Welcome back, Pal !!!!!
Yikes! Are you legally allowed to deduct for all the repairs and parts - smoke detectors, etc.? I would hope so. The beer cup and reports would lead me to refuse to pay for their coffee maker, and would advise they are in turn lucky to not get a bill for the roof repairs.

None of the holes are normal wear and tear.
The broken globe fanlight is not normal wear and tear.
The black stains are not normal wear and tear.
If the chalk simply wipes off, not worth bothering about.
The missing smoke detectors are not normal wear and tear.

In our city, if we wrongly withold a deposit, we must pay treble damages. Fortunately, we've never had a problem here.

OMG. That definitely sounds like more than normal wear and tear.
In my county, the landlord/tenant handbook spells out exactly what counts as wear and tear and what doesn't, including size of holes, etc.. Your county may have the same or have an office where you can inquire.
Did you have an inspection list that both of you signed off on when they moved in? If not, do you have pictures of the before?

Tennis ball size holes are definitely not "normal."
The smoke detectors definitely need to be replaced and paid for as well as the broken globe light.
Is the chalk easily removable? Either way, it doesn't sound like normal wear and tear on walls.
For the carpet, it also depends on how long they lived in there, i.e. lifetime of a carpet is, I believe, 5 years.
Would the roofer confirm that there was a beer cup in the spout?
I would document everything as much as possible and then subtract the cost. Is there a landlord/tenant office that deals with these issues if they protest it?

Here is a link that might be useful: Landlord/tenant info

This post was edited by nosoccermom on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 9:47

I think that goes well beyond normal wear and tear. I would disregard burned out lightbulbs but the carpet sounds like a definite issue and no question about holes in walls. It's not like just nail holes. Same with broken/missing fixtures. I'd overlook the smoke detectors if they were still there and just needed new batteries but you'll need to purchase new replacements.

I remember when they moved in. It wasn't that long ago, was it? Like only one or two years?

I remember your post when renting to them, and all you did to validate their wants. Didn't their parents also sign the lease? Not sure if I read this or not.

Did you do a walk through with them after moving out and have them sign anything regarding damage? I'd get them back ASAP and do so. Take a ton of pics, receipts for what they asked for and taking care of damage. This may end up being a small claims action. Unless their deposit is enough to cover the damage. I would never leave a place in that condition. And bet they know better.

We have several units in a few different cities. My husband deals with them. He does not take security deposits (per our lawyer) because in our state you are liable for triple amount of deposit if you cannot prove it is the tenant's fault (in court). We just chalk it up to the cost of doing business. We repaint after every tenant and frequently refloor, etc.. Replace missing smokes/co2/lights/window screens...

Tenants never treat the rental unit as you would your own. The court frequently sides with the tenants... And the "bad" landlords make the news but never the tenants. It's really eye opening being a landlord.

Make a list of the issues and the costs to remediate them. I'm sure their deposit doesn't cover the entire amount. Send them a bill for the amount it doesn't cover. Or, better yet, send their parents the bill. As with everything, document, document, document.

I know landlord/tenant law differs from state to state, but in my state, landlords can keep any or all of the deposit for fixing items beyond "normal wear and tear".

The holes from the TV brackets would be normal wear and tear unless you specifically forbade them in the lease. The hole in the door would not be. Neither would be the "art" on the walls. Take those out of the deposit.

Repainting between tenants is considered the landlord's responsibility and is commonly done. And since you agreed on the colors, I don't think there is an issue here.

Throwing away the smoke detectors is destroying your property. They need to replace those. The broken light is also destruction. Take it out of the deposit.

If the carpet cannot be cleaned, then they are responsible for the damage. You can determine how much to charge them.

I would not worry about their coffee maker. If they put up a stink, remind them of the beer cup in the downspout.

I have to say, I would have *never* treated a rental property like this, regardless of age. Don't go *easy* on them. Charge them what is fair and what is in your right.

This post was edited by geokid on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 10:00

Here is a pretty good discussion of "normal wear and tear" versus "damage."

Here is a link that might be useful: Damage vs wear and tear

Send them a registered letter informing them that
you are using the security deposit to fix the damages
that are above the normal wear and tear. If there is any money
left over you'll refund it. If it's not enough to cover the damages
you will bill them for the shortfall.
I doubt you'll be hearing from them again.
good luck, j

Pal - did you do a walk through with them?

I can only relate the experiences my 3 kids have had with landlords while renting in Philly. One rented from Bart Blatstein in the Piazza buildings and Tower (Bart's company) gave my son a lengthy list of deductions for 'damage'.

Of course he never gave them credit for the fact that they took a month to repair the dishwasher, 2 weeks to repair the hot water tank and the 2 year long battle with mice.

My other son is an attorney in Philly and he knew the procedures both landlord and tenant must follow when vacating. I'm not up to the details but the walk through with both parities together was crucial. The second is that the landlord has to provide an itemized list of damages but if i remember correctly also an itemized list of repair costs. He couldn't just say "You owe me x$ for cleaning."

Many of the larger corporate rentals don't bother forllowing procedures because they assume most renters are unaware of their rights.

A lot of it will also depend on how the lease was worded.

Personally I think your 3 tenants owe you for every repair you cited.

The leak in the roof is a done deal. I think it was a combination of heavy rain and the litter on the roof, but I took responsibility for that.

Here it is standard that if something is attached to the walls they are supposed to leave it (shelves etc.). In my rentals I was charged for any hole larger than a small nail used to hang a picture.

I actually don't care that much about a number of these items, because we needed to patch and repaint anyway. I don't even care about the carpet that much.

But the house clearly would not have been ready for the next renting tenant with a quick clean-up, which is how properties are supposed to be left.

I think they were both kind of clueless and entitled about the whole thing. But that speaks of a certain percentage of that age group.

I have a patient who stopped doing seasonal rentals of her vacation house because she said too many people moved in demanding the Ritz and leaving it like a rent by the hour Motel 6. One family who cursed at her cleaning service because there was a burnt out bulb in a bathroom broke two window screens and the hose bib, and hid their trash rather than taking it with them.

Really I was ready to give most of it back except for some unpaid utility bills but there has been some disagreement about this at home.

Wow, I remember when these girls moved in-I was surprised at how accomodating you were with their color demands.

Second what has been noted above. Light bulbs are not normal w/t-but the defaced walls, broken light fixture, and removed smoke alarms are their responsibility.

From a tenants POV-we temporarily lived in a rental home and had had a good relationship with the landlord. We ended up having to move rather suddenly (out of town job change) but we paid her for the full 30 day notice, even though we moved within 10 days. We had lived there less than 6 months, regardless, she presented us with a 3 page list of 'damages' at the end of the month. Included on her list was replacing ALL the light bulbs in the house; replacing the wall paper in a bathroom-the border she'd put up fell down in one piece after one shower! We rolled it up and put it in the cupboard, intact. A charge for a new garden hose (we'd left ours behind hooked up to a sprinkler so we could water the lawn she'd let die before we'd moved in). The mailbox had to be removed per the USPS (they'd installed a community box) so we'd left it in the garage for her, so she charged us for a new mailbox. Charge to replace all the carpets (previous tenant had cut a hole in one and that had been shown to us on our move in, which she apparently forgot). She also charged us to replace the linoleum in one of the bathrooms because it had turned black near the toilet She had written in her demand it was because I'd bathed my children in the tub and water splashed on the floor. Turned out it was faulty plumbing SHE'D installed prior to our move in that caused black mold to grow between the floor and the linoleum under the toilet. She even charged to replace the stove, because it was dirty (I'd cleaned it before we left, but didn't clean the glass in the door). The list went on and on. We later found out that she'd had 6 vacancies all at once, and 4 of the six had skipped out on rent and we were her only tenants who she could come after. Also that she'd been renting to Section 8 and HUD had paid to redo the home we'd rented before we'd moved in. She had a history of shoddy repairs and would blame tenants rather than her cheapness. We prevailed, owed her not one thin dime-but what a nightmare that was!

Burnt out light bulbs are normal wear and tea. Chalk drawings are within a general cleaning charge unless they do not come off the walls. Nail holes are normal. Anything larger thana pencil point to a small pencil eraser is not.

The carpet stains are probably not normal wear unless just a a small spot, but they may not rise to recovering the cost of replacement. I would try Capture dry rug cleaner. I have alternated Capture with wet treatments (sparkling water, enzyme for pet, oxyclean for food-based stains, Dawn for oily, Spot Shot for stubborn greasy or ink type) and have been able to get just about anything out of off white carpet in several houses. ,

Make sure you know what you can charge for and document everything, They gave every indication they will challenge whatever you do. If you are going to rent to college kids, I think you are going to have to toughen up or you will be targeted by the entire network of entitled slobs and worse. It's your property -- you are the boss.

Since I'm not a landlord, I don't have any comments about your sloppy tenants, except I'm glad I'm not a landlord.

I wanted to let you know I sent you an email thru GW in case it went into your spam folder.

Pal I would write out a detailed list of the damage with the cost of repairs keep photos and then submit a bill to them. I am not sure if that is how it is done in the US but here when you can substantiate your claim you can keep the deposit and apply for more.

Auntie Ellen - sounds like a scary business to be in in your state.

Definitely not normal wear and tear.

One thing I've learned from watching Judge Judy is landlords need to take before and after pictures...before the tenant moves in and after they move out...to prove the need for keeping security deposits and if they want to sue for more damages. Helps if the photos are dated too.

My parents went through so much carp as landlords, but it was worthwhile at the time and gave them a good investment base as real estate prices were rising so much. But nowadays, financial investments just seem so much lower maintenance.

Even if you were going to redo walls and carpets I would still hold them fiscally responsible for their damage just because I think you are so right about their generation's clueless entitlement attitude. If we, the adults, do not hold today's youth accountable for their actions than they will continue to show little respect for others and their property . By charging them for the fire alarms, which placed you in a horrible legal position ( for if there were a fire and there were no working alarms you could have found yourself in jail), kicked in door and graffiti you are helping their next landlord possibly avoid such irresponsible damage.

We own several rental properties which my husband manages. In forty years, he has never not given back a deposit. His feeling is, win some, lose some.

Most times it is a win situation and here is why. He has become expert at interviewing. Sometimes he will visit prospect tenants in their current home. He reads them the "riot act". We run a clean, quiet building. If this is not your lifestyle than this is not the place for you. If there are complaints from the other tenants, you will have to leave. This is all upfront and so some choose not to take the apartment.

We also rent at a slightly lower rent than competitors. We get people who can truly afford the apartment this way.

As stated in the many posts above, you need to know what your laws are. But, I would imagine you could bill them for the smoke alarms and the cleaning of the dirty carpet. In the properties we own, the landlord is not required to paint. Most times we do, but sometimes not.
If all the damages add up to greater than the deposit I would make them aware, but not ask them for the extra.
They will know that you are justified in keeping the deposit.
BTW Nice seeing you again.

Pal, I used to own a property in University City. I lived on the first floor for five years, no problems with tenants (three other units) while we were there. Later I had a tenant in a studio who spray painted graffiti on the kitchen cabinets, ruining them. They left the place filthy, needless to say. I did not return the security deposit. Then I got a letter saying I was being sued in small claims court by the former tenant. So off I went to defend myself. The court was packed with all sorts of people with "small claims". Remember this is Philly, so it was not the crowd you might want to spend a lot of time with. I waited and waited and waited. Hours. It was now night time (remember Night Court?). Finally, my case was called. The former tenant failed to show and the case was dismissed. It was an entirely miserable experience and I had to walk back to my car alone in the dark.

Yes, you should keep every dime of their security deposit. You deserve it and it will teach them a lesson. However, there is the chance that you could have an experience like mine.

Ditto to what Roarah wrote about the smoke alarms. The tenants put your property (and part of your livelihood) at grave risk. So don't just write that part off.

(The stupid kids didn't even know how to change a battery in a smoke alarm? When it wouldn't shut off, they didn't know enough to call a parent or a friend and ask what to do? Or make a phone call to you? Sheesh. I feel sorry for their next landlords, who undoubtedly will think they're renting to 3 young women but are sadly unaware of the company they will keep.)

Tenants disabling smoke detectors instead of buying batteries is par for the course around here. Just watch the news about house - apartment fires. They often mention disabled smoke detectors in the story.

Most likely they will get all their deposit back except for the obvious unpaid utility bills.

Philadelphia is very tenant based, as some of you know. The tenants would not have had to leave at the end of their lease unless the property was sold, or because I, the owner, was moving in. It's very hard to remove tenants to then rent to someone else. It's probably just easier for me to be done with it and ignore the damages.

I mostly wanted to see what people thought of these conditions. Around here I think this condition on move-out is not that uncommon. It's interesting though, at the hardware and some other places I mentioned doing repairs after a tenant moved, I got several unsolicited "Girls are the Worst" in terms of being dirty and allowing things to run down. Apparently young guys may be slightly more destructive, but they tend to do minor repairs, change lightbulbs, batteries and such on their own, and tend to be a bit cleaner. So I've heard. The small bathroom in this house was brand new at closing (and ten days later when the house was rented out) and I don't think it was cleaned Once in the two years the tenants lived there.

I don't think you can bring parents into this unless they co-signed the lease...these girls are adults legally. Is it possible to just do nothing and see if they contact you regarding their deposit? Sounds like they were in party mode the whole time--leaving unpaid bills as well as trashing the place and they may totally forget they are owed a deposit. If not, can you send them a letter stating that you are not returning their deposit in order to repair/replace the following....Honestly, I think this is the nature of young adults...they could care less about a house--it's just a place to flop. My son was raised in a decent, clean home and to take care of his things. When we picked him up from college one year, I nearly had a stroke when I saw the condition of his and his roomate's apt. I won't go into details, but let's just say the Health Dept. would have had a field day! (though no structural damage to walls, etc.) He was a good student, is a great kid, very responsible, etc...just could care less about that stuff. In fact, he just relocated back here and lived with us for 3 months--we told him no eating in his room and for the most part he complied, but the room was a disaster--never made the bed or changed the sheets ( i would go in and yank them off and put new ones on the bed he had to put on), clothes everywhere, etc....I just shut the door.

I hope you get the resolution/restitution you deserve. I dont think they are entitled to any $$. Good luck!

Just a few comments:
1. It's not age related how tenants treat a house.
2. I live in an extremely tenant friendly jurisdiction, but the majority of the damage would not be considered normal wear and tear.

I am not a landlord, but wow. The only things that I would not consider egregious enough to deduct from the deposit would be the slow drains and burned out light bulbs and the chalk IF it comes off easily. (Though really, when is it ok, past the age of say 4 or 5, to write on the walls?) Anything broken or damaged (not including small nail holes in walls) or dirty and requiring professional cleaning seems unacceptable to me. The only other exception would be if they were really long term tenants that had otherwise been model renters. That sure does not seem to fit the bill with these women. You sound like you were prompt in responding to any problems with the property, which is really all you can do. Best of luck. I hope the laws in your area are on your side. (Sorry I don't know anything about landlord/rental/tenant laws.) Also, maybe I need to get to know some people like your former tenants, they must throw a mean party!

DD1 rented many apartments and a cottage over the 10 years she lived in CA. Each and everyone was so clean when she moved out that one said he should double her deposit, another said you could eat off the floor. They were all in move in condition.

You have every right and should keep every single penny of their deposit in order to make the townhouse the way it was the day they rented. These girls are not going to bother taking you to small claims court. They don't care.

Speaking as a parent of three adult children, if you do not send them a letter with detailed amounts you'll be keeping from their damage, you are sending them the wrong message. They are adults and should know there are consequences for their actions. Otherwise they will continue acting like a$$hats. You would be doing them a disservice by treating their highly inappropriate behavior and destruction of other people's property by giving them back the deposit only minus the power bills.

For the record, in the past we owned over 200 rental houses. My father owned a large apartment complex for 20 years. We currently own several commercial properties. None of our tenants ever lefted an enormous mess, although one angry GF broke in a duplex, threw ex's clothes on bed, new GF on sofa and set them on fire. Luckily the grandpa woke up and got himself and grandchild out of the side and no one was injured. If anyone left damage at the apartment complex it came out of their deposit. Neither of us were ever taken to small claims court.

This post was edited by allison0704 on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 22:13

Pretty much what Allison said.

When I was a student in Philadelphia looking to rent, I did a lot of reading up on landlord/tenant laws so that I wouldn't get screwed over too badly. Of course I still ended up in a sh*thole owned by a slumlord who couldn't be bothered to repair major items or even keep the heat running all winter, but I was just a college student and everyone knows college students are all worthless human beings who don't deserve to have a decent place to live or be treated with respect, right? Right.

Anyway, point being with regard to security deposits: you cannot just withhold arbitrary amounts of money and then do as you please with it. You are required to return the deposit within 30 days to the forwarding address you've been given (if you haven't been given one within 30 days then you don't have to / "can't" return it - it's suggested to tenants that they send this by certified letter so the landlord can't pretend he didn't get it). If you withhold any money for repairs, you need to itemize them and be able provide receipts / invoices / etc. for what you've spent on repairs. If you don't, you can be taken to small claims court. So in this instance it sounds like that would be wall repair + drain cleaning + general cleaning + carpet cleaning or replacement. If that adds up to more than the actual security deposit, you can't charge them extra.

Of course, you can just go ahead and (illegally) withhold a small arbitrary amount of money anyway and hope that the students will find it small enough and/or will be uneducated about the law enough that they won't want to take you to court for it. That's what my landlords always did. Am I going to take you to court over a $25 charge for cleaning the stove when I know perfectly well that you won't clean it, because it was dirtier when I arrived than it was when I left? No, of course not. And you wouldn't have been able to even quibble over THAT because I was perfectly prepared to clean the stove before I left, only my parents yelled at me that we didn't have time for that and no one would care anyway when I started to do it - because proper adults are always more clean and more responsible than college students, everyone knows.

PA law below on security deposits.

From Nolo, a comparison of damage/excessive filth vs wear/tear, e.g.

Minor marks on or nicks in wall vs Large marks on or holes in wall

Dents in the wall where a door handle bumped it vs Door off its hinges

A few small tack or nail holes in wall vs Lots of picture holes or gouges in walls that require patching as well as repainting

A rug worn thin by normal use vs Stains in rug caused by a leaking fish tank

You don't need to have the receipts for damage/cleaning, but you need to send an itemized list within 30 days

Here is a link that might be useful: PA security deposit

I agree with Allison. They need to learn a lesson now. When I was in college, every rental was left in as good as or better condition than when I moved into the apartment. This is not, imho, a matter of all kids today, but rather just the ones you rented to this time. They need to learn that you cannot treat others or the property of others in such a disgraceful way and get away with it. I am appalled by the way they left your place and it really does them no favors to just let it go. They will figure that this is the normal way of things if you do.

Agree with Allison and her followers.

Well, based on what I have learned about the cost of drywall repair, it's wildly expensive, and while I don't know the security deposit, one tennis ball sized hole could easily cost $400 here. I know that much!

If you have a handyman you use for a lot of small jobs and who does similar jobs for others or you can DIY, it may not be that much, but you can easily get into $500-1000 minimums in drywall work because doing them right means several trips to allow for mud to dry, be sanded and done again, dry, then texture which also has to dry, then paint -- 2 coat minimum if you do it right -- and that's assuming you don't prime first.

If you can DIY, you can do a lot of drywall repair for $50 in materials. That's one reason receipts only go so far. A company that owns lots of apartment buildings is not going to purchase per tenant each time they have to make a repair. The charged do need to be reasonable, and in a jurisdiction that requires receipts, time records for the repairs and a reasonable hourly rate should also be allowed. Most repairs and service people in my area start at $75-90/hr.

Agree with Allison and her followers.

I have "followers?!" ;) That made me laugh, thanks.

fwiw, Pal and I have discussed this via email, and we both know about itemizing repairs, keeping tickets, etc.

Pal, you are being way too kind even considering to not deduct necessary funds for repairs. Please, please reconsider. Life lessons.

I say you keep it, and if they should question it, you threaten them to sue them for the amount over and above the money you have to put out. They know they don't deserve their deposit.

Take a lot of photos (I'm sure you did already). Even a video.

Send them an inflated (if even necessary) listing of all the issues and costs. And the smoke alarms? Oh, not only do you get to charge them for the actual smoke alarms, assess a fine per smoke detector for each one that was removed.

I know this is different but we had an issue with dd at PSU, worst landlord situation I have ever seen. They actually made up stuff in order to keep the deposit. My husband & I were the ones who went, cleaned and had the place sparkling. We even took photos for proof. Put in NEW smoke alarm batteries. They dinged them for unbelievable things, including smoke alarm batteries, and fined them for not having working ones...umm, they were working just fine. We told them we had photos as proof, they told us they didn't look at photos as proof. Kid you not. Someone saw the photo of the stove after we cleaned it, and actually asked if that was our new stove in our kitchen reno!

So, I do not think under any circumstance you owe them anything. Buy them a $5 coffee pot at Walmart if necessary and tell them you have no proof of what the condition of their coffee pot was. Somehow I think they are living somewhere and using their coffee pot just fine.

This is what the security deposit is for, please don't give them back their money!

oh, and welcome back.

we missed you!

My son is in college and in an apartment... rents a bedroom (4 bedroom unit) and they share the common areas. He is getting ready to move out July 31 and he just received his check out list. We even have to pay for all light bulbs (burned out or not) to be replaced! The check out list is beyond belief...they charge for everything! I don't think "normal wear and tear" is in their vocabulary. With that said - everyone should have to pay for damage they have caused. I think we can all look around our homes and know what normal wear and tear is - beyond that, they are responsible. Hopefully you have a large security deposit.

Whatever you decide to do ... make sure you follow your state's laws on rentals and deposits. .

Usually you need to send them an itemized list of the damages (I would include before/after pictures) and any remaining deposit within 30 days.

Allison, you made me laugh. You were much nicer in what you said than at least two drafts of notes I never posted, so I decided to join the train of "agree with Allison" posts.

We received 4 photos from my son's university attempting to justify charges they have made against him and his roommates. They consist of a small spot on the inside of a kitchen drawer, a small mark at the back of a closet and a small and slight mark on a wall marked by blue painters tape. The tape shows the mark is probably about a pencil point width and an inch and a half to two inches long. There is another piece of tape but I can't tell what it is supposed to be marking. That's wall damage and excessive cleaning in their minds. We are also being charged for unspecified damages in the dorm common areas. Only today did they indicate this was on his floor - and I saw nothing when I was there. It's incredible.....

"I don't think they were bad tenants, but they were not great tenants."

Pal, I've rented most of my adult life. I have never left an apartment in the condition you describe.

The only thing that isn't normal wear and tear is the lightbulbs, and maybe the chalk, if it cleans off easily. The slow drains are something that happens, but tenants need to either fix it themselves, or contact the landlord.

Holes in the walls that need to be patched mean that the room will need to be repainted--so it is not just the cost of patching the hole that you need to consider.

Torn out smoke detectors need to be replaced. That's the cost of the smole detector, plus the time and energy to put the new one up. They also broke the lease.

Wall-mounted TVs? Every lease I've ever had stated that anything attached to the walls becomes the landlord's property. So in addition to damaging the walls, they may have also broken the lease.

Frankly, I'm wondering if the security deposit will cover the cost of repairing all the damage.

Even if you don't want to go down the road of withholding the entire security deposit, I think I'd at least withhold the amount for repairing the hole in the wall caused by kicking in the door, and replacing the smoke detectors. And probably replacing the stained carpet, if you can get it patched with new, matching carpet.