That old pup seems to be a past master at shooting the ... ahem, "dealing with" the production that humans make ...

... that, not wanting around any more ...

... they want to dispose of as discreetly as possible!

o j

not lazypup but i bought a Toto about 8 years ago and love it, as much as that word goes with "toilet" lol. It has clogged maybe 3 times and that was when my DGS was using it! This is the one that I have:

Here is a link that might be useful: Toto toilet

This is a topic that is sure to open a can of worms...LOL

Back in the late 80's when the government mandated water saver toilets it caught most of the manufacturers sitting on their hands with not much to offer. They all scrambled to reinvent the wheel so to speak, and for most there was a learning curve which lasted about 5 to 7 years.

In the mean time, Japan had previously mandated a similar standard so they already had toilets that could meet the specifications without modification. As a result, while the other manufacturers went back to the drawing board suffering a long period of trial & errors until they worked out the kinks, Toto hit the ground running and instantly created an image as the best performing toilets on the market, however while Toto unquestionably had the most reliable product, in the early days, they also had a much higher rate of failure in the U.S. than what they had experienced in Japan.

In the course of time it was realized that a large part of the problems had absolutely nothing to do with the fixture. Originally all toilets had a 5 gallon per flush (GPF) water consumption, and in the 70's that was reduced to 3.5gpf. Now with 5gpf and 3.5gpf the fixtures required a 4" diameter drain line, but when we began replacing those fixtures with the new 1.6gpf water savers everybody was complaining about frequently clogged toilets. Little did they know at the time,the problem was not the fixture, but rather the drain lines under the fixture was too big.

Now that may sound silly, but horizontal drain lines are sized so that at full load the pipe will be 1/2full under gravity flow. That allows a sufficient level of water to convey the suspended solids in the waste, while still leaving the upper 1/2 of the pipe open for the free transfer of vent air.

When they began installing 1.6gpf fixtures on the 4" lines the resultant water level in the pipe was not sufficient to properly suspend the solid particulates in the waste. The larger solids then rubbed and dragged along the pipe, while the liquids went under or around them and within a short distance the solids were left sitting in the pipe. After the liquids passed the solids dried in place and created an obstruction to the next discharge causing it to build up until the line was totally clogged.

The solution was to reduce the line size from 4" to 3". Now understanding that a 3" line has just slightly more than 1/2 the cross sectional area of a 4" line, this minor change effectively raised the full load level in the pipe back to the efficient 1/2 full level, which would effectively convey the solids.

In the mean time, while Toto took the attitude that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", the other manufacturers were still thinking the problems rested with their fixtures and they moved ahead with even more efficient designs.

Now don't get me wrong here. I do not mean to imply in any way that the Toto's are not top line products, but based solely upon performance they are no longer the "Top of the line" performers. In fact, if you examine the "Toilet Performance Test Results" you will see that nearly all of the Toto's fall in the high midrange performers, while nearly every fixture offered by American Standard & Gerber outperforms them.

The question then comes down to what is your criteria in selecting a new water closet? If you are looking for a good performer with a very high brand recognition & snob appeal then without question Toto is for you. On the other hand, if your looking for maximum performance you may want to consider American Standard or Gerber.

If you want the latest in high tech bells and whistles, Toto now has a model that when you finish your body function you can push a button and a little spray arm swings out and washes your backside, then you push another button and a blow drier swings out to finish the job....LOL.

Now if you want the maximum in Snob appeal, I have a specialty catalog that lists custom made toilets that start out at $2100 and go up to $9000 for the wall mounted high tank with gold plated pipes and pull chain. (Oh yes,those prices are the wholesale to your plumber prices. They do not sell to the public).

Now if you follow the posts on most internet boards they will tell you unequivacally that you need a Toto, but keep in mind that most of the ppl making that recommendation are homeowners who have probably never bought more than two or three toilets in their life, and since the Toto they have now seems to outperform what they experienced in the past, they will swear by them.

In turn you will also see nearly all the Plumbers recommending Toto, and with good reason. Since Toto is the widely accepted Cadilac or Lexus of the line so to speak, they can charge a much higher markup to install a Toto, and they get no arguments from the customer.

If you would like to review the performance test results here is a link;

http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/MaP_8th_Edition.pdf

Back when I was toilet shopping, I noticed that people on the Bathroom forum (or whatever it's called) LOVED Totos. I ended up buying a basic model Kohler from Home Depot or Lowe's and a basic Toto from another dealer. I LOVE the Kohler. I do NOT love the Toto, which has given me more than its share of problems. The Kohler is efficient and trouble-free.

BTW, the Toto saleswoman said to me, "Your friends will be so impressed that you have a Toto!" That statement almost stopped the sale right there. Probably should have.

Alisande, you may have gotten your Kohler after they perfected the low water usage design. As far as I know, the first water-wise Kohlers clogged, but whatever you have, I'm glad you like it. There must be a lot of good toilets on the market now.

I have a Toto, purchased 9 years ago. It works fine, has an occasional clog. It's an ADA-approved toilet, meaning it is higher than a "regular" toilet, and I would highly recommend that.

Thanks for all the info, Lazypup. Great review of the current state of affairs for toilets!

Yeah, I wish I had gotten the taller models. I thought it would be a long time before my knees got creaky. Silly me!

Aren't you wonderful to take the time to write out all that information for me (us)!! Many thanks, Lazypup. It's an excellent read and I'll have my dh read it as well when he comes home. This horizontal line you're talking about, is it under the house and how long does it run? Would it be there in a 1959 house? I also admire the language you use when talking about toilets. :)

We just got a new toilet- I will try to look at the name when I get home. So far only one flush needed regardless of "what is in the bowl" AND we can use two-ply "non-tree bark" paper (old toilet was a good 15 years old and quite temperamental).

We put in an American Standard Champion 4, and it indeed flushes like a champ. The only problem is that in the first couple of months, the installer had to replace the flapper, the flusher handle, and the water tower - which the AS people replaced for free. Since then, it's worked perfectly (fingers and toes crossed). BTW, we got the 'tall' model, for which my knees are most grateful.

They say the American Standard can flush 12 golf balls. Now I am not a golfer so I don't know that to be a fact, and having priced golf balls out of curiosity, you can be sure that is one test I don't intend to try any time soon...LOL

My old model sometimes swirls ...

... and swirls ...

... and swirls some more.

And sometimes when it does the "gurgle" at the end ...

... leaves some residue ...

...of the kind ...

... from my behind ...

.. behind!

Which means that I must flush again (if I'm still there).

And sometimes it just swirls ... without the gurgle at the end.

That said ... I can't believe the efficiency of these modern toilets ...

Just a little splash ...

... and a sucking noise ...

... and everything's gone! It's right back to its original condition!

ole joyful (unburdened)

Our house was built in 1995 and I had always assumed "the problem" was drain pipes that were too small. But maybe they are too big!

Anyhow, my motto since moving here is "flush early, flush often." I get a clog almost every time if I flush any amount of solids and paper together. But if I flush solids, then flush paper, no problem.

We built a new house in 2001. The only toilet that has performed perfectly with no trouble is a Kohler. (Says 1.6 gal. per flush on it.)

I'm also very happy with two big American Standard pedestal sinks in our master bath.

I am very UNhappy with American Standard fixtures. Yes, they have lifetime replacement on parts, but the fail rate on our faucets has been HUGE, and although parts are free, the plumber isn't. Six faucets in our master bath have had their 'innards' replaced twice. (We are *gentle* people.) The Am. Std. shower faucets need attention now too. (I followed the lead plumber's advice and have Grohe behind the tile.)

Thanks for the comments and suggestions, everyone! OJ, you old dog, you. You're a very clever boy, you know?

Lazypup, is it worth it to change the line to a 3-incher if we have a 4-incher? (I don't know what we have at this time.)