counterspace ! Lots of it and of the type of surface that it doesn't need to be protected. I have a lot of soapstone where I need it most. I don't do anything to it. Looks better than it did 5 yrs ago on install.

This is a good topic. c

Storage and propane/gas. We are buying a house and the location of the electric cooktop may make it impossible to do propane. I thought it would be a deal breaker but clearly, not.
Storage and propane/gas. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Things I had before and absolutely wanted in my new kitchen as well:
->Gas range
->good carbon filter system for cold water tap (for all cooking and drinking)

Things I did not have in old kitchen and absolutely wanted in new kitchen from the start:
->Outside vented hood
->a broom/mop/dustpan closet! (I am a bit OCD about dirty floors and I had to go to the laundry room to fetch the broom every night after dinner before)

Things I put in my new kitchen but didn't know I would love as much as I do and will definitely be a must for every kitchen I ever do in the future:
->speed oven (Advantium 240v wall oven with convection). I love this thing!

breadboards/cutting boards that pull out for extra space and stool sitting

soft floor

good lighting and some natural light

two work triangles

kitchen enables the user, instead of user adapts to kitchen

attractive appearance

place for newspaper reading with a cup of coffee, informal eating

lowers allow drawers or pullouts for easy access and viewing; no crawling on floor to see into lowers

two sinks, one for dishwashing and one deep enough to hold a pumpkin.

allows graceful interaction with lobby and with dining room (the two adjacent spaces)

Counter space here, too. I just have Formica, but I have more total counter space and more usable counter space, and I use it all the time. My daughter claimed four feet of counter space for a science fair project for almost three months, and I still had room to cook! (I did have to find a new spot to dump my purse when I walked in the door, though.)

Other improvements I love: brighter lighting and a more open feeling without "tight spots" impeding traffic flow. (Aisles are now between 42 and 48 inches, up from 32 to 42 inches.)

Finally, choose colors you really love looking at. I didn't realize how sick I was of my old colors until I had my new colors.

As you might have guessed from the Formica reference, high-end appliances were never "on the table," but I think the advice still applies.

The basics, just as you mentioned, are the most important 'things' to have. I don't have any appliances beyond sinks, ovens, DW, fridge. When you cook now, is there an appliance or some aspect of cooking that drives you nuts because it is inadequate? That's what you need. An efficient layout, adequate light and counter work space were top on my must have list. Everything else was gravy. Don't get me wrong, I love the little extras. But, I wouldn't hate myself or my kitchen without them.

Things in my kitchen that I love and would replace if they break:

Hood vented to outside with strong fan and good light

Deep drawers and pullout trays in bottom cabinets

Slideout trash

Built-in soap dispenser (have to replace - love it plus there is a hole in the counter for it)

Things I love but might not pay to replace if they break:

Soft close drawers and cabinets

Stone counters ( I love the look of our quartz but liked laminate just fine, and like the Corian in the bathroom just fine. Plus I sorta miss sitting/standing on the counter - something you're not supposed to do with stone)

Things I don't have and don't mind/miss/want:

Matching appliances

Two sink areas

Gas range.
Powerful range hood.
Great lighting with dimmers and multiple circuits.
In-ceiling speakers.
Functional layout.
I thought I could stop at the range and hood, but there are so many things that really make a kitchen...

Counterspace. Lots of nice, empty, smooth counterspace.

Lower cabinet drawers instead of those god-awful cabinets where the trolls live. You know, where you put stuff you never use? I include the stupid cupboard everyone puts under the farm sinks. I had a drawer made for under there so I don't have to crawl around on my hands and knees.

Quad, 20 amp outlets. Single outlets make a kitchen electrically useless these days. In the bathroom, too. I currently have a saws-all, Multimaster, orbital sander & battery charger in one place in my kitchen. Imagine when I need my espresso, coffee grinder (if I used one), toaster, etc?

A utility closet big enough for cat litter boxes, vaccuum cleaners, brooms, & all kinds of cleaners.

You can't stand or sit on stone countertops? Why!!! We walk on slate sidewalks and sit on stone cap stones in the yard. WHY NOT!?!

Christine

Drawers for lowers!
Storage
Separate fridge/freezer (if space allows)
If no water in fridge door, then dedicated filter faucet at sink
Soft floor
Zones (i.e. cook area, sink area, pantry area, etc...)

Contiguous counter space
Good lighting on dimmers
Large, single tub sink (big enough for cookie sheets/roasters)
drawers, rather than cabinets below

Christine: You can't stand or sit on stone countertops? Why!!! We walk on slate sidewalks and sit on stone cap stones in the yard. WHY NOT!?!

That's what I said!!! My fabricator said no sitting or standing - apparently it puts pressure on seams and can deepen or crack natural fissures in granite. But I have had a stone (quartz) countertop for exactly one month, and he is just one guy, so maybe this is wrong??! I would be GLAD to hear otherwise!

After 15 years of crapy Army housing and dinky useless kitchens? Finally enough SPACE!!

Sallysue, in addition to the crack to the granite, I'm wondering if it would put more pressure to the cabinets as well. After all, granite is quite heavy and may cause cabinets to convex/concave. Wonder how true that is.

As for my must in the kitchen... Besides the usual appliances (cooktop, DW, fridge, double ovens), I needed more floor cabinets and countertops too. I also needed the shelves to be pulled out for accessibility. I now can actually use the cabinets at ease.

I added 2 cabinet units over the breakfast area. One unit was wrapped around the corner which made a longer L-shape countertop. It sure made cooking so much easier when there are more space! LOL... I don't think the original kitchen was made to cook, maybe only for reheating food.

No uppers ever again

drawers, drawers, drawers and lazy susans in the corners

uber energy efficient

choices mine all mine!

after that, i'm willing to be perfectly reasonable.

Got to have:

Good hood vented to outside.

Careful (functional)arrangement to provide protected work corridor between range and prep counter/sink.

Room for easy alternate pathway to keep others out of the work zone.

Incorporating some inherited family materials (counter surfaces).

Enough counter space for my more farmer-ish dairy, preservation and grain jobs in the kitch.

Step-in pantry; it always cracks me up to use that phrase since I'm old enough to remember that used to be a name for panties, not pantries!

L

The musts for my new kitchen are:

Functional layout
Separation of church and state (prep zone and cleanup zone)
Two ovens
Good lighting
Better storage (which I found out means drawers!)

excellent lighting
looooooooong stretch of prep space
island with seating (would work it to seat 6 if I were doing it over again, tho)

Frankly speaking first and foremost it must have lighting, Regular tools and common utensils, gas cylinder, stove, fridge. These material makes a kitchen and above that you can add more features to your kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Refrigeration Maintenance

I agree with all of those that say drawers, drawers, drawers! Cabinets on bottom should be illegal!!! Also, plenty of counter space, lots of light, a big sink, a big pantry, easily cleaned floors, and soft close everything. I find I love my appliance garages more than anything! Make sure you designate a spot for your trash can!! And how about a spot to show off your "treasures?"

-Well-organized storage
-Gas range
-Lots of windows
-Colors/surfaces/finishes that I like
-Good lighting
-Layout that works well for our needs

Other things I like a lot:
-Pull-out trash
-Soap dispenser
Well, there's a lot more, but I'll stop

A drawer for bread products. Not a fancy breadbox drawer, just a nice, deep drawer that wasn't necessarily planned for bread but worked out perfectly.

Countertops at the right height so they're comfortable to stand at.
Flooring that's comfortable to stand on.
Giant sink.
Window over giant sink to see the critters in the backyard.
Functioning hood.
Double ovens.
Pull-out trash.
Lots of storage (think drawers) with room for all my specialty bakeware.

"I realize that we all need a sink, fridge, oven, cooktop, dishwasher but ..."
What was really important to us was to deselect options (keep it simple) and go all out for the things we wanted.

Compared to our previous kitchen, in our new kitchen we quintupled our useable counter space, quintupled our effective storage space, doubled everything else we wanted to double, and kept the same for other things; e.g. two 2-quart trash containers one at each counter. Since it's a condo in a building built with a garbage chute, we chose to use that chute more often and not to store our garbage in our kitchen as long as we used to (a good new habit).

Often we have two of everything, e.g. cutlery drawers. We have two large countertop areas, one more for prep, one more for cleanup. Our lighting is always double of everything so we can get either hot temperature light (incandescent, halogen, xenon) or cold (fluorescent warm + fluorescent cold + LED's yellowish + cold white). Half of the lighting is integrated into cabinetry and half is exposed. I'm thinking of getting two or three wall faucets.

Frosted glass in the wall cabinets make it light and airy. Tube fluorescents shine light from inside the shelves in those cabinets. The exhaust hood is slimline, and glass. Another wall is clear of upper cabinets. Translucent glass tiles are the backsplash; they pick up any light they can and reflect it back as light tones of gray-green-brown hues.

In base cabinets, we have drawers (I've lost track how many) and no doors at all. We have drawers inside drawers (more than ten). The fridge is drawers too: this gave a lot more countertop.

Another fridge is in the hall outside the kitchen. It's full height. We have so much refrigeration volume now that it has allowed us to buy anything any time any quantity. (Food retailers take note!).

Our heat generating appliances are a powerful small wall oven, an induction cooktop and Instant Hot water. (yes, i'm aware it's far from the norm. no toaster, no microwave, no toaster oven.)

All this in less than 70 sq ft. Counter area including the induction cooktop make up about half of that. The aisle is more than 42 inches.

Trash hole in the snack station countertop. This one thing has improved the likelihood of my kids throwing their garbage away by a gazillion percent!

Thanks for all the posts! I am interested in whether people think a prep sink or a pot filler is a must have. Thanks!

I'm going to skip the obvious like walls, lights & flooring.

That being said, the things I have now that I would not want to live without include:

• Pantry pass-thru. Our garage is about 4 steps lower than the kitchen floor, which is perfect. I can unload my groceries directly into the pantry, and I don't even have to bend.

• Large, single bowl sink. Why did I ever live with the wasted space of a dual bowl? Ugh! And on the topic of sink, I have a Silgranite and after seeing how easy it is to live with, I'm not sure I'll ever want anything different. Maybe copper. ;)

• Extra deep, full extension drawers right below my cooktop. One drawer for pans, one for pots.

• Baking sheet organizer. I just have the white coated cheapos from Walmart, but they are amazing. I wanted to live with them before I decided on something a bit more permanent. I'm now sold, and am going to order the kind you actually install.

• Pantry! First one I've had, and love it love it love it.

• Pull down faucet. I will NEVER go back to a true side sprayer.

• Good quality stainless steel cookware. No more sticking, no more teflon bits in my eggs.

• Built-in trash can. I have a double unit. Actually now, I wish I had gone quadruple so that I could have built-in recycling cans, too.

• Lower drawers. I wasn't sure about them. Now I wouldn't change it. This includes a bread drawer, a utensil drawer (no more taking up counter space), two drawers for things like ziplocs & pastic wrap, etc.

Our old kitchen was really awful but the only thing I really dreamed about while using it for 15 years was having a second sink. All of the other stuff we put into the new kitchen is wonderful and I'm glad to have it but the big difference maker was a second sink. We didn't put in a pot filler--it's not a must have in our kitchen.

The second sink allows others to easily help without getting in the way. In our kitchen, the second sink is important for both prep and clean up (one person at the large sink washing items by hand and another on dw duty at the small sink.) This sink is also where others can easily wash their hands or get a glass of water without invading the prep/cooking area.

The smaller sink is next to the baking area. It makes adding water to batter or dough very easy. Clean up is simple (with the sink and dw right there.)

The other things I really enjoy in our kitchen are the great lighting, 48" range, layout, and ample counter space. I purposefully chose to have a variety of cabinetry in our kitchen to make it a place that can grow and change over the decades. I love drawers but I also love storage that is adjustable such as shelves and roll outs.

Low maintenance and high durability. We don't treat things gently here.

Re: prep sinks

We added a prep sink late in the game (after posting plans here, it was buehl's drawing of our zones that convinced us to add one in) -- I really debated because of the additional expense (and the fact I'd have to ask my grumpy contractor for yet another change order). All told it was about $1500 extra to add it in, between the plumbing, plus buying the sink, faucet and disposal. Very glad we did it. In our case it makes the prep space ultra useful, and if we hadn't put it there we'd likely be trying to prep in the cleanup zone for convenience which is what we did before and it was never convenient to have to compete for space with dirty pots and pans, etc. In our area they are not common at all, I figured that out when the granite installers came in and once laughed and said to the other, "look they have two sinks!" Yet still glad we did it, even though it apparently won't be a selling point if/when we ever sell this house....

Drawers, Drawers, Drawers, The one lower cabinet that I did put in against my KD's advice (I figured I should have one just in case but I only wasted 18" on it) sits empty except for a phone book.
Counters, Counters, Counters, I went from 2' x 4' of counters that was used for everything, I now have 6' for prep, 6 1/2' for baking, and 6' for cleanup with no crossing and that doesn't include the peninsula. Did I go overboard -maybe - But I love every single inch of that counterspace.
The first time my 23 year old son came into the new kitchen his first comment was "let me guess - your first goal was more counter space." Can never have enough of the stuff.

2 big sinks

integrated drain board/runnels

RO filter + water softener

wood floors

lots of cabinets

lots of lights

counter space

an oven that can handle a turkey

gas stove

good lighting

(Must nots: pendant lights, pot fillers, glass tiles, granite, tumbled stone, goose neck faucets)

Tapmaster hands free water system

*Marble counters, my preference but just select your favorite counter and as much counter as possible - Soapstone looks great, difficult choice for us, choose Marble for the lighter reflection, we had Marble before & loved it, do not ever want granite again, just not me!
*Large, single Farmhouse sink - had this in last kitchen and really liked it - no water spots, easy to clean
*Reverse Osmosis Water faucet on sink but install the tanks in the lower level or a closet, if possible, 'cause they do take a bit of space - but will never be without the R/O Water, we use this for all the cooking & drinking water
*Prefer Lots of Drawers and Pull-out Cabinet shelves and cabinet for trash & recycling
*Like the little drawers for separating utensils & storing folded towels, lots of uses, because we do not like the big old junk drawers! Too tempting to toss everything in there and it is always a jumbled mess, right!
*Pantry cabinets for easier access, the built-ins are around the Frig. and also have a free-standing tall cabinet, love this for all of our dinner plates, bowls, glass prep & storage, baking containers - used to keep in the drawers but easier to reach these heavier items when they are on the pantry shelf - I am short and the hanging cabinets are too high
*Kitchen Open to other rooms, we removed a wall and added a counter height Peninsula with seating for two or three, great to have more seating if possible or else a table & chairs/bench
*Hardwood floor, much more comfy to stand on than our old tile - like the warm, wood look
*Lots of lights and windows with views or plant a tree this Spring, we are looking for an evergreen Magnolia - does anyone have a favorite tree outside of their window?
*Select Your favorite cabinets, we prefer all wood, no out-gasing materials - with full extension Drawers
*Your Favorite Faucet, we will have Blanco, Grace - wanted something with a vintage look for this old house!
*Freezer Drawer on the bottom - makes for easy access to the most used Frig. items - Happy researching and planning!

Love my uninterrupted counterspace and induction.

And more importantly...
amielynn:
"After 15 years of crapy Army housing and dinky useless kitchens? Finally enough SPACE!!"...
Thanks to you and your family for the years of sacrifice for our country.

> 2 sinks (prep sink in island)
> island
> all drawers
> tapmaster
> 2 DW
> lots of counters
> 48" gas range with 2 ovens

We have a pot filler - not a must have but we like it. We have a 2nd frig - another nicity but not a must have.

1. counter space!!!
2. zones and traffic flow that makes sense
3. plenty of storage, also in locations that make sense

Those are my MUSTS. Everything else is gravy.

The entire reason we redid our kitchen was because the old one had a severe lack of counter space. I had one usable prep are than spanned about four feet around a corner between the sink and cooktop. There was one foot on the other side of the cooktop and about three feet on the far side of the sink that was hard to use because the MW and trash can were in the way.

Another big problem was a lack of "protected" work space. We entertain a lot and people tend to congregate in the kitchen. In the old kitchen, they all congregated right in front of my stove, and it drove me nuts.

The third huge annoyance was lack of storage space. I had kitchen things stored in the garage, in the laundry room, even in the attic. Entertaining required pulling things from all over the house!

I now have huge expanses of counter space that allow me to spread out for prep. I no longer have to put everything away as I use it to make room for the next thing. The prep sink in the island improves its functionality quite a bit. It truly makes cooking so much more enjoyable.

When we entertain, I have a much better flow, and my main work area is easier to protect from traffic. I also have the big island that I can use to spread out goodies during parties.

There is a place for everything now, which makes keeping everything in its place possible. Things are stored in places that make sense, too. My cooking utensils are in a drawer next to the stove (what a novel concept!), my prep utensils are in a drawer next to the prep sink, my dishes are near the dishwasher. I have room to store all my pots and pans and serving dishes in the kitchen. I also have about three times as much pantry space.

I love my huge single-bowl sink, my drawer-style dishwasher, my five-burner range, my counter seating, etc. But, ultimately, I could survive without those luxuries as long as I had the counterspace, traffic patterns, and storage space I needed.

SO much of a kitchen is dictated by how you live and your eating/cooking style; for example I don't need a snack station because I never buy prepared snacks, and I don't need a garbage disposer because I compost all food scraps.

I do have 2 large freezers not in the kitchen, and when I replace my current fridge I'd like an all fridge without icemaker or water. We have excellent water so I don't need a filter, it is great from the faucet.

I would choose, given my lifestyle
1) a large single bowl sink with integrated drainboard
2) good quality external vent
3) a better cooktop with more cooking surface for large pots (after 15 days without electricity after a devastating ice storm, I will ALWAYS have a gas cooktop, even though induction looks great)
4) 2 ovens, one a smaller one, one a convection oven
5) drawers on lower cabinets

And in thinking about all this again, and how/where I live, I am going to go ahead with outdoor my masonry oven.

My kitchen sink must have a view outside. When we purchased this house, I nixxed several other choices just for this very reason.

I love my big deep kitchen sink and gooseneck faucet. If/when I move, the next house will have the same.

I love my granite countertops, but I could live without them.

I want a kitchen layout that means there's never more or less than three or four steps between sink / stove / refrigerator. I don't need a big kitchen, just one that's well laid out with counter space where it's needed.

Instant hot water!

All drawers in the bottom cabinets. Some of the drawers with built-in removable dividers so I can "file" cookie sheets, etc. I absolutely LOVE how organized and easy it is to get stuff in my drawers now as opposed to all the bending and moving of stuff with my old lower cab doors.

One big bowl, deep kitchen sink. Never going back to double bowls. And the wire rack for the bottom of the sink. Husband didn't want it but now it's one of his favorite things. Me, too!

Undercabinet lighting. At first I didn't want the added expense but I am SO glad I got it. Good overall lighting in the kitchen.

Sorry to get off topic, but I wanted to reply to this question...

You can't stand or sit on stone countertops? Why!!! We walk on slate sidewalks and sit on stone cap stones in the yard. WHY NOT!?!

The evenly distributed support provided by the ground makes it perfectly safe to walk on slate sidewalks or stone flooring. In contrast, the only supports most stone countertops have are the edges of the cabinets beneath them (unless you have a layer of plywood or other extra supports).

Try putting a wooden yardstick on the ground and stomping on it. Chances are you won't be able to break it when it's on the ground. Suspend it between two chairs, and you can easily snap it in half. Sure, stone is much stronger than that, but the same physics apply.

The difference is the amount and distribution of the supports in relation to the amount and distribution of the weight/pressure...

Hi,

What do you like about your current kitchen and what would you change. Think about getting other peoples opinions just like you did in this forum. It is very valuable information.

Your kitchen layout design should be your first priority. Design the kitchen around the way you will use it. Use the time tested kitchen work triangle for a smaller kitchen or work zones for a larger kitchen with an island or second cook.

Other thing that are worth considering:

1. An open kitchen design - very popular and will most likely remain that way.
2. Kitchen island with enough seating for casual dining or entertaining.
3. Second sink with microwave as part of secondary work zone.
4. Lots of counter space for all the reasons listed here.
5. Pull out trays or drawers in base cabinet large enough to store all of your things.
6. Full extension glides on all drawers with soft close.
7. Large kitchen sink are apron sink if that fits your style.
8. Size your appliances for your needs especially your refrigerator, oven(s), and range.
9. Great looking quality cabinets and countertop. 42" high wall cabinets. They may be hard to access but do look great in larger kitchens.

10. There are many excellent countertop materials but quartz is something to take a close look at.
11. Pull out trashcans and recycling bins.
12. Plenty of kitchen storage and separate pantry if possible.
13. Pull out pantry on each side of your range or cooktop for easy access to frequently used items.
14. Glass doors with puck lighting inside cabinets.
15. Hardwood floors have a warm look and are comfortable under foot.
16. Kitchen backsplash with a great design.
17. A thorough kitchen lighting design that gives you task, ambient, general and decorative lighting. This can make or break a kitchen.

There are many more but these are just some of them that I think deserve strong consideration.

Here is a link that might be useful: how to design a kitchen

allight, we're still in the planning stages, and are definitely counting on a prep sink in the island near the range. But I'm not at all interested in a pot filler, especially with the prep sink so close the range for filling -- and, what's more important for me, draining.

Going through the rest of your list, for my own preferences:

gas -- yes, but that's what I grew up with and am most comfortable with (we are probably keeping our old O'Keefe & Merritt 50s range)

induction -- no

warming drawers -- no

wine fridge -- probably not

Oh, and NO spam in kitchen!

Becky

Things I love in my new kitchen:
Ditto on drawers! Love my dishes in drawers next to dishwasher
Advantium 240
Good vent hood- never had one before.
A heat vent under the sink-We didn't plan this but sure is nice on a winter day when you're standing at the sink and warm air blows on your feet.
Pull out water faucet: great for filling the coffee maker!
Windows

# 1 on my must have and non-negotiable item was instant hot
Second thing that was essential was and is LIGHT. Lighting everywhere. Ceiling, under cabinet and under hood

I needed actually useful storage ( had a stupid dinky cupboard that could hardly store 2 cans of tuna side by side!
Needed lots more storage
uninterrupted counter space
comfortable floor - went with cork and love love love it

I wanted and have an appliance garage which I so enjoy

The function of the kitchen has improved so much that it is a pleasure to cook and be in it.
Oh yeah, after working with my sister's, I wanted a pullout by the stove for spices and oils etc

I mentioned my piority earlierof separating the prep zone from the cleanup zone. The very best way, and the only way to do it in my mind, is to have a prep sink. I'm positive that it will be my favorite part of my new kitchen. I know some people say they cook easily with only one sink, but it drives me nuts.

Prep sink.
Prep sink.
Prep sink.

Wow! This is thought-provoking since we are in the midst of renovating a house and are actually living through all of the must haves, can't haves and what I should work in.... (Wonder if I should start a thread on this, hope this is not too long).
Here are the must haves or what I have decided on:
Lots and lots of counterspace and storage
Large kitchen island with cabinets to both sides plus seating area
Separate walk thru pantry with lots of storage for china,extra kitchen equipment and food plus separate freezer
Tall drawers for large pots and storage containers for
"the dreaded Tupperware drawer"
Separate full refrigeratorin kitchen and full freezer in pantry area both with panels - don't want the SS look
Two ovens - one being the Miele speed oven which would serve the place of a microwave and a toaster oven, the other will be from under the full range - see below
A coffee station behind an appliance garage
Garbage/recycling cans to either side and dishwasher
Single bowl sink with runyons for drainage
My splurge - a Capital Culinarian 48" with grill and most importantly a strong, quiet vent hood (paneled) vented to the outside - here waffling between just getting SS for the stove and never getting tired of it or springing for one in red - will I get tired of it?!Will I end up regretting it several years down the road?
Plain, timeless cabinets that I won't get tired of - well made, white without a lot of embellishments
Lots and lots of windows to see the view and two skylights above the large island for natural lighting
Separate lighting - for amibiance and tasks throughout the kitchen

Now for the enigma:
I would like natural stone countertops that are easy to maintain - a matt finish, won't etch, won't stain with oil and can be cleaned. Haven't figured this one out yet - would love some ideas/suggestions, I just don't know which way to go.

What I envision is a honed or antiqued black granite on the periphery and the island (which has the sink in it) I would like a white marble look without the worries of etching, etc.
The people I have been speaking to about the island say that there now is a product that is guanranteed for 15 years against staining and that I could do the marble I wanted, that I don't have to worry. I am worried about "guarantees".
We do heavy duty cooking and entertaining---think wine rings, lemon juice, oil ring, etc. on a daily basis.Right now I have white Corian countertops which I have had for 20 years and still looks great since I can clean and bleach the stains and I don't cut on them (don't want this look again, though.....) Looking for somethings different and don't want to do regular granite.....
Would love some suggestions - better to start a new thread?

vvl yes open a brand new thread to initiate incoming comments and the query back and forth. There ARE answers, that will come. Your last three paragraphs have too many things to comment on here.