whatever price (around $20), they could buy the "kit" with everything on the list, from the teacher. I have never had a problem with getting the kids supplies for school, but I have seen what i think are ridiculous things and some things that never get used. The lists today are a little more outrageous than when my kids were in elementary school. (I'm not talking about high school kids here.)

I always thought the lists were a little excessive. Even my daughters pre school had a list of twenty plus items. I always hated in high school when the teachers were ridiculousy precise... You must have one yellow three ring folder with one pocket two blue folders with two pockets one set of multicolored dividers with pockets two blue pens one white pen three black pens etc etc... My mom was always irritated about it because it usually added up to be close to 100.00 worth of stuff after 6 classes and when you have 4 kids... that is outrageous. And to make matters worse less than half way through the year you never used the stuff again...So, all in all it was a waste of money and time to try and find the last yellow three prong folder with one pocket.