Depending on what you are doing and the local requirements permits may not even be required. If you do tear out a wall definately get it permitted. Here is good ol Texas you can do a lot on your own without needing a permit. The guy down the street though decided he was going to put a room in his attic. The attic was never intended for this, he didn't get a permit and screwed up the work. It took over a year to sell it. I'm not sure how they resolved that one.

If you are hiring contractors and thier work requires a permit they may not want to do the work without them.

OK skip the permits - but screw up being able to sell your house.

Permits are a law. I do not or would NOT trust any contractor that would work for you and skip a permit. It's a huge sign they are going to rip you off.

This is just me, but when we were house-hunting 3 years ago, we found one in our neighborhood of choice with a beautiful new kitchen - however, when our realtor found out that the owner DIYed it without any permits, she advised that we walk. We agreed with her and did.

Even though permits were clearly required for our remodel, we interviewed one GC who said "Oh, I never permit a job like this". Discussing this with co-workers, I heard a couple of times that if there is a fire or some other disaster later on, the insurance company will not pay if the job wasn't permitted. I don't know if it's true or not.

We are getting permits, but it isn't taking long to get the inspections. My GC is arranging them, so maybe he set them up long ago. I have no idea.

Ours is a DIY project. We find that the inspectors, once they realize you're a good person doing a quality job, are very helpful. We have the city hall office on speed dial. In a couple instances, their advice has saved us from doing something needless.

However, it was a shock to us to learn that our "kitchen addition" permit did not cover electrical and plumbing; those permits cost us extra, both in time and in money at difficult moments.

Just because you're "opening up" a load bearing wall vs. removing it completely doesn't mean it won't need engineered support for the header. You need to know that your contractor is smart enough to figure that one out, or you could end up with your roof sagging. One sign that you have a good contractor is that he is licensed and bonded and works only on a properly permitted site. Shadetree trades of all varieties are out there with quality all over the map, but at least if you are getting their work inspected, you have a second layer of scrutiny beside your own.

In the scheme of things, "a week or two" is NOTHING in the timeline of a kitchen remodel. However, that can translate to "a year or two" on the market if you go to sell and have done renovations without permits. If you have Shadetree Bob open up that load bearing wall and do it incorrectly and you end up with a sagging roof, your insurance company will tell you "tough luck". If you have a fire from unpermitted electrical, it's also "tough luck". If you have a neighbor turn you in, and you WILL, you will not only have a couple of week delay, but fines to face and then a MUCH tougher inspection environment from the codes people.

It is SO worth it to pay for that second set of eyes to look at your project! Doing a kitchen is such a once or twice in a lifetime project, why WOULDN'T you do it right from the beginning?

We are so on a budget, pulled the permits ourselves and are having non-liscenced guys do the work for us. Total for remodeling 700 sq ft (including taking down load bearing wall) and changing out 26 windows in our house was less than $200 in permits. The inspector has been out to our house for a footer inspection, framing inspection, mechanical inspection and drywall inspection. Each took less than 10 minutes and he arrived within a half hour of us calling the office.

I don't know what it is like in your neck of the woods, but I am glad we pulled permits.

The need for permits varies depending on what you are doing and where you live. For example, in our case removing sheetrock, adding outlets, etc.., does require a permit and inspection; but no permit is required to replace kitchen cabinets, put in a new sink, or hang new light fixtures. The town next to us does require permits for almost all of that.

As far as owning a house where there is un-permitted work, you take your chances. If caught, even if some previous owner did the work; you could be required to remove it, take it down, or pay a significant fine.

With new home building almost non existent in many parts of the country, inspections rarely delay a project and permit costs really are a small part of any job. Taking out a load bearing wall shouldn't be a big engineering issue. Obviously you'll need at least one beam, and the supplier can usually stamp the drawings. Even if you only open up the wall, it's still a structural change. There are code requirements as to size of header, etc. In most places you would still need a permit. If one can't afford the permits, then maybe one should rethink the doing of the project.

Right, it varies locally. Where we live, permits are required to replace kitchen cabinets.

We had one plumber who was supposed to do our tankless water heater who told us no permit was needed. That is NOT true (and also dangerous)! We found another plumbing company that installs most of the of tankless in the area, and they told us BOTH a plumbing and an electrical permit were needed and they would take care of that. The city did come out and inspect it and the company had to correct some minor detail. In summary, at least we know our tankless is safe.

You have to check your city/county government websites. Bottom line, it is the owner's responsibility, and if do a seller's disclosure that jobs were properly permitted and they weren't, you can be sued. Or if you disclose they weren't permitted, good luck trying to sell.

Having older homes that have changed owners several times, you can almost assume that some PO or their relative DIY'd something that is not up to code.

pull the permits. the fact that you are posting and asking tells me you have nagging doubts. like others have referenced above, when i was house hunting i came across properties that had been updated without permits. i passed, not willing to take the chance.

Unless you are a licensed code official in all disciplines that will be involved in the job (structural, plumbing, electrical, etc) how exactly will you make sure the contractors are "up to code"...ESPECIALLY if they are unlicensed and/or willing to work an illegal job?

In addition, be aware that if any problem results from the kitchen remodel that requires an insurance claim related to any of the work done on the remodel, the lack of permits and approvals means that you are willingly handing your insurance company the perfect excuse on a silver platter to deny your claim. ..and drop you from coverage.

Last but not least, depending on how old your home is, if built before 1978 there is a FEDERAL EPA requirement that ALL contractors comply with the strict new lead paint rules.
Future buyers will want proof that any renovation performed was done in accordance with the EPA rules.

Realize that when the housing market was red hot, many buyers did not care about these things...they assumed if anything was done wrong, the house would appreciate so much so quickly they could easily afford repairs.

Now, the days of easy home equity lending are over, buyers want to get the best value for the buck, and they don't want to deal with the possibility that the work was not done correctly, so they move on to the next house....of which there are many.

If none of the above matters to you, then permits are a non-issue.

Otherwise...not.

Here is a link that might be useful: EPA Announces Lead Paint Rules Now in Full Effect

If you ever need to file an insurance claim, have fun explaining to your agent why you didn't feel it was necessary to get a permit. Bad idea not to get a permit. I totally understand your concerns and building inspectors can be a nightmare, but in the end it is just plain smart to get one.

We got our job permitted. In our case it was a necessity due to a anonymous neighbor who turns in any job in the neighborhood, whether they need a permit or not (had to show the inspector who showed up at our house our before pictures of our backyard upgrade a few years ago to prove we didn't need a permit)
In the kitchen remodel there was nothing structural, but there was a lot of new lighting/electrical and new windows. The permit only added one day to the job when there was a miscommunication between the GC and the inspector. It only cost a little more and I have peace of mind (priceless!). I know the job was done right and I have the papers to prove it.

It seems odd that a down market should make permitting harder. I would think it would be the opposite. The city workers are all still there, but less building would seem like they could cut down the backlog.

I have a few friends that had to redo their work because it did not have a permit in order to sell their house. Do it right the 1st time. In my old neighborhood the town goes looking for unpermitted work. My neighbor was replacing a few porch floor boards and had to prove to the town that it was not a replacement but a repair. Big fines for not getting permits there.

Resale can be a nightmare if permits should have been pulled and weren't. Selling my parents' home after their deaths has bee incredibly time consuming and costly because my Dad was a DIYer who did great work (as the plumber and electrician said) but none of it was inspected. We had to make some large consessions to the buyers which was a drag.

Suz

I live in Kennesaw, GA, and from my understanding (please correct if wrong) unless you are having new or altered electrical, plumbing, gas or structure work performed, a permit is not required.

We are having our kitchen renovated but using the same footprint, only replacing what is already there with upgraded cabinets, sink, and range instead of cooktop. We won't be moving or adding any walls, electrical, gas or plumbing.

We permitted up the wazoo, as required - general construction, plumbing, electrical and HVAC. We removed from consideration any contractors who pooh-pooh'd the idea of permits. Our house is our single biggest financial asset, and it seems insane to let a few hundred bucks and a few weeks' delay matter in that context.

BTW, we were very grateful that we did permit when the Department of Buildings flagged our project for a random compliance audit (lucky us, only about 10% of projects get double-checked) and we had a week's notice before an inspector dropped by to go over the work with a fine-tooth comb. Had we not been able to produce the relevant plans and permits on demand, it would have been a nightmare of fines and red tape.

Permits = Peace of Mind...:)

It may be a hassle, but for any work that needs a permit, take the time. Go read the rules and follow them.

Let's say you skip the permits for something that requires a permit and everything is OK until the place goes up for sale ... at which point the home inspector checks the difference between what you are selling and what the appraiser's records say you have.

Finding un-permitted work is a HUGE red flag for a buyer, because they have no clue what happened during the work.

And you can be required to get it inspected, which in the case of wiring means ripping open walls. In some areas you have to completely remove the un-permitted stuff and start over.

Licensed contractors can lose their license for working on non permitted jobs. It's a lot to ask one of them to risk.

In my area, electricians just won't do it. Plumbers are pretty flexible, as are GCs.

I got a health dept review acceptance Friday to add a shower to a mud room. It took 6-7 weeks, and the permit request starts tomorrow. Supposedly it is quick. The health thing cost $460 and they didn't so much as call, just paperwork.

The 6-7 weeks wait really messed the contractor's schedule up.

King County WA

Electrical and Plumbing permits are usually separate and have to be obtained by the subcontractor, an attempt to ensure a licensed sub is used. An unlicensed electrical or plumbing contractor can't pull a permit. If you want to drastically increase your odds of getting a fly-by-night electrician, skip the permits.

A fb friend had a huge fire that destroyed her home 3 months ago. It was left in ruins. Her house was insured for $210k, but the insurance company is only offering $170k. I didn't understand until my sister explained to me that they didn't get permits for their work...and didn't pay tax value on the improved amount. She was supposed to get a decision today..Now, there is something about the insurance company setting the value themselves...but we'll see.
The way of looking at permits is that the municipality is on YOUR side, protecting YOU from the unscrupulous characters out there.

All great comments folks and gives me plenty motivation to do it right. I'm in the Silicon Valley of Northern California, one of the hardest hit places for the housing market. Since the economy dump, many city depts and services got pink slipped. Hence the staff cut, longer waits, higher fees.

The permits will add approx. $800 or more to my project, depending on what's done. But yes, I'll be looking to permit the whole kit'n kaboodle. Electrical, gas extension, structural changes, flooring, cabinets. And yes, they inspect everything. But not only is it the cost of permits and time, it's now the drawing plans I'll have to have made that adds more costs.

By the time all the estimates are in and total costs are calculated, I may end up just skipping it. We'll see...

I called our village 'permit' department and said that we were remodeling our kitchen. She asked if any structural changes were being made and I said no. Are we just replacing cabinets and appliances? Yes, and refinishing floors and adding elec outlets on walls where elec already exists. I told her we were moving our double oven and ref a few feet each, on the same wall. No plumbing moved. She shocked me and said no, no permit necessary. If we were moving walls, then yes.

I think permits are a good thing and will keep the licensing of people in mind when I make my final decisions.

I wouldn't bet that an insurance company would deny a claim for houses not up to code. Perhaps, but, we have a 1922 cottage where the elec is up to code on the main floor but the second floor still has knob and tube. Very little in that old place would be up to today's code but we filed a claim for a critter chewing up the flexible heating ducts in our 2 foot high crawl space (only flexible ducts would fit!) and it was paid. They have insured our old house for the past 8 years, knowing that it was built in 1922. At insurance inception, we filled out a form stating the age and condition of the major systems. They accepted our premium and had the opportunity to inspect the house. The insurer knew that it was old and where it didn't meet today's standards, it was acceptable to our very fussy town by grandfathering in all it's 'peculiarities'. The cottage is in a fancy little town with a fancy reputation.

Adding to that, we have used the same insurer for our house of 33 years and at least two cars for 35 years. A few small claims over that period-claims for acts which couldn't be avoided-and small amounts of money. They are a good company and we are good policyholders-careful with stuff.

So they paid the critter claim without a question in a house-so not up to code, or today's code.

Being one of those "Building Inspectors" I get phone calls all the time for home owners asking questions or having problems after the fact. Come to find out -- NO permit was pulled no way to go after the contractor, Now they have to get the permits and then spend more money fixing the problems left. All that could have been bypassed by getting the required permits and following the inspections.

Now with that said, we do not babysit contractors, we cannot be on site 24/7 and as hard as we try we do not always catch all but we do catch alot.

If you even think there is something wrong, most inspectors will come out and check with just a phone call above and beyond the required inspections.

One thing I tell all our residents, tie payment, cash advances to passing inspections. If a contrator is up and up they have no problems with that.

hi bamboone2007-

i can relate, live in N. CA as well and everything is very expensive. but still think this is not the place to cut costs. my project is running over budget too (largely due to my own scope creep) and i am doing things like demo, painting and tiling to cut costs. re: costs for drawings to submit for the permits, with some creativity you may be able to use existing drawings from your vendors like cabinet layout diagram etc. not sure you need to reinvent the wheel? something to consider...

Hi, bubushka cat.

thanks for your input. i need to hear from someone else in our area. are you in san jose? a friend of mine submitted kitchen remodel and addition plans to SJ city for review. they told them it'll take a month to hear back. ridiculous!!! how long will each inspection then take to coordinate? yikes im afraid to ask...another month!?

i was going to use the cabinet layout as you suggested, but the wall removal, i dont know how to do that. more costs there now. oh boy

I'm adding to the thread just to vent. Our permits were $6K. Really. We live in a little incorporated town in between the city and the suburbs ... there is really no business here, so property taxes and permitting type stuff are some of the few ways for them to raise income. I haven't totaled our job yet, but I'm guessing somewhere near $200K, and it did include wall removal and engineering stuff, and lots of electrical, and I never considered NOT permitting, but GEEZ!!!

Okay, rant over.

am in the east bay. my job is kitchen only, sounds like smaller job than yours. mine can be submitted and approved at the counter, 1 day approval. i have budgeted 1K for permits. good luck with your project!

westsider40: "I wouldn't bet that an insurance company would deny a claim for houses not up to code. Perhaps, but, we have a 1922 cottage where the elec is up to code on the main floor but the second floor still has knob and tube. Very little in that old place would be up to today's code but we filed a claim for a critter chewing up the flexible heating ducts in our 2 foot high crawl space (only flexible ducts would fit!) and it was paid."

The claim denial has nothing to do with "being up to code"...it has to do with performing an illegal renovation that may be the cause of the claim. Without permits, there are no verifiable plans...you are therefore out of luck proving that something that was or was not done with the renovation did not cause the fire, flood, etc.

That said, knob and tube is "grandfathered" in most if not all jurisdictions in terms of code compliance. However, during the last couple of years, many of the major insurers will not insure a home with K&T once title changes..or will charge a huge premium to insure.

That means that if or when you sell, the buyers may not be able to obtain insurance...or they will have to pay quite a bit extra for that insurance, unless there is an electrical upgrade.

This is because most K&T is not in perfect condition and/or it is difficult to verify that it is all in good shape, as much is hidden behind walls.It is also difficult to find parts to repair K&T when required..or to even find an electrician willing to do so and who knows HOW to do so...and for a reasonable cost.

Last but not least...once you renovate, in most places, grandfathered things such as K&T are no longer "grandfathered" and must be brought up to current code.

In our small NJ town, three people who had fires who also had illegally finished basements were denied their insurance claim.

For those who can afford to take that gamble..so be it...but bear in mind the cost can be a LOT more expensive than permits...especially if injury and/or death occurs.

The best argument for pulling a permit that I heard was that, on sale of the house, if a permit was required, you can still get one after the fact. But you will then have to adhere to the current codes. If the job is permitted then it is acceptable, no matter what future codes may be. Some of the changes required by failing to get a permit when the work is done can be quite costly.

yes, all. Again excellent comments in support of permit. I was hoping to avoid it, but if I want it right with no ghosts coming out later, permits must be done.

Logic, well said.

Nevertheless, our old 1922 cottage has had many, many, neglectful owners. It is on a sand dune facing a beach. We think it was just built as a summer home and later winterized. Additions and changes galore over the many years and some so poorly done. I doubt that permits were even a requirement during the times that most work was done.

Our insurance claim adjustor made a personal visit or two to the house this autumn when we had the critter claim. She was inside and outside. I wasn't there.

The township assessor has been inside and outside at least three times when we protested our exorbitant taxes. The assessor is very much in bed with the town because the town gets a hunk of the taxes. It's a very 'good ole boy'+ favoritism, political place. Teeny, nosy. The town knows all about our house's flaws-and everyone's house.

Illegal work visually hits you in the head the minute you even look at the place.

It is insured. The claim was paid. Our insurance was not cancelled. Our premium has not risen.

I believe you and the others who state that insurers have penalized homeowners for having non-permitted work or illegal work. But we were not penalized. I am FOR permits.

I guess I go a little against the flow here. In my area, getting permits in general sucks. you need one for everything, technically. However, mostly they're not gotten, because they take time, weeks-months for anything, require drawings etc.

I personally wouldn't get them if I weren't changing footprints/moving walls. In the past I haven't in that situation. My current "project" will involve a whole house remodel/reconfigure. i am getting a permit for that one.

Depending on the area/inspector, it doesn't necessarily mean a higher quality job. If it isn't onerious or costly, I probably would do it.... but you should get a contractor that you trust, that has good references, b/c it isn't a catch all.

I got one for the kitchen due to the electical work, a wall being moved and a window being closed up. I think they are a joke, based on the what the inspecter did on the roof permit and AC permit.