What does your contract say? What is written is what rules. Consult the contract, and communicate with your contractor. At this stage, and already over budget, if things are already not being done or being communicated about well on either side of the contract, well, there's probably NOT an improvement ahead. You need to really sit down and decide if this is the contractor for you. And, if he is, then if his attention to detail isn't great, then YOU are going to have to take up the slack. And, if you have to do that much of HIS work, then you might as well GC it yourself.

Usually though, no, he does not have to accept subs that he does not choose, even if they are lower price. His name is on the job, and there can also be a price for a working relationship with him, and between him and his subs. That's part of what you're paying a GC for. Your guys might be well recommended by homeowners who've had work done by them, but a GC might have a different and more knowledgable view of their work or personality quirks that might make them unusable to him.

And, how exactly do you know they are really lower priced? Was the bid package exactly the same? Did you completely specify all of the particulars in the rough in stage and 100% all of the trim packages? Every one of the fixtures by brand, model number, color, etc? If there is anything in which "allowances" are involved, are they roughly the same numbers?

G.C's generally have subs they are familiar with and use regularly and dont like to step out of their m.o. of using a good sub for fear of losing them down the road. It costs money to try and hunt down a decent sub until finding one that works well for them, so your g.c is hesitant to find or allow another. At the risk of pissing off your g.c, unless specified in the contract otherwise, you can insist on subs of your choice, but maybe it would be better to narrow your budget by other avenues such as lesser expensive plumbing fixtures/ lighting fixtures that could be upgraded later on down the road.

Thanks for the responses. I haven't checked our contract so I can't answer that. As far as the pricing goes, both electical subs received the exact same plans and we're using an allowance for the finish, so the bid is only for electrical rough-in. Yes, there could be differences in those as well, but there's less leeway on that I think.

I also understand GC's wanting to use their own known subs, because they can communicate with them and they know each other. On the other hand, my GC works for me, not his subs and it seems like time and again, I'm paying more to make my GC's life easier. That seems somewhat counterintuitive. Plus, doesn't it stand to reason that if a sub knows he's going to get the contract because of his relationship to the GC, he's not going to try that hard to be competitive?

The finishes aren't a place to save money. My electrical rough-in is around $28,000 and the fixture allowance is something like $4,000 so I don't have a lot of room to save that much on my finishes, but if I have a reputable, good electrician who can save me on my rough-in, I don't see why I can't ask that my GC step outside of his comfort zone and give him a try. It's a benefit to my GC as well to find good subs that aren't as expensive, isn't it?

A friend of ours did just that on a major remodel of their home, but it was out of necessity as their builder had his own subs, but simply wasn't scheduling them for her project. As time went by, she ended up getting estimates from other than his subs , not only electrical, but plumbing, drywall, finish carpentry, etc. After realizing she was finally getting something done on her project and getting reputable and reasonable subs on her own, she gave her builder the boot and wish she had long before as she was basically running the show as her own g.c. She will never hire out for a g.c again, but take it upon herself if she is ever invoved in another remodel or build.

In your case i would say go for it and consider what value this g.c has to your project.

You'd better know what you are doing if you "trade package" (no GC) a major remodel. I won't go into the issues that can arise when you do that as it's off the subject line. You should suggest to the GC that he use your electrical sub and see how he reacts. If he says no you can either go with his sub or get another GC. You should understand that if the he hires the sub you recommend and there is a problem with performance (quality and/or schedule) he is the one who has to deal with it and absorb any losses since he gave you a fixed price to perform the work. GC's also like to work with a small group of subs so that they can exert leverage to get them there on schedule and perform quality work. If a GC has subs who bid too high, they don't last long since the GC won't win any jobs. Just some thoughts.

I have no intention of GC'ing this myself. I don't have the time with a full time job and two kids. I did propose my sub to him and he seemed somewhat open minded about it but then turned the sub down because he doesn't have workers comp. I can understand that.

Of all the work that will be done in your home, electrical will most likely take the most from your budget..........and for good reason. It's one area that I'm willing to pay the higher price for the peace of mind.
As mentioned above, a good electrician stays very busy and it can often be difficult to schedule them for your project. If your GC has someone he trusts and knows the guy will show as planned, then I'd suggest spending the extra $$.

When I hired our GC I started with bids from his folks (plumbing and electric). I didn't care for his electrician (he looked at the quality of the fixtures and the remodel and bid based on that...when I scaled back significantly...his price didn't change). So I talked to the GC and told him I'd like to get a couple more bids. We discussed it and he agreed that as long as the company was reputable, he was ok with working with someone new. As it turned out, we have connections with a large company and had them in to do the bid, and finally the work. Our GC met with them in advance, and agreed that they were fine, and we went forward from there with a great deal more confidence than I had with the first electrician.

As it turned out, the plumbers and the gc weren't sufficient for the job despite their claims of experience. In the end, the only one still on the job is the electrician, who we will use in all future jobs as well.

We were lucky to have connections with a high quality electrical company (we own a large company that uses the company on multimillion dollar jobs so we knew they'd make an effort to do things right without screwing us).

I'd ask your GC how they feel before giving in on this. It's important that they work with you as well as with the subs. A good GC should be open to a new relationship with a sub. Our GC (that we fired) ended up really wanting to use the electrical company again because they were so good...so in the end it was a good thing for him.

When we started with our GC, we told him that we'd already decided on an electrician and plumber. So, that wasn't included in his bid. However, after he bid the job and we'd accepted we decided that we'd like to use the painter that we'd used in the past on our home. We asked our GC if he would have a problem with us getting a bid from our own painter. He said that he'd have no problem with it. It worked out well. The GC's sub was $1500, and our painter was $950, and we know his work. Our GC was happy to accomodate us. Worked out well for our painter too - I believe he'll be doing more work with our GC in the future. We've been able to maintain very open communication with our GC - and that really is valueable to us.
Boxie

If your contract says the GC's compensation is based on the Cost of the Work plus a Fixed Fee, you usually have the right to suggest subs and to choose which of the bidders are selected. You're paying so you get to choose.

If you have a Fixed Price contract, then you can suggest a different sub but the GC is not obligated to reduce his Fixed Price if that price is lower, although he might if he feels he has no risk of going over his fixed price amount (of course, he doesn't know that yet). In this case, you agreed to his Fixed Price so any savings belong to him. He's paying so he gets to choose.

In any case, the GC is not your employee and therefore he does not actually "work for you" and it can only complicate matters if you think of your relationship in that way. He has entered into an agreement to build your house within the terms of the contract for a set price and you are held to those terms as well. Neither of you can change the terms without the consent of the other.

Excuse me mightyanvil, but since I'm the one writing checks with his name on them, I think he does in fact work for me. As for the terms of the contract, the electrical is currently an allowance, so the lower the price, the less I pay for the work. He gets 15% so he gains nothing by having a lower subcontract price, except for that needling thing that he works for me and if he wants more work in the future, he's better off having a happy client than an unhappy one.

I have never seen a Fixed Price contact that required a GC to reveal his costs to the Owner. Unless you have a different kind of contract, it appears that you are willing to accept the cost protection of a Fixed Price/Lump Sum contract but are not willing to grant the GC the cost protection of spreading his overrun risk over all of the project work. That is not only contrary to your contract, it's not fair. If the painting sub couldn't perform on schedule and the GC had to pay more to hire another sub on short notice, would you pay the upcharge? That would be the case in a Cost of the Work contract but not in a Fixed Price contract.

The GC can certainly pass on to you by Change Order any of his cost savings but he would be doing so as a courtesy, not because he was obligated to do so because he was "working for you". There is unlikely to be such terms in your contract. His obligation is to build according to the contract documents and the building code and your obligation is to compensate him for that work according to the contract. The GC has no contractural obligation to lower his Fixed Price unless he has provided less than what the documents require or you have reduced the scope of the work.

For an Allowance the rules are different. This is really a small Cost of the Work contact inside of a Fixed Price contract and the final compensation is resolved by a Change Order to the Fixed Price contract. Allowances should be reserved for materials impractical to select before the contract had to be signed. When an Allowance contains labor it gets difficult to protect the Owner from excessive costs since the sub can set the labor price at any level unless unit prices were included in the original contract (highly recommended). The GC is usually not concerned since he gets to mark up the sub's excessive mark up. This Cost Plus work is often a major part of a GC's profit in a Fixed Price contract.

In normal practice, if there are enough Allowances, the GC might be willing to run the job as if it were a Cost of the Work contract and therefore reveal all of his costs to you and let you treat him as if he "works for you". But then again if some of his costs are higher than he anticipated, he might find himself losing money and change his attitude.

I administrate construction contracts for Owners and force GC's to meet their contract obligations in order to protect my clients but I am careful to not step over the line by ignoring the Owner's obligations to the GC.

The best attitude on a job site is for veryone to feel they are working toward the same goal. Encroaching on a CG's rights will foster an "us vs them" attitude which can only be detrimental to the Owner in the end.

IMHO you would be better off dropping the "he works for me" attitude, become more familiar with the contract, and think a bit more about your obligations to the GC.

Thanks for the unnecessary lesson in contract administration but as I said quite clearly, the electrical subcontract is an allowance. It's an allowance because my Contractor only had one bid in at the time of the Contract signing which is not adequate in my opinion and does not provide me, as the client, with the assurance that we are getting a fair price and the Contractor has done his due dilligence. Also, I knew that we'd want to refine the lighting design, especially once we had an electrician on board who could give us some advice on it. Therefore, we agreed that the electrical would be an allowance and to date he's only gotten one other price (which was slightly lower than the first).

It was my original question as to whether I, as the client and the Owner, (and the person paying the cost of the subcontract) have the right to look for another electrical contractor who may be lower than the other two bids, and (if that electrician is reasonable and responsible), request that the contractor take this subcontract. I did not ask for a condescending tirade about Cost Plus or Fixed Price Contracts. If a Contractor wishes to maintain a good relationship with their client, they should look out for the best interests of their client, especially when it makes not financial difference to them (being that this is an allowance and he has his 15% secured). On the flip side, I as an Owner, remain completely fair with my Contractor and realize that it's in both of our best interests that he be able to make money and not be put in a bad situation, which I'm always looking out for as well. I'm a team player and expect my Contractor to be one as well.

If the electrical rough-in IS NOT specifically identified in the contract as an Allowance (you did not say it was) then all of what I told you is relevant to your situation.

If the electrical rough-in IS specifically identified as an Allowance in the contract you can negotiate with the contractor, in any way you wish, as if it were a miniature Cost of the Work contract for the reasons I explained.

I think that information is useful and a clear response to your question.

Why do you ask a question if you are so convinced you already know the answer to it? And why are you so defensive and reluctant about taking advice from others?

The question I asked was if I find a subcontractor that my Contractor may not have a relationship with, and his price is reasonable and responsive, can I expect my Contractor to use that Sub. I wasn't clear in my first message that the electrical is an allowance, but I did in subsequent messages.

I'm defensive because of your always condescending attitude and rude demeanor. You constantly assume that we clients are either a). stupid, b). selfish or c). all of the above. You never give the client the benefit of the doubt or accept that I have gladly accepted advice from others, who have offered their expertise without a long dissertation or condescending tirade. You've done this to others on many occasions and have sworn never to return to this forum since your "advice" doesn't seem to be "appreciated", and yet here you are.

Caligirl cottage, MightyAnvil has a great deal of experience but is, in fact, convinced that his experience is the only way things are done and he thinks the rest of us are idiots. This is the same person who claimed in a different thread that architects never charge a percentage of construction costs. He's simply flat out wrong.

His rude demeanor drives people with questions off this forum when this is likely the most important forum to provide advice on how not to get caught in bad situations.

In mightyanvil's world, all architects and contractors are perfect and all homeowners are stupid and naive. Well, we might be naive (about some things to do with remodeling) but that's why we're asking questions.

Thanks fern4, you articulated this far better than I could. While I appreciate Mightyanvil's experience, it is in fact just his, and not (as he often portrays) a universal truth.

He also stated that ALL contractors will sign an unmodified AIA form Contract, which is not my experience at all. I've yet to find a contractor who will sign an unmodified AIA form.

In any event, I will endeavor to not respond to these tirades anymore because I really do appreciate the various and helpful opinions that can be found here.
Thanks

You are not the first to misunderstand my comments or insult me here. I left for a year after the first week or two because of an aggressive architect hater, then came back for a few months and left again for 6 months after similar harassment.

Both times I came back, I was looking for the architects who used to participate here but none of them is active anymore and it's no fun without any support.

Apparently I have to leave to get anyone to say thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: other opinions

If you're still here, mightyanvil, let me say this. I have been misunderstood as well, and insulted, for my views. Sometimes it's because I have opinions that others don't share. Sometimes it's because my opinions sound as if I'm stating absolute facts when I'm trying to be clear that it's just my opinion. I've read some of your posts and more often than not they come across as the gospel, not subject to discussion. And hostile too, to those of us not in the profession.

Do we need people who are in the professions to participate? Of course we do! The heart of the stress and anxiety of all this building and remodeling is the expectations that home owners have that are frequently in error. The remodeling forum, in particular, should be a place where people can get straightened out about how to go about a project, what to expect, how to communicate, what things will likely cost, how to negotiate a contract, etc. But instead this forum frequently puts down people who are at the beginning stages, basically assuming they are stupid only because they haven't negotiated this business before.

The issue of how much things should cost, will cost, have cost, might cost is a huge issue. It is hugely stressful to the home owners on these forums. It just doesn't help for professional people to lecture or denigrate us amateurs.

"The issue of how much things should cost, will cost, have cost, might cost is a huge issue".

It's a complicated issue. The best one can hope for when asking for costs is to have someone out there that has happened to have had or is going through a very similar project. There are so many variables when even asking for a ballpark. Many aspects vary by region. When someone asks me for a ballpark, i schedule a time and date to take a look and see exactly what they have in mind and figure it up as close as possible. That's as ballpark as i will go because throwing #'s out there that aren't real world might be well off the mark leaving the person concerned disappointed. I only take on small projects now days and never went big, but it's basically the same m.o. Even when a similar project comes along, there are materials costs differences,(up and down), as well as many other factors. I can state what the similar past project cost, but it might differ greatly in the present tense.

Imo, when considering a project, get estimates locally, always get more than one, and check references as well as look at current and past projects.

Just to throw in my final two cents on this issue; I am a client who actually does have some experience in the commercial construction world so I come to this forum for the very unique perspective about residential remodeling. It makes it all the harder to be condescended to when it comes to things like telling me the difference between a fixed price versus a cost plus contract, when I'm really looking for a nuance to a remodeling construction relationship with my contractor. I also hate the assertion that clients always are trying to screw their contractor, or suggesting that to question a contractor (or, GASP, an architect) is to invite an acrimonious relationship. I hardly think that mightyanvil would be laying down his principals or his checkbook to his contractor in the name of professionalism.

And on that note, let me just thank once again everyone on here who tries, with whatever resources and knowledge they have, to help others and assist people in getting through what really is a very complex process, regardless of your background.

fern4 & caligirl, I have given you both a great deal of specific detailed professional advice in response to difficult construction contract questions and rather than taking it or leaving it you have challenged me and then twisted my statements in order to discredit me and, I assume, to justify insulting me.

You both need to read the following quotes and think about your actions.

F4 - "This is the same person who claimed in a different thread that architects never charge a percentage of construction costs."

What I actually said was: "Because of the obvious conflict of interest, I've never billed a fee based on a % of the construction cost and I don't know any architects who have."

That happens to be my experience and I have worked for numerous firms over 40 years and know quite a few architects but I could not possibly know how ALL architects are compensated. Why would you misrepresent my statement?

Another example:
CC - "He also stated that ALL contractors will sign an unmodified AIA form Contract, which is not my experience at all." [emphasis hers]

What I actually said was: "You are quite mistaken about AIA contracts; they are not biased toward the owner and they can be easily EDITED." [emphasis added]
"A105 manages to get so small by omitting sections like Dispute Resolution, so if Arbitration or Mediation is desired, it must be ADDED. I believe it is safer to use A107 and DELETE the sections you and your contractor donÂt want with the advice of your architect and lawyer." [emphasis added]

Does that sound like an "unmodified" AIA contract? Why would you misrepresent my statements?

Neither of you is willing to ask questions or try to raise your level of knowledge of construction contracts higher than that of conventional wisdom and contractor practice.

The reason I post here is that I have spent my entire professional career protecting Owners from all of the risks of construction projects costing $4,000 to $40 million. That is where my loyalty will always be but apparently it is impossible to get any respect if I am not charging for my time.

Caligirl,
If you are experienced with commercial construction then you know the number one rule when resolving a potential conflict when there is a contract - read the contract. No one here can give you a definitive answer, even if there is potentially one to be had, unless you know the terms of your contract. Even if there were a law or a standard business practice, that is (likely) irrelevent if it conflicts with your contract.

It's a too late now, but for anyone else reading this, electrical (other than fixtures) should not be done as an allowance. Even if you only had one quote it should have been written with that as the maximum and should have specifically listed the terms under which you (and he) would seek alternative bids. Whenever there is a verbal understanding you should always put it in the contract.

I did not find MA's explanations condescending at all. Since you asked a question based on a contracted relationship and didn't read the contract, I am sure he assumed you were a newby and not someone experienced in construction. Understanding the differences between fixed price, cost plus, etc., is actually very helpful for those who don't understand how the residential construction process works.

Sue36, I'm not sure where you got the impression that I didn't read the contract. The reason the electrical is an allowance contractually is in case we (contractor, or possibly me) find another lower bid. The original bid he has for electrical is our default. You're right, we should have included in the contract everything, including how we would have additional bids sought, there is where the shortfall lies. And as I'm familiar with commercial construction, my experience is that if you have to read the contract to resolve a conflict, you're coming to the table too late.

Since this was a remodel, like many (perhaps naive) homeowners, we had a lot of discussions about things that weren't incorporated into the Contract and my original question was whether I could bring a subcontractor and expect my GC to use him, if his price were lower, even if my GC doesn't have a relationship with him. In other words, could he insist that we stick with the original proposal. There is nothing in the Contract that resolves this or addresses this question, so it's of no assistance. When I discuss this with my Contractor, I was hoping to have others' experiences to help guide my discussion, that's all.

MA's explanations were condescending as they preached about how my Contractor doesn't work for me, that I should basically change my attitude, etc. etc. while never actually answering the original question.

Had this been my first experience with MA, or had I been the only person I'd experienced this kind of attitude taken by MA, then I might have kept my consternation to myself, but I've seen him insult people who come here on more than one occasion, and MA admits to having offended people in the past, which is why he's left a number of times. I only wanted to underscore once again that this forum is best served by people who keep an open mind, provide their assistance and do so without talking down to or insulting others.

Thanks Sue but you're wasting your time. Caligirl stubbornly insists on making up alternative versions of what she and others have said and nothing is going to deter her.

She said the electrical rough-in was bid and the fixtures were an allowance and now claims all of it was an allowance, or maybe it was an allowance that got bid or a bid that was really more like an allowance...

I mentioned that others had offended me in the past so I left, she decides that I left because I offended people.

There is something ugly going on here and I want no further part of it.

Caligirl can now take her place with the super trolls Mrbtrsweet and Manhattan42 who have stripped the forum of design professionals.

Caligirl,
I didn't mean you "never" read the contract, I meant you hadn't re-read it now to look to see how if this could be resolved by the terms of the contract. You wrote, "I haven't checked our contract..."

The big problem isn't getting your own electrician, painter, or other subcontractor on a cost plus contractor contract. I pay my contractor 20% on everthing he does or subs out and shows me the bills. I ordered the kicthen cabinets and granite--hence he agreed he wasn't going to get paid on that.

Problems could arise when you find a cheaper subcontractor and he says fine, but he still wants his 20% overage. This is the potential area of conflicts. I remember picking out my sinks and he asked if I wantedhim to order them. I told him I have done hours of research and the ordering wouldbe the easiest process. He'll get paid for installation.

But I can see with lots of contractors working on a job-plus basis that they could get quite ornery,or worse!

Greg

My contractor gets 15% and I really don't mind paying him that since I might find a sub but he is responsible for managing, directing and being responsible for the subs work. I would have a problem if I took over that entire trade and supervision, but I probably won't do that. I figure that my doing my homework is good for us both and it's part of the process as a homeowner to put in many hours of work to find materials, get the best pricing or shipping times, etc.

We are master electricians in Dallas. Recently we were the electrical subs on new $3million construction. We were doing $30,000 worth of work. This GC, who we had worked before, was notorious for keeping a pig pen work site. As time went on it became apparent that the home owner and the GC were having problems. This was an extensive work site that involved many subs in several crafts. Frequently we were the only subs working.

Finally, the home owner fired the GC. He was up to date with us and we were ready to leave the job. However, the fired GC said we could deal directly with the home owner. Before we finished the job the home owner gave us 20 change notices. Think he thought since we were allready there the changes wouldn't be a big deal. Wrong! The changes amounted to $12,000. He was doing this with all the subs. We did OK on the job but in retrospect it took too long. A good deal of the time I worked alone while my son had to take care of other jobs. There were 100 recessed lights on this job, some 25 ft. high. There was 6,000 ft. of wiring, 30 3-way dimmers and two 200 amp service panels. Just food for thought.