It sounds like the heat in your attic is still causing the problem. Anytime your inside temp is higher than freezing and outside is lower than freezing, you get ice buildup. I assume when you say "handlers" you mean air handlers. You may need to get the heat producing equipment out of the attic and into a downstairs utility room - that's something best handled by heating and cooling experts. With a well cooled attic, the snow should not melt at all.

lesliew:
Sorry to hear this. Here's my 0.02
It is a common detail for roofers to install the drip edge first and then run the ice shield starting at the edge of the roof (i.e. on top of the drip edge). This does allow water trapped and accumulating in the gutter to potentially finds its way under the drip edge and in. This detail may even be one recommended by the ice shield mfg.

However, in "high snow" zones there is another detail (I know W.R. Grace has it anyway) where a piece of membane in installed at the edge of the roof and is bent over onto the fascia board behind the gutter (of course the gutter needs to be removed and reinstalled or replaced to do this). The drip edge is then nailed on the edge with the membrane protruding out the up-roof edge of the drip edge. A second piece of membrane is then started at the edge of the roof over the drip edge and adhered to the previous piece. This prevents water backed up is the gutter from going between the top edge of the fascia board and the roof sheathing under the drip edge and also from coming down the roof and under the drip edge.

My roofers started doing it the first way and I had to explain to them and show them the Grace detail. They did it the way I wanted, which is not thier standard procedure.

The other entry mechanism that I can think of is if your roofer did not go high enough up you roof eith the ice and water shield and you getting leakage obove the membrane.

Lastly, this barrier does nothing to prevent the ice dam from forming in the first place. It sounds like your attic is stiil too warm and needs more ventilation and/or insulation.

I would call the roofer immediately, while it it leaking and see what he thinks the problem is.

Sorry for your headache and I wish you the best in solving the problem.

Well, you all told me what I expected to hear, so now I'm triply unhappy. I had a feeling the water was coming in under the drip edge, but when I got all my estimates, half of the roofers wanted to put the drip edge on over the membrane, and the other half under it, but no one wanted to do both. They did not use Grace, but another brand, which I had looked into and agreed to. They did not remove the gutters to do the job ( they were brand new, having been installed less than a year before the roofing job), but they did wind up replacing about 75 feet of it which got damaged during the job. So, the whole purpose of thousands and thousands of dollars to replace the roofing and prevent the backup was for nothing. I knew we would never eliminate the dams, because there is no way the temperature of the roof is going to be low enough to prevent them, but I had hoped that at least the water would not penetrate. We already have the roof rake, but I could have foregone the whole job and just used it, since that is what I will have to do now. I would love to hang the roofer by his thumbs, since he told me we would NEVER have water backing up again. I guess you learn by your mistakes. No matter how much research you do, and how much knowledge you think you have gleaned, before undertaking something major, it is never enough, unfortunately.

There is no way I can relocate the handlers to the basement. They have to stay where they are.

lesliew:
If you just had your roof stripped down and re-roofed and its leaking, then your roofer should fix it.
I wouldn't tolerate this unless you gave him specific instructions on how to do the job. If you left it to his judgement and it leaks, then I'd say it's his problem because you didn't get what you paid for i.e. a roof that doesn't leak.

The snow rake is not a solution, it helps but face it...it's a PITA. You need to be home whenever it snows and get the snow off before the ice forms. I hated it which is why I also spent a bunch of money to redo mine. (So far so good, fingers crossed, knocking on wood)

Anyway, I hope you call him back. Infact he should be there now removing all the snow for you to minimize any damage and also see where the leak is and plan on a repair. No matter what you think it might be, call him and just say that your new roof is leaking and you're pretty darn disappointed and angry and you want him to do something about it.

FYI
The attached kink has the WRGrace details I spoke of
det 101 and 102 are with the drip edge stripped in and not stripped in. Detail 103 is a retrofit for your situation if that turns out to be the culprit. Please note that all of the details show the drip edge into the gutter with the membrane behind the gutter.

Best of luck and please post how you make out.

Here is a link that might be useful: WRGrace details

If you have an air hand;erin unconditioned space consider enclosing it in a 'room'; with a couple inches of foam isualtin and removing the insulation from the ceiling below the 'room'. This makes the area with the handler conditioned and allows you to add even more insulatin if your zone needs it.
A warm attic wil cause ice dams and result in leaking. It is a loosing battle to extend ice shieled higher and higher to try and solve a warm attic problem.

Exactly what brickeye wrote.

Insulate the rafter bays and bring the attic onto the thermal envelope of the house.

What type of venting do you have in your attic? Gable wall vents? Soffit and ridge?

You need to keep warm air from touching the underside of your roof sheathing. That is how ice dams are caused. Warm air melts the snow, the water runs down the roof, gets over the eave, refreezes...the cycle continues and the water eventually backs up under the shingles.

The ice/water membrane should extend up the roof 3' inside the exterior wall.

Best bet? Add insulation to the rafters. If you use foam (such as polyisocyanurate at approx R-7 per inch) you'll do two things:
1) Keep the heat in the attic and off the underside of the roof in the wintertime...which will stop the ice dams.

2) In the summer, the polyiso will be a radiant barrier preventing radiant gain from the summer sun from overheating your attic space.

A cooler attic will result in less summer heat being transferred into the living space of the house, and with the air handlers up in the attic, the cooler attic will extend the life of your HVAC equipment and likely lower your summer AC usage.

Polyiso comes in 4' by 8' sheets and is available at most home center.

We are in the process of contracting with a company who will be adding more insulation to the rafters in one wing where we have had a backup. As for the shield (they did not use Grace), it is six feet up, and about three to four feet past the wall of the house. No, I did not tell them how to do the roof, but the reason it was done in the first place was because of the water backing up. There was a fairly new roof on this house, perhaps a few years old, but it had been put on top of an older, probably rotting roof, and therefore there was no shield, and no drip edge.

The roofer swore up and down that we would never have a problem again, and with this first real snow, we had the problem. We did rake the front roof, so we don't know if we would have had leakage there as well, like we did before the roof replacement.

The roofer is ignoring my calls, and I am now drafting a letter to him. After all, there is supposed to be a warranty on his work, and he is responsible. If we don't get anywhere, we will have to take action. If we wanted to live with a snow rake in our hands, we wouldn't have done the roof to begin with.

I do not hold out much hope for eliminating the ice dams altogether. It will never be cold enough up there for that. All that separates the unfinished part of the attic from the bedrooms and bath which were added up there at one time, is a wood door. The warm air from the second floor along is enough to hear it. Aside from adding ridge vents, adding more insulation, and doing the roofing, we have no other solutions. I doubt the new insulation will help all that much, and the front of the house, which may also have leakage, has no attic above it, only crawl space, so there's nothing I can do in that area, either.

"All that separates the unfinished part of the attic from the bedrooms and bath which were added up there at one time, is a wood door."

Install an exterior door with full weatherstripping.
If you have room a pair of doors is even better and adding insulation and stopping infiltration/exfiltration.

Of course, if the roofer claimed to be able to stop the condition you should hold his feet to the fire.

Having said that, let me tell of my experience. My very old timber framed house cannot be ventilated in the eaves. So regardless of insulation efforts and a new roof with ice guard, it still suffered damming until the roof planks failed under the weight.

Having had my fill of problems I had a roofing contractor with experience with the product install a "cold roof", as it is called by log house folks. In this case a manufactured 4'x8' panel called CoolVent was used. While it was about two or three times the cost of a good standard roof by the time the job was done, it is entirely successful in totally eliminating ice damming. Two winters later, I heartily endorse the technique.

Regards,

Don

"A warm attic wil cause ice dams and result in leaking. It is a loosing battle to extend ice shieled higher and higher to try and solve a warm attic problem."

Agreed that elminating the ice dam formation is the primary objective, however a properly sealed roof will not leak. No matter how you slice it water does not travel uphill. Roof geometries sometimes make sealing the edges difficult, but a well-thoughtout detail should prevent any bypass.

Ever see a building with a rooftop planter? There's water that's held on the roof and they shouldn't/don't leak either.

My 0.02

I got the new roof, tried the roof rake, it all didn't matter. After a couple of weeks of persistant snow and temperatures under freezing, it pretty much happens to me the same way you describe it. I bought some heating cables for 3 areas on my roof; primarily where the ridges come together. So far, so good this year.

"No matter how you slice it water does not travel uphill."

Actually it can. Look up capillary action.
A roof can be designed to hold water, and many flat roofs are.
They are not composed of shingles however. All seams are sealed, or even better is EPDM without any seams at all (or only factory seams).

Running ice shield higher and higher on a roof with ice dam problems will not solve the problem until the entire roof is covered. Just like a flat roof. A rather expensive proposition.
You need to stop the air flow from the conditioned space into the attic (infiltration/exfiltration), improve the attic ventilation to the outside, and add more insulation to the ceiling.

I took your suggestion:

Capillary action or capillarity (also known as capillary motion) is the ability of a narrow tube to draw a liquid upwards against the force of gravity.

no hills mentioned.

Brick, I respect your opinions but recognize that sometimes it is not possible to eliminate ice dams from forming at all. The secondary barrier against water intrusion is the roofing underlayments.

FWIW: when I roofed my ranch style house in addition to adding insulation and ventilation I did exactly what you said and covered the whole roof with underlayment (to ~ 2 ft from the ridge where there is a ridge vent cut.)

I haven't used a roof rake since.

There are locations where drifting snow can accumulate in valleys, the ice/water shiled should run way up (6 to 10 ft)the valley and extend ~2 1/2 to 3 ft on either side (full sheet width with a 6 in lap at the valley.)

I suspect that LeslieW problem is because the gutter flow is backing up under the drip edge. That is why W.R. Grace developed the details that I linked to.

Preventing ice dam damage is a two-fold approach. Insulation/ventilation to cool the attic space as much as possible and a waterproofing barrier to resist infiltration in the event that ice forms.

Alternately, you could always build a "fly" roof over the building roof to provide the ultimate in ventilation.

regards,

sdello

Okay, let's see if I can address most of the foregoing. First, I did manage to get the roofer who was actually on the job over here last week. Long story, but this guy, whom I originally hired, is now working for the creep who is ignoring me, and it is this creep who is the roofer of record. The guy told me that 1) water is getting under the drip edge as it fills up the gutter during a melt. 2) The drip edge in that one area which failed with this last snow is different - longer, and he admits they ran out of drip edge and he found some other kind in his truck. 3) There is a small opening at the end of one of the runs which has no drip edge, and no shield (Good morning, Mr. roofer, how did that happen?) 4) One of the fascia boards is totally rotted behind one gutter, which has absolultely nothing to do with the rest of this, but it, also, should have been noted and replaced.

Oh, and I forgot the next to best part. A good number of the shingles ( this is Tamko "rustic redwood") appeared gray when they installed it. I was told it was "dirt". NOT. This was a color problem and this roll should never have been installed. Guy from Tamko will be here next week, but meanwhile I need a roofer to replace them, and his guy says he won't get paid for it by my "drive by roofer", the roofer of record, and THAT guy has totally disappeared.

Spoke to GAF (We have weather shield, and not the Grace product), but they also recommend wrapping and then applying drip edge. Of course this roofer says he NEVER does that, but after speaking to a few other people around here whose jobs he did and who still have ice dams, that is obvious.

So...I have a problem. As for the shingles, we will obviously get them replaced, one way or the other. GAF says there is no solution for us now that the job has been done, as far as sealing the roof at the gutter. My "sub" roofer says he can push the drip edge against the fascia board and push the gutter up against it, or install aluminum on the fascia and up under the roofing. That will show, and this house is all roof (ranch which is expanded in the back).

As for the warm attic, it is now in the low 20s, and my attic is reading 50. I have two handlers up there which work on a hydronic system, so there are coils up there, and I have two humidifiers. If I could even bring the temp up there down to where it needs to be to prevent dams, I would have a freeze factor with my heating and humidification.

As for vents, I have three very large gable vents, and ridge vents ( with this new roofing job), along every ridge.

I will probably have to go after this roofer, since the only reason for the new roof was to use the shield to prevent dams. We had a three or four year old roof on the house to begin with, but no shield, so we had it all ripped off and replaced. This guy guaranteed we would no longer have water seeping in, but since he didn't do the job the recommended way, we're back to square one.

The Better Business Bureau and Consumer Affairs are my first two avenues, but the problem is that none of this is spelled out in the contract. Nowhere does it mention where the shield would be applied. That was all verbal. if he had not put the drip edge on, and just used shield to the end, we would probably have been okay.

We have lived in this house for almost two years, and it operates on Murphy's Law. Even the humidification isn't where it should be, but the up side is that we are finally getting my neighbor's oil tank off oour property ( whole other thread) at his expense. Now we have to hope it wasn't leaking!

If you go to this url and click on the first picture, which only has a number, you will se what I mean about the house being all roof. http://homepage.mac.com/leslieweinberg/

If your roofers are required to be licensed in your state, you can also file a grievance with the state licensing board.If roofers are required to be licensed,and yours isn't, that's a whole nother issue.

I don't understand how your attic is getting so hot. You have a 30 degree differential. We have our air handler up there as well and the temperature in the attic is the same as outside. We have no gable vents, but have a lot of soffit vents and ridge vents.

Do you have any soffit vents? You should have soffit vent everywhere you don't have a gable. Is the space between the house and the attic well insulated? What is the door between the spaces like?

"As for the warm attic, it is now in the low 20s, and my attic is reading 50. I have two handlers up there which work on a hydronic system, so there are coils up there, and I have two humidifiers. If I could even bring the temp up there down to where it needs to be to prevent dams, I would have a freeze factor with my heating and humidification."

What you do for air handlers in unconditioned space is make the space conditioned.
Frame an enclosure around teh air handlers and insulate witha couple inches of foam board. Add more fiberglass (or layers of foam board) to achieve whatever rating is needed.
Remove all insulationfrom the 'floor' (ceilingof floor below) in the enclosure for the air handlers.
I have done this in a number of residential and commercial jobs. The savings can be pretty substantial since the HVAC equipment is not in unconditioned space anymore wasting a lot of BTUs summer and winter.

Ice dams can be stopped on any building with a sloped roof.
Some are easier than others, but they can be stopped.
The fact that lower pitchroofs are built in snow areas has always been a stunning bit of poor design.
There is a reason the cape with a high pitch was developed in snow areas, and the lower pitches in non-snow areas.

Brick:
good advice.

"The fact that lower pitchroofs are built in snow areas has always been a stunning bit of poor design.
There is a reason the cape with a high pitch was developed in snow areas, and the lower pitches in non-snow areas."

Very true. Then you see full shed dormers on those capes that are practically flat. Go figure.

If/when I put a second floor on my ranch you can rest assured that the roof pitch will change, too.

Leslie,

That is terrible news. We had similar problems at our house and I figured how to combat it. A roof rake is truly indispensable. Second heating coils along the roof in question and in the gutters right down the spouts, and finally some attic vents. I know it's the same old advice, but we've found it cured the problem. I hope it works out for you.

"Then you see full shed dormers on those capes that are practically flat. "

I turn the work down.
I live on referrals and even a single bad job could cause problems.
I have installed many Unico systems in older houses, about 1/3 with hot water coils. Adding and maintaining antifreeze levels in a residential system is a non-starter.
In goes the little room around the air handlers.
It works very well. The rooms stay about 10 degrees or so from the living space and all the water lines are happy. Even the condensate drain trap.

Brickeye,

I have a question about the little room. Out attic is about 34x50 with high ceilings and then a little area (over the bedroom that is over the garage), that has a stepped up floor and ceiling. The air handler is in the part of the attic above the house, near the garage area. The pipes have antifreeze in them, the pipes are wrapped and the attic is fully vented (ridge and soffit, vent, through the roof fan on a thermostat for summer). The heat is hydro air, so there is another airhandler and a boiler in the basement. We do not have an ice dam caused by heat. However, on the opposite side of the house from where the air handler is we do have an area that builds huge icicles. The way the roofs come together, and the afternoon sun, cause the snow to melt.

If we build a room around the air handler, how big should the room be (how much clearance around the air handler (the air handler hangs from the rafters)? I assume it needs a 36" door to get the air handler out if need be? How should it be insulated? Drywall? Although this would be good for the winter, won't it cause a problem in the summer when it is 100 degrees in the attic? Thanks.

"We do not have an ice dam caused by heat."

Any heat dumped into the attic increases the roof temp and helps melt the snow. The heated air in the space will circulate very nicely on thermal gradients.
Use rigid foam insulation. Since the space is an attic you do not need a finished surface like drywall.
I just use 24 inch OC 2x3s and fasten the foam sheets with long screws. I then go back and tape the seams with aluminum duct tape.
A simple opening taped shut allows access for service.
I try to leave about 3 feet all around the unit.
If the unit needs to be removed the screws come out and a foam panel is removed/cut.

Brickeye,

Does the air handler need air? It seems like putting a room around it could be an issue? What happens in the summer when the air handler is in its hot little room and can't benefit from the venting in the attic?

The air handler does not need any air to operate. The only portion that produces any 'unintended' heat is the blower motor.
It will be fine in the summer since the oom wil be very close to the conditioned space temperature (an d unless you have AC it will not be running anyway). If you have AC the remaining losses will keep the motor from getting anywere near the attic temp.
Insulation slows heat from moving. Direction does not matter.

Thanks. We do have AC.

brick:
FWIW, it may depend on the HVAC unit. My aunt is in an older two family where the second/third floor apartment was completely gutted and renovated. Central air was added and the condensors are on pads on the ground. However there is a gas fired heating unit installed in the small attic space above the third floor feeding the ductwork to the third and second floors. she had a problem with the unit cutting out and the gas man yellow tagged it as needing additional ventilation to get complete combustion. It was not getting enough recirculating air. I would suspect that closing up this type of unit without providing a means to flow air into it might be detrimental to its operation.

regards,
sdello

That is not an air handler, it is a heater.
There are minimum ventilation requiremtns if you have a heater that burns anything (besides electricity).
You can stil enclose the units, but either adequate openings must be provided or a ventilation system must be installed and interlocked to prevent operation if the dampers fail to open.

Okay, here's where we now stand. The roofer who oversaw the roofing job (not the roofer of record), seems to feel he is responsible, since I first contracted with him. He feels that the reason the water got under the drip edge where it did is that the gutter had been raised in order to pitch it the "correct" way, and it was not low enough, that the drip edge was going into the gutter instead of sitting above it. He wants to either cover the fascia board with aluminum and run it up under the roof with a bead of caulk, or, place the "flap" of the drip edge against the fascia board and put the gutter up against it so there is no opening for the water to get into.

I had the rep from Tamko at the house. He feels that the color problem resulted in the run between colors not being discarded, told me it RARELY happens , and is suggesting that the roofer swap about five sections with other sections from an upper roof, and hand seal them. He insists the integrity of the roof will not be compromised, and that it will look perfect. He also says that Tamko has no liability for color, that their warranty does not cover it, and he spoke to both roofers, partly in my presence, and partly while he "hid" in the driveway. I have to assume Tamko is going to pay for this work, but I was not told anything other than that someone else from Tamko would come to the house to look it over, and make arrangements. He then said that I would be asked to sign a release after the work is done. Interesting, in light of the fact that he is saying Tamko has no responsibility, that they simply want a "happy customer".

I am not sure I am happy about them pulling out sections of roofing and replacing it, so I would like some opinions here.

I had another roofer come in to give me some ideas on the ice damming and backup situation. He also mentioned aluminum on the fascia, he did not get up on a ladder so he can't comment on the drip edge, but he also mentioned another product which is "sticky", like the shield, which he feels he could put on the edge of the roof behind the gutter. Will this work with everything that is already in place?

I feel like I have just spent over $13,000 for a nightmare, and I don't want it compounded, but the only reason we even did the roof was because of the backup of the water after a snow, and this problem has not been remedied.