Ima,

I am sorry about your teenage life.

Jonesy, -- dont you think if he was miserable for 30 years he could have left her earlier?? And when only hears one side of a marriage, it may be biased.

Wrychoice -- and once again, it is OK to attact moms, but not SMs -- is it possible there is some bias here.

bnice,

I am a bioparent as well as a stepparent. And I do understand how someone may feel about a spouse who cheated and left them for someone else. But, what else I understand is that it is not the childrens fault and they should not be punished by being told what a horrible person their other parent is. That was my point. I think that a lot of spouses who were "wronged" by their ex pass their feelings onto the kids, and that is not fair. Someone can be an awful spouse, but a great parent. And using your own feelings to come in the way of that is selfish. Remember, your supposed to put your kids needs in front of your own. (that applies even when the other parent does not do the same) That is my point.

wrychoice,

I am beginning to feel like one of us is living in an alternate universe. If I had enough time, I could quote hundreds of sources that discuss a relationship between depression and acting out sexually. Here is one:

http://www.depression-guide.com/male-depression.htm

Here is another:

http://www.menalive.com/ims-col21.htm , although I think the last entry in the list comparing women's and men's depression was reversed.

There is a similar description in the "Depression Sourcebook," published by Omnigraphics.

Since the primary indicator of depression is lack of interest in activities that used to interest you, I think I can safely say that I am definitely not depressed.

theotherside, has your exH been diagnosed with depression?

No, he was unwilling to go to a psychiatrist, or even talk to our family doctor. I think he has had mild depressive episodes for as long as I've known him, but in the months before the affair, he exhibited almost all the symptoms I have ever seen listed for male depression, except he never gambled, drank, or used drugs (thank goodness).

helpwiththis: I agree. And yet I imagine that like many areas in life, what people know they should do, and what they actually do, can often be two very different things. Life food/eating for example. Many often know they shouldn't eat whatever "that" is, but they eat it anyway.

And the older I get, the more I notice people (myself included) "justifying" what we say or do, and brushing it off, (when we say or do something wrong) but wanting to hold others accountable for their words or actions. And hang onto the anger at them for their words/actions or attitudes.

But back to the point. I agree fully with the "concept" of taking the high road, and encouraging the relationship between the parent, and your children, but I imagine with all of the pain from the betrayal, the financial loss (many lose their home in a divorce), often times friendships fall away now that you are "single", children are hurting, and your whole world is rocked to its core, and here is this woman (or man) who caused it all struting by his (or her) side without any remorse, and attacking you????

And so while I believe in the concept of the high road, and believe it is in the children's best interest, I imagine you must be remarkable, if you can actually pull it off.

You must wrap your head around the concept that you must do this for the emotional/mental sake of your children, even if it about kills you in the process. And I don't imagine many people are able to pull that off.

I have more to say but I am late so I will get back to this later.

Children SHOULD be told that adultery is wrong. Long ago, when I was more naive, I thought that the fact that adultery is wrong was obvious, but it is clear that a lot of people disagree. It is my responsibility as a parent to attempt to teach my children right from wrong. If my exH held up banks or cheated on his taxes, it would be my responsibility to make sure our children realized that was wrong as well. If I were to do something my exH believed was wrong, it would be his responsibility to tell the children so. The same would be true if were were talking about a sibling or a grandparent. Telling a child that what their father/friend/other relative did was wrong is not the same thing at all as telling them that he is a "horrible person."

I wanted to add another thought, to my last post, and "wrychoice" may like to comment on this because of her/his practice in this field.

Let's say that you were actually able to pull off, putting on a false front for your children, encouraging a good relationship between your children, and the other parent and his/her new (and possibly younger) new lover, who will now be in a step-parent role to your children. So let's say you can pull off faking it for your children and actually encouraging a good relationship between them.

Do your children then fail to learn an important lesson about the devastation and pain that infidelity causes? As they witness the parent faking it, and putting on a false front, do they instead learn that infidelity isn't so bad, and dad's new young wife is really fun? All the while, dad and his new wife may very well be putting "you" down, or talking poorly about you, as iamamommy experienced?

For Imamommy, years later, not until she was well into adulthood, did she grasp that her father was indeed a remarkable man. But you know, many never put that together, and they believe the parent who bad talked the other, and never have a relationship with the parent who perhaps took the high road.

I guess what I am asking wrychoice, from your experience and practice, when we "fake it" and put on a false front, are we helping are children in the long run, to be healthier emotionally, or are we shortchanging them from some very, very important lessons on the real consequences of infidelity, and betrayal, and the many people it hurts? The real cost of wanting what you want, regardless of the pain it causes everyone around you? (as in a man or woman wanting that new woman/man at the office) regardless of the cost to others? And if mom or dad (to protect the kids) acts like they are fine, do we fail to teach them such an important lesson?

Not to mention the chronic health problems that most psychologists blame on imploding emotions.

Can you address this from a professional point of view, wrychoice?

So when my SS12 is condemning Bill Clinton for cheating on his wife ...No one should trust him, why do people like him? and a few other phrases... my hubby should say to him "well your mother cheated on me"???

I don't think he necessarilly needs to say that, I also do not think that if the person cheated, he/she is a horrible jerk who cannot be forgiven. The point is that people make mistakes, do bad stuff, hopefully they learn from it and do not repeat the same mistakes. We should make a point that certain actions are bad not necesarilly that those people are bad. MY DD19 knows that her dad cheated on his 2nd wife and left for TOW. It is hard not to know! She sees cheating as wrong, she however does not change her relationship with her dad and doesn't love him any less. She doesn't love what he did because it hurt too many people in the process.

Wrychoice1 here from an alternate universe...

Bnicebkind....the questions you are asking are incredibly complicated, I think. It goes to the complex dynamics of the family. The adults play multiple roles: they are intimate partners to one another; they are parents to their children. Entirely separate. To try to address it fully and completely thoughtfully would take more time that what I have at the moment, but I will offer some quick thoughts...

Number one: not all marriages end when one partner has an affair (and for marriages that do end, infidelity is not the only reason). I think something can be learned from these marriages and how the adults manage the crisis and what is and is not communicated to their children. I think the adults in marriages that remain intact following the crisis of one (or both) partner(s) being unfaithful to the other are much more clear about (for want of a better term) boundaries....that the infideltity is an issue between them and not something with which to burden their children...."Mommy and Daddy are experiencing some troubles right now but we are working together to solve this problem. You need to know we love you and no matter what care about keeping you safe and secure."

On the other hand, if a marriage ends in divorce, it becomes much more difficult for the adults to maintain clarity about their separate roles in the family. Especially if there is ongoing conflict, which I think is often the case --- not always, but often. I think everyone is emotionally vulnerable when a marriage ends, especially if the decision to end the marriage is not mutual. If one partner did not agree to end the marriage, that person generally feels abandoned and is profoundly injured. It is my experience (and I think the research would back me up on this) that children most identify with the parent who is perceived to have been left, so they, too, feel abandoned --- even if this is not the case. I think it is an incredibly herculean emotional task for the adults to be clear between themselves and to be clear to their children that it is the marriage that has been dissolved...that while mommy & daddy will no longer be wife and husband to one another, they will always be parents to their children. I think it is of paramount importance to communicate this message to the children...and I think it is monumentally difficult to do for the spouse who did not seek or agree to end the marriage.

I think something that might be important to introduce here is the concept of "resilience," if we are talking about what is important to communicate to our children with respect to helping them be healthy adults capable of engaging in and sustaining healthy relationships.

I don't know of anyone who will go through this life immune from tragedy or trauma of some sort. Seventeen years ago this week, I was a witness to the accident that killed my husband of 14 years. TOS had a young relative that was murdered; my sister and brother-in-law lived through the murder of his sister; our children die from accidents or illness or suicide; other people we love die too young; too many children are abused or neglected by the poeple who should be protecting them; we lose our homes & possessions to natural disasters; we lose jobs to downsizing or NAFTA...you name it. Horrible things befall us.

I think one of the most valuable gifts we can give to our children is the gift of resilience. How do we bounce back when horrible things happen in our lives? In its own way, divorce is devastating for kids. They have their own grave pain. They do not need the added burdern of how it is equally but differently devasting for their mom and/or dad. If we want to help our children, I think we model resilience. I don't think this means we "act like we are fine;" I think it means acknowledging that something very painful has occurred and, in spite of the trauma, ultimately, "I am going to be okay & you (the children) are going to be OK....because in spite of my marital pain, I am not going to lose sight of my parental responsibility to provide a safe and secure environment for you....and part of that responsibility includes doing what I need to do to take care of my own hurt; to do what I need to do to facilitate my own healing."

Perhaps this is a poor analogy, but if a parent contracted cancer, while you would not necessarily keep the diagnosis a secret from the children, you would reassure them by doing everything in your power to seek out appropriate care and treatment. You might share with your kids that you are afraid but you wouldn't expect them to quell your fears --- for that you might turn to another adult; you might attend a support group for others confronting cancer; you might consult your pastor; you might speak to your doctor; you might seek out a therapist....but you wouldn't expect your children to ease your fear.

I don't know if this addresses your questions, bnicebkind, but they are some of my initial thoughts....

ima,

You have 2 almost grown-up sons. From your previous posts it seemed their fathers didn't pay child support, didn't see them much, and didn't raise them as fathers should have done. You mentioned you never said negative things about their fathers, I do hope you told your sons what their fathers did was wrong, and they should be responsible fathers when they have child, basically teach them right from wrong. I think TOS did the right thing to teach her kids infidelity is wrong.

"For Imamommy, years later, not until she was well into adulthood, did she grasp that her father was indeed a remarkable man."

Just to clarify, I have always seen my Dad as remarkable. My mom's affair began two years before he left. He stayed, knowing what she was doing, I believe for us kids. We knew something was wrong when my mom left for days at a time. My parents had gone through bankruptcy a few years before and my dad worked day & night to provide for us. He finally left when my mom went to pick up his check and loaned it to her boyfriend. Their argument couldn't be hidden and that's how we found out what was going on.

I was 17 when I was on my own, but I didn't move away from the town my mom lived in, until I was 22. That is when I started having a closer relationship with my dad. I don't know if that's well into adulthood, but I agree with wry, if my dad had tried to use my mom's affair to "teach" me that it's wrong, it would have caused me more pain. There is a way to teach children about life, but pointing out their parents faults to teach them right from wrong is hurtful to the child that loves both parents and sees themselves as part of both parents. I agree with finedreams that kids know when the behavior is wrong, but they don't want to see their parent as bad, it could cause them to identify themselves as bad too.

It was later (in my 20-30's) that I began to realize how much my dad must have suffered, but I've always known he thought of us kids first. If the family has broken up, regardless of the reason, why would any loving parent want to add more grief?

No, I don't agree. I've told my boys that if they make a baby with someone, they are to take responsibility for it. Child support and parental finances are an adult issue. My kids were taught about money with an allowance and using their own bank accounts, not by me complaining that their father's didn't pay child support.

However, recently my son's father told my son that it's my fault he can't work and that I should drop the arrearages he owes. So, it's not like they don't know things, but it's not my place to tell my son his dad is a deadbeat. He is 20 and can figure it out by his dad's statement. (because me son went on to say that his father also doesn't pay for his half brother.)

I have also told all my kids that if they have a child with someone, that they are going to have that child's other parent in their life forever, so choose carefully.

I just can not agree with pointing out a parents faults to their child. If the child has not yet realized that the other parent has done something like have an affair I do not think that it is a good idea to point it out to the child. Often times people who have affairs are lacking much character to begin with, so the child already knows that parent has faults anyways. Should we add more to the child's pain by telling them more negative things about their other parent?

My sd's mom has done many awful things, that is how we came to have custody. Should we point out all the bad things to my sd and make her feel awful about her mom? We would not lie for her mother, but we certaintly would not just come out and talk badly about her. Children are a part of their parents. If we talk badly about their parent or point out negatives about their parents the child will feel bad about themselves.

I agree with HelpWithThis!
I don't think it's appropriate to lie to kids about their parents, but I think there's a certain onus of tact that adults need to live up to.

Here's an example from my life that you can let me know what you would have done:
I think my brother is his own worst enemy - he's lazy and self-indulgent and he won't take control of his health or his life to bring about the changes he'd like. However, I don't tell my niece and nephew that. I had my 8yo nephew out for supper a few weeks ago and I asked for my leftovers to be packed up. When I explained that this was because I was full and didn't want to eat any more, my nephew said "My dad would have just eaten it all and then complained that his stomach hurt" and I replied "Well, I guess your dad and I have different ways of eating" instead of "Yes, he would. And that's why your dad is about 130 pounds overweight and always tired when he's not actually sick."
My nephew knows that my brother's weight is unhealthy and has said that he wants to "eat good so I can be skinny and do the stuff I want to do when I'm grown up", so what good would it have done for me to be tactless about it?
What would other people have said?

I don't think anyone has a right to tell you how to eat or criticize you for it. Those children will go right home and tell their parents what you said. I wish people would mind their own business and quit judging and criticizing others. If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything.

Sorry, but this is a touchy subject for me. I don't speak to one of my sisters because of her never ending advice about health. You can't mention any aches or pains around her, she's got a cure. You can't say you ate lunch out without her saying, "I don't eat out, it's not good for you". When my mom was in her 70's my sisters were on to her all the time about eating to many sweets and telling her to drink a qt of water an hour when she works in the yard. On one of her trips to the doctor I asked about it. He said, "at her age it doesn't matter what she eats, She is no longer working for a healthy body and strong bones" When I mentioned the water in take, he rolled his eyes and told her, I have you on diuretics to get rid of the water and you are replacing it, drink only when you are thirsty." By the way, she is 95, she was raised on fried foods (in lard), still lives alone and takes care of her flowers and rakes her yard.

There's a fine line between glossing over or ignoring bad behavior and 'pointing it out.' I think 'tactfully acknowledging' the bad behavior and the fact that it's bad is probably the way to go.

You did exactly that Ceph, and it was perfectly clear from your nephew's statement that he understood his father's approach was wrong. There was no need to 'point it out' or 'drive the point home'.

Applied to infidelity, I probably would not tell a young child about my Ex's infidelity unless the child asked directly. It's just not the kind of thing I'd bring up - ever. But if Daddy left and moved in with TOW right away, I probably would explain it. How could you not? Some variation of "Dad made a bad choice" appropriate to the age of the child.

I don't think that the eating example was really the same thing - eating too much or the "wrong" things may not be wise, but it is not immoral.

I think Bricekind made an important point - if everyone pretends that infidelity is not a big deal, that it is not devastating, the children won't realize the extent of the impact. If children grow up in a family where the adults make racist comments, and especially if everyone around them does as well, they will not realize how wrong and harmful such behavior is, and they will likely make racist comments themselves as adults.

If not from the parent, where else would they learn that adultery is wrong, and that the effects are devastating? TV? Politicians? Movie actors and actresses? Not likely...

If you try to hide the infidelity, it is likely that sooner or later they will find out, or figure it out, and then the children will feel doubly betrayed.

And then there are the logistical aspects. What if your little six year old talks to her friends about the bedroom that Daddy is sharing with his "friend," and the child's friends mention it to their parents, who are horrified because they know he is still married? Or worse, if your naive 10 year old mentions something to his or her classmates about Daddy's "friend", and the classmates tease him about Monica Lewinsky, and he has no idea what they are talking about?

I still think it's up to the person that did wrong to explain it. My stepdaughter's mom fought for several months in a heated custody battle. Each wanted full custody of their 8 year old daughter. They had a week on/ week off arrangement. During the entire court battle, she talked to her daughter about it. She told her that Daddy is trying to take you away from me, so stepdaughter would ask us, why are you trying to take me away from my mommy. and we would have to explain that we don't want to take her away but both her mommy and daddy wanted her to live in their house all the time and a wise judge decides when two people don't agree. We didn't tell her the reason we wanted her to live with us is because her mom shares a bedroom with her and her sister or that daddy didn't think it was appropriate for mommy to bring her boyfriend over and sleep with him in the same room as his daughter. Should we have?

The only time her mom went to her counselor was the time their daughter told the counselor that she wanted to live with her mom. The counselor asked her why and felt she was being coached by the mom. Should we have told her that her mom doesn't care about her problems (that she talks to the counselor about) but tell her that her mom thought she could use the counselor to gain custody? Who thinks it's right for a parent to ask a child where they want to live? (I'm not talking about teenagers)

When they went to trial, the court kept the 50/50 arrangement. Less than three weeks later, her mom met a new guy and moved 2 1/2 hours away to another county. She handed over full custody to DH. Then, she had the nerve to ask DH to tell her. He refused but agreed to be there when BM told her. Stepdaughter was devastated and didn't understand why her mom left her. Who thinks we should have told her that her mom cared more about her new boyfriend than her daughters?

At first, she told everyone that she was taking her other daughter with her (since she had full custody) and that was upsetting to stepdaughter. We've since found out that she didn't take her other daughter, she left her with her mom and doesn't even visit with her. Should we tell SD that her mom is wrong to leave her daughters behind for her new boyfriend?

I'm not looking for answers to the questions, I think it's ridiculous to justify inflicting your pain or feelings on children by telling them what their parent has done is wrong. They know if it hurts and it's wrong. If daddy moves in with the other woman, let him explain it to his kids. My stepdaughter is already suffering and misses her mom. She doesn't need to be told that her mom is doing something wrong. What good would it do to tell her details or our opinion?

and tos, you can say it's like telling your kids that their uncle or grandparent did something wrong, but kids aren't half of their uncle or grandparent. They don't get their identity from others, that comes from the parents so it's not the same.

can't you teach your children right and wrong without using your ex as an example. Do you think they won't figure out it's wrong? I knew it was wrong when my mom did it to my dad. My dad never had to tell me, that would have only made me feel worse.

I just find it selfish to burden kids with adult issues and feelings. I know you don't agree and that's your choice to do what you want with your kids.

I agree with the point that one parent should not point out to a child that another was not faithful. You can teach your child right from wrong without using the other parents mistakes as an example! Use famous people, they make lots of mistakes and the childs feelings will not be hurt to find out an actres cheated on their spouse. But, they will feel hurt when one parent tells them that the reason they are not a family is because their mom or dad decided to have sex with someone else! Come on!

Now if your child was to ask you if daddy left to be with stepmom and it is true then don't lie. But, if the child is clueless on the infidelity it is selfish and brainwashing to point it out to them. Let the child form their own opinions on their other parent. My ex said some pretty nasty things to me before we split up, should I tell our child all about it and tell him that is why we don't tease people? Or should I instead read him a story where someone is teased and teach him about teasing that way?

I think is it silly to act like using our ex's mistakes as examples to "teach" our children from is good parenting. I think it is quite the opposite.

I kind of think that infidelity of a spouse should not be discussed with children of any age unless of course this infidelity was so obvious that discussion can not be avoided. It also depends on children's age and the way this issue is presented. No need to traumatize children.

I did discuss with my DD my X's infidelity in regards to my DD's SM. DD was upset feeling bad for her half-brother and her SM and was dissapointed about dad's actions, so she needed to talk about it to someone, who else would she talk to if not her mother?

Not only affair, but affair with the wife of his good friend. DD actually knows TOW because TOW was coming to X's house with her husband! Both I an XMIL (I am very close to her) talked to DD about it because it was known to everyone, he made no secret out of it. I never talked bad about her dad, I always thought that it is wrong to talk bad about other parent. But this issue was discussed and I obviously couldnot avoid saying that what he did and what TOW did is wrong. DD wanted to talk about it, the whole story is embarassing. But DD is 19. Would I discuss this with younger child? Probably no. Would I discuss it with her if X would cheat on me? I don't know..If it could be avoided, I probably would not talk to my kids about it.

I also wonder that if there was affair but then parents decided to stay together and forgive, should children know that there was affair at some point? I don't think so! So why do they need to know about affairs if parents are no longer together?

I think it mine and TOSs situation it was self-evident (at least to her older children). It was a major embarrsement to my DD.

Well if the kids knew about it and came to you and brought up the affair that is one thing. But, what I disagree with is telling a child when they did not already know about it.

And if your child does come to you and bring up the infidelity I do not think that you should use that as an opportunity to tell the child how horrible the other parent is and that is the only reason why you are no longer together.

embarassing is a good word to describe it.

But guess what? X is not embarassed. He is as happy as he has ever been. Full of love and hapiness and jumps up and down with joy. And his TOW, who also left her husband to be with my X, is happy too. How nice...

Yes, leaving for TOW or TOM is evident most of the time. Well X moved in with TOW right as he left his wife, of course evryone knows. Both DD and DD's brother know TOW because she was a wife of a friend. In fact they knew her for years! She and her husband used to come over and stay all the time at X's and SM's house. How nasty...

DD's brother is only 8. How awful to experience this at such young age.

i wonder if your X ever felt embarassed?

HOW ON EARTH DO YOU EXPECT TO HIDE INFIDELITY EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO????????? Somebody is going to tell them, some day, or they will figure it out. Are you claiming that it is better for them to find out from their sibling than from their parent? Are you nuts??? Is it better for them to find out from Uncle Joe or worse yet from the kid at school who never liked them anyway, and who enjoys pointing it out in a manner that will maximize their embarrassment??? In addition to the pain of having their parent leave the family for another woman/man, you also want them to look like a naive fool in front of their friends and relatives?

One of my kids said that the worse thing a parent can do to a child is to lie to them, including lying by omission. My kids were upset because I didn't tell them as soon as I even suspected that their father was having an affair. Sometimes I think they were almost as upset by the fact that their father was lying to them about where he was going as they were about the affair itself.

I think at first he was exuberant. Now DD says he never takes GF to office parties, family parties, country club, but instead takes DD. But who knows.

My dh's ex left him to be with another man and immediately moved in with that man. The kids were young and did not put two and two together. Even now, as they are older, they still do not realize that "mommy left daddy for bf".

Nobody in our family is ignorant enough to point out this sad fact to the children. And I sure do not know how children at school would know that years ago their mom left their dad for someone else???? We will never point out this to the children. If they eventually figure it out and come to us and bluntly ask we will not lie. But we are not "lying by omission" right now just because we have not told them the sad truth.

So I do not buy this "you had to tell them" bs. I think it is selfish to tell them and I think it is wrong. If you can live with using your kids feelings to make your ex pay for his mistakes then that is your business. But I could not live with myself for that. My skids will figure out what kind of person their mom is on their own and form their own opinion of her and will be happy that I did give them their opinion.

Were it me being left, I think that I would find an age-appropriate way to address the situation. Very young children wouldn't need to know details, but they do deserve to know SOMETHING--sans bitterness and poisoning. Older children will probably get it and deserve honest, forthright answers--also sans bitterness. There's no across the board answer for all age groups or all children.

However, I DO think that they need real, honest information. It hurts and it's wrong--no matter what. Those things need to be addressed with all age groups, but as an adult talking to a child--certainly not as patient/therapist or girlfriend/girlfriend. Children are too smart and perceptive to treat them like mushrooms.

My DDs friends found out when 2 days after I moved out, before any papers filed, Dads GF moved in, and then just had to change the answer phone message from a generic one with his voice (leave a message) to a generic one with her voice. Now please, was there any reason to do that? Or is it just peeing on the ground to establish your own territory. So all my DDs friends who didnt have our new number, and called the old house, heard this strange womans voice. Nice job. did anyone think that he met new GF and she moved in in two days.

Why hide? But I don't think you should take a 6-year-old sit him down and tell him for no reason: listen, your daddy slep with this other girl and that's why he went to live with this other girl and left mommy. Do 6-year-old kids understand what sex is and what it means to cheat? Nobody talks about hiding.

My SO's X did exactly the same as your DH's X after having an affair (not the first affair in 28 years of marriage). Grown DDs of course knew, they weren't kids anymore. They are still activelly dislike BM's BF, who she moved in with, and are angry and upset with their mom. It effected younger DD's college performance, caused a lot of stress and pain in both young women. I agree with you that young children do not need to know the details.

My teenagers figured it out immediately - you really think they wouldn't tell the younger ones what was going on? It was a moot point anyway, since my exH made no secret of it - a few weeks after he left, he took our six year old to the OW's home, and showed her the bedroom where he and the OW slept together - you really think it would be a good thing for her to mention that to her friends, with no idea that it is wrong? I realize that not everyone has older kids as well as younger, but almost everyone has older cousins, aunts, etc. who would know exactly what was going on and would at some point mention it.

Six year olds are perfectly capable of understanding that it is wrong to "date" someone else while you are married. Yes, of course they can understand the concept of emotional infidelity (stated in simpler words of course). The physical infidelity is largely irrelevant. Any child who has ever heard "You're not my friend anymore," and watched little Lucy run off to play with the new kid in the neighborhood can understand that concept. It is very important that children understand that when you get married the vow is till death do you part.

X did the same with his son-8 years old, DD's half brother. He told his son that now he will be living with TOW and took him to the place that he and TOW rented after X left his 2nd wife. It was within few weeks after him leaving his wife. Poor little boy refused to talk to dad for about a month after that. He was very upset and told my DD: I don't want to talk to dad. Now he is OK and is fine with dad. But I bet he is traumatized for life. X didn't directly told DD why he is leaving 2nd wife, but she of course found out right away. No mystery there.

If a child of six or eight can understand the concept of infidelity (emotional or physical) and the cheating parent has taken the child into the environment where they are cheating, the child becomes upset enough to not talk to the cheater for a month, would it serve any purpose to explain "daddy vowed to only be with me for the rest of his life, but he lied. That's wrong"?

tos, you are basically admitting that your kids figured it out immediately and told the younger ones? What's left to explain besides how hurt you are? That he destroyed your family? That he is wrong? Is telling your kids those things going to help them? Is it going to make them feel better about the situation? Is it going to make them feel good about themselves, or anything?

When a person leaves a marriage for their lover, there is no way to hide it, and like someone said before, if they are too young to know (under 3 or 4), what purpose does it do to explain to a small child what happened? Why would they need to know? If they are old enough to understand, they will form their own opinions on what happened. What purpose does it serve to tell older kids that it's wrong? Don't they already know it's a bad thing because their family is no longer together? Shouldn't you teach your children from the beginning that marriage is sacred and infidelity is wrong? Obviously by tos's example of a child on the playground being told "you're not my friend anymore" shows that even small kids know it's wrong to treat people that way. Most kids over the age of 7-8 know about "stealing" friends or boy/girlfriends. Don't you think they know it's wrong already? or do you just want them to be as mad at daddy as you are? To make sure they know the marriage ended because of him and not you? Does it drive the point home to tell your child, "daddy left us for the other woman and he is wrong to do that". I don't even think that is what gets said, what really gets said? More likely...

"It's all his fault our family is broken up because he's a cheater"

or

"If he could keep it in his pants, we'd still be together"

I seriously doubt that the person cheated on is going to calmly sit down the children and tactfully explain in age appropriate terms what has happened so that kids walk away feeling that life will be okay.

"eating too much or the "wrong" things may not be wise, but it is not immoral."

I'd argue that in this case, it has long passed unwise and reached immoral. My brother weighs ~320 lbs. He's always "not feeling well" and can't play with his 6 and 8 yo kids the way a 38 yo dad should be able to (no running around the backyard or playing on the jungle gym at the park).
He's always "too tired" to help my SIL around the house, so she works full time, and does all the playing with the kids, and does all the housework. My SIL has been trying to prepare healthier meals to help him lose weight, but he just eats even more. If there's no more meal left, he raids the cupboards for snacks. She tries to encourage exercise "let's take the kids for a walk" but he won't go, or "since we're both home tonight, let's each take a turn on the treadmill while the other watches the kids" but he says he's "too tired"... And she's incredibly frustrated with him.
I don't know what his cholesterol is like, but his blood pressure is through the roof and his lung capacity is crap.
I acknowledge there is a difference between infidelity and his degree of overeating, but I think that both can be considered immoral. Both are damaging to your relationship with your spouse and children (although obviously in different ways), but only one is likely to cause your death before you get to meet your grandchildren.

I just still do not agree that using a spouses infidelity for a "teachable moment" with your kids is appropriate. If they are older and want to talk to you about it, go ahead and listen. But jumping in with how wrong your spouse was and what a horrible thing your spouse did is not beneficial to the kids. It will just add to the hurt they are already feeling. I agree with IMA when she says

"Don't they already know it's a bad thing because their family is no longer together? Shouldn't you teach your children from the beginning that marriage is sacred and infidelity is wrong?"

Iamommy said: "If a child of six or eight can understand the concept of infidelity (emotional or physical) and the cheating parent has taken the child into the environment where they are cheating, the child becomes upset enough to not talk to the cheater for a month, would it serve any purpose to explain "daddy vowed to only be with me for the rest of his life, but he lied. That's wrong"?"

Exactly! I agree. No need to use it as a teachable moment with young children. I don't know if DD's SM said anything of the sort to her son. I hope she did not. I know, according to XMIL and DD, that she was devastated but it doesn't sound like she made it worse for her son. It sounds like he is doing better now.

Well put IAMOMMY and MOM2EMALL.

Being a parent requires a lot of selflesness, which means putting your childs feelings above your own. Dealing with a spouse cheating and leaving you would be difficult, but you have to keep your childrens feelings first. You should not add to their hurt over what has happened by bashing their other parent. If you want to badmouth your ex do it with friends when your children are not around, do not badmouth your ex to your children!

"tos, you are basically admitting that your kids figured it out immediately and told the younger ones? What's left to explain besides how hurt you are? That he destroyed your family? That he is wrong? Is telling your kids those things going to help them? Is it going to make them feel better about the situation? Is it going to make them feel good about themselves, or anything?"

IMO, what's left to explain is that their dad still loves them, and that while he made a serious mistake, that sometimes even good people make mistakes, and that their dad's mistake does not mean the children should stop loving their father, or even that they have to hate TOW. I'd explain that the mistake was a big one and that I'm really mad about it right now. But that I'll get over it and they will too. The most important thing, in my mind, is to take the topic off the list of "forbidden topics" so the kids are allowed to speak about it and their own feelings.

"Does it drive the point home to tell your child, "daddy left us for the other woman and he is wrong to do that". I don't even think that is what gets said, what really gets said? More likely...

"It's all his fault our family is broken up because he's a cheater"

I'd definitely say some version of the former (except substitute "moved out" for "left US") and never say the latter. If you can't do any better than the latter version, then DON'T talk to your kids about it.

"I seriously doubt that the person cheated on is going to calmly sit down the children and tactfully explain in age appropriate terms what has happened so that kids walk away feeling that life will be okay."

I don't think that the cheated on parent has a choice. It's not optional. Life does go on. Things will be okay. ALL parents should be offering that kind of comfort if the family splits up--for WHATEVER reason. You absolutely have to put your children above your own spiteful feelings no matter how hard it is.

sweeby & vivian,

I think we all agree on what should be said, if anything. But the reality is that when you find out, especially after a long term marriage, that your spouse is leaving you... who knows what emotions are driving you? Anger, fear, humiliation, devastation, etc. etc. and I hope my point is taken that if the cheated on person is the one trying to explain to the kids what has happened, in that initial emotional state, it would be hard to think rationally. I think everyone would agree that you should, but I've been out in public and have heard stressed out parents yell terrible things to their kids, just because they are having a bad day. I can imagine what some kids hear when they get home from school the day their mom or dad is left. It may be a different scenario if the parents are having problems and the decision to divorce is something they discussed or it's not a shock. Every situation is different.

In my opinion, it's up to the cheater to explain to the kids that he/she still loves them. It's up to the cheater to try and justify their actions to their kids. If mom is cheated on and tells the kids, your dad still loves you and your dad is a good person that just made a mistake, then how do you explain to them when the cheater stops seeing them or cuts back his time with them? I'd put the ball in his court completely. He made the mess, let him clean it up. My SD's mom abandoned her and it is tempting to comfort her with "your mom still loves you" or "I'm sure she misses you as much as you miss her" but I don't know if that's true. I could never leave my kids so I don't know what she's thinking. All I can say is that we are here for her and we love her. period.

and it goes without saying that it is always wrong to badmouth their other parent, that just hurts the child.

If the cheating spouse tells the children that cheating is acceptable, or if he or she refuses to discuss it at all, and the betrayed spouse doesn't say a word, not only is that elephant in the living room for the rest of their childhood, but the children are likely to grow up thinking cheating is ok.

Until my H left, the subject of infidelity had never come up with my younger kids - why would it?

tos
There is a big difference between saying that cheating is OK or refusing to speak about it and initiating unnecessary sharing of details with young children. I am surpised you do not see the difference.

I don't know what "unnecessary details" you are talking about. According to some of the SM's here, saying that your husband was dating another woman and that that is wrong is somehow an unnecessary detail.

tos, what do you consider necessary details? What exactly did you tell your kids?

Of course any woman would be an emotional mess when learning that the husband she loves and thought loved her is leaving her for another woman. Hurt, angry, baffled, devastated -- And of course, we've ALL heard frustrated-beyond-their-limits parents yelling terrible things at their kids.

But the thing is, just as Vivian says, responsible parents don't GET to indulge those feelings at the expense of their children's welfare. Responsible parents learn to manage and control their emotions sufficiently to put their chldren's welfare first. (Or at least, defer the emotional collapse until the children are out of earshot.) Responsible parents teach their children to manage their own emotions. (Not stifle, manage.)

TOS's point about "the elephant in the living room" is exactly what I was saying. The subject needs to be broachable.

Exactly Sweeby--when it comes to the kids, composure in the situation is NOT OPTIONAL. You don't get to melt down in front of them--no matter what the circumstances. It is not for them to comfort you--it is for you to comfort them.