Great idea if you like cleaning cooking grease off of glass

I put new thermal pane glass into fixed frames for a customer. She then cranked up her outdoor barbecue about a foot away and cracked the glass from the heat. So I'd be careful about your clearances.

This is a BAD idea on so many levels. And, despite "not having codes", the minimum I'd look for in any home that I'd buy would be compliance with national building codes. Codes are there for safety reasons, not to PO homeowners, and any home that had a range in front of a window, I'd have to wonder what other code/safety issues were shortchanged and just hidden behind walls. And, I'd probably be right in wondering.

For all the reasons above. In our area, tempered glass must be used if within 12" of any heat source. Even at that, it's simply not a good idea.

I like live wire's attitude towards codes. Even though there are some we may not agree with, they are there for a reason and must be respected especially when safety is concerned. A code free area is not a free ticket out of jail and responsibility on your part is to find out what the international building codes or the national building codes have to say and apply that into your project.

As you mentioned, a vent isn't always necessary and its main purpose is to carry away smoke and grease from grilling and frying. I have a large Dacor hood and never turn it on because of the noise the motor makes, but then we also never grill or fry on the cooktop.
We recently replaced a Jenn-Air in DS's home with a new cooktop......without a vent. They grill outdoors and never fry.

I can't add anything regarding the safety of the glass but if the venting code becomes an issue during resale at least you have access to the attic to add an island-type hood.

So, to answer your question of 'is it essential', it depends on your style of cooking.

Here is a link that might be useful: vent

Hat's off to "Live Wire" on the issue of codes.

Anyone who takes the attitude that they can do things any way they like because there are no codes or inspections in their jurisdiction is fooling no one but themselves. Codes only define a minimum set of parameters to insure safety and quality of construction. In fact, if one only builds to code minimum they are fooling no one but themselves.

I live in a region where codes are implemented and enforced by the local county or municipality having jurisdiction and in many areas they simply have no enforcement whatsoever. As a result the courts are overwhelmed with litigations on property damage or personal injuries which resulted from the scab building methods.

This problem has now gotten so far out of hand that nearly all the banks and lending institutes are requiring a complete home inspection before they will extend a mortgage. In addition, the county has implemented a regulation whereby all landlords are required to have all their rental properties inspected for code compliance at least once every two years and where major code violations are noted they must be corrected before the structure can be occupied.

Just one month ago the county released a list of 300 homes in our county that cannot be occupied as is and must be brought up to full code compliance within 180 days or the structure must be torn down and the landscape restored to natural.

They also published a list of 41 homes that were torn down by the county at the homeowners expense in the last quarter.

Now don't think these problems are only confined to slumlords either. Of the 41 homes on the list to be torn down, 5 are upper end custom homes that were constructed within the last 8 years.

Great report, lazypup. Sounds like your county is taking appropriate action. There is a trailer park down in the lower desert here in ca. that is on reservation land. The place was so bad off that the tribal council finally agreed to inspections which inadvertantly lead to mowing the places down. It was simply that bad. Everything from electrical, plumbing, septic was so hazardous that they were amazed that a disaster hadn't happened long ago!

I would agree w/the above posters - Our 1st KD had cook top caddy cornered by window - I chose not to go w/them.
Additionally it just seems like bad design overall - like, hey they had nowhere else to put it, so there it is.

good luck

I have mixed feelings about some codes. Often, it appears that no one thought about cost-benefit ratio. When I started in first grade,we were tenant farmers living in a house that we did not own. We did buy 6 acres nearby and started a house using lumber sawn (with steam-powered sawmill) from trees we cut on the property. No chainsaws then, used two-man crosscut saw for cutting the trees. The place we were living was sold and the new owner wanted occupancy for himself. So we got a shell house built and moved in, just the outside walls and a roof. The well was dug by hand, 47 feet deep. The first winter was brutal with just a wood cookstove for heat. But the interior was completed room-by room at night after the day's employment for wages with an Aladdin lamp for light. After about 4 years, we got central heat and then we could install plumbing. Code issues of today: Structural lumber must be grade marked, interior must be finished, plumbing, heating, even landscaping (health and safety justification), completed. Instead of paying rent, we lived there and spent the money to complete the house- without one dime of debt-ever. Some codes increase costs far beyond the benefit offered. Increased costs penalize poor people most. We rose from poverty faster by doing it as much as possible ourselves.

"Some codes increase costs far beyond the benefit offered. Increased costs penalize poor people most."

Until sub-standard methods result in the house falling down.

While codes DO increase costs, the codes are rather minimal if you want a 'minimum' installation.

Of course you are free to ignore them and use inadequate methods, or even a cheap flue and kill everyone in the house one night...

ANYONE INTERESTED IN A PUZZLE?

I have a photograph of the plumbing in the crawlspace of a rather high end home.

The realtor's home inspector examined the plumbing and stated on his report that there was no problems worthy of note.

The buyers bank had their inspector look at the property prior to writing a mortgage and he stated that there were numerous code infringements in the DWV piping in the crawlspace.

The buyer attempted to get a mortgage from a second bank and had the same experience with the second bank.

To settle the argument both the buyer and seller agreed to have the official county plumbing inspector review the property, and when all was said and done, the county inspector condemned the entire Plumbing system and pulled the certificate of occupancy until such time as the entire plumbing system is redone to code.

If anyone is interested send me an email and I will send you a copy of the picture then you can see if you find any code discrepancies. ( Here is a tip, after more than 6 months of examining the photo, I can not find one single pipe that meets code)

So we got a shell house built and moved in

Growing up in Ohio I remember all the covered basements you'd see in the countryside. The families lived there till they could save up enough to build the rest of their home.

I will send you a copy of the picture
Why not post it so we can all see it?

If anyone has mastered the art of posting a picture I would be glad to send them a copy to post

Maybe we could start a new thread with it as a plumbing puzzle

Regarding codes that are expensive for homeowners, the story below is one of the latest chapters in which 7 college students died in a fire, now officially ruled to be caused by "carelessly discarded smoking materials". In NC, it is illegal for person under the age of 21 to possess or drink alcoholic beverages. As a result of this fire, NC is now considering requiring fire sprinklers in all new residential construction. Last night, the TV had news of a fire caused by an overturned propane radiant heater, powered from portable propane tank, occupant of house in critical condition. Oil furnace as primary system, the oil tank was found to be empty. Also as part of the story, interview with local fire sprinkler contractor, who said that the fire would have been contained to just that room if sprinklers, etc. I was previously a member of an active volunteer fire dept and my son is an engineer for a company that makes fire sprinkler components, so I do have a perspective on this issue. But how does one afford sprinklers if there is no money for heating oil? And whatever happened to the concept of personal responsibility for one's behavior- smoking and alcohol, for example? And what about the situations where a sprinkler might actuate unnecessarily- freezing, accidental bumping, etc? Water damage can be significant. I went to a house under renovation last week where the 3/8 inch supply tube to a commode had ruptured and run uncontrolled for at least a day over the weekend- what a mess! Any of you have fire sprinklers in your home? If you were a member of a code-making council and decided to add such a requirement, would you have them retrofitted to your home in order to show sincerity?

Here is a link that might be useful: Tragedy

lazypup, send me the pic.......I'll post it.
I'm not surprised the realtor's inspector failed to find anything. In our last 3 home purchases, including DS's purchase, we've found realtor inspectors to be useless.
After the first fiasco, we now only use independent inspectors before making such a major decision.

bus driver,
I don't have a sprinkler system in my home and don't think I'd ever choose to. As you mentioned, I'd worry about the possible damage due to accidental activation, plus, how would you ever test the system?

DS is building an equestrian area and chooses not to add a sprinkler system simply because he wouldn't be able to afford the building if he were forced to install the system. Instead, he's making sure every stall has it's own paddock so that each horse can get outside the building. There will also be gates from each paddock.

There is no need to test a NFPA 13D system unless there is a fire pump. The only testing done on commercial systems are visual inspections, fire pump testing and pressure tests which are done via an inspectors test valve. On the issue of accidental activation, very difficult since the heads are so unobtrusive. Some manufacturers even have heads that are semi concealed. On the freezing issue, the most common method is to add Ethylene Glycol to the system. It should be noted that if the sprinkler pipes freeze other water piping would be affected also.

OK for those still interested - Here is the pic lazypup has appropriately named "plumbing puzzle"

good luck to all those trying to solve this one!

For starters, the traps are too far below the device they serve. And the lower "tee" at the left of the picture is the wrong type for that application. Several other prob ems, too. What a mess!

There is not a single pipe in that picture that would pass code inspection.

OK, here are some but not all of the code violations noted:

1.All the Sanitary TeeÂs are illegal. Sanitary TeeÂs are prohibited on a horizontal line. To make a right angle connection on a horizontal line you must use a Wye & 1/8th bend or a Combo.

2. The maximum permissible vertical distance from a drain opening to the trap water level is 24" except for a laundry standpipe, which may be 42" under the IRC or 30" under the UPC, however the UPC requires the laundry standpipe trap must be on the same floor as the standpipe.

3.Examine the trap in the center. Notice that it has a 1/2bend (inverted 180deg section) with a "Street 1/4bend on the discharge side. This is the correct method of making a glue-in type trap. Now examine the trap on the right side and the trap in the rear. Both of those traps have a short nipple on the discharge side of the 1/2bend with a common ¼ bend turning to horizontal. This extends the water level beyond maximum code standards. (Trap water depth 4" min. & 6" maximum)

4.Asssuming for the moment that the traps were legal in the present locations, they would still be required to be two-piece union type traps because code requires a cleanout at every change of direction greater than 45deg.

5.It would require additional information to confirm, but if the fixtures on the floor above are connected to the drains by means of traps in the conventional manner then these traps would all be illegal because code prohibits double trapping.

6.The only cleanout in the entire photo is the one below the trap to the right. Not that this cleanout is connected by means of a sanitary tee, which is prohibited. They could have used a "Rodding Tee", which is a specialized tee that has a curved radius in both directions and only used for cleanouts, however there is no reason to have a cleanout at that point.

7.There are numerous changes of direction greater than 45deg with no cleanouts.

8.Code requires a pipe support within 12" of a change in direction and one every 48" linear inches of horizontal run. (Only two pipe straps visible in the print)

9.Of the two support straps visible, both are steel strapping. Code prohibits using metal hangers on plastic pipe.

How did that mess pass in the first place?

I'd surmise either no inspection, or one by a hastily qualified inspector. Where I build, the city eliminated separate plumbing and HVAC inspectors on housing by combining their duties with general building inspectors resulting, I think, in a notable decline in quality.

That pic should be on a test for obtaining a plumbing licence!

Any primer in the picture?

What a disaster.

worthy: go up a couple posts, Lazypup stated that this was in an area with no code enforcement.

Lazypup you mind if I post the original picture on a few other sites?

The original installation was done by as an owner/builder DIY project in an area where they have no inspections.

What I found most disturbing about the whole incident was the realtors home inspector who officially noted under "Plumbing" on his report,"No problems worth of note".

I would invite you to post the pic to other sites, but if it is not too much inconvenience, would you also email me the site addresses..I would be interested in following the replies.

lazypup said: I live in a region where codes are implemented and enforced by the local county or municipality having jurisdiction and in many areas they simply have no enforcement whatsoever.

Now we know which.

Since anyone can call themselves a "home inspector", that's about what you would expect--especially one recommended by a party with money at stake, i.e., the commission.

As for the DIY owner-builder. I'm sure somebody warned him along the way, but he knew better. They always do.

"As for the DIY owner-builder. I'm sure somebody warned him along the way, but he knew better. They always do."

Do not bet any money the owner/builder even asked.

I have seen a couple venting screw ups that resulted in all sorts of fun sound effects every time the upstairs toilet was flushed.
The owner knew how to drain water, but nothing about venting.
He flat out asked "What are those pipes in the roof for?"

Guilty! Remodeled the bathrooms where we currently live and tied into the existing vent w/o running another for the toilets. Now when one is flushed, the other sings the blues (girgles), but they function. Lesson learned: when your over your head, get a pro!

The story is told, no doubt apocryphal, about the first high rise building in New York with flush toilets. Mo one knew anything about venting and thus there were no vents. One day a gentleman used the toilet, seated. Flushed it prior to rising. When he tried to stand, the resulting vacuum held him firmly in place. Fear of embarrassment caused him to struggle for a while. Finally he decided to call for help. Opening his mouth solved the problem. Plumbing has not been the same since then.

In Brookfield, Ohio there are three two bedroom houses side by side that were all built by the same owner builder.

I got called to check a problem on a drain that continually plugs up and discovered that there is not one vent in the entire structure, and the other two houses were built the same way.

Too funny bus driver!

Im still betting lazypup you never had to straighten out a mess as bad as the pic you e'd and posted although the three two bdrm homes sound close!

Bus driver, I found your story and your statements about codes to be very profound. Also, worthy, I too grew up in Ohio and remember some family friends living in their basement for two years while they built their home on top. This was back in the 50ties. It is interesting how various codes have developed over the years. I know in the electrical business that many people want their work done to code but then balk about having a permit pulled. Then we deal with issues related to building codes dealing with the placement and wiring of smoke alarms. You are supposed to get a permit to erect a small storage shed in your back yard. I didn't.

The homw in which I was reared was in a township in Ohio in which we had a water well and a septic system. Eventually, the township dug their own wells and ran water pipes through the area along the back of properties. From the back of our house to the water system piping was 150ft. One summer my Dad and I dug a trench from the back of our house to the water line that ran from 6ft. to 8ft. deep. We dug the trench by hand. Couldn't really afford to hire a backhoe. That was 1956. The township ran the water line from their system to the house and tied into our plumbing. Permits? Don't think so.

The single bathroom in a five-bedroom three storey 19th Century home I owned always had an odour that I attributed to the housekeeping habits of the students renting it. Just before I sold it, I gutted the bath to redo it and the plumber found that there was no venting.

texasredhead Same era--'50-'55, in Belle Center, New Bremen, Findlay and Toldeo.

Worthy, I grew up in Mansfield. Met and married my wife, had three children and we moved to Texas in 1971. Had enough of the bad winters.