Thanks for all the replies. I'm not in a big hurry and I tend to research things in to the ground. Actually the first thing I did was call the city for zoning info. They said there were no regulations for water features. There were regs for pools but not water features or koi ponds. I have looked at many of the ponds here and associated equipment. I'll likely shrink the size of the pond. The idea of starting with a small area that bubbles out of the ground like a well and then gradually flows into a larger pond is probably the best I can do as my yard is so flat but at least I'll have some dirt for yard scaping. The digging will be the easy part since there is a tractor and yes always beers after digging. My yard was a disaster when I moved in as there was decades of concrete and bricks under the ground. The same friend helped me remove 10 tons of concrete. It was a mess. My house is 114yo. Now I'm considering a more narrow pond that starts in that elbow of the bamboo garden and curves around. This could create plenty of water sounds and still look nice. I can still land scape out around it and not have to mow so much. This plan would have me down to around 5,000 gallons which is more affordable as well. thanks again

Oh my. What is a passionate rose lover like you doing in that glacial hell hole? Reading about your endeavors has exhausted me and I haven't even lifted a shovel. I admire your grit and determination, but would love to see you rewarded with thousands of blooms on your rose bushes for all your hard work. I bet they could use engineers in zones 7 to 10!

Actually, the Pbase path in the lower right hand corner is the closest to what I have been imagining -- only with rock edging instead of wood, and fewer stones in the middle. And soil on the surface instead of gravel. So I guess it's not very similar at all, when you think about it. Here is the question then. Let's assume I trash the idea of stone edging, but I still fill in the trench with 5 inches of gravel (and tamp it down) and two inches of sand (and tamp it down). Let's say my stepping stones are laid in a row, usually one at a time, but maybe two at a time for smaller ones. Let's say the stones are 18-24 inches wide and 12-18 inches long, and 3-4 inches thick. Let's say there is a distance of at least one foot on either side of each stone that has a base of gravel and sand. Let's assume I put an inch of soil down around the stones to bring everything to grade, tamp that down and plant moss on it. Is it OK to just let the path abut the garden beds on either side, with nothing in between? Not just aesthetics, which are in the eyes of the be-boulder, but engineering -- I read a lot in my how-to guides about path base materials spilling out onto the garden beds, especially dry laid stone paths. (Sorry, I just can't do the mortar, even subterranean mortar -- maybe this is a prejudice, but I don't want cement in my yard (except the house foundation -- it's ugly, but it seems to work pretty well)). The comments about huge 200 pound stepping stones are fascinating, but I'm not about to attempt anything like that. I've walked on many stepping stone paths and seen many more in books and on web sites, and I would guess that very few of the stones in those paths weigh as much as the people walking on them. I will have to settle (pun?) for less weighty stones and hope that they will find comfortable resting spots. (Those adorably cute little round do-it-yourself stepping stones with amusing little sayings look to be about 12 inches in diameter, if that, yet some people seem to be able to make stepping stone paths with them.) (I didn't say good stepping stone paths.) Finally, if I decide to take your advice and get rid of the edging, what the heck should I do with all these thousands of rocks? Dozens of piles of them all over my tiny 1/8 acre yard just isn't working for me. (I haven't been able to move several of the larger ones out of the 9X8 area I've dug into the slope to make a small patio. It looks like a dinosaur nest.) Thanks for taking the time to ponder these practical and ethereal questions with me, -- wd

Ours starts at 3 feet and stays there for a little while. I wanted them to start at 3, and then have a very slow slope to the deep end. Unfortunately, they made the 3 foot area go out about 5 feet and then start going down. Since our pool is small, it is really too much at that depth. It will be great for grandchildren some day, but for my family, it's not ideal. Most of us spend more time in the middle which runs 3 1/2 to 4 1/2. That's a great play area. We use the deeper area too, but if you have a big pool, make sure you have a little for everyone. Gradual slope does that.